Would you "rat" on a geocache rule-breaker?

[+Moosiegirl]

pursuant to reading the "screwing it up for everybody!" thread (http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=4290959035), I would like to hear your opinion on "turning in" caches (to geocaching.com) that you are 100% certain are breaking local laws/policies, for example we are prohibited from placing caches in local preserves, but parks are OK. I have my suspicions about some caches and wonder if I should request they be archived, once I'm 100% sure? What do you think?

 

I myself would be mortified if I found I'd done anything to give geocaching a black eye.

 

Candy (moosiegirl)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CentralTexasGeocachers/

[skydiver]

I think this kind of thing should be a two step process.

• First, politely contact the cacher who placed the cache with your concerns.
• Second, if the first didn't yeild satisfactory results, contact geocaching.com with your concerns.

 

I don't think caches that are illegally placed should stay, and since there is no way for Jeremy to check on every single cache to make sure it's legal or appropriate, we all have to look after each other, which makes us all the cache police.

 

I also think this sort of thing should be discussed in the forums, BUT pointing out specific caches here before giving the owner of the cache a chance to do anything about it is weak, IMHO.

It could be that, at the time the cache was placed it was ok to put one there, OR the placer honestly didn't see/know of and signs or regulations making it a bad spot. Give them a fair chance to correct the problem or point out that it IS in fact ok for that cache to be there and hunted (i.e. they have secial permission, or you misunderstood the regulations, etc).

 

---------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends NOT geocache.

---------------------------------------

[+EliJoMikMiNi]

Do you really think we need to police the caches? If the administrators are not checking to see if they are legal why would you want to take on the job?

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

Vince Lombarde

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

I think this kind of thing should be a two step process.

+ First, politely contact the cacher who placed the cache with your concerns.+ Second, if the first didn't yeild satisfactory results, contact geocaching.com with your concerns.

 

---------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends NOT geocache.

---------------------------------------

---

i agree with skydiver.

 

just make sure that when you contact the cache owner/placer that you are polite. they may not know of local rules about where to place caches and simply pointing out the possiable mistake could get it corrected. if you get no reply (wait at LEAST one week)or determine this person knows and doesnt care/won't correct the problem, then request it be archived.

 

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

I think this kind of thing should be a two step process.

+ First, politely contact the cacher who placed the cache with your concerns.+ Second, if the first didn't yeild satisfactory results, contact geocaching.com with your concerns.

 

---------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends NOT geocache.

---------------------------------------

---

i agree with skydiver.

 

just make sure that when you contact the cache owner/placer that you are polite. they may not know of local rules about where to place caches and simply pointing out the possiable mistake could get it corrected. if you get no reply (wait at LEAST one week)or determine this person knows and doesnt care/won't correct the problem, then request it be archived.

 

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kksnanna:

Do you really think we need to police the caches? If the administrators are not checking to see if they are legal why would you want to take on the job?

 

The harder you work,the harder it is to give up.

---

 

actually i think they do review the caches to see which ones seem to be illegal or prohibited (ie. national parks) but...

A. how many people would you need to know and crosscheck every national, state, county, city, (or other), park trail and preserve rules and regulation?

B. what if a cache was edited(moved) after it was approved?

 

so, yes i think we need to take an interest in the caches that are placed.

 

 

[This message was edited by welch on August 26, 2002 at 03:36 PM.]

[+brdad]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kksnanna:

If the administrators are not checking to see if they are legal why would you want to take on the job?

---

 

The administrators do not have the capacity to check the full legality of every cache. They would have to contact landowners, managers, the EPA, and who knows who else to do that. They depend on us to take some responsibility for the whole game.

 

I would, however, reccomend that anyone that is about to accuse someone of placing an illeagal cache that they tread lightly. It's very hard to be 100% sure of anything these days. Unless you personally know where property lines are, who owns the property, and whether or not special permission had been given to the placer, you may be making an incorrect assumption that the placement is illeagal.

 

I for one would not say much unless I thought it was a definate legal issue or safety concern - just like I would not report every person that was exceeding the speed limit by my house. And then, I would definately send a friendly email to the owner describing my concern first before taking any other actions.

 

Me Fail English? That's Unpossible!

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kksnanna:

Do you really think we need to police the caches? If the administrators are not checking to see if they are legal why would you want to take on the job?

---

 

The more caches that are placed illegally, the more that people will look at the sport in a negative light. If we try to slow the growth of caches placed in completely "illegal" spots, it will help the sport in the long run.

 

Just because someone might do this, it doesn't mean they'll go hunting down caches specifically to rat them out... I'm thinking that it is more like "what happens if you come across a cache you know is illegally placed" not actively looking for them.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[+briansnat]

If you find a cache in an inappropriate area it you should certainly inform the cache owner. If you get no response, or a rude one, then its fine to contact this website to ask that it be archived.

 

One of the arguments we use when we are trying to convince the authorities to allow our sport on "their" lands, is the fact that we police ourselves. Therefore we should consider it our duty to report an illegal cache, or one that we see impacting the area.

 

The first contact should be be a private and nicely worded note to the cache owner. A responsible cache owner will then address the issue. If the cache owner proves to be irresponsible, then go ahead and bring it to the attention of the Geocaching community

[+Web-ling]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

I think this kind of thing should be a two step process.

+ First, politely contact the cacher who placed the cache with your concerns.+ Second, if the first didn't yeild satisfactory results, contact geocaching.com with your concerns..

---

 

I've contacted several cachers with concerns. Almost all have taken care of the problem without any intervention from Jeremy and crew.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kksnanna:

Do you really think we need to police the caches? If the administrators are not checking to see if they are legal why would you want to take on the job?

