RossOlson Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Here are two examples!! http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=19862 August 14 by tmncali (11 found) Went today. All 3 Entrances to the road have AREA CLOSED signs posted. Heard it was a 5,000 to 10,000$$$$ fine for being in there so I decided to go and check out Mormon Rocks Cache. Also has sign posted but i pretended i didnt see it. Anthony Fontana, CA August 11 by FullOn (224 found) Drove up to this one with my 2WD truck, no problem (stuck to the fire road). Loks like the area is supposed to be closed, but I never let that stand between me and a geocache! Found it after just a couple of minutes looking. Nice hide! Great views up there. Lots of people out on Silverwood lake today. TNLN. Thanks for the cache! Here are two examples of people who will ruin it for the rest of us! This may upset some, but I will post things like this whenever I run accross them. The area is probaly closed due to the recent fires. Buy going into these areas you can slow down the recovery of the area, keeping it closed longer. Or giving more fuel to those who want to close everything to us. There are many trails closed in these areas because of people like these two!!! Ross Link to comment
+briansnat Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 As the sport grows you'll find more and more clueless people getting into it. Everything from folks like these who ignore "area closed" signs, to the guy who thought it was perfectly OK to drill a hole into a live tree to place a microcache. It's one of the downsides of the increasing popularity of Geocaching. The same thing happened with nearly every sport from backpacking to mountain biking. A handful of clueless and inconsiderate people decided that the rules (written or unwritten) weren't for them, causing the authorities to crack down on all participants. Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Unfortunately, players like that would probably be thrilled if caching was made illegal everywhere. That seems to be part of the thrill for them. They probably hate that people take their grandkids out caching, too. Link to comment
FullOn Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Actually I would not be happy if caching was made illegal everywhere. In fact, I am very much against geocaching being made illegal anywhere. I'm also against open attacks being made against others in the forums. How would you feel if you got to work and there was a post about you speeding, weaving in and out of traffic and making an illegal turn and people without any knowledge of who you are where making broad generalizations and unfounded negative comments? Not so long ago when I joined geocaching I used to log onto the forums and see helpful information from ClayJar, Markwell and Bunkerdave being posted on a regular basis. Notice that most of these people don't post to the forums much anymore. Another local geocacher who has been with this game for quite awhile has just left because of an altercation with someone in the forums. I, for one, think that an open discussion of closed areas on public land is a good one. Bashing others is not. While I'm not proud of what I did and my post to the cache was in hindsite innappropriate, I think that some of the comments in this discussion are uncalled for. Have fun. "I thought you said this was a quick find!" - My wife Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by FullOn:While I'm not proud of what I did and my post to the cache was in hindsite innappropriate, I think that some of the comments in this discussion are uncalled for. You are, of course, right on both counts. Nobody should make broad generalizations to base a personal attack in the forums. That being said, I have no problem with the basic crux of this thread. No cacher should enter posted property without permission. Discussing this issue in the forums (with or without specific examples) will help avoid this problem in the future and help ensure that this activity is not disallowed in more areas. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 Fullon, What you did was wrong and you knew it but you decided to anyway! Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubbertoe:If you wanna post em, that's fine with me... but how about keeping it to one forum? Btw, you'll probably have to post my caches to the list of "bad guys" because I didn't exactly get permission to place a few of them. I won't tell ya which ones though, you have to guess. - Toe. --==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==-- If you hide it in a private area that between you and the land owner. If you illeagal hide it in a public, well I am a member of the puplic and that makes it my business. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rubbertoe:If you wanna post em, that's fine with me... but how about keeping it to one forum? Btw, you'll probably have to post my caches to the list of "bad guys" because I didn't exactly get permission to place a few of them. I won't tell ya which ones though, you have to guess. - Toe. --==< http://home.columbus.rr.com/rubbertoe >==-- If you hide it in a private area that between you and the land owner. If you illeagal hide it in a public, well I am a member of the puplic and that makes it my business. Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:Fullon, What you did was wrong and you knew it but you decided to anyway! He admitted it, its done, please move on. Link to comment
FullOn Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Thank you, sbell111. I should have added your name to the list of well respected posters. My oversight. "I thought you said this was a quick find!" - My wife Link to comment
