i'm curious....

January 24, 2003

what if i know of a cache that is somewhere it shouldn't be (even though it got approved) - after i have emailed the cache owner and gotten a reponse from them (stating they will not pull the cache) what are my next steps?

(preferably without ticking anyone off, but i understand there's not much way around that)

jenn

9.1k · January 24, 2003

You can post a log to the cache page using the "cache should be archived" option. In your log, which will be read by the site administrators, you should recite your facts (cache is near active railroad tracks, cache is past "no trespassing" signs, etc.) as well as your contact with the cache owner.

If you don't want to be public about it, you can just send an e-mail to the general site address, contact at geocaching dot com. But of course, you're already public about it.

Please think hard before asking that someone's active cache should be archived. It must clearly violate one of the rules, rather than just being in an ugly spot, too hard to find, etc.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

3.1k · January 24, 2003

If you are certain it's against geocaching policy then I'd contact geocaching next. But be certain. I had two newbies (I know you aren't) request archiving because they personally didn't approve of my cache. One felt it was too public and another felt it was dangerous because he saw a couple of broken bottles in the unimproved park I hid it in.

If geocaching doesn't want anything done, then it's out of your hands. What is the problem with this particular cache?

I hear voices.....and they don't like you!

5.9k · January 24, 2003

As above, or you can mind your own business. I prefer the latter, many cannot bring themselves to do that however.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

January 24, 2003

As Criminal said: or you can mind your on business. If he did that the forums would sure be a better place instead of just posting to say nothing. I think its up to all of us to help out, when a cache is in a bad place, or in any off limits area . Go ahead and contact geocaching about it. …………JOE

1.1k · January 24, 2003

If it is in an area that isn't proper, it should be removed (and for heaven't sake I don't want it listed on the site). Let us know about it and the reason why it should be removed.

You should only take the Libertarian approach ("mind your own business") if it doesn't affect anyone in a negative way. If it is in a place where someone a) could get arrested or put into an obvious danger, it is proper to take action.

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

2.6k · January 24, 2003

Can we see which cache it is?

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

5.9k · January 24, 2003

The last "improper" cache discussed was determined to be anything but.

Insufficient data. There seems to be a default position by many to stick their nose in where it doesn't belong. Dangerous? Fine, say something. You don't think it's properly placed? Get more info, lots more, before you piss off your fellow local cachers. I would think you (jeremy) would have enough to do without having to filter though supposedly improper caches. It's all too relative. What I might consider a cool and exciting cache another might try to archive. All we know about this one is that the owner was contacted and isn't going to remove it. So they think it's proper.

I just default in a different direction I guess.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

January 24, 2003

thank you to all who posted responses.

why did i post this publicly?

I wanted to get several opinions before i acted and decided this would be the best way to do so, however, i did not want to openly burn the cache owner and ruin caching for him/her right from the beginning. - that is why there isn't a lot of information about this cache on the site.

other posters have asked what is wrong with this cache? this cache is placed on an area and type of land where geocaching is currently restricted per the kentucky state nature preserves commission until further notice. while i will be the first to point out that while the cache owner did not know about this ban (at least i hope not), he/she was contacted by us and asked very nicely to think about removing the cache due to the delicate nature of the relationship that our geocaching group has with the governing body. i have that email if anyone is interested in reading it. i also have the owners response (which i have elected not to post) where he/she explains that since there is another cache nearby in the same area it must be okay, and they suggested we go to a 'state sponsered organziation' to get the answers to our questions. in the original contact letter, we posted our website and made mention of the restriction of placing caches on nature preserves: the following is available for anyone to read on our website: http://www.geocky.org.

Important Notice regarding Caches in State Nature Preserves

Recently, there was an incident involving a cache in the Pilot Knob State Nature Preserve. The cache was placed in the Preserve without the permission of the Kentucky State Nature Preserves Commission.