---

Mainly because it's OUR sport, not just theirs. They run the website, but can't possibly check out all the possible legalities of every single cache. Also, situations change. They depend on cachers to be their eyes and ears. And, to keep the pressure off of them, which allows them to put their efforts into other areas like website development, local cachers need to handle local issues as much as possible. Just be straightforward, yet polite, with the cacher, and most problems can be easily resolved.

 

[+Logscaler and Red]

for some heated replies from the other side of the coin. Experience talking. Been there several time already and have had no troubles except the last one. Bar-B-Que. Flamed real bad. I had insider information for some local areas, I thought I had passed it along in a manner that would get out and about. Wrong. Will it stop me from doing it again? Not if it is needed. I like this game to much to have it killed off. I do not raise a flag unless I believe there is a problem. I have all ways e-mailed the owner(s) first or a couple times and I have only had to get the Admin. involved a couple times. And that

was due to lack of response. My thought is if you know there has been a problem with an area before, try to work it out. If it is a new area without a comparable area that has had trouble ; IE State Parks, National Parks, etcetc, Then I think asking forgiveness instead of permission is a good way to go. BUT, you must be ready to either work with the persons who owns or control's the land your cache is in or promptly remove your cache if

requested to do so. Which ever path you choose in this matter, just ask your self what your response would be to your e-mail if you recieved it. Just reread the message your sending from the other side of the coin. Later, logscale :

[Broncoholics]

I personally feel that worrying about another person's cache just adds stress to your life. If the cache is not yours, then don't worry about it. I understand trying to be a geocaching hero and all, but to each his own. If the cache isn't causing bodily harm or putting someone's life in danger, then don't stress it. All you have to do is worry about yourself or your team. I understand, that it might bother you, some cachers break the rules. But as long as it's not your cache, then why stress????????

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

 

Our feet go where the caches are!

[Broncoholics]

I personally feel that worrying about another person's cache just adds stress to your life. If the cache is not yours, then don't worry about it. I understand trying to be a geocaching hero and all, but to each his own. If the cache isn't causing bodily harm or putting someone's life in danger, then don't stress it. All you have to do is worry about yourself or your team. I understand, that it might bother you, some cachers break the rules. But as long as it's not your cache, then why stress????????

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

 

Our feet go where the caches are!

[+wcgreen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by upinyachit:

I personally feel that worrying about another person's cache just adds stress to your life. If the cache is not yours, then don't worry about it. I understand trying to be a geocaching hero and all, but to each his own. If the cache isn't causing bodily harm or putting someone's life in danger, then don't stress it. All you have to do is worry about yourself or your team. I understand, that it might bother you, some cachers break the rules. But as long as it's not your cache, then why stress????????

---

 

If I've spent a lot of time getting permission, planning my cache, placing it, setting up its page, etc. and someone places one that pisses off the park management and that causes park management to ask/demand that I remove my caches, then it's more than stress--it's a painful waste of my time and a loss of enjoyment and accomplishment for both me and others.

 

If I found a rule-breaking cache in a park in which I had caches, I would e-mail that cache-owner. Being "stress-free" is not worth risking the goodwill built at that park with its management. On the other hand, if someone wants contact names and phone numbers for that park, I'm more than willing to share.

 

wcgreen

 

--

Wendy Chatley Green

wcgreen@eudoramail.com

[+wcgreen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by upinyachit:

I personally feel that worrying about another person's cache just adds stress to your life. If the cache is not yours, then don't worry about it. I understand trying to be a geocaching hero and all, but to each his own. If the cache isn't causing bodily harm or putting someone's life in danger, then don't stress it. All you have to do is worry about yourself or your team. I understand, that it might bother you, some cachers break the rules. But as long as it's not your cache, then why stress????????

---

 

If I've spent a lot of time getting permission, planning my cache, placing it, setting up its page, etc. and someone places one that pisses off the park management and that causes park management to ask/demand that I remove my caches, then it's more than stress--it's a painful waste of my time and a loss of enjoyment and accomplishment for both me and others.

 

If I found a rule-breaking cache in a park in which I had caches, I would e-mail that cache-owner. Being "stress-free" is not worth risking the goodwill built at that park with its management. On the other hand, if someone wants contact names and phone numbers for that park, I'm more than willing to share.

 

wcgreen

 

--

Wendy Chatley Green

wcgreen@eudoramail.com

[Rubbertoe]

Yeah - I agree... contacting someone about a questionably placed cache isn't a stress. It is something that I would want to do in order to prolong the acceptance of the hobby.

 

The more people that place caches in areas that are off-limits or 'against the rules' means the more chances that people will become against geocaching in general. Imho, that would be more stressful to me than contacting someone about a cache.

 

I don't want it to get to the point where just the word "geocacher" is thought of in a negative way. Sure, to each his own - but in the interest of preserving the hobby, it is in our own interests to bring it up if we find something that is obviously illegal/off-limits or whatever other term you care to use.

 

It has nothing to do with trying to be a "geocaching hero" - it is self preservation of the hobby.

 

(Having said that, let me note that I've never come across a cache that I thought was bad enough to contact the owner or anyone at geocaching.com - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't if I thought I should )

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[Rubbertoe]

Yeah - I agree... contacting someone about a questionably placed cache isn't a stress. It is something that I would want to do in order to prolong the acceptance of the hobby.

 

The more people that place caches in areas that are off-limits or 'against the rules' means the more chances that people will become against geocaching in general. Imho, that would be more stressful to me than contacting someone about a cache.

 

I don't want it to get to the point where just the word "geocacher" is thought of in a negative way. Sure, to each his own - but in the interest of preserving the hobby, it is in our own interests to bring it up if we find something that is obviously illegal/off-limits or whatever other term you care to use.

