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Are Virtuals Totally Dead?


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I don't understand what is going on. Granted I have only had two caches approved so far, but our third one, a great virtual (GCH1P8 for those that can look, or I have posted the text at Take Me On A Roundabout) is being declined for no apparent reason. We have pleaded our case with TMJ, stating that placing a physical at any one of the 10 stages is impossible, only to be told that we have to make an offset to an 11th stage that contains a physical of some sort. This would totally destroy the whole idea of this cache and make it just another "find the box" cache.

 

The whole idea of this cache is to expose cachers to local artwork, politics and community issues. It requires a correct answer to gain credit, therby forcing one to learn about the most contirversial piece of artwork in Central Oregon. It also introduces cachers to other little know pieces of artwork along the way. It will enlighten them on local politics and community issues. It meets or exceeds any and all guidelines for a virtual, and contains many great componets of any cache.

 

Am I off my rocker, or does this cache deserve to be approved?

 

Shotgun

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter:

Are Virtuals Totally Dead?


Pretty much, yeah.

quote:
Am I off my rocker, or does this cache deserve to be approved?

IMHO, yes, it should be approved. However, I'm not in charge. Since there's no box of McToys at the end of the multi, TPTB have decided that it's not worth the title of "geocache".

 

Go post it on aNother site - I'm sure it'll get approved elsewhere.

 

--

Pehmva!

 

[sTATS IMAGE REMOVED BY OVERBEARING ADMINS]

 

Random quote:

[RANDOM QUOTE IMAGE REMOVED BY OVERBEARING ADMINS]

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quote:
We have pleaded our case with TMJ, stating that placing a physical at any one of the 10 stages is impossible, only to be told that we have to make an offset to an 11th stage that contains a physical of some sort. This would totally destroy the whole idea of this cache and make it just another "find the box" cache.

 

If you add the 11th leg, it will not be just another "find the box" cache. You will have led the cachers thru your 10 steps where they will learn just as much as they would have without the final cache. Instead of having them send you the correct answer to get credit, have them use it to decode the final coords.

 

______________________

Eamus Catuli!

ChiTown Cachers * Keenpeople.com Stats

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quote:
If you add the 11th leg, it will not be just another "find the box" cache. You will have led the cachers thru your 10 steps where they will learn just as much as they would have without the final cache.

 

But the eleventh leg would have to be to an "ordinary" cache location as it is impossible to place a physical at any of the original 10 locations. It would have nothing to do with the theme of this cache, therefor it would indeed make it just a "find the box" cache with a few twists.

 

I think the whole intent of this thread is not to discuss how to make this a physical cache, but why it does not meet the requirements of a virtual and as such why it is not being approved.

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter:

I think the whole intent of this thread is not to discuss how to make this a physical cache, but why it does not meet the requirements of a virtual and as such why it is not being approved.


 

Since virtuals don't really fit into the pat concept of geocaching (a cache box itself not being hidden), they are being discouraged in favor of physical caches. From what I can tell, this has come up within the last few of months. I have noticed several caches approved earlier this year that still conform to the old ways (ie, take a pic at the site, tell me what that sign say, etc.)

 

Those who are attempting to place a virtual will be encouraged/instructed to work a physical cache into virtual concept in some way.

 

I understand you've formulated your concept, put time into it.... its hard to have others steer you from your plans.

 

My only input is (for what its worth): have all the virtual legs as you planned, and do a final physical leg as TPTB 'suggest', and make it a themed cache (trade items only that match the subject).

 

Surely not what you wanted, but that's the way virtuals are going until TPTB actually give them their own section. icon_razz.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter: We have pleaded our case with TMJ, stating that placing a physical at any one of the 10 stages is impossible, only to be told that we have to make an offset to an 11th stage that contains a physical of some sort. This would totally destroy the whole idea of this cache and make it just another "find the box" cache.

 


 

Put a bison capsule somewhere, with no log book. Make the veificaqtion be the info you require, plus the color of the capsule.

 

That should play with their minds!

 

 

 

Cachin's a bit sweeter when you've got an Isha!

