Virtuals on NPS lands?

1.3k · March 2, 2003

This question has probably been asked and answered before but I don't see a thread about it so here goes:

Is it ok to place a virtual cache on US National Park Service maintained land?

I am curious about that.

Also, if you think there is a a cache (wether traditional, virtual, or micro) somewhere it shouldn't be - what should you do?

SD

7.2k · March 2, 2003

Virtuals on NPS land are OK, but please follow the guidelines regarding cache placement. If in doubt, post your idea here or email the geocaching contact us email account.

For a cache that you feel should not be in a particular location you have two options. One is to log the cache and select "cache should be archived" in the What type of log? section of the log a cache page. A note will be sent to GC.com and they will review it. The other option is to email your concerns to the contact address directly so a note will not be placed on the cache page (anonymous method).

1.3k · March 2, 2003

Thanks, I was wondering. It doesn't clearly say that it is ok to place a virtual in those places in the section about making your first cache. I may have misread it but from what I can tell it says 'No caches on NPS land' and in the virtual cache section it doesnt list that as an exception.

I am not sure if the caches I am curious about are in the wrong place. I saw some new caches near me and I know the area they are in. There is a rather spread out NP there and the caches may not be on NPS land, but on city land. I will look at the caches some more and if I am still curious I will email the cache-placer first.

Thanks

SD

1.2k · March 3, 2003

Just curious is all, it seems like a terrific waste of time to worry about inappropriately placed "virtual" cache. The point of a virtual cache is that it is "virtual", not a real cache. That is the reason for virtual caches in the first place, to have a waypoint for a location where a traditional cache is not allowed or not appropriate.

Rather than worry about whether or not a virtual cache should be on NP land, worry about the traditional caches that are placed without permission all over the place and cause real problems, not imaginary ones.

But, I could be wrong....LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

March 4, 2003

Virtual caches may still lead some to hike off-path in ecologically sensitive areas, or near archaeolgically important sites. If I saw a virtual that I thought was inappropriate for these reasons, I would ask the owner (nicely )to move/remove it.

When I first read the thread, the thought came to mind of someone setting a waypoint on the Rim of the Grand Canyon (*not* along the fenced touristy areas) on a whim, creating it as a virtual cache, and some poor cacher intent on the screen walking over the edge because his GPSr says it's still 30' away....

I walk the Maze of Moments, but everywhere I turn to, begins a new beginning, but never finds a finish... -Enya, Anywhere Is

March 4, 2003

Well I was hoping to put a virtual cache out in the wonderland of rocks in the Joshua Tree National Park.

I was also going to try and make it a 5/5 requiring a couple hour hike and a climb at the end to get to the spot I have in mind.

Is this appropriate? Will I be causing more traffic in a day use area only? Only climbers need apply though so that should cut down on the traffic, right?

Oh, well, I've had my gps now for 2 days, I gots to go out and find somethin' now.

miker

Soar, eat ether, see what has never been seen; depart, be lost, but climb.-Edna St. Vincent Millay, poet

1.2k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel Nut:
Virtual caches may still lead some to hike off-path in ecologically sensitive areas, or near archaeolgically important sites. If I saw a virtual that I thought was inappropriate for these reasons, I would ask the owner (nicely )to move/remove it.

Understood, but the point of the thread was inappropriate as in "on NPS land" not inappropriate as in "on the edge of a canyon" so it is a little different.

I agree completely with your definition of inappropriate in that instance, but not with the fact that a virtual is "inappropriate" just because it is anywhere on NPS lands or parks. The main reason people list virtuals on such lands is the total ban on traditional physical caches. We've just had too many instances where semi-officials and even those in our own ranks seem to think a virtual cache is the same as a physical cache. That's like saying a Toyota is the same as the thought of a Toyota. Both are a Toyota, but one is real and physical, and the other simply exists because you think it exists. So telling me to "remove" a virtual cache is like my telling you to not think of naked women.

Or something like that...LOL.

All caches should follow the common sense rule first and foremost, and the GeoCaching rules immediately thereafter. Even if the Geocaching rules say it is fine, if it doesn't pass the smell test, don't do it!! Otherwise, we should NOT second guess each other all the darn time, it's becoming epidemic lately.

Oh well, I could be wrong.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

24.7k · March 4, 2003

Since we pay park rangers good money to build parks and tell us to stay on the trail. Virtual caches should at least stay on the trail. Meaning respect the rules of the park you are placing the virtual at.