 

It has nothing to do with trying to be a "geocaching hero" - it is self preservation of the hobby.

 

(Having said that, let me note that I've never come across a cache that I thought was bad enough to contact the owner or anyone at geocaching.com - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't if I thought I should )

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[BigDoggie]

Absolutely not. We are geocachers, not plain clothes police.

 

If you don't feel that you can safely seek a cache, don't seek it. It is that simple.

 

[This message was edited by BigDoggie on August 26, 2002 at 02:45 PM.]

[skydiver]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDoggie:

Absolutely not. We are geocachers, not plain clothes police.

 

If you don't feel that you can safely seek a cache, don't seek it. It is that simple.

 

---

 

This isn't about geocaches that are dangerous, it's about geocaches that are illegally placed.

 

If a cache is illegally placed, it paints ALL geocachers as lawless hooligans who don't care about private property, the environment, or respect for other people. THAT will be the death of this sport if WE don't take an active interest in preventing it.

 

---------------------------------------

Friends don't let friends NOT geocache.

---------------------------------------

[+glenn95630]

quote:

---

Originally posted by skydiver:

 

If a cache is illegally placed, it paints ALL geocachers as lawless hooligans who don't care about private property, the environment, or respect for other people. THAT will be the death of this sport if WE don't take an active interest in preventing it.

---

 

Give me a break! Any of you posters saying "All illegal geocaches should be removed!" could spend 15 minutes using the search feature on the web site and find at least 10 'illegal' geocaches, but it appears you haven't. I do not believe in placing caches in against-policy locations, I won't place my caches in against-policy locations, but if there is a cache in an against-policy location, I will hunt it. And I won't email the cache owner saying that it is against policy to place the cache there.

 

I can understand that policy has to be black and white for overworked land managers, "No Caches". But I can also understand if these same land managers don't remove the caches that they know are there. If 30 caches get placed in an against-policy location then it becomes a bad thing and many should be removed. But 1 or 2 caches? ...that is okay.

 

Everything in moderation with a dose of common sense.

 

I do have a radar gun and take pictures of cars I see spedding on the freeway, so if you are speeding on Interstate 80 - beware! I don't want you to ruin it for all of us.

 

Glenn

[Rubbertoe]

Well, all I can say is that obviously some of you folks just don't seem to get it. Of all the people who I would think would support the idea of self-policing of caches would be a person that is pimping the Georgia Geocachers Association in his posts. Does the GGA have no concern for laws/rules as well?

 

I think that the 2nd reply in this thread (by SkyDiver) pretty much said it right. If a cache is hidden that could eventually cause problems with law-enforcement or park officials, it will only make the hobby of geocaching look that much worse to those people.

 

If I went to find a cache and saw that it was hidden 100 feet into an area that had PRIVATE PROPERTY signs posted all around, you can bet I would e-mail the owner suggesting that it be moved. Not because I give a crap about the cache or the cache owner, but because I don't want another geocacher to be caught on private property and end up getting into trouble - effectively dirtying up the name of geocaching for the rest of us.

 

The more people that get caught where they aren't supposed to be, the more that geocaching is going to be considered a bad thing to the rest of the general public. Reporting OBVIOUSLY illegally placed caches shouldn't be thought of as a bad thing. And like SkyDiver said, contacting the cache owner should always be the first step.

 

I'm trying to understand how someone would think it is a bad thing, to let someone know they have placed a cache that is breaking rules or laws.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[Rubbertoe]

Well, all I can say is that obviously some of you folks just don't seem to get it. Of all the people who I would think would support the idea of self-policing of caches would be a person that is pimping the Georgia Geocachers Association in his posts. Does the GGA have no concern for laws/rules as well?

 

I think that the 2nd reply in this thread (by SkyDiver) pretty much said it right. If a cache is hidden that could eventually cause problems with law-enforcement or park officials, it will only make the hobby of geocaching look that much worse to those people.

 

If I went to find a cache and saw that it was hidden 100 feet into an area that had PRIVATE PROPERTY signs posted all around, you can bet I would e-mail the owner suggesting that it be moved. Not because I give a crap about the cache or the cache owner, but because I don't want another geocacher to be caught on private property and end up getting into trouble - effectively dirtying up the name of geocaching for the rest of us.

 

The more people that get caught where they aren't supposed to be, the more that geocaching is going to be considered a bad thing to the rest of the general public. Reporting OBVIOUSLY illegally placed caches shouldn't be thought of as a bad thing. And like SkyDiver said, contacting the cache owner should always be the first step.

 

I'm trying to understand how someone would think it is a bad thing, to let someone know they have placed a cache that is breaking rules or laws.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[+Moosiegirl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

Give me a break! Any of you posters saying "All illegal geocaches should be removed!" could spend 15 minutes using the search feature on the web site and find at least 10 'illegal' geocaches, but it appears you haven't.

Glenn

---

 

WRONG, Glen!!!!!! Out of 268 caches within 100 miles of my home, I have questions about 2. Just TWO. The VAST majority of geocachers ARE willing to play by the rules and work within the system to keep the sport viable. I'm saying we should question them when there may be a problem, to insure that the other 99% of caches may remain there to enjoy.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

I do not believe in placing caches in against-policy locations, I won't place my caches in against-policy locations, but if there is a cache in an against-policy location, I will hunt it. And I won't email the cache owner saying that it is against policy to place the cache there.

Glenn

---

 

Then insidious caches that "aren't hurting anything," and are searched by people who don't think about it, will do harm to our sport. It's like cigarette smoke; you can say all you want that it doesn't hurt anyone else, but there is solid proof to the contrary.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

I can understand that policy has to be black and white for overworked land managers, "No Caches". But I can also understand if these same land managers don't remove the caches that they know are there. If 30 caches get placed in an against-policy location then it becomes a bad thing and many should be removed. But 1 or 2 caches? ...that is okay.