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This virtual clearly shows a lot of thought, and is definitely not your run-of-the-mill "mark some coordinates for a roadside plaque and post it as a cache" type of virtual. However, I disagree that adding a final stage that takes you to a traditional cache in a park nearby would destroy the whole idea of the cache. In fact, you could put a sheet explaining the significance of the pieces of art in the final cache box and educate the seeker as to the political and community issues involved with the pieces. Then, in addition to getting to visit the spots, they also have a cache to hunt at the end - the best of both worlds.

 

Note also that when setting up a virtual cache, you should ensure that a visit to the spot(s) is necessary in order to arrive at the answer to the verification question. I was quite easily able to determine the answer to your cache sitting here at my computer several hundred miles away:

 

Phoenix Rising

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter:

I think the whole intent of this thread is not to discuss how to make this a physical cache, but why it does not meet the requirements of a virtual and as such why it is not being approved.


 

Well, if you refuse to add the last leg you'll need to follow Cruizin's suggestion.

 

______________________

Eamus Catuli!

ChiTown Cachers * Keenpeople.com Stats

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What really gets me is that a physical cache does not require any traded items (McToys) at all to be approved. It only requires a physical log bog, thats all. What's the point? Why is a physical log book so important? I could make an 11th leg micro with a log book, our email address and the answer, but still make it an "email me to get credit" and this cache would probably approved. I just don't get it...

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter:

What really gets me is that a physical cache does not require any traded items (McToys) at all to be approved. It only requires a physical log bog, thats all. What's the point? Why is a physical log book so important? I could make an 11th leg micro with a log book, our email address and the answer, but still make it an "email me to get credit" and this cache would probably approved. I just don't get it...


Why is a physical logbook so important? Because that is the main point of the site.

 

I think it would be nice if you did what Moun10Bike suggested and put some explainations of what was seen along the way in a final cache. You have made a multi-cache so it seems easy to get a cache at the end of it. I don't see a final container as a let down but rather as a place to write my impressions of how good the cache was so the cache owner can see it later when he checks the cache. I like to read the logbooks in my caches.

 

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

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quote:
The whole idea of this cache is to expose cachers to local artwork, politics and community issues. It requires a correct answer to gain credit, therby forcing one to learn about the most contirversial piece of artwork in Central Oregon. It also introduces cachers to other little know pieces of artwork along the way. It will enlighten them on local politics and community issues.

 

I don't see how it does any of this. Asking people to count objects at certain coordinates isn't particularly educational. Perhaps certain objects at each of the locations are of interest, but many geocachers are just gonna count and move on to the next coordinates. Mount10bike's suggestion is an excellent one and I think would actually enhance the experience, not "destroy" it.

 

Instead of whining, why don't you just work with the admins to make this cache happen?

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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What I'd do with this is to fill a cracked Rubbermaid container full of dirty golf balls, chewed-up Army men, sticky lollipops, dead bugs, and rainwater. Place that as the final stage. That makes it a physical cache and therefore a much more satisfactory Geocaching Experience that would be acceptable to TPTB.

 

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

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There is nothing in the official geocaching rule that sprang into existence the day the first cache was placed that said "Thou Shalt Not Have Virtual Caches"

 

The decision to favor traditional caches is a site decision. It has nothing to do with "Putting the Cache back in Caching" or any of a thousand other excuses that people can come up with. This sport is young we can't even define the limits of what geocaching is.

 

A virtual cache is approvable or not as it stands. Making it into a multi cache is just a cheap compromise to force fit a virtual cache into some semblance of a traditional. Will it get the cache approved? Probably. Would it become a truly worthy part of the cache? Probably not.

 

The bottom line is they should just end the controversy and put a moratorium on the dang things so the question quits coming up. After all, GC.com is a listing service that doesn’t like virtual caches. Don’t keep the category and give cache owners false hopes.

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I had a planned set of Virtuals (a Virtual Tour) dealing with the Earp Family in the San Bernardino Area, it all started with a physical cache placed by Deezul Come see where an old west legend once lived which had been Dursleyed (deliberately sabotaged by outsiders). When I submitted the tour locations, a gravesite tour, the local admin at first denied the postings, and wanted a physical cache.

