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Snake in the Grass (TURNCOAT)


Tahosa and Sons
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I would like to hear some of your opions concerning a Cacher (??) "Irish Twin" who aparantely works for the Larimer County Parks, CO and she is using this website to inform Cachers to pull their Caches. Some Caches have been given permission and one is a Virtual. The name of my cache is "El Diablo" icon_confused.gif

 

To make matters clearer here is the EMAIL I received from this questionable character!

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Hello again Bushwhacker,

I haven't gotten a response back from you from the first email I sent you about a week ago. This is a follow up message to you inform you that the Department Director for Larimer County Parks and Open Lands has made a decision about geocaching on our properties. At this time we are NOT going to allow the game on any our properties. This may change in the future.

 

What we need from you is to please REMOVE the Devil's Backbone cache from the website as soon as possible.

 

Let me know when you can get this done.

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Actually this is the first and only message that I received, there was no contact previous to this mail.

 

And I wonder how do you remove a Virtual, the waypoints are trail markers that they have installed and it is just a hike down a trail. Are they going to remove their trail markers also?

 

Aug 16 0752 MDT

After some thought and reading some of the posts the problem really is not the Cache, but this organization wants me to remove the Cache from the Website. What about our first ammendment. A reply was mailed to the Director of the Parks now I have to wait and see what he says.

 

The "Bushwhacker"

needs_a_shave.gif

Exitus acta probat

>>--->

 

[This message was edited by Bushwhacker on August 15, 2002 at 03:44 PM.]

 

[This message was edited by Bushwhacker on August 16, 2002 at 06:56 AM.]

 

[This message was edited by Bushwhacker on August 16, 2002 at 06:57 AM.]

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are they caches labeled? do they have this sites url? (i hope they do)

so how elase would they be contacted?

 

is this person using there job with the county parks to kick others out to place caches of their own?

are they or you surprized that unapproved caches are getting kicked? or is this person trying to get rid of all caches? ever approved ones? icon_confused.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by Bushwhacker:

I would like to hear some of your opions concerning a Cacher (??) "Irish Twin" who apparentely works for the Larimer County Parks, CO and he is using this website to inform Cachers to pull their Caches. Some Caches have been given permission and one is a Virtual. icon_confused.gif

 

The "Bushwhacker"

>>--->


 

whack.gif

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i reread your post and what i thought of was:

if i had a cache that needed to be moved, would i prefer to be contacted telling me it needs to be pulled or would i like it to just disappear? (and wonder if the ranger took it, or an animal ate it, etc etc)

 

whack.gif

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if "they" want the cache pulled from our web site, then "they" would have to pull any brochures for the park that mention anything about hiking, or trails, or views etcetc. I can see it now. "Welcome to our park. Hand us $20 and then go home. You are not allowed in to walk or look. It is ours. Thank you for your donation." Seems to me that the park board has a say in whom runs the park. Any geocacher(s) up for getting voted to the park boards???? I would send you a few bucks for your campaign.

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One thing about all of the "this cache has been / needs to be removed" messages is that they always provide a real name, title and contact information. If the messages include that info then I suggest you verify it. If it's real and caches are no longer permitted in the park, remove them.

 

All except the virtual cache, I'd tell them to remove it themselves. icon_wink.gif

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Assuming that this is all legit and on the up and up, I would think that they don't understand what a virtual is, or they do and that's why they didn't contact you on the first round, and this email was a mistake.

 

However, did they include their email address with the message, or are you supposed to respond via the website? If they included an address, does the domain look like it's from somebody official? If they didn't, that would certainly make me suspicious.

 

Even if it was a physical cache, before pulling it I would personally contact the "Department Director for Larimer County Parks and Open Lands" to find out what's up. Even if this person who contactd you does work for this dept, that doesn't mean the Director really made any such decision, or that you couldn't work out a compromise.

 

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Friends don't let friends NOT geocache.