Glenn

---

 

They don't remove them because they don't know they are there, or they ARE overworked, and can't take the time to check the list once a month and then hike out to get them. Unless you know a lot more than I do about wildlife biology and ecosystems, you DON'T KNOW if that is a harmless cache. And part of our responsibility to this sport is to educate ourselves enough to be good stewards of the earth on which we play.

 

It makes me sad that a sport that excercises body, mind, and spirit doesn't, in and of itself, encourage people to do some adult-type self-examination about values and attitudes, instead of relying on sarcasm and personal attacks for self-edification.

 

I've made up my mind, I AM the Cache Police. I will do my best to be kind and diplomatic and to educate, but if someone is breaking a rule about placement, I WILL do something about it. Thanks for all the opinions expressed.

 

Candy (moosiegirl)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CentralTexasGeocachers/

[+Moosiegirl]

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

Give me a break! Any of you posters saying "All illegal geocaches should be removed!" could spend 15 minutes using the search feature on the web site and find at least 10 'illegal' geocaches, but it appears you haven't.

Glenn

---

 

WRONG, Glen!!!!!! Out of 268 caches within 100 miles of my home, I have questions about 2. Just TWO. The VAST majority of geocachers ARE willing to play by the rules and work within the system to keep the sport viable. I'm saying we should question them when there may be a problem, to insure that the other 99% of caches may remain there to enjoy.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

I do not believe in placing caches in against-policy locations, I won't place my caches in against-policy locations, but if there is a cache in an against-policy location, I will hunt it. And I won't email the cache owner saying that it is against policy to place the cache there.

Glenn

---

 

Then insidious caches that "aren't hurting anything," and are searched by people who don't think about it, will do harm to our sport. It's like cigarette smoke; you can say all you want that it doesn't hurt anyone else, but there is solid proof to the contrary.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by glenn95630:

 

I can understand that policy has to be black and white for overworked land managers, "No Caches". But I can also understand if these same land managers don't remove the caches that they know are there. If 30 caches get placed in an against-policy location then it becomes a bad thing and many should be removed. But 1 or 2 caches? ...that is okay.

Glenn

---

 

They don't remove them because they don't know they are there, or they ARE overworked, and can't take the time to check the list once a month and then hike out to get them. Unless you know a lot more than I do about wildlife biology and ecosystems, you DON'T KNOW if that is a harmless cache. And part of our responsibility to this sport is to educate ourselves enough to be good stewards of the earth on which we play.

 

It makes me sad that a sport that excercises body, mind, and spirit doesn't, in and of itself, encourage people to do some adult-type self-examination about values and attitudes, instead of relying on sarcasm and personal attacks for self-edification.

 

I've made up my mind, I AM the Cache Police. I will do my best to be kind and diplomatic and to educate, but if someone is breaking a rule about placement, I WILL do something about it. Thanks for all the opinions expressed.

 

Candy (moosiegirl)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CentralTexasGeocachers/

[BigDoggie]

Illegal, schmelegal. If "illegal" means placed without the explicit approval of the land owner or manager, then probably one-third of the caches out there would meet your criteria.

 

Society has chosen a group of people whose job it is to detect and respond to "illegal activity". Most of us are not members of that group.

 

[This message was edited by BigDoggie on August 26, 2002 at 02:44 PM.]

[+Team Tecmage]

Check this out:followup story. In the orginal story, Geocaching and Geocachers were being blamed for looting and destruction of ancient sites in Arizona.

 

That has everything to do with this thread. Seems the caches were not placed with permission, or guidance. Some of these caches were remote locations, and Geocaching was taking the heat for things that have been going on outside of our RASH.

 

"Ratting" implies that there is some authority to rat to. The admin here laid out some basic rules and cannot be expected to go to each and every cache site, and talk to the parks' staffs to ensure that caches are properly placed. They expect us to follow those rules. True, we all don't that to some extent or another.

 

We need to hold each other accountable- Welch said it well.

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDoggie:

Illegal, schmelegal. If "illegal" means placed without the explicit approval of the land owner or manager, then probably one-third of the caches out there would meet your criteria.

 

Society has chosen a group of people whose job it is to detect and respond to "illegal activity". Most of us are not members of that group.

---

 

I'm glad most of the people in the world don't think the way you do... you seem to be saying that it is acceptable to do whatever you want in life, illegal or not - until you get caught, I suppose.

 

We aren't in a position of authority, so we should just turn our heads whenever we see something bad that is being done? I don't think so.

 

And no, not all caches are placed with approval - in fact, probably most of them aren't - but it's not ALL of those that I am worried about. That is just the nature of people - a public park is a good place to hide stuff, it is basically public land, and many times a person will not seek out permission. If a cache is hidden in a fairly public place like that, as long as no damage is being done to the area due to the cache, I've got no problem at all with that cache being there.

 

The caches that I am worried about the ones that are BLATANTLY against the rules - posted in areas with NO TRESSPASSING signs, areas that say CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC, or in an area that is very obviously private property, ie; some place that common sense would tell you NOT to go if you were just walking by one day, and not geocaching.

 

I think all of us realize that most people will hide caches without permission. It isn't those people that we are talking about. The people we would contact, or "rat out", are the ones that are very obviously breaking a law or a rule by doing something so painfully obvious against the rules that we can't help but notice.

 

I think I'm done replying to this thread... if you don't see where I'm coming from by now, you never will. I'm still amazed that someone in a state geocaching association would care so little about people breaking the rules/laws in that very hobby.