 

I explained my PLAN for the tour, and after agreeing to re-establish a cache at Deezuls archived cache, the plan was approved, the other 3 virtuals are now approved separately verified virtuals, and the TOUR includes Deezul's cache at the homestead. Each of the four caches links to the others on the tour.

 

It is a successful series of "interesting" places.

 

Bending to conform to the rules (and approvers) can really work for the whole concept

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogist

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quote:
Originally posted by Bo Peep & The Sheep:

I had a planned set of Virtuals (a Virtual Tour) ......(snip)


 

Interesting.... resurrecting a traditional may garner brownie points in the virtual department, as these seem like the kinds of virts that generally wouldn't get accepted now.

Or is it the tour concept that won it over?

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It's your cache you make the rules. Add a micro cache at the end, but to get credit for the find players still have to email you the info you want. It's not a perfect world and this is not a perfect site. Compromise a bit, get what seems to be a great cache approved and be happy. Don't try and make sence out of it. You'll just make yourself loco trying.

 

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

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I( can not say for certain what the convincer was, although the TOUR would have been accepted as a MULTI. These are individuals, so you don't have to hit them all for credit, so I would say it was the TOUR concept. I also have a local Route 66 Tour. But with one exception these are all traditionals.

 

It starts at the ORIGINAL McDonalds and Route 66 museum, and goes to another Route 66 Museum

 

Route 66 / McToy museum

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THIS is the PUBLIC face of Geocaching, when someone learns of the sport this is where they come to

learn more, what are YOU showing them?

http://blacksheep.rootsweb.com/

International Black Sheep Society of Genealogist

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I think what Shotgund and Pea Shooter was concerned about is that they might not be able to find a location near enough to the virtual to place a logbook that wouldn't seem anticlimatic after the locatins already visited. Are any of the stops in a museum? Could you not use the guest register at one of the museums as a logbook? I've heard that method has been used for virt verification in NP's.

 

[This message was edited by Bloencustoms on March 32, 1999 at 25:60 PM]

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I would suggest giving a little information about the various waypoints on the cache page, so that cachers can enjoy it as they progress through the cache. Finding out about it a day later takes away from the dynamics of the cache.

 

Take a look at my Urban Jungle cache and see how I give a little info about each stop without giving away the identity of each waypoint. You should be able to have the cachers discover the name of the final piece of artwork and then make one more calculation using this name to find a nearby micro. Putting the effort into placing a micro at the end and giving cachers some satisfaction of signing a logbook will make it more enjoyable for the hunters.

 

The extra challenge and effort of turning this into a physical cache will give you some great satisfaction when you read the logs from other cachers. Urban micros are a lot harder to place than putting an ammo can out in the desert and can be more rewarding as well. Hope it works out for you, and on my next trip over to Redmond to visit the rest of the Moondog team, we'll try to hit the cache.

 

_________________________________

Moondog3.com - Portland Geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:

I don't see a final container as a let down but rather as a place to write my impressions of how good the cache was so the cache owner can see it later when he checks the cache. I like to read the logbooks in my caches.


 

Whether or not a final container is a letdown probably has a lot to do with the structure of the cache as a whole. In some cases, I'm sure it is perfectly suitable, in others, a complete anticlimax.

 

As to the comments, surely the online logging, plus the private emails to confirm the location, can give you the same pleasure? I actually find that my virt emailers are more responsive and interesting than my trad cache loggers.

 

By the way, I do make my loggers in one of my virts sign a visitor's book (and I do check), but due to the nature of the book, comments are generally limited to a word or two. The emails and online logs have the good stuff.

 

evilrooster

http://www.bookweb.sunpig.com

-the email of the species is deadlier than the mail-

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In the beginning...there were few caches. GC said..."let there be a website to sort and catalog these caches"...and it was good. The website needed caches to populate the pages so that users would come. On the second day...GC created Virtual caches...and it was good. Between virts and trads the website soon became populated and the users came in droves...and it was good. On the third day GC got the bandwidth bill as the server overloaded with virtual caches...and it was not good. On the 4th day GC severely restricted virtuals...they had served their purposes, and with a gazillion users placing caches, they just we're needed anymore. On the 5th day the users cried out "How come my virtual wasn't approved?"...and now you know...the...rest of the story.