+Rockdoctors Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Hmmmmmm Not sure that authorities would blame the whole geocaching community because a few individuals decide to go against the park or recreation area rules/regulations. I think they would continue to fine them on an individual basis and go on. The majority of us hopefully know better. Posting them as you plan to is a great idea though. Its fun to see how self centred some of these people are. Where I live we call people like that trashy. Because they don''t give a sh... TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT Link to comment
+Web-ling Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 There was a cache (now archived) near me that was hidden 100 feet beyond a sign that reads, quote:Restricted area Entering by any person other than authorized City of Fort Worth personnel is forbidden, violators subject to arrest. The cache was found by 27 cachers, including 5 after I posted a Not Found with a description of the circumstances. Some of the cachers may have approached from the opposite direction, but not many, because there's no parking - unless they also ignored the "NO PARKING" signs. I went back a second time, took photos of the sign and posted them, and another cacher still found it before it was archived. We need to be careful, or we will be bringing a lot of our problems upon ourselves. Link to comment
+Rusty & Libby Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 I don't think somebody with 10 or 20 times as many forum posts as finds should be telling anyone anything! I do agree that the topic is worth is worth discussing but your methods are low ball. If you are such a intent on taking the low road and posting names you should have the common courtesy to invite those you are judging to join the conversation. I have been a member for almost 2 years and in that time these forums have turned to trash. Between the trolls and the cache police it's hardly worth visiting. Fullon - I recommend you only take advice from those that have never made an error. Oops! I guess that makes mine worthless too Nuff said, Rusty... Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Link to comment
+Rusty & Libby Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 I don't think somebody with 10 or 20 times as many forum posts as finds should be telling anyone anything! I do agree that the topic is worth is worth discussing but your methods are low ball. If you are such a intent on taking the low road and posting names you should have the common courtesy to invite those you are judging to join the conversation. I have been a member for almost 2 years and in that time these forums have turned to trash. Between the trolls and the cache police it's hardly worth visiting. Fullon - I recommend you only take advice from those that have never made an error. Oops! I guess that makes mine worthless too Nuff said, Rusty... Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 FullOn (and tmncali if you're reading) My apologies for jumping to the conclusions I did; I'm glad to know your current take on that post. It's not typical of my posts to bash others, and I like to think they're usually helpful. I've been actively working with and educating park officials in my area, helping to put a good public face on the game, so I overreacted to this post. While I believe the element I mentioned is out there, I'm glad to know you're not among them, and I'm sorry for accusing you of it. Link to comment
+Gliderguy Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 One thing many people may not think of ( I know I didn't until I saw something on the discovery channel about wildfires ) is an area closed for risk of fire is closed more for the user's protection than the land's protection. I saw some rather gruesome discriptions of how fast a fire can move uphill compared to a fit smokejumper. The average hiker who doesn't make a flame while walking (as in cigarette smoking or otherwise) adds about zero risk of a fire. The risk is in being caught uphill of an unknown fire that flares up suddenly and getting roasted alive. I am not a big proponent of government telling us what not to do, but these warnings don't usually go out unless the risk is serious. IE if there is a fire started below you, you are likely going to die. Some people may thrive on this kind of thing, but if they do, then Geocaching is probably too tame a sport from them and they need to take up something more extreme (maybe naked geodashing through known perverse areas with lots of poison ivy) Link to comment
+Gliderguy Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 One thing many people may not think of ( I know I didn't until I saw something on the discovery channel about wildfires ) is an area closed for risk of fire is closed more for the user's protection than the land's protection. I saw some rather gruesome discriptions of how fast a fire can move uphill compared to a fit smokejumper. The average hiker who doesn't make a flame while walking (as in cigarette smoking or otherwise) adds about zero risk of a fire. The risk is in being caught uphill of an unknown fire that flares up suddenly and getting roasted alive. I am not a big proponent of government telling us what not to do, but these warnings don't usually go out unless the risk is serious. IE if there is a fire started below you, you are likely going to die. Some people may thrive on this kind of thing, but if they do, then Geocaching is probably too tame a sport from them and they need to take up something more extreme (maybe naked geodashing through known perverse areas with lots of poison ivy) Link to comment