 

Btw - I've been contacted by another geocacher before about one of my caches that may have unknowingly been placed illegally. He was an *** about it, so it was a bit annoying - but I did end up archiving the cache. If people will just be civil to one another, and not just fire off an angry e-mail DEMANDING that a cache be removed, I think it would be a better thing for everyone. The more that the people in the hobby follow the rules, the better the hobby will be for everyone. I don't think you can dispute that.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDoggie:

Illegal, schmelegal. If "illegal" means placed without the explicit approval of the land owner or manager, then probably one-third of the caches out there would meet your criteria.

 

Society has chosen a group of people whose job it is to detect and respond to "illegal activity". Most of us are not members of that group.

---

 

I'm glad most of the people in the world don't think the way you do... you seem to be saying that it is acceptable to do whatever you want in life, illegal or not - until you get caught, I suppose.

 

We aren't in a position of authority, so we should just turn our heads whenever we see something bad that is being done? I don't think so.

 

And no, not all caches are placed with approval - in fact, probably most of them aren't - but it's not ALL of those that I am worried about. That is just the nature of people - a public park is a good place to hide stuff, it is basically public land, and many times a person will not seek out permission. If a cache is hidden in a fairly public place like that, as long as no damage is being done to the area due to the cache, I've got no problem at all with that cache being there.

 

The caches that I am worried about the ones that are BLATANTLY against the rules - posted in areas with NO TRESSPASSING signs, areas that say CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC, or in an area that is very obviously private property, ie; some place that common sense would tell you NOT to go if you were just walking by one day, and not geocaching.

 

I think all of us realize that most people will hide caches without permission. It isn't those people that we are talking about. The people we would contact, or "rat out", are the ones that are very obviously breaking a law or a rule by doing something so painfully obvious against the rules that we can't help but notice.

 

I think I'm done replying to this thread... if you don't see where I'm coming from by now, you never will. I'm still amazed that someone in a state geocaching association would care so little about people breaking the rules/laws in that very hobby.

 

Btw - I've been contacted by another geocacher before about one of my caches that may have unknowingly been placed illegally. He was an *** about it, so it was a bit annoying - but I did end up archiving the cache. If people will just be civil to one another, and not just fire off an angry e-mail DEMANDING that a cache be removed, I think it would be a better thing for everyone. The more that the people in the hobby follow the rules, the better the hobby will be for everyone. I don't think you can dispute that.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[+ApK]

quote:

---

 

I've made up my mind, I _AM_ the Cache Police. I will do my best to be kind and diplomatic and to educate, but if someone is breaking a rule about placement, I _WILL_ do something about it. Thanks for all the opinions expressed.

 

Candy (moosiegirl)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CentralTexasGeocachers/

 

Hoo Rah. You go, girl.

It's very good that you have a problem with the fact that the best argument against seems to be "It's too stressful for me to get involved so you shouldn't, either."

It's been said that there are three kinds of people: Weasels, Lambs and Weasel-Slappers. We need more Weasel-Slappers.

[+ApK]

quote:

---

 

I've made up my mind, I _AM_ the Cache Police. I will do my best to be kind and diplomatic and to educate, but if someone is breaking a rule about placement, I _WILL_ do something about it. Thanks for all the opinions expressed.

 

Candy (moosiegirl)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CentralTexasGeocachers/

 

Hoo Rah. You go, girl.

It's very good that you have a problem with the fact that the best argument against seems to be "It's too stressful for me to get involved so you shouldn't, either."

It's been said that there are three kinds of people: Weasels, Lambs and Weasel-Slappers. We need more Weasel-Slappers.

[+Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BigDoggie:

Illegal, schmelegal. If "illegal" means placed without the explicit approval of the land owner or manager, then probably one-third of the caches out there would meet your criteria.

 

Society has chosen a group of people whose job it is to detect and respond to "illegal activity". Most of us are not members of that group.

 

=================================

Interested in Geocaching in the state of Georgia? Visit the Georgia Geocachers Association at http://www.ggaonline.org

---

 

With that kind of attitude, I guess we're lucky the only kind of caches you hunt are event caches. At least those are usually legally placed.

So is that the opinion of the GGA? Inquiring land managers would like to know, I'm sure.

 

Illegitimus non carborundum!

[+Criminal]

I mostly skimmed through these. The gist of it seems to be that we should rat out illegal caches. Fist, who's definition of “legal” are you using? I know of no law that prohibits geocaches. There are some regulations regarding abandoning items on certain types of parks or forest areas, but these are not laws. These regulations are open to wide interpretation and geocaches do not necessarily violate these regs per se. It really depends on your (or a park manager’s) understanding of the reg and its intent. There are however, some places where geocaches have been prohibited by name and placing one there would be a violation of the regulation.

 

My opinion is that any caches that are being called “illegal” by some were probably placed there by a well meaning individual who was never aware of violating anything. There are people who automatically assume the worst about others and this seems to be the case here. I refuse (as usual) to play to this type of personality.

 

It’s a game (or hobby)! This comes up repeatedly in the forums. I don’t need anybody mothering me, policing me, or otherwise attempting to impose their so-called morality on me. If it’s not the cache container they have to complain about, it’ll be the location. Then the contents or description placed on the web-page. There seems to always be some holier-than-thou nitwit who wants to mess this game (or hobby) up for everybody.

 

I will continue to act in good faith when finding or hiding a cache. If doing so causes some self righteous “geo-mom” to get all bent out of shape, too bad. It’s a game (or hobby)! Mind your own dadgum business!

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[Rubbertoe]

Maybe you should read the posts instead of skimming before you start calling people names (geo-moms?) and telling them to mind their own dadgum business.

