Removed cache in MN

[+MNMartian]

Looking back to some of the caches I found when I just started I ran across this log. Now I realize that placing caches in MN State parks is "illegal" but, the attitude of this "Staff" person has annoyed me.

 

"July 28 by Jaycookestaff (3 found)

 

Hello I work at the park and this cache has been found and removed. It is illegal to place cache's in the park and any found will be removed. If you don't like it tough it is a safety as well as environmental issue. We can't have people wandering through the woods off of trails looking for these things."

 

I just can't get over "If you don't like it tough... " "We can't have people wandering through the woods off of trails...."

 

Am I being a over-critical of this person's ignorant attitude or do others feel as I do?

 

[This message was edited by MNMartian on July 29, 2002 at 02:56 PM.]

[+Criminal]

That assumes the person logging it was telling the truth. If it is true I would be shocked. Not by the "tough" comment as much as them not wanting people to use the dadgum park. Call and speak to someone in charge, tell them about the game, and let them know the park gets more visitors because of it. It sounds to me like some lazy slack-jaw who would prefer nobody uses "their" park. If they get belligerent, ask them to quote the reg that says you can't put a cache there and the reg that says you have to stay on the trail.

 

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What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[+ionekoa]

sounds about right... some people are just jerks.

[+Criminal]

To follow up with my earlier, I would go out of my way to “sneak” a cache into the park. Post the geocache site with a set of coordinates that takes you to a cache somewhere well outside the park. That “sub-cache” can contain the final coordinates to the real cache inside the park. Then their park won’t come up on the website as having a cache in it. Feel free to call it the “Criminal Cache” if you like.

 

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What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[+MNMartian]

I just looked at the other 2 cache pages that were also in the same park (also removed)and they are logged the same....."if you don't like it tough..."

 

This person is a real jerk just like you said Stampede!!

[magellan315]

How about placing a virtual cache inside the park. Lets see him remove that one.

[Dru Morgan]

I think it was Tom Leykis (radio talk jock) who would approach issues like this with suggestions like, "Whatever you do, don't place a bunch of caches in this park on the website without any real cache there. Or, please, I am begging you, DON'T post 100 caches on the site with nasty notes to the guy at the coordinates."

Then he would repeat that suggestion so many times - almost as if he were really asking you to do it.

 

Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills

One man gathers what another man spills - St. Stephen (on caching)

-Dru Morgan www.theheavenlyhost.com/dru

[irvingdog]

You are all kidding right? I'm not exactly trying to take the Ghandi approach, but the State park board is in no way obliged to see things our way. Pi$$ing them off with a bunch of multi's that ultimately lead to a cache in a state park, or placing hundreds within the system will serve no positive benefit. Period. Lots of these employees are dolts with ego problems, or greenies trying to make the park suitable for the way they see fit to use state property. But we also pay taxes, and the hobby we choose to partake in, although misunderstood, is harmless, and indeed, good for the land where caches are placed. We plan on proving this with a "Trash out" event cache. Photos. Letter writing. You know, intelligent, legal and mature ways of trying to change the minds of those who make the rules. If you've got a cache hidden on land where it should not be, let the park director know you'll be out to remove it. If you set a virtual cache, make it one that follows the rules ofthe park (no eco-sensitive areas, stay on trails, etc, etc). Is the cliche "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" new to some people?

 

 

 

Ahhhh......the moist nose of a German Wirehaired Pointer!

[+Kodak's4]

But it makes sense to understand the laws involved.

 

I'd suggest calling Jay Cooke's supervisor, or the head of Minnesota state parks, whichever is easier to locate. Politely explain the situation, and ask them to SPECIFY exactly which law is being violated. Here in WA state, if something is illegal, you should be able to point to a specific paragraph in the Revised Code of Washington and see the law mentioned.

 

Lots of people post signs in restaurants saying "Shirt and shoes required by law" when there is no such law. I'd make a fair wager that there is no law that makes placing caches in Minnesota parks illegal. Call their bluff. If they don't come through with the citation that makes it clear, call up your elected representatives and bend their ear for a couple of hours, and get them to lean on Jay Cooke.

 

If nothing else, call up the Parks people and complain about Jay Cooke being hostile.