Additionally, the description of the Cache encouraged use of a shortcut, which involved entering a closed, unsafe trail on this property. The use of this closed trail endangered the safety of both visitors and the ecosystem.

The person placing the Cache was unaware of the land management rules surrounding State Nature Preserves, and made an honest mistake. However, the placement of the Cache without permission, and especially the instruction to use a closed trail, has caused a great deal of understandable concern on the part of the State Nature Preserves Commission. As a result, the Commission asked Groundspeak to archive the cache.

GEOCKY has contacted Joyce Bender of the Commission to better understand this issue, and to see how we can help. The Commission is willing to meet with GEOCKY to discuss this issue, and to see if there is some way we can reintroduce GeoCaching into the State Nature Preserve system. For the time being, GeoCaching is not allowed in State Nature Preserves.

We will be working with the Commission to hopefully reintroduce Caching into the State Nature Preserve system. In order to be successful, we need to prove to the Commission that GeoCaching does not represent a threat to the land under their protection - this starts with proving that we can comply with their decisions.

GEOCKY joins with the State Nature Preserves Commission in requesting that no caches be placed on any Kentucky State Nature Preserve until further notice. GEOCKY urges all GeoCachers to please abide by this request. This includes virtual caches as well as traditional caches and micros.

Preserves are public land set aside primarily for conservation purposes, and are not primarily recreational areas like State Parks. The primary mission of the Commission is to protect the flora and fauna within these Preserves, and this land must be used with care and respect, and in accordance with the policies of the Commission.

Again, please do not place caches of any kind in any Kentucky State Nature Preserve until further notice.

we are going to email the cache owner one more time with a detailed explanation of why we are suggesting this along with the information about about the restriction of caches on nature preserves. at this point, i think, all we can do is know that we have done our best.

what we are working towards is a geocaching-happy state to work with. for those that have been around the forums for a few months, certainly you remember the pilots knob cache where the ksnpc went straight to geocaching.com and not to the cache owners, resulting in the cache being autmatically archived and the cache itself was taken by the ksnpc. we don't want this to happen again! we don't want to ruin geocaching for anyone else (least of all ourselves) and are taking the steps to thwart any negative reactions and responses from the kentucky state nature preserve commision as well as any other agencies that will soon become involved.

please understand this is not some ploy to simply cause problems, we are trying to react and act in a manner in which we can work WITH governing bodies and not against them.

January 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by the white diamond pirates:
thank you to all who posted responses.

why did i post this publicly?

I wanted to get several opinions before i acted and decided this would be the best way to do so, however, i did not want to openly burn the cache owner and ruin caching for him/her right from the beginning. - that is why there isn't a lot of information about this cache on the site.

other posters have asked what is wrong with this cache? this cache is placed on an area and type of land where geocaching is currently restricted per the kentucky state nature preserves commission until further notice. while i will be the first to point out that while the cache owner did not know about this ban (at least i hope not), he/she was contacted by us and asked very nicely to think about removing the cache due to the delicate nature of the relationship that our geocaching group has with the governing body. i have that email if anyone is interested in reading it. i also have the owners response (which i have elected not to post) where he/she explains that since there is another cache nearby in the same area it must be okay, and they suggested we go to a 'state sponsered organziation' to get the answers to our questions. in the original contact letter, we posted our website and made mention of the restriction of placing caches on nature preserves: the following is available for anyone to read on our website: http://www.geocky.org.

Important Notice regarding Caches in State Nature Preserves

Recently, there was an incident involving a cache in the Pilot Knob State Nature Preserve. The cache was placed in the Preserve without the permission of the Kentucky State Nature Preserves Commission.

Additionally, the description of the Cache encouraged use of a shortcut, which involved entering a closed, unsafe trail on this property. The use of this closed trail endangered the safety of both visitors and the ecosystem.