billwerth Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 This topic reminds me of a question I had while out looking for caches the other day. Last Saturday I visited four caches. Of the four, one had a sign that clearly stated that I was trespassing (unfortunately I didn't read it until I was going back to the car), the other was most likely on private property, since it wasn't in a park. What is the appropriate response to arriving at a cache site that you think may be hidden inappropriatly. Maybe because it is on private property or for some other reason? Link to comment
+briansnat Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote: I don't think somebody with 10 or 20 times as many forum posts as finds should be telling anyone anything! I don't think the number of finds has anything to do with the value of what the original poster had to say. He may have made his point in a manner that was heavy handed to some and my subsequent comments may have offended others. The fact remains however, that our sport is now under attack from some government agencies and environmentalists. Rogue Geocachers simply do not help our cause. We have to police ourselves and educate these people; lest we'll have the government doing it for us, more so than now. Perhaps publishing the offender's logs and names in these forums is not the best way accomplish this (at first). A nicely worded private e-mail should be the first contact. If that fails, then these forums ARE the appropriate place to go. And if someone asks you "what are you, the cache police?", say yes. "Life is a daring adventure, or it is nothing" - Helen Keller Link to comment
+Rusty & Libby Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:Perhaps publishing the offender's logs and names in these forums is not the best way accomplish this (at first). A nicely worded private e-mail should be the first contact. If that fails, then these forums ARE the appropriate place to go. And if someone asks you "what are you, the cache police?", say yes. Rusty & Libby's Geocache Page Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 I know some prominent cachers that are famous for finding ways around closed sign. Some people are willing to take the risk. They're willing to take the risk, and they know enough to shup up if their caught. Ranger: What are you doing here? Don't you know the park is closed? Cacher: Closed? I didn't realize it was closed? I'm so sorry. I'm leaving right now. Now the ranger either gives hims a ticket or gives him a warning. I really doubt geocaching would even come into the conversation. If they want to take the risk... go for it. george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
NightHiker Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Land use and area closed issues are a strange duck. If you preserve the land in pristine condition and no one can ever use it, what have we gained? On the other hand if every area were opened to all human and vehicular traffic we'd have a big mess on our hands. The best approach seems to be that you treat the outdoors like a friend's yard; you don't drive on his lawn, throw trash in his bushes, cut down or break things, etc. Granted some trails will develope in heavily traveled areas, but if we try to leave a place looking like we were never there I think land use would become a non-issue. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Rusty, I do this for a living. Don't confuse my lack of posts for lack of knowledge. I am not a die hard geocacher, I do in conjunction with other hobbies. "so I decided to go and check out Mormon Rocks Cache. Also has sign posted but i pretended i didnt see it." "Loks like the area is supposed to be closed, but I never let that stand between me and a geocache!" It was these two quotes that made me decide to post this. Ross Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Rusty, I do this for a living. Don't confuse my lack of posts for lack of knowledge. I am not a die hard geocacher, I do in conjunction with other hobbies. "so I decided to go and check out Mormon Rocks Cache. Also has sign posted but i pretended i didnt see it." "Loks like the area is supposed to be closed, but I never let that stand between me and a geocache!" It was these two quotes that made me decide to post this. Ross [This message was edited by RossOlson on August 21, 2002 at 06:05 PM.] Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson: quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Rusty, I do this for a living. Don't confuse my lack of posts for lack of knowledge. I am not a die hard geocacher, I do in conjunction with other hobbies. "so I decided to go and check out Mormon Rocks Cache. Also has sign posted but i pretended i didnt see it." "Loks like the area is supposed to be closed, but I never let that stand between me and a geocache!" It was these two quotes that made me decide to post this. Ross Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Rusty, I do this for a living. Don't confuse my lack of posts for lack of knowledge. I am not a die hard geocacher, I do in conjunction with other hobbies. "so I decided to go and check out Mormon Rocks Cache. Also has sign posted but i pretended i didnt see it." "Loks like the area is supposed to be closed, but I never let that stand between me and a geocache!" It was these two quotes that made me decide to post this. Ross Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 sorry for the multiple posts. I thought I was editing. Link to comment