 

Good day.

 

"Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!"

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quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:

I don't see a final container as a let down but rather as a place to write my impressions of how good the cache was so the cache owner can see it later when he checks the cache. I like to read the logbooks in my caches.

 


 

Ah yes the pleasure of seeing those little stickers from those cache machine events.

The joy of reading, (10-9-03 Cacher X) in a micro.

Just like going to the library.

 

 

 

Cachin's a bit sweeter when you've got an Isha!

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quote:
Originally posted by Ish-n-Isha:

quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:

I don't see a final container as a let down but rather as a place to write my impressions of how good the cache was so the cache owner can see it later when he checks the cache. I like to read the logbooks in my caches.

 


 

Ah yes the pleasure of seeing those little stickers from those cache machine events.

The joy of reading, (10-9-03 Cacher X) in a micro.

Just like going to the library.


Even with a micro, yep. I like seeing the order of finds. I like to see who got there first and how many got there on the first, second and third days, etc. Each logbook tells the story of the cache in a different way. When I am seeking a cache I don't sit down and read a cache page's logs until I get back since I don't want spoilers. Usually I don't read the description in my PDA unless I am stumped but rather get a quick feel if the cache is a traditional or virtual, etc. That burns me from time to time, like the other day when I thought I was looking at night for what I thought was a traditional and it was a micro. I guess even a cache machine would be interesting to me to see how many people visited my cache in a single day. I'm not in the upper west though, so I wouldn't know much about the cache machines.

 

mtn-man... admin brick mason

"approver of all trades" -- per Woodsters Outdoors

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quote:
Originally posted by mtn-man:

Why is a physical logbook so important? Because that is the main point of the site.


I don't want this to come off wrong just wondering- what does a physical log have to do with a website on the internet (a concept that is by it's very nature 'virtual')? If everything is pretty much on the honor system what difference does a log matter? There are many who don't sign and many who don't log it here and many placers who don't check one against the other. If all that is required then you really need to start enforcing those 'rules', but I don't think GC.com has the manpower to do so, so it is left up to the cache owners. And if they are enforced so strictly people are going to demand stats even more because I think it will just accentuate the competitiveness. I just don't see why not to let vituals exsist just in a category their own, like benchmarks (and locationless should be handled the same way).

 

Remember, wherever you go- there you are!

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Virtuals were created specifically for places where a physical cache would not be permitted, like in a National Park. They have not be eliminated entirely but they must meet the guidelines. One of those guidelines is:

 

quote:
Prior to considering a virtual cache, you must have given consideration to the question “why a regular geocache – perhaps a micro or only a log book - couldn’t be placed there?” If there is a good answer, then it may be a valid virtual cache opportunity. Also, consider making the location a step in a multi-stage cache, with the physical cache placed in an area that is appropriate.

 

You have heard several good suggestions on how to make this into a multi-cache that keeps the theme of the virtual you have designed. Many of these would make this a top notch cache.

 

As far as why is a log book so important, a virtual is something that is already there. There isn't much hunting/searching involved with most virtuals I have done. In your cache description you even suggest that this can be done with out leaving the comfort of your car. That is not geocaching, it's sightseeing. Caching is one person hiding something and challenging others to try and find it.

 

I enjoy a good cache that allows me to expand my mind, but I also want the satisfaction of finding something that most people walk by everyday and never realize it's there.

 

TMJ--Admin.

 

_________________________________________________________

Don't mind us, we're just looking for tupperware in this bush.

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

That could never happen with a virtual eh?


_NO._


 

Please tell me you're kidding. That's the point of a good virtual cache, IMHO.

 

Certainly, neither of the two I've placed are about obvious things. The object of one quest is about the size of a dinner plate, hidden between a statue and a wall. The other is substantially smaller, at the back of an exhibit that even most locals don't know about, much less the tourists who pass by every day.

 

I made them virtual because I wanted people to find those specific objects, as well as go to a given place.