 

If you'd read the posts, you'll see most of us aren't interested in nitpicking every cache - only the painfully obvious rule/law breaking caches are the ones we are concerned with.

 

And yes, if you place a cache on someone's private property - you would be breaking a law. It is called trespassing. And anyone who found the cache would also be trespassing. If I found a cache that I KNEW was placed where people weren't allowed to be, I would contact that cache owner about it.

 

All we need is more negative press from people getting arrested while trespassing on someone's land, searching for geocaches. Sometimes it is up to others to protect the morons and inconsiderate a-holes in this world.

 

Man, I really gotta quit reading this thread. It is just reinforcing my suspicion of how many dimwits there really are in the world.

 

DUHH... IF NOBODY SEES ME DOIN IT, I AINT BREAKIN NO LAWS DUUHHH MIND YA OWN dadgum BIZNESS

 

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[Rubbertoe]

Maybe you should read the posts instead of skimming before you start calling people names (geo-moms?) and telling them to mind their own dadgum business.

 

If you'd read the posts, you'll see most of us aren't interested in nitpicking every cache - only the painfully obvious rule/law breaking caches are the ones we are concerned with.

 

And yes, if you place a cache on someone's private property - you would be breaking a law. It is called trespassing. And anyone who found the cache would also be trespassing. If I found a cache that I KNEW was placed where people weren't allowed to be, I would contact that cache owner about it.

 

All we need is more negative press from people getting arrested while trespassing on someone's land, searching for geocaches. Sometimes it is up to others to protect the morons and inconsiderate a-holes in this world.

 

Man, I really gotta quit reading this thread. It is just reinforcing my suspicion of how many dimwits there really are in the world.

 

DUHH... IF NOBODY SEES ME DOIN IT, I AINT BREAKIN NO LAWS DUUHHH MIND YA OWN dadgum BIZNESS

 

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[+sbell111]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Criminal:

I will continue to act in good faith when finding or hiding a cache. If doing so causes some self righteous “geo-mom” to get all bent out of shape, too bad. It’s a game (or hobby)! Mind your own dadgum business!

---

 

I have no doubt that all of the caches you have hidden are placed appropriately.

 

However, the issue that I believe is being addressed here are caches that clearly are placed in areas contrary to the rules of geocaching.com. These may be caches with inappropriate items, caches placed in disallowed areas, etc.

 

These caches, if found by the land managers tend to tarnish the name of geocaching and make it harder to gain permission to make future hides.

 

While responsible cachers like you and I do not need anyone to 'police' our actions, some players do not live by the same codes of honor that we do.

 

Certainly, it is appropriate to send these people a polite email to advise them that a cache they placed may not be appropriate. This allows them to correct the problem (remove the inappropriate items, place the cache in a location that allows caching, et al).

 

If the problem is not corrected as a result of this act of kindness, I would certainly consider requesting the cache to be archived.

[+Criminal]

Actually R-toe, I agree with you on most of this. It may have sounded harsher than I intended it to. The first cache I placed is on land I could not begin to know who owns. It’s right at the high tide line so I think ownership is moot.

 

I have a natural aversion to people who like to believe they know better than the rest of us. If we are all acting in good faith, and I believe we are, then no policing is necessary. My main point is “who’s definition of legal is going to be used by those who feel the need to rat?” It would infuriate me if somebody asked admin to archive one of my caches without trying to remedy it through me first. See, we agree on that right? ;-)

 

As for “DUHH... IF NOBODY SEES ME DOIN IT, I AINT BREAKIN NO LAWS DUUHHH MIND YA OWN dadgum BIZNESS” I never said or implied that.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[Rubbertoe]

What if you were a member of the 'unknowing' public and someone placed a cache on YOUR private property without your permission? Geocachers walking through your yard or field every few days, sometimes bushwhacking - sometimes littering...

 

Wouldn't you want to get rid of it? Wouldn't you try to try to find out who hid it there, and have it archived on the site so people would quit trespassing on your land? Wouldn't you think that someone should have reported to the cache owner that it was in someone's private land?

 

And probably most important of all, every time from then on out - whenever you'd hear the word "geocaching" you would think about all those people who had no respect for the law... the people who willingly trespass on people's land in order to play a game.

 

So, yes, again - I'd have no problem with contacting a cache owner if I knew that their cache was placed illegally. As for little nitpicky rules infractions - that is nothing I'm concerned with.

 

I'm trying to understand how people could think otherwise... really I am.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on August 26, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]

[Rubbertoe]

What if you were a member of the 'unknowing' public and someone placed a cache on YOUR private property without your permission? Geocachers walking through your yard or field every few days, sometimes bushwhacking - sometimes littering...

 

Wouldn't you want to get rid of it? Wouldn't you try to try to find out who hid it there, and have it archived on the site so people would quit trespassing on your land? Wouldn't you think that someone should have reported to the cache owner that it was in someone's private land?

 

And probably most important of all, every time from then on out - whenever you'd hear the word "geocaching" you would think about all those people who had no respect for the law... the people who willingly trespass on people's land in order to play a game.

 

So, yes, again - I'd have no problem with contacting a cache owner if I knew that their cache was placed illegally. As for little nitpicky rules infractions - that is nothing I'm concerned with.

 

I'm trying to understand how people could think otherwise... really I am.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on August 26, 2002 at 01:27 PM.]

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Criminal:

If we are all acting in good faith, and I believe we are, then no policing is necessary.

---

 

Well, that's the thing... the people who aren't acting in good faith, I just feel they'll end up spoilnig it for the rest of us. I've just seen enough of my own cache location end up with trash around them, when they were formerly very nice untouched wilderness. It just discourages me that people would do that, and so it makes me expect the worst from people usually.