+Alan2 Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 You know Ross I understand your concern about cache seekers "breaking the rules" but we are all human. I myself have hidden a bunch of caches breaking the rules because I have never asked permission first. I once removed a cache from a National Recreation Area (NRA) in all places Brooklyn! I found out you weren't suppose too and called the land manager aferwards. He asked me to remove it. I notice the one cache you hid is in Land Between The Lakes. As a designated MNational Recreation Area under the management of the USDA Forest Service, I'm not sure you can hide caches there either. Did you ask permission first? Or did you break the rules? There's been a number of forums on just this issue. Most people probably on the order of 80% or more never ask permission or rarely. I guess my point is before we all get too holy and start pointing fingers at everyone, we do the right thing first ourselves and trust others will do that too. Sort of following by good example if you know what I mean. Just my opinion. Alan Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Do you all know the difference between a closed area and being there without even know it? Geocaching. Awhile back I walked about a mile to a cache because a gate was locked. The sign said the road was ok for 4x4's etc. But the gate had no less than 8 locks on it. I figured the guy in the trailer living past the gate didn't like a public road running through his land. Still the trail had about 4 or more other entry systems and even if this had been posted as closed, you could have got there legitimatly via other means including hiking the mile that I did. For the record I have a 4x4 I like to use and a project in the garage that will be built up for trail running and rock crawling when it's close enough to done. I can't stand the jerks who make their own trails just to get 0.36 miles closer to the cache. We are on the same page, just have a different way to look at it. Lastly someone may not be obsessed with Geocaching as they do it with other hobbies, but I'd hate to think that one of the other hobbies was posting comments like you did to start this thread. Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 Recently I was wondering what would happen if I have my trail rig out and about and a fire was started near me. Now I know. Be lucky to get out. I have no problems if they close roads due to fire season, but I sure wish they had a website to let us know what's open or closed before I drive 150 miles to get there. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Renegade Knight:Recently I was wondering what would happen if I have my trail rig out and about and a fire was started near me. Now I know. Be lucky to get out. I have no problems if they close roads due to fire season, but I sure wish they had a website to let us know what's open or closed before I drive 150 miles to get there. I wish they did, we had to cancell a run up Cleghorn because of this. Luckliy somebody who lived close enough had driven by a couple days before and emailed everybody in my group about the it being closed. I have run into quite a few trials closed that show open on the forestry maps. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Alan2:You know Ross I understand your concern about cache seekers "breaking the rules" but we are all human. I myself have hidden a bunch of caches breaking the rules because I have never asked permission first. I once removed a cache from a National Recreation Area (NRA) in all places Brooklyn! I found out you weren't suppose too and called the land manager aferwards. He asked me to remove it. I notice the one cache you hid is in Land Between The Lakes. As a designated MNational Recreation Area under the management of the USDA Forest Service, I'm not sure you can hide caches there either. Did you ask permission first? Or did you break the rules? There's been a number of forums on just this issue. Most people probably on the order of 80% or more never ask permission or rarely. I guess my point is before we all get too holy and start pointing fingers at everyone, we do the right thing first ourselves and trust others will do that too. Sort of following by good example if you know what I mean. Just my opinion. Alan I talked to the people working in one of the outdoor centers and the rangers at Turkey Bay (OHV area inside Land Between the Lakes), they didn't know what I was talking about and didn't care. There only concern was that I didn't drive off the trails. I did check the cache regulary and removed it when I moved from the area. I feel if the lands are open we should be able to use them and I wish more areas were open to us. If it is not posted to stay out that is different it is easy for somebdoy to make a mistake, these areas are cleary posted, and they knew it, that is the difference. Ross Link to comment
Norm DePlume Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Rockdoctors:Not sure that authorities would blame the whole geocaching community because a few individuals decide to go against the park or recreation area rules/regulations. Perhaps you missed this thread or the newspaper article referenced by the first post in that thread. They want to ban Geocaching, and they can't even prove that any rules were even violated by cachers or anyone else. Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Ross How are you going to connect someone in a closed area to geocaching. Barbara Boxer is too busy raising money to be worried about someone who got a ticket in a closed area. People get fined every day. How many people in the LA area are getting caught without their 'outdoor passes'. Do you think they'll ban hiking because of it? No, they'll just collect the fines and go on with it. Now, if their is a cache in a closed area, then request that it be archived, bet get off the guys case who was a little ballsy and took the risk. If he gets caught then he'll pay the price but you are blowing this WAY out of proportion. george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 21, 2002 Author Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:Originally posted by georgeandmary: quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:georgeandmandy, Its not the authorities that are the concern, it people like Sen. Boxer and her supporters. Ross How are you going to connect someone in a closed area to geocaching. [They said they did it.] Barbara Boxer is too busy raising money to be worried about someone who got a ticket in a closed area. [she doesn't care about tickets, just closing areas] People get fined every day. How many people in the LA area are getting caught without their 'outdoor passes'.[????] Do you think they'll ban hiking because of it? [i haven't read anything about hiking, the impact of mountain biking, and horseback riding has been mentioned] No, they'll just collect the fines and go on with it. Now, if their is a cache in a closed area, then request that it be archived, [the area is temporaily closed] bet get off the guys case who was a little ballsy and took the risk. [i am responding to your post] If he gets caught then he'll pay the price but you are blowing this WAY out of proportion.[i feel strongly about this] george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/5867_200.gif Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted August 21, 2002 Share Posted August 21, 2002 quote:I know some prominent cachers that are famous for finding ways around closed sign. Some people are willing to take the risk. They're willing to take the risk, and they know enough to shup up if their caught. Ranger: What are you doing here? Don't you know the park is closed? Cacher: Closed? I didn't realize it was closed? I'm so sorry. I'm leaving right now. Now the ranger either gives hims a ticket or gives him a warning. I really doubt geocaching would even come into the conversation. If they want to take the risk... go for it. george Sorry but i have to disagree with some of your statement. Granted a year ago, even a few months ago, GeoCaching was barely even heard of. I think its a different ballgame now and if you "take the risk" and get caught with GPS in hand, then theres a good chance that GeoCaching would be supsected! Sure its a small thing this one time, but these small things sure are gonna add up. Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Mudfrog:I think its a different ballgame now and if you "take the risk" and get caught with GPS in hand, then theres a good chance that GeoCaching would be supsected! Sure its a small thing this one time, but these small things sure are gonna add up. Have a gps in your hand does not equate with geocaching. And their is no way to PROVE it. GPS's are getting used by all kinds of outdoor enthusiests. Again, how would you prove they were geocaching. Are you going to strip them and look for the cache print out. Until I get to the actual cache site.. I'm just hiking and theres no way to prove otherwise. In the LA national forest areas you know have to by an 'adventure pass' or what ever they call it, to use the woods. Hiking, biking, or geocaching. If you want to leave the road, you need the pass. You can't even park on the side of the road without one. Many people are upset and don't buy the passes. They go hiking without them. Does this 'ruin it for every one'? Will they ban hiking because of it? I don't think so. If the cache is in a closed area, then archive it. Otherwise it's up to the cacher on what kind of risk they want to take. Quit being his mommy. george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 22, 2002 Author Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by georgeandmary: quote:Originally posted by Mudfrog:I think its a different ballgame now and if you "take the risk" and get caught with GPS in hand, then theres a good chance that GeoCaching would be supsected! Sure its a small thing this one time, but these small things sure are gonna add up. Have a gps in your hand does not equate with geocaching. And their is no way to PROVE it. Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. http://img.Groundspeak.com/track/5867_200.gif So what you are saying is that if you can get away with go ahead and do. Right or wrong doesn't matter. Ross Link to comment
Rigour Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 There's a bit of an outlaw aspect to what we do, and we all draw the lines in different places at different times. I for one appreciate FullOn's saying that hey in retrospect he made a mistake and probably shouldn't have gone on. On the other hand (and here's where I am gonna get in trouble) I am not going to let a piece of wood with some symbols on it override my own judgement. I'm no anarchist (ok, maybe I am) but just because some schmo puts a sign up, that in and of itself doesn't alter my behaviour. It DOES make me stop and think. I say this because in re-reading posts from a hunt I did some time ago, I realized that I went right on past a "Trail Closed" sign, which on reflection I suspect I disregarded because it looked like it was old and meant that the "finished" trail was closed, not that the path the trail became after that was. And in part because I was on public lands, so a 6 inch sign someone put up last year isn't quite enough to make me abandon what I'm doing. But here's the thing: when I hunt a cache, I really start with a strong presumption that the cache has been placed properly and/or with permission. So a sign in and of itself is unlikely to stop me - I'm not likely to think "I shouldn't be here" unless I see a barrier which seems designed to stop ALL traffic of any kind - not just motorized vehicles. Link to comment