 

evilrooster

http://www.bookweb.sunpig.com

-the email of the species is deadlier than the mail-

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quote:
Originally posted by evilrooster:

Please tell me you're kidding. That's the _point_ of a good virtual cache, IMHO.


There's nothing humble about your opinion.

 

quote:
Certainly, neither of the two I've placed are about obvious things. The object of one quest is about the size of a dinner plate, hidden between a statue and a wall. The other is substantially smaller, at the back of an exhibit that even most locals don't know about, much less the tourists who pass by every day.

Blah, blah, blah....

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

That could never happen with a virtual eh?


 

_NO._


 

Amazing insight into the situation! I have completely revised my opinion on these leechs of geocaching who want us to take notice of some of the amazing plaques denoting true American history across our ordinary commuter trails! Down with virtuals, leatherman has shown us the way!

 

icon_rolleyes.gif

 

Seriously, there are tons of things in the City of Boston (not even adding in Brookline, Cambridge, Somerville, etc) that are really really interesting if you only knew to look for them there. Is there a good reason that I should have to leave an ammo box in a flower bed or desecrate a graveyard downtown just to satisfy the weakly-veiled personal hangups of the owners of *this* site?

 

***

Excuse #32: A virtual fills an area where a physical cache could be placed by another cacher at a later date.

 

De-bunking: Anyone could place a physical cache there if they like at a later date and the virtual would be archived from having a lower priority. Thus could be the danger of placing virtuals.

 

***

 

--

 

http://magazine.audubon.org/features0101/goodwood.html

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quote:
Anyone could place a physical cache there if they like at a later date and the virtual would be archived from having a lower priority. Thus could be the danger of placing virtuals.


 

A policy like that would go over real well icon_rolleyes.gif . You think the banning of images in sig lines caused an uproar.

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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It was only one way in which virtuals and physicals could exist without imposition on those that the site owners feel are more important.

 

Personally, I don't see why I couldn't bag a virtual and then turn to my right and open a container and get someone else's physical two seconds later.

 

As long as I'm not tripping over tupperware just because I stepped out my front door, then we haven't hit saturation yet.

 

--

 

http://magazine.audubon.org/features0101/goodwood.html

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quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

Personally, I don't see why I couldn't bag a virtual and then turn to my right and open a container and get someone else's physical two seconds later.

 


 

Ditto.

 

Don't forget that just as some don't like virtuals, many don't like multi's. Heck some can not pyhsically get to or complete a multi. If the object of geocaching is for someone to find something that is hidden, then I would think those that are rated anything under a 3 don't really fall into those guidelines. Heck we even basically tell them where to look in the hints and what to look for. Then we give them exact coordinates as well to the container we told them that they are looking for. At a properly placed virtual, they have to search for an answer there, which to me is like searching for the container at a physical caches location. Some answers required to verify a virtual are a little harder than others. Just as some physical caches are a little tougher than others. Given all that, there is not much difference between that and a virtual. Except a physical has a log book. At least if a virtual is being done properly, the owner is receiving feedback via answering the email that they get with the verifying answers.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

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quote:
I was quite easily able to determine the answer to your cache sitting here at my computer several hundred miles away:

 

Very polite and responsible of an administrator to give out an answer in this forum. Even more amazing is that this is the very same link (out of many available) I submitted with my pleading to the administrator. I also find it interesting that this administrator lives in Washington, and has placed caches in Pennsylvania, Idaho, Mexico, Canada, Germany, could these have been placed during a vacation? I am wondering if all of us have to play by the same rules?

 

quote:
In your cache description you even suggest that this can be done with out leaving the comfort of your car. That is not geocaching, it's sightseeing. Caching is one person hiding something and challenging others to try and find it.


 

Interesting how I have never seen a requirement for hiking for any type of cache. I guess those micros that are placed under a park bench that you can park 5 feet from constitute a challenge. I guess the real challenge of geocaching is being literate enough to write your name on a piece of paper. (Most micro's don't even have a log book, just a list of names). Never mind the fact that we have handicaped geocachers and something like this would really appeal to them, I guess we like to discriminate. If you can't walk 5 miles to find a piece of paper to sign, you are not considered a geocacher...