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I thought that the Public Lands belong to the Public, in which These Public Lands exist.Merely we are all just STEWARDS,of the America that we believe in, as you know not all look to a free AMERICA, there are those whom want to control freedom on (their land)? This land is your Land, this Land is my land, From California to the New York Islands The Redwood forest and the Gulf stream waters Stand up AMERICANS this is your heritage..... icon_rolleyes.gificon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gif

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since im part of the public, and the public land is mine, can i go cut down one of those redwoods and drag it home cause its mine and i want it?

 

quote:
Originally posted by Trailblazer # 1:

I thought that the Public Lands belong to the Public, in which These Public Lands exist.Merely we are all just STEWARDS,of the America that we believe in, as you know not all look to a free AMERICA, there are those whom want to control freedom on (their land)? This land is your Land, this Land is my land, From California to the New York Islands The Redwood forest and the Gulf stream waters Stand up AMERICANS this is your heritage..... icon_rolleyes.gificon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gif


 

whack.gif

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I can see them make you pull a real cache, but a virtual? What's the reasoning? There is no "abandoned property" as with a real cache. We can post whatever coordinates we want on this website or in whatever forum. I think it falls under something called the 1st Amendment.

 

Wish I lived out there. I'd put a bunch of virtuals out in that park. Who do they think they are? How are they going to enforce this, arrest anyone they see with a GPS?

 

And in response to the previous poster, nobody's cutting down any redwoods here. I don't think any of us (well most of us) believe that we can use public lands as we please. Cutting trees, dumping and destructive activities of course should be prohibited. But posting a longitude and latitude on a website, to encourage others to check it out?

What's the difference if this was a website for birders and someone posted the coordinates of a place where they're likely to catch a glimpse of a certain bird

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on August 15, 2002 at 06:28 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

I can see them make you pull a real cache, but a virtual?


 

"They" cannot make you pull a virtual - but Jeremy can - lets hope he never succumbs to do this because of unreasonable pressure from any public land manager.

 

You may not agree with what I say, but I will defend, to your death, my right to say it!(it's a Joke, OK!)

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You disabled it? Bah. I'd let them come after my broke *** if they didn't like the idea of my virtual cache being posted online.

 

Especially if the coordinates have the people follow regular trails, visiting places that any other 'regular' person would be hiking on anyway.

 

A standard cache, I'd consider moving - but only if I could verify that it indeed was a park ranger/caretaker that was making the request.

 

I've removed one cache from a park because I got threatned a couple of times - I didn't want to get people all worked up over it, but as for a virtual cache - I can't see how it would be a problem.

 

* going back to read the cache description a little more carefully to see what the fuss is about *

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

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If your a good steward , that means to take care of the land wisely, not for one's own use,abuse, but as the public. These are public activities,enjoyed by hopefuly everyone on this web site!!! Look around people they are closing in, the people who abuse our land. If we dont take care it will be gone forever the beauty that we enjoy , I am tryin to keep my part of the woods clean! I have been seein it commin for a while, most (city folk)excuse my misnomer are just beginning to see what us country folk been sayin for a while.

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Reply to the e-mail by asking for real name, title, and phone number. You could also ask for the name and phone number of his supervisor. If he responds then contact him and his supervisor and discuss geocaching with them.

 

My bet is you won't get a response. No response, figure he's a troll and let it go.

 

Byron

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Your cache is basically a hiking trail published with geo-coordinates rather than a quad map with dashed lines. Hikers' trails are more and more being published with GPS coordinates.

 

Although I see this as a silly request by an uninformed beaurocrat, I understand your concern about getting sued. Maybe one of the posters above would voluteer to re-post the cache under their name from a different state. One could only imagine what interstate laws they could be charges with violating?!?

 

Let's see...interstate transportation of illegal geocoordinates for the purpose of creating social trails not sanctioned by congress.