 

quote:

---

My main point is “who’s definition of legal is going to be used by those who feel the need to rat?” It would infuriate me if somebody asked admin to archive one of my caches without trying to remedy it through me first. See, we agree on that right? ;-)

---

 

Yeah, we agree on that... and when I say "legal" I mean "legal" as we all tend to think of it. If it is placed where signs are posted, indicating private property or no tresspassing or off limits or whatever - those are the caches I'm talking about.

 

Most of my caches are placed without permission - but in places that are assumed to be "public land" like parks, lakes, etc. So, the nitpickers could try to get me on those... but those caches are well hidden, and very unlikely to impact the area or be found by anyone else. Those aren't the kinds of caches I have any concern with.

 

quote:

---

As for “DUHH... IF NOBODY SEES ME DOIN IT, I AINT BREAKIN NO LAWS DUUHHH MIND YA OWN dadgum BIZNESS” I never said or implied that.

---

 

No... I'm just glomming all the people together, whose points of view I just cannot understand. Some of them who have said things like "Illegal, schmelegal" and made comments dripping with sarcasm - it tends to make me not hear them as individuals, but just as a clump of people who don't make sense to me. Sorry about that - you caught my little rant after letting my annoyance build up.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Criminal:

If we are all acting in good faith, and I believe we are, then no policing is necessary.

---

 

Well, that's the thing... the people who aren't acting in good faith, I just feel they'll end up spoilnig it for the rest of us. I've just seen enough of my own cache location end up with trash around them, when they were formerly very nice untouched wilderness. It just discourages me that people would do that, and so it makes me expect the worst from people usually.

 

quote:

---

My main point is “who’s definition of legal is going to be used by those who feel the need to rat?” It would infuriate me if somebody asked admin to archive one of my caches without trying to remedy it through me first. See, we agree on that right? ;-)

---

 

Yeah, we agree on that... and when I say "legal" I mean "legal" as we all tend to think of it. If it is placed where signs are posted, indicating private property or no tresspassing or off limits or whatever - those are the caches I'm talking about.

 

Most of my caches are placed without permission - but in places that are assumed to be "public land" like parks, lakes, etc. So, the nitpickers could try to get me on those... but those caches are well hidden, and very unlikely to impact the area or be found by anyone else. Those aren't the kinds of caches I have any concern with.

 

quote:

---

As for “DUHH... IF NOBODY SEES ME DOIN IT, I AINT BREAKIN NO LAWS DUUHHH MIND YA OWN dadgum BIZNESS” I never said or implied that.

---

 

No... I'm just glomming all the people together, whose points of view I just cannot understand. Some of them who have said things like "Illegal, schmelegal" and made comments dripping with sarcasm - it tends to make me not hear them as individuals, but just as a clump of people who don't make sense to me. Sorry about that - you caught my little rant after letting my annoyance build up.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

[BigDoggie]

My opinion is just that: MY opinion.

 

Had it been someone else's opinion, I would have said that, too.

 

I do not advocate the destruction of private or public property of any sort, the despoiling of wilderness areas, or any thing of the sort. I am simply stating that it is not our job to police the woods. Too many people have their noses deep into other people's business.

 

If you don't like a cache, don't seek it.

[Broncoholics]

quote:

---

What if you were a member of the 'unknowing' public and someone placed a cache on YOUR private property without your permission? Geocachers walking through your yard or field every few days, sometimes bushwhacking - sometimes littering...

---

 

Come on, give cachers credit where credit is due!

 

In this quote above me, the statement doesn,'t have the positive attitude of any geocacher I know. The littering part is absolutely ridiculous. Most cachers cache in and trash out. An "outsider" would most likely litter before a cacher would. Some cachers we know don't go caching without a trash bag! We

personally have contributed our time gathering trash that others put there. We did it for the environment and to keep giving cachers a good name.

 

As far as private property goes, I can understand someone's concern. But the odds are very slim that a cache would be placed on YOUR property. We personally don't know the statistics, but we know for a fact that there are very few illegal caches placed. So to draw more attention to this subject doesn't make sense at all. All we know is that we haven't heard of any dramatic geocaching stories out here in Rochester, NY!

 

As far as I know, most geocachers respect the hobby. Let's try getting more positive out of geocaching than negative.

 

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

 

Our feet go where the caches are!

[Broncoholics]

quote:

---

What if you were a member of the 'unknowing' public and someone placed a cache on YOUR private property without your permission? Geocachers walking through your yard or field every few days, sometimes bushwhacking - sometimes littering...

---

 

Come on, give cachers credit where credit is due!

 

In this quote above me, the statement doesn,'t have the positive attitude of any geocacher I know. The littering part is absolutely ridiculous. Most cachers cache in and trash out. An "outsider" would most likely litter before a cacher would. Some cachers we know don't go caching without a trash bag! We

personally have contributed our time gathering trash that others put there. We did it for the environment and to keep giving cachers a good name.

 

As far as private property goes, I can understand someone's concern. But the odds are very slim that a cache would be placed on YOUR property. We personally don't know the statistics, but we know for a fact that there are very few illegal caches placed. So to draw more attention to this subject doesn't make sense at all. All we know is that we haven't heard of any dramatic geocaching stories out here in Rochester, NY!

 

As far as I know, most geocachers respect the hobby. Let's try getting more positive out of geocaching than negative.

 

 

Duane from

Upinyachit

 

Our feet go where the caches are!