The person placing the Cache was unaware of the land management rules surrounding State Nature Preserves, and made an honest mistake. However, the placement of the Cache without permission, and especially the instruction to use a closed trail, has caused a great deal of understandable concern on the part of the State Nature Preserves Commission. As a result, the Commission asked Groundspeak to archive the cache.

GEOCKY has contacted Joyce Bender of the Commission to better understand this issue, and to see how we can help. The Commission is willing to meet with GEOCKY to discuss this issue, and to see if there is some way we can reintroduce GeoCaching into the State Nature Preserve system. For the time being, GeoCaching is not allowed in State Nature Preserves.

We will be working with the Commission to hopefully reintroduce Caching into the State Nature Preserve system. In order to be successful, we need to prove to the Commission that GeoCaching does not represent a threat to the land under their protection - this starts with proving that we can comply with their decisions.

GEOCKY joins with the State Nature Preserves Commission in requesting that no caches be placed on any Kentucky State Nature Preserve until further notice. GEOCKY urges all GeoCachers to please abide by this request. This includes virtual caches as well as traditional caches and micros.

Preserves are public land set aside primarily for conservation purposes, and are not primarily recreational areas like State Parks. The primary mission of the Commission is to protect the flora and fauna within these Preserves, and this land must be used with care and respect, and in accordance with the policies of the Commission.

Again, please do not place caches of any kind in any Kentucky State Nature Preserve until further notice.

we are going to email the cache owner one more time with a detailed explanation of why we are suggesting this along with the information about about the restriction of caches on nature preserves. at this point, i think, all we can do is know that we have done our best.

what we are working towards is a geocaching-happy state to work with. for those that have been around the forums for a few months, certainly you remember the pilots knob cache where the ksnpc went straight to geocaching.com and not to the cache owners, resulting in the cache being autmatically archived and the cache itself was taken by the ksnpc. we don't want this to happen again! we don't want to ruin geocaching for anyone else (least of all ourselves) and are taking the steps to thwart any negative reactions and responses from the kentucky state nature preserve commision as well as any other agencies that will soon become involved.

please understand this is not some ploy to simply cause problems, we are trying to react and act in a manner in which we can work WITH governing bodies and not against them.

I hope you get your Boy Scout badge for this!!! j/k

January 24, 2003

what we're hoping for is to work out a peaceful co-existance between ky geocachers and the city, state and national parks in the state.

that, apparantly, is a lot to hope for.

9.1k · January 24, 2003

White Diamond Pirates -

That's certainly a good reason to suggest that a geocache be removed. When a public land manager requests that there should be no geocaches in a protected area, I believe that's the end of the debate, until your group works out some guidelines. I am working on the same sort of project here in Pennsylvania.

Many folks operate on the principle that, if a public park or other property does not expressly prohibit geocaching, then it's OK to place a cache there. I've followed that line myself for some of the caches I've placed, but I would NOT place a cache or keep an existing cache in a State Park without permission. I would hope that everyone could agree that, once the land manager announces that caches are not allowed in a particular location, the "presumption of permission" (if it ever existed) no longer holds true.

By writing to the cache hider and making him or her aware of the Kentucky policy, you are taking a more polite approach than those who simply swoop into the woods and pick up the caches. But be careful not to turn yourself into a deputy forest ranger. Ultimately, the State can send a simple e-mail to Jeremy and the cache could be archived forthwith. It's their policy, not yours. You're trying to get to the end result (compliance with the policy and good relations with the land manager) in a kinder and gentler way.

GOOD LUCK with your work to develop a responsible geocaching policy for the Kentucky Nature Preserves.

Criminal -

You come out a bit more on the libertarian side of the line when it comes to permission. But you'll see from what I wrote above that, to some extent, I agree with you. More importantly, I respect both your right to hold the opinions that you do, and that you have the cojones to express them in the forums. For me, your posts always make for interesting reading and thought.

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

If there's no accounting for stupidity, then why do I need to file a tax return?