 

Alan

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Your statement that this land manager is a snake in the grass for doing his job and enforcing the regulations is grossly unfair. The fact that he enjoys geocaching himself does not give him the right to ignore regulations, or rulings from above, and turn a blind eye to violations of land use policy. At least he had the courtesy to inform you and ask that it be removed. If we are talking about a virtual cache, which was not my impression, where nothing was deposited on public land, that would be a different story.

 

I was working with land managers and rangers yesterday fighting a wild fire, and I brought up the topic of Geocaches. The DEC ranger said that he looks on the internet for caches in land on his territory and removes them if he can find them, and he does not tell the "Owner", he looks upon the cache as litter.

 

The park surpervisor laughed that someone even had the nerve to ask for permission to place a cache in his park, and they had ignored the request. I did not tell him that I had placed five caches in his territory, nor am I naive enough to think that I am going to get permission to place items in the woods that are clearly against land use regulations. He had not the zealousness of the ranger, or I expect the navigation and GPS skill, to go out and check if the cache had been placed. It had been placed, on a trail I maintain in that park, I went out and checked it out the day after it was posted, but of course I did not remove it, but rather attempted to hide it better.

 

As a volunteer, I do not feel bound to enforce land use regulations with which I disagree. But I cannot accept the notion that these hard working, under paid individuals who dedicate their lives to protecting the public lands are "Snakes In the Grass" because they do their duty as they see it. As a conservationist as well as a Geocacher, I have respect for the DEC Ranger who has the dedication to go out and try and enforce the rules, though I may wish for the rules to be changed and hope that he doesn't find any of my caches. If he does, I will not engage in any personal attacks upon him, just try and outwit him with my next cache.

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Jonboy, if you read the original post, the cache in question was a virtual and supposedly some others were place with permission.

 

This sounds very similar to the recent posts from JayCookeStaff in the midwest forum. In his posts he claimed to be a park employee who had removed illegal caches in his park. He also e-mailed at least one cache owner making the same claim. He ended the e-mails and posts with the line "if you don't like it tough, its the law and we will enforce it".

 

That final line ticked off a lot of Geocachers and some complained to the park supervisor. It was my feeling that the guy was a troll because his posts sounded like they were written by a 15 year old in need of a remedial English course. Also at least one cache was found after it was supposedly removed.

 

I wonder if something similar is going on here. Just a busybody with too much time on his hands, or someone out on a fishing trip.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Kelle

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quote:
Originally posted by jonboy:

Your statement that this land manager is a snake in the grass for doing his job and enforcing the regulations is grossly unfair.


 

If the land manager wants it removed why didn’t he provide his name and contact info? I would think that would be common courtesy on his part especially if they are "enforcing the regulations". Makes me think this person is a self appointed GeoCOP. I would also look into making direct contact with this land manager and explain a virtual cache.

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It was the vitriol that upset me in this exchange. It would seem that this land manager is exceeding his authority in trying to dictate what may or may not be posted on the internet. I would simply tell him so, and tell him that his authority ends at the boundaries of the land he manages. If he thinks he has the right to stop people taking GPS readings in his park, let him try and do so, and see who ends up losing in court.

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quote:
Originally posted by jonboy:

It was the virtual that upset me in this exchange. It would seem that this land manager is exceeding his authority in trying to dictate what may or may not be posted on the internet.


 

That is what exactly ticked me off!! So I wrote the Director of Parks, and he hasn't had the courtesy to answer by 4:00. So the Cache has been activated, so others can take a pleasant hike in an open space. icon_razz.gif

 

Time to see if we really have aFIRST AMMENDMENT

 

The "Bushwhacker"

needs_a_shave.gif

Exitus acta probat

>>--->

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Way to go. Now hopefully we can get the cacher who was asked to remove a virtual cache in a Natonal Park to reactivate his (see http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=1500975035

 

This is a freedom of speech issue and we shouldn't be bullied into pulling virtual caches unless there is some real danger involved.

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on August 18, 2002 at 06:08 AM.]

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