Wherever you go there you are.

1.3k · March 4, 2003

Surely if my asking this question was a waste of time then this:

quote:
You're kidding us, right????

was an even bigger waste of time.

I had a legitimate question. If I'd known the answer I wouldn't have asked.

The rules say no caches on NPS land. It does not say specifically that "Virtual" caches are ok. I just wanted some clarification. If the official rules page says anything about it I would appreciate it if somebody could show me. Actually this isn't necessary since somebody already answered my question.

I don't see why it would be, but I would like to know if it is against geocaching rules and/or etiquette.

Forgive me for being new, ignorant, and a time waster .

SouthDeltan

March 4, 2003

quote:
The rules say no caches on NPS land. It does not say specifically that "Virtual" caches are ok. I just wanted some clarification. If the official rules page says anything about it I would appreciate it if somebody could show me. Actually this isn't necessary since somebody already answered my question.

I don't see why it would be, but I would like to know if it is against geocaching rules and/or etiquette.

SouthDeltan

The NPS bans caches on the lands they manage. Geocaching.com presumes that means physical ones; there are any number of virtual caches in national parks available on the website.

Ron/yumitori

1.2k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by South Deltan:
Surely if my asking this question was a waste of time then this:

quote:
You're kidding us, right????

was an even bigger waste of time.

I had a legitimate question. If I'd known the answer I wouldn't have asked.

The rules say no caches on NPS land. It does not say specifically that "Virtual" caches are ok. I just wanted some clarification. If the official rules page says anything about it I would appreciate it if somebody could show me. Actually this isn't necessary since somebody already answered my question.

I don't see why it would be, but I would like to know if it is against geocaching rules and/or etiquette.

Forgive me for being new, ignorant, and a time waster .

SouthDeltan

Okay, have to admit you fooled me then with your original post, where you asked about caches you thought might be in places where you thought they shouldn't be, but at the same time you now state you are "new" to the activity. Can't have it both ways...LOL. If you're new and didn't know, my apologies, I did not intend to impune your integrity or to say that you are wasting "our" time, only that you might not waste "your" time worrying about it as it has been cussed and discussed in the forums over and over and over ad nauseum to the point where there is a growing sensitivity about someone questioning the placement of virtual caches. Nothing personal was meant, and I hope you will forgive my initial response.

On the other hand, are the caches you mentioned in your original post causing a problem somewhere, and if so, what is happening? Many times bad placement does cause a bad name for Geocaching in general and there is nothing wrong with checking with the original cache placer to get more info. If that doesn't work then contact one of the admins who approve caches and get some feedback from them, they are very helpful and have more knowledge about what the trends are on what's acceptable and what's not.

Other than that, welcome and allow me to back up a few steps and punt...

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

2.5k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by yumitori:
The NPS bans caches on the lands they manage. Geocaching.com presumes that means physical ones; there are any number of virtual caches in national parks available on the website.

If you live in the State of Washington there are physical caches like this one and this one that are on NPS land. Both are traditional caches.

7.2k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:
If you live in the State of Washington there are physical caches like http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=5432 and http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=5301 that are on NPS land. Both are traditional caches.

Great point cachew nut! I had a cache on NPS land for almost two years. They just recently asked that it be removed as they are doing trail reconstruction. Ask for permission! All they can say is no. They might even say yes!!!

1.3k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Okay, have to admit you fooled me then with your original post, where you asked about caches you thought might be in places where you thought they shouldn't be, but at the same time you now state you are "new" to the activity. Can't have it both ways...LOL.

I'm sorry if I am defensive, I assume you think I'm some kind of "troll" or whatever - but this statement isn't necessarily true. Just because someone is new doesn't mean they can't be aware of the big picture. I have been visiting this site less than a month. I do not yet own a GPS but will have one by the end of this month. I have found some benchmarks with the use of maps/etc so far. I have been keeping up with what caches are in my area and getting to know some of the local cachers by using these forums.

quote:
Many times bad placement does cause a bad name for Geocaching in general and there is nothing wrong with checking with the original cache placer to get more info.