6.4k · January 24, 2003

You can always tell when Lep is posting from work and from home!

Well worded Lep, hope you get made a senior partner for that one!

Tae-Kwon-Leap is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

January 24, 2003

There seems to be two extremes regarding appropriateness of existing caches

Either:

a) We have to worry about our reputation as an activity and be sure nobody gets hurt because of a cache or else more places will prohibit geocaching. So let's do something (post, email, whatever) whenever we are unsure whether a cache is appropriate

or:

leave all caches unquestioned (especially those that you don't go to yourself) and don't waste space on the forums with questions about their appropriateness unless you are really, really certain that a cache is dangerous or in a prohibited area

It's just my opinion, but I don't think either extreme is the best way. Jeremy, do you have any time/interest in adding "What should I do if I'm concerned about the safety or placement of a cache?" to the FAQ?

5.9k · January 24, 2003

I'm in the middle then.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

2.6k · January 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by hoovman:
There seems to be two extremes regarding appropriateness of existing caches

There have been a few famous discussion on the board about appropriate caches.

One cache was brought to the attention of the forum as being dagerous and illegal because required stopping on the freeway. It turned out NOT to be the case.

A more recent cache was seen as dangerous because it was under a cattleguard near a coutry road. Many of the objections that that cache come from people who had never been to the cache. From the people who had gone to the cache only one person thought it was dangerous.

Then there was another cache recently that wasn't dangerous but one cacher thought it was too ambiguous and they should claim the find simply because they tried. That cache ended up archived.

Each one of these I personally dealt with on a case by case bases. It's fine if you want to bring up a cache that you think is questionable but just beause you think it's questionable it doesn't mean everyone has to agree.

I had no problem with those previous three caches, and I fall under the leave it alone if it's not hurting anyone category. But this cache does sound like it may need to be removed. I say maybe because I just don't know all the details and I haven't heard the hiders points yet.

george

Pedal until your legs cramp up and then pedal some more.

January 24, 2003

I think the White Diamond Pirates and the KY Club are trying to DO (not talk about ) the right thing for the right Reasons ……………….JOE

24.7k · January 24, 2003

Why don't you let the park people take care of the problem? That's their job and it's also their job to determine of the land is of the type that concerns them. It's not your job to determine (regarless of your botanical ability) the sensitivity of the location. If they have a goecaching policy and have determined that trails are evil then they know how to check their parks periodically on geocaching.com and keep up with things.

Ask yourself if you have any acutal authority in this situatio? If you don't, then you are done when you discretely alert the park to the cache's existance and then you fade into the woodwork. I work in a business where people with no authority and no real information to back up their opinions screw up projects and make them cost more and less safe. In my biz. less safe means more people die.

Wherever you go there you are.

January 24, 2003

It's pretty obvious that what the pirates are trying to do is broker a relationship with the governing authorities.

They are showing those authorities that they, GEOCKY, are as concerned about an improper placement as the authorities are. This, in turn, lets the authorities know that the geocaching community is also concerned. This will come to benefit GEOCKY and the rest of us in the future.

Bravo. Keep up the good work.

The only thing I would add is this -- Be absolutely sure of your facts. Visit the cache personally.

geospotter

January 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
Why don't you let the park people take care of the problem? ...

You make a good point there. Unfortunately, the story goes a little deeper. GeoCaching is already under serious threat in the State Preserve system because of the Pilot Knob incident, and we are currently trying to work with them to MAYBE negotiate terms under which GeoCaching can be re-introduced into the Preserve system (and the Preserve Assocation is also talking to not only the State Park officials, but our local Fayette government as well).

So, we feel that, for the moment, we kind of have to be policing these caches to show that we are serious about working with them. It is a tough balance, because we don't want to come across as the Gestapo, but we also are in the middle of some very delicate relationship and trust building with the various official groups.