 

But get a citation for the law. I'll bet there isn't one, or if there is, it's one of those "Any act which is deemed inappropriate by Parks staff is illegal" variety. Then the question is "How much political pressure can you bring to bear". Write letters to the editors of ALL the local papers, quoting Mr. Cooke's log entry verbatim. Mention Mr. Cooke by name. Mention his supervisor by name. Give the direct dial phone numbers of both of them, in the letter, and encourage people to call both of them and express their own views on the issue.

 

Heck, post that info here. I'd be happy to call them and express my opinion.

[+MNMartian]

UH, just thought I'd clarigy that the State Park in question is Jay Cooke State Park. The person who wrote the logs is someone who works at "Jay Cooke State Park" and not their name.

I am glad for all the feedbacks I have received on this and although I am not one of the people who placed caches in JCSP I think I shall look into the regs about going off paths and such.

HHHMMMM....I wonder what the regs say about the hanging poles they have across the river for kayaking? They must be attached by cables somehow?

I know, stop stooping to their level!!

[+MNMartian]

Oops, I doubled myself up and can't delete..

Sorry.......

 

[This message was edited by MNMartian on July 29, 2002 at 06:06 PM.]

[wmas1960]

I am in the middle of reading this thread and if I understand this correctly I have a couple impressions and some questions.

 

First has anyone determined if the person posting these log entries is someone of proper authority to be removing these caches? Is the person an official person charged with maintaining the park or with enforcing laws? Or is this person some ECO-Vigilante sort that is taking it on their own to remove the caches?

 

It would seem to me that based on the mention that placing caches is illegal now in MN than there might not be much recourse. Especially if it was somebody with official authority. However, if it is a private citizen would they be stealing the cache? Or, do we legally and technically forfeit our right to ownership when we leave a cache in a public place. Either way though I don't intend to suggest making a big deal of that issue. It does however have some relevance though in principle. One other question, When a forest ranger or park manager or one of their staffs removes a cache, can the owner of the cache still claim it or are they disposed of?

 

Anyways, if the individual here is an official employee of the park service or whatever agency than I would still make a complaint to that agency and the specific supervisor or director or whatever person in charge, that the employee(?) has been posting antagonistic disrespectful comments on a public bulletin board that is frequented by many people who have a love of the environment and have every right to use the parks as anyone else. And, that such behavior is damaging to the reputation of the department. It is one thing to simply post an entry, or notice, that the cache has been determined to be a violation of law and that it should be removed in X number of days... Or that it has been removed under official authority. But, to post such comments is derogatory to the public and not of a professional behavior that would be expected of an employee of the park service.

 

I am venting a little here but as a former legal assistant who frequently had to work with state, county and federal court clerks, sheriffs deputies etc., one of the biggest things that erks me is the arrogance and unprofessionalism of some government employees and the disrespect that is frequently given to TAX PAYING, FEE PAYING CUSTOMERS and citizens. There was no need for the comments that I have read and someone should be called to task for it.

[wmas1960]

If everyone keeps there concerns and comments and opinions serious and respectfull this could show a potentially strong snapshot of public opinion regarding the issue.

 

Some rational respectful debate and opinion can often have a powerful influence.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kodak's4:

But it makes sense to understand the laws involved.

 

I'd suggest calling Jay Cooke's supervisor, or the head of Minnesota state parks, whichever is easier to locate. Politely explain the situation, and ask them to SPECIFY exactly which law is being violated. Here in WA state, if something is illegal, you should be able to point to a specific paragraph in the Revised Code of Washington and see the law mentioned.

 

Lots of people post signs in restaurants saying "Shirt and shoes required by law" when there is no such law. I'd make a fair wager that there is no law that makes placing caches in Minnesota parks illegal. Call their bluff. If they don't come through with the citation that makes it clear, call up your elected representatives and bend their ear for a couple of hours, and get them to lean on Jay Cooke.

 

If nothing else, call up the Parks people and complain about Jay Cooke being hostile.

 

But get a citation for the law. I'll bet there isn't one, or if there is, it's one of those "Any act which is deemed inappropriate by Parks staff is illegal" variety. Then the question is "How much political pressure can you bring to bear". Write letters to the editors of ALL the local papers, quoting Mr. Cooke's log entry verbatim. Mention Mr. Cooke by name. Mention his supervisor by name. Give the direct dial phone numbers of both of them, in the letter, and encourage people to call both of them and express their own views on the issue.

 

Heck, post that info here. I'd be happy to call them and express my opinion.