+Team Tecmage Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Maybe this wasn't the right way to handle this issue, but we do need to think about what we do. I think the Hiking analogy does not apply here- Hiking is understood and permitted. Yes, if someone doesn't have a permit they get fined. The ranger moves on. Geocaching is misunderstood (there are people that think placing a cache means burying it). If Geocaching is not permitted in a park and someone is caught in a closed area with a GPSR, the Ranger may not be able to prove that they were Geocaching, but if that Ranger has heard about an illegal activity called Geocaching, he or she might ACT anyway. Since when have people needed absolute proof before taking action? This isn't about being willing to take risks, having balls, or being someone's mommy. It's about thinking before you act. Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson: So what you are saying is that if you can get away with go ahead and do. Right or wrong doesn't matter. Ross Answer this... have you ever driven past the speed limit? george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
+Dan_Edwards Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 I really wish that when a agency closes a area they would have to post a message stating why, and who to contact if you have questions. I have seen public areas posted with keep out signs by people who don't like people using the public land near land they own. Because of this I sometimes doubt the legitimacy of some signs. That said, it usually not hard to find a route that is legitimate to use, it just might take a longer walk or some research. Those are my favorite caches, the ones you have to think to find. Dan A = A Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Team Tecmage (R&T):Maybe this wasn't the right way to handle this issue, but we do need to think about what we do. I think the Hiking analogy does not apply here- Hiking is understood and permitted. Yes, if someone doesn't have a permit they get fined. The ranger moves on. Geocaching is misunderstood (there are people that think placing a cache means burying it). If Geocaching is not permitted in a park and someone is caught in a closed area with a GPSR, the Ranger may not be able to prove that they were Geocaching, but if that Ranger has heard about an illegal activity called Geocaching, he or she might ACT anyway. Since when have people needed absolute proof before taking action? This isn't about being willing to take risks, having balls, or being someone's mommy. It's about thinking before you act. People are closing off areas to geocaching even without people going into closed areas. If rangers have misconception they have them with or without people getting caught. Look at Colorado Springs... idiots over there. They banned geocaching because someone might plant something harmful in a cache and they don't want to be liable. Someone might get hit by a car in the parking lot, same logic dictates they should not allow parking. National Parks have already caches banned and it's not because people were in closed areas. People weren't 'caught' with gps. They closed them beacuse of their own misconceptions that have nothing to do with closed areas. I'm involved with people who mountain bike and kayak and backpack and we know of many closed areas where we'd like to ride or hike or paddle. People often make the decision that they're going to go for it anyway and pay the fine if they get caught. Are they evil for it? They know the costs and accept it. Think before you act is not a problem, after you've thought about it and decided you're willing to take the risk, then what? This whole thread is about pointing at a cacher and saying "Look! He's being bad! Shame shame shame." george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
+briansnat Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:his whole thread is about pointing at a cacher and saying "Look! He's being bad! Shame shame shame." Yes Georgeandmary, this thread IS about that. The actions of a single rogue Geocacher will reflect on all of us. Where I live, mountain biking has been banned in many places. Why? Because a handful of MTBers decided not to play by the rules and rode in wet areas, skidded their tires and created unauthorized trails. Backpacking is also not allowed. Why? Because some backpackers decided to leave their litter behind and destroyed their campsites. Heck, we often can't even use park facilites like softball fields, shelters and picnic grounds without leaving a security deposit. Why? Because others abused the areas before us. Geocaching is undergoing a lot of scruitny from the authorities these days. If they find us to be law abiding and considerate as a group, it will help our cause. Geocachers who flout the law simply make things difficult for the rest of us. Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat: quote:his whole thread is about pointing at a cacher and saying "Look! He's being bad! Shame shame shame." Yes Georgeandmary, this thread IS about that. The actions of a single rogue Geocacher will reflect on all of us. Where I live, mountain biking has been banned in many places. Why? Because a handful of MTBers decided not to play by the rules and rode in wet areas, skidded their tires and created unauthorized trails. Backpacking is also not allowed. Why? Because some backpackers decided to leave their litter behind and destroyed their campsites. All that you listed are things that happend when trials where open. Closing MTB trails happens because of people with environmental plitical agendas that only want the woods available to themselves. Skidding is an excuse. If it wasn't skidding they would have found another excuse. Studies show that MTB's have relativily the same impact as hiking but people choose to ignore that and belive what they want. I don't know if you've ever met the TROLL Vandeman that used to hang out on mtb usenet sites list.. alt.mountainbike and rec.bicylcles.off-road. People like him have an agenda. Finding some hiking in a closed area, even with a gps in hand, does not automatically associate that person with geocaching. It associates them with hiking. george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