That's the reason I'm asking. I saw some caches come up that might be on NPS land. I don't want to approach the cacher at this point because they may not be on NPS land and I don't want to piss local cachers off by accusing them of something they haven't done. All I asked was a simple question - was virtual caches on NPS lands ok? That's been answered. I am very excited about this and have several friends interested. The community in my state is apparantly fairly small but growing explosively and I'd hate for a poorly placed cache give geocaching a bad name - first impressions are often the only ones that matter.

I personally don't see why anybody would not want something that helped bring more tourists to an area. I would assume (but I may be wrong) that most virtuals are environmentally less problematic than traditional caches.

SouthDeltan

1.2k · March 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by South Deltan:

I'm sorry if I am defensive, I assume you think I'm some kind of "troll" or whatever - but this statement isn't necessarily true. Just because someone is new doesn't mean they can't be aware of the big picture. I have been visiting this site less than a month. I do not yet own a GPS but will have one by the end of this month. I have found some benchmarks with the use of maps/etc so far. I have been keeping up with what caches are in my area and getting to know some of the local cachers by using these forums.

That's the reason I'm asking. I saw some caches come up that might be on NPS land. I don't want to approach the cacher at this point because they may not be on NPS land and I don't want to piss local cachers off by accusing them of something they haven't done. All I asked was a simple question - was virtual caches on NPS lands ok? That's been answered. I am very excited about this and have several friends interested. The community in my state is apparantly fairly small but growing explosively and I'd hate for a poorly placed cache give geocaching a bad name - first impressions are often the only ones that matter.

I personally don't see why anybody would not want something that helped bring more tourists to an area. I would assume (but I may be wrong) that most virtuals are environmentally less problematic than traditional caches.

SouthDeltan

Of course the troll scenario is always a possibility, we live with that, but we do watch for the tell-tale signs. One of the signs is usually not having a GPS, being new, etc...LOL, just kidding.

It has been interesting to see how different park managers and agencies react to Geocaching, especially when they have had very little, or sometimes absolutely no exposure to it. They go by stories told by other park systems, or even "urban myth" type tales that tell of huge environmental damage done by a tupperware bowl and some mctoys, all visited by about 20 people in a years time. It just sticks in my craw now and then when I've seen so much more damage done by the regular activities that are perfectly legal in the park systems. It's hard sometimes to remain dedicated to the "cache in - trash out" mantra when we're being trashed ourselves.

However, we continue to try, continue to strive, to make this the best little hobby out there. My kids and I love it and will continue to participate. You will find there are several semi-cliques within our community, some of whom will bristle when their favorite type of cache is badmouthed, and will cheer when their least favorite is denigrated, and that's life in general. Everyone does try to keep it civil (okay, maybe not EVERYBODY...LOL) and have a civil, constructive discussion about most issues.

I hunted several virtual caches in Yellowstone National Park this past summer, along with quite a few between Houston and there, and on the way back. I truly enjoyed the virtuals and wound up placing one there myself, it was just too good to pass up. I also created one at the Little Bighorn Battlefield Monument, several forts in Florida, and the Sabine Battlefield Park in Texas. You'll find they are well received and appropriate for the site they are in. Many of them are on NPS land, but they are on areas where the public is welcome, there is no need to go off trails, and no damage is done that won't be done by normal everyday use by those that have never even heard of Geocaching. That's the neat thing about virtuals, they usually just take advantage of already existing physical locations.

So, just a thought, head on out and find a few and see what you think, I believe you'll enjoy them and see them for what they are. Oh, and don't forget to hit a few traditional physical caches while you're out, heaven knows we can all use some more mctoys...LOL.

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

March 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by cachew nut:

If you live in the State of Washington there are physical caches like http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=5432 and http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=5301 that are on NPS land. Both are traditional caches.

From the tutorial on hiding caches -

"If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there! If you place the cache on public lands you need to contact the managing agency to find out about their rules. You will be in violation of federal regulation by placing a cache in any area administered by the National Park Service (US). The National Park regulations are intended to protect the fragile environment, and historical and cultural areas found in the parks."

So could someone explain how these came into being?

Ron/yumitori

7.4k · March 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by yumitori:
So could someone explain how these came into being?

Those caches were posted in the summer of 2001, well before geocaching was on the NPS radar (and thus before the NPS had rules against geocaching). These caches are grandfathered in until such time as the NPS or the cache owners see fit to remove them.

March 5, 2003

Doesn't anyone remember the trouble about the Virual in Az. at the Rock Art Center?

rocker51

Virtuals on NPS lands?

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