[+Mudfrog]

I just dont understand how some people think! Whats with the "mind your own dadgum business" and "if you dont like a cache, then dont seek it" statements??? This IS our business. We all enjoy this hobby but it will only takes a few to mess things up for all of us. When a cache is found placed illegally and there are people trespassing to find it, then it immediately raises a red flag for GeoCaching. Land managers, park rangers, and others with authority to help with the instigation of rules to forbid GeoCaching usually will only remember these "bad" incidents.

 

I dont agree with some of the rules out there, especially not being able to cache in a National Park. Afterall, these are all of our lands, but there are rules that we may not understand and we dont need to break them. Gives our hobby a black eye when you're caught doing this!

[+Texas-Gal]

quote:

---

It’s right at the high tide line so I think ownership is moot.

---

Just to clarify, in case you or anyone else was wondering about this issue, when property is located along a body of water, property lines almost always extend out tens (or even hundreds) of feet out into that body of water - with exceptions only when specifically delineated in the deed as recorded with the county/city. Although the property owner does not then "own" Lake Travis, the Colorado River or the Gulf of Mexico, he does "own" part of the land underneath it. I think this is done precisely to avoid confusion like that above- without this principle, people would own different sizes of property when the tide is high or low, or when the river is flooded or dry. By extending property lines out into the water, that person's property size stays the same (and so do his taxes... )

 

Of course, the public has the right of access to public lakes/rivers/ocean - but that does not mean the land you are allowed to walk across, even right up on the edge of the water (and underneath it), doesn't belong to someone.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled conversation...

 

the-cache.com Texas-Gal's Geocaching Site

[+Texas-Gal]

quote:

---

It’s right at the high tide line so I think ownership is moot.

---

Just to clarify, in case you or anyone else was wondering about this issue, when property is located along a body of water, property lines almost always extend out tens (or even hundreds) of feet out into that body of water - with exceptions only when specifically delineated in the deed as recorded with the county/city. Although the property owner does not then "own" Lake Travis, the Colorado River or the Gulf of Mexico, he does "own" part of the land underneath it. I think this is done precisely to avoid confusion like that above- without this principle, people would own different sizes of property when the tide is high or low, or when the river is flooded or dry. By extending property lines out into the water, that person's property size stays the same (and so do his taxes... )

 

Of course, the public has the right of access to public lakes/rivers/ocean - but that does not mean the land you are allowed to walk across, even right up on the edge of the water (and underneath it), doesn't belong to someone.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled conversation...

 

the-cache.com Texas-Gal's Geocaching Site

[+Criminal]

If we’re talking about the obstinate denial of authority, i.e. the placing of caches on known private property, then I agree, we should contact the cache owner and advise them. I do not agree that I or anybody else should contact admin and ask the cache be archived. That’s none of my (or your) dadgum business. It may be the intent of the cache owner that you break the law to get to the cache. Geocaching is going to get good and bad press, just like everything from orienteering to Bill Clinton. And like everything else it will survive. I probably won’t hunt a cache known to be illegal. I do not see that changing anytime in the near future unless we regulate all the fun out of the hobby. See this poll thread:

http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=8030921925&showpollresults=Y

 

We have different ideas of what will “mess up” geocaching. I think it will be the folks who feel the need to piddle in somebody else’s pool. I get pretty spun up by some of these threads when somebody starts talking down to others. They are placing themselves in a position of superiority, they know better than us; they are wiser and better able to judge. The only thing we need more of is caches. Not more rules to further limit us and not more “superior cachers” to watch us.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[Rubbertoe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by upinyachit:

The littering part is absolutely ridiculous.

---

 

Well I'm glad you don't have problems with it - but the idea of cachers littering is HARDLY ridiculous. When I've checked on a few of my well hidden caches, I DID have to pick up trash around the area. And where my caches are located, there is little chance of someone just hanging out and dropping trash around there. The locations of most of my caches are so that regular people won't find them or tend to be in that area.

 

I'm not saying ALL geocachers litter - but yes it DOES happen. I've seen it near ones I've hidden, and I've seen it near ones that I've found.

 

quote:

---

So to draw more attention to this subject doesn't make sense at all.

---

 

Ignore a problem and it will go away, eh? I think that is what the forums are for, anyway - discussing just such topics. It is obvious that there are many feelings towards it, with people just as passionate about it on each side of the debate.

 

quote:

---

As far as I know, most geocachers respect the hobby. Let's try getting more positive out of geocaching than negative.

---

 

I agree - as a whole, geocachers would generally be considered to be a good bunch of people, going about the game in a considerate manner - but as with any group, there are going to be people who litter, people who loot caches, and the people who place caches in places where they legally should not be.

 

I don't see how trying to have illegally placed caches moved or removed would be considered negative towards the hobby. If that makes people think I'm trying to be better than them, or that I look down on them - so be it. That isn't how I feel... I just don't want to see the public getting pissed at trespassing geocachers, and I don't want to see any geocachers get arrested for unwittingly breaking any laws while looking for a cache.

 

Lots of newbies are clueless... when you are new to something, you aren't always considering everything that maybe you should. I know when I was just starting out with geocaching, I would have assumed ANY park ANYWHERE would be fair game for a cache. I've learned otherwise since then, in reading the forums and cache logs. Over time people learn the rules and the regulations - and hopefully most of them will follow them.

 

- Toe.

 

--==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==--

 

[This message was edited by Rubbertoe on August 26, 2002 at 06:23 PM.]

[+Alan2]

"Now remember Ivan. You come tell us here at the KGB if you see your mommy or your daddy praying or reading any of that Western literature trash."

 

"It's important to be a patriot for your Motherland!"

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alan2:

"Now remember Ivan. You come tell us here at the KGB if you see your mommy or your daddy praying or reading any of that Western literature trash."

 

"It's important to be a patriot for your Motherland!"

---

uh??

 

have the site admins been killing people for illegally placing caches?