+Bear and Ting Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Mudfrog:Sorry but i have to disagree with some of your statement. Granted a year ago, even a few months ago, GeoCaching was barely even heard of. I think its a different ballgame now and if you "take the risk" and get caught with GPS in hand, then theres a good chance that GeoCaching would be supsected! Sure its a small thing this one time, but these small things sure are gonna add up. Sorry, but I would have to disagree with you. I've run into Park Rangers and Conservation Officers (CO) here in Indiana while hiking. After talking about many things, all the while with GPS in hand, the subject of geocaching is broughtup. However, 98% of the time (27 out of 28 since I started counting), it is brought up by me. Of those 27, only 2 had heard of geocaching. Now, I did learn something. Caching itself has been around for a long time. Caches were mainly food and supplies left, yet hidden, along the trail. They were either for the person who left them, or word was passed around where they could be found. One CO told me of remnants they found from the 1830's (and yes, it WAS in an Ammo Box... a very rotten wooden one). Anyway, the game is still srpeading, but it is not known as well as you may think, at least not in this area. Bear I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft. Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions! Link to comment
RossOlson Posted August 22, 2002 Author Share Posted August 22, 2002 Georgeandmary, You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over. Ross Link to comment
+Mudfrog Posted August 22, 2002 Share Posted August 22, 2002 Posted by georgeandmary: quote:Have a gps in your hand does not equate with geocaching. And their is no way to PROVE it. Its true that there are many that have never heard of GeoCaching, but if someone catches you that is familiar with the hobby, then its an assumption that could be had rather easily i would think. Lets see, GPSr in one hand, cache printout in the other, im searching for something, have some trade goods,,, hhmmmmmmmmmmm, not too obvious! Posted by Bear & Ting: quote:Sorry, but I would have to disagree with you. I've run into Park Rangers and Conservation Officers (CO) here in Indiana while hiking. After talking about many things, all the while with GPS in hand, the subject of geocaching is broughtup. However, 98% of the time (27 out of 28 since I started counting), it is brought up by me. Of those 27, only 2 had heard of geocaching. Yes, you are probably right about this. Whats bad is that it will be that one informed ranger, in that one closed area that catches that one "trespassing GeoCacher", that will be heard the loudest!!! Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 23, 2002 Share Posted August 23, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:Georgeandmary, You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over. Ross If you're going to start posting numbers then look at my find count. Those 700 posts come with over 300 finds. After a few hundred finds I think I've had enough experience to comment on some aspects of geocaching. I've see lots of different caches, lot's of different parks, lot's of different ways to hide a cache. I've found caches that are hours old and caches that are years old. I've seen what an area looks like after 1 find and what an area looks like after 100 finds. I've seen caches plundered, I've had caches plundered. I've met dozen of cachers from hundreds of square miles. I've received many many comments on the caches I've hidden some good some bad. So maybe I some background and room to talk. BTW.... 3/4 of those posts are from the local area board. Where I chat with a handful of local cachers and we just BS. We give each other a hard time, tell stories of caching, talk about our kids, and new ideas for caches. http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000938983&m=9790927054 There are over 800 replies on that thread. And that's the 3rd time we've started it, the two previous times we restarted after 500 replies. I think that says something about close knit group the central california valley cachers have become. There are only a handful of central valley cachers, but within that handful we have 3 of the top 20 cachers in the state, two of the top 3, and the #1 ranked cacher in california. That's out of over 3000 cachers in california. This is where I come from geocaching wise. You brought up numbers, I didn't! george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. [This message was edited by georgeandmary on August 23, 2002 at 11:04 PM.] Link to comment
+georgeandmary Posted August 24, 2002 Share Posted August 24, 2002 quote:Originally posted by RossOlson:Georgeandmary, You registered in Feb 2002, just over a 7 months ago and you have over 700 posts. I think you post just to post. You keep saying the samething over and over. Ross I've also hosted 2 GeoEents and attended a 3rd. That's where I actually get to gether with other cachers, IN PERSON. Geoevents are a way of strengthening the geocaching community. What exactly have you done? george Remember: Half the people you meet are below average. Link to comment
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