---

[+briansnat]

If the wording you cited is true, and I have no reason to belive that it isn't, then I have to doubt the authenticity of the party that is removing these caches. The wording is incredibly unprofessional and the writer uses horrible grammar. Nor does it cite any specific rule that would prohibit the placing of caches in the park(s).

 

I've seen a number of similar e-mails from land managers posted on these boards, and though the originator may be a small minded and inflexible bureaucrat, at least the notes were written in a respectful and professional manner, where they cited the specific park regulations that were being violated.

 

This e-mail seems to be from either a wacko, Earth First vigilante type, or a busybody who has way too much time on his hands. If I'm wrong, then MN really needs to work on raising the education, language and public relation skills of their employees.

 

"Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Kell

 

[This message was edited by BrianSnat on July 30, 2002 at 03:22 AM.]

[irvingdog]

Sadly, the state park system banned it under the addressed issue of abandoned property and leaving items unattended overnight. This was probably initially aimed at deer hunters erecting tree stands and leaving them there.

And yes, the supervisors of J.C.S.P. should be informed of the entry by this Robin Hood. I'd bet it is a chippy employee, personally. Also, if the person had one modicum of respect for tax paying citizens doing something that, until it was banned was legal, they would have given the cache placer the chance to come claim the cache. It was labeled after all. This person knew how to find the site and post their little comments.

 

 

 

Ahhhh......the moist nose of a German Wirehaired Pointer!

[wmas1960]

Funny thing you mentioned abandonment or sometimes considered as littering(?). In the Chicago area, DuPage County, it seems had a similar stance on the issue and had owners remove their caches from Forest Preserve Property. Those caches as I understand have been Archived until the issue can be resolved. When some owners didn't pick up their caches they were collected and disposed of(?). Local cachers have been working WITH the FPD to resolve all the concerns.

 

I came accross an update on the Chicago Area Geocaching page tonight that explains the issue and updates on the progress that has been made. One of the concerns was that the Forest Preserve wanted to insure that the owner or some other "Steward" was actually maintaining the cache and that there was a person available to be contacted if the cache is mislocated or broken open. I suppose some containers could be inadequate and causing debris or litter. Either that or careless searchers not placing the caches back properly or securely. They supposedly wanted to have a record of somebody to come out and clean up the clutter if the cache is dumped all over. Therefore, it sounds like caches may need to be registered(?) and placed by permit only. That way they have contact information etc. The update can be located at,

 

http://www.chicagogeocaching.com/duPage.html

 

A couple things that really caught my eye was that the FPD was actually considering the possibility of providing containers for caches. It was even mentioned that one of their education program representitives might even be interested in soliciting volunteers to maintain caches in certain specific locations around the Forest Preserves.

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irvingdog:

Sadly, the state park system banned it under the addressed issue of abandoned property and leaving items unattended overnight. This was probably initially aimed at deer hunters erecting tree stands and leaving them there.

And yes, the supervisors of J.C.S.P. should be informed of the entry by this Robin Hood. I'd bet it is a chippy employee, personally. Also, if the person had one modicum of respect for tax paying citizens doing something that, until it was banned was legal, they would have given the cache placer the chance to come claim the cache. It was labeled after all. This person knew how to find the site and post their little comments.

 

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Irvingdog/boo2.jpg

 

 

Ahhhh......the moist nose of a German Wirehaired Pointer!

---

[Rigour]

As a person who works in the business, I know that letter writing works.

 

Post the names and addresses of the appropriate political officials in this thread. I for one will write to them. If 10 more people do the same, I can almost guarantee something will happen. If 100 people do, I will guarantee it.

[hrdwareguy]

Here in Oklahoma, some of the people who work for the Parks and Recreation department started Geocaching. They thought it was a cool idea so they allow geocaches in the state parks. As far as i know, the only thing you have to do is let the park superintendant(?) know where you are placing the cache.

[+Criminal]

Well, there's that way too.............

 

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What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

[+15Tango]

Minnesota State Parks is already a topic that has been in the Midwest forum for some time, and I agree with Irvingdog, that guerrilla caching in off-limits areas is just going to be detrimental to our cause--we have to work with the Minnesota State DNR to show them that we are responsible adults and we'll work with them to place caches in proper locations and that we can be benificial to state parks by picking up litter, paying usage fees, volunteering for weekends of trail maintenance, etc. Like Irvingdog said, you'll attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. 15T

 

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