 

Well folks, I am finished with my ramblings, and as J&MBella has said "Don't try and make sence out of it. You'll just make yourself loco trying", this cache will be modified to meet the dictators rules. [edit] stupid remark not worth posting [edit] Some things are worth fighting, others are not...

 

[This message was edited by Shotgun & Pea Shooter on October 15, 2003 at 07:48 AM.]

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quote:
I also find it interesting that this administrator lives in Washington, and has placed caches in Pennsylvania, Idaho, Mexico, Canada, Germany, could these have been placed during a vacation? I am wondering if all of us have to play by the same rules?

 

Yes, the admins have to play by the same rules. Those caches were placed before the "no vacation caches" rule was implemented and as such, were grandfathered in...just as they were for everyone else.

 

quote:
Well folks, I am finished with my ramblings, and as J&MBella has said "Don't try and make sence out of it. You'll just make yourself loco trying", this cache will be modified to meet the dictators rules. After all, this is not an American game, it is a worldwide game and as such, the power of democracy bows to the powers of dictatorship. Some things are worth fighting, others are not...

 

Actually things do make sense. This website has chosen to discourage virtuals for reasons that they (and many other geocachers) feel are valid.

 

Apparently some people insist on listing their cache, their way, instead of complying with this website's guidelines. Instead of working with the admins to make their cache acceptable, they

stomp around like a two year old and start calling them names. Dictator is one of the nicer ones I've seen.

 

As I see it, they explained the guidelines to you and tried to work with you to bring the cache into compliance. This apparently wasn't good enough for you, so you resorted to whining, moaning and name calling. What, is this a freakin' kindergarten?

 

"You can't make a man by standing a sheep on his hind legs. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position, you can make a crowd of men" - Max Beerbohm

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quote:
Apparently some people insist on listing their cache, their way, instead of complying with this website's guidelines. Instead of working with the admins to make their cache acceptable, they start calling them names. Dictator is one of the nicer ones I've seen.

 

We don't have a problem working inside of the rules, which is what started this whole debate for us. There is nothing in this cache that is outside of the stated rules, that is my whole point. We placed this cache going by the guidelines posted, and that turns out not to be good enough. We are forced to go beyond the stated rules, and comply with the requests of the admins, and as stated, that is exactly what we are going to do. We (as suggested on this site) have challenged the admins here in this forum, and their opinion has not changed. Therefore we will modify our cache to meet their requests. How is this "insisting" our cache be approved?

 

[This message was edited by Shotgun & Pea Shooter on October 15, 2003 at 07:49 AM.]

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I never liked virtual caches myself. I just placed a cache (my first regular cache) for Halloween and it was approved immediately. I thought I was going to have to wait days or something, but within an hour it was up. I was pretty happy about that considering how many caches I have seen here on the forums getting denied I was a little anxious about it. I mean, if a cache is sent in to be approved, it should be approved. If there seems to be some sort of "I wonder if that's safe" or whatever about the cache, then geocaching.com should send out an approved cache investigator in the area to check it out. That might take all of a day considering how many people are geocaching no?

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Shotgun and Pea Shooter have a valid reason for their opinions as well.

 

No the approvers don't have to play by the same rules, technically speaking. As mtn-man would call it, it's splitting hairs. But for example, approvers can approve their own caches. Not playing the same as I see it, but that is a different story.

 

As far as the grandfather bit, my opinion is that there should not be any grandfathered in caches. They cause problems now when people's caches are denied for the same reasons that the grandfathered ones are still around for. A person does not know when some rule came about and caused it be grandfathered generally. Was there one date for grandfathering all the caches that violate all the rules of today or were there several dates for the several different rules?

 

I agree with the fact that a business can change it's rules to adapt better to it's mission, but I think that sometimes it's done on a different basis. I could see the change on virtuals if there was a safety concern of some sort, like the RR track rule for instance. But when you have "grandfathered" caches out there that are within the violation of todays standard, does it really make a difference? For example, if a cache 2 years ago was placed next to a RR track, becuase either it was dangerous or because of trespassing issues with the RR companies. oes that mean if it is grandfathered that it still isn't dangerous or vioalting a trespassing rule?

 

Vacation caches are entirely different aspect