Believe me, some days we wish we didn't get involved in this, especially when we have to act like jerks and ask someone to please remove a cache - I know how I would feel in their place, and we understand that people who place these caches are NOT doing so maliciously, but out of a lack of information about the policies surrounding State Preserves.

But if we don't act, the Preserve system (which represents a significant number of sites in Kentucky) will remain closed to Caching, and the State Parks (and even possibly the local park authorities) may reconsider their current "neutral" stance.

Our goal is to help develop clear rules and/or clear permission to GeoCache in the state. As with many states recently, the concept of GeoCaching represents a certain level of threat to Park and Preserve rangers, and we need to show that we can act as responsible users of the Park/Preserve system.

Regards,

- Nate Hoy (webmaster, www.geocky.org)

January 24, 2003

quote:
They are showing those authorities that they, GEOCKY, are as concerned about an improper placement as the authorities are. This, in turn, lets the authorities know that the geocaching community is also concerned. This will come to benefit GEOCKY and the rest of us in the future.

Yup. That's pretty much the plan.

quote:
Bravo. Keep up the good work.

Thanks.

quote:
The only thing I would add is this -- Be absolutely sure of your facts. Visit the cache personally.

Where there is any ambiguity, we certainly plan on it. We have only had to do this once so far, and hope never to have to do it again. The person placing the cache seems to have deleted their cache and their profile, which is a shame - our intent is NOT to drive people away from caching and we are all saddened to think that our request might have driven the guy away.

We debated among the group very hard before deciding to contact the cacher directly to inform him of the ban and ask him to remove it (because we wanted to keep it as low-key and informal as possible, without getting Groundspeak and/or the Preserve officials coming down on him).

We still don't know if we did the right thing, except that we all feel that doing nothing would have done harm to our case with the State.

January 25, 2003

Hello all. First mate Dr.Lucky here. Using Jenn's account since I've always been more of a side-kick in the cacheing rather than a full participator. That disclaimer aside...

Thank you Hoys, for being able to sum this issue up as neutrally as possible. I wonder if its so hard to see that this issue is not about this person, or this person's cache. It's about diplomacy, and how to ensure that geocachers as a body (not as individuals) are able to enjoy cacheing in the state of Kentucky. Not only in Kentucky's state nature preserves, but on ANY Kentucky land that is in anyway affiliated with Kentucky's government as a whole. Just to keep a running tally, thats city parks, state parks, nature preserves...all of it. All the public places that are owned by 'we the people'.

What that realy means is that we aren't going to let one person with little documented experience in cacheing throw a wrench in this thing. Not without a few, polite protestations. AND BELIEVE ME YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN POLITE! Much more polite than I could have been after the more than mildly anoying discussion that has been going on.

Oh yes...my point. My point is that cacheing is a hobby, and as such has no special rights attached to its practice, or its practioners. As a grass-roots type of thing it is imperative that the practioners of this hobby facilitate the education of the public, government, and anyone else who is curious about this thing. If they want to know, we should make our best effort to represent Geocacheing in a manner that benefits ALL, not one.

Let me be clear...I do not advocate the creation of a Cacheing Spetznatz. There should never, ever have been a question about who should be telling whom about how to do what. When you log on at Groundspeak you agree to do things by their posted rules. You click a little box saying that you waive your right as a free individual in order to be able to use Groundspeak's resources and be even a little loosely affiliated with their name and their community. So you sign the dotted line, and you give up a little personal freedom for a good time.

I'm about to jump track again, so I'll try to sum up my long-winded opinion...

Basically, there SHOULD be a few resonable folks who SHOULD make resonable requests to try and achieve the greater goal of victory for the cacheing community...even if it means that they have to feel like heels for asking an individual or two to live up to the commitment that they made to Groundspeak and the cacheing community as a whole by being resonable too.

-Bryan

aka Dr.Lucky, firstmate of the White Diamond Pirates, and general cache-bag schleper.

i'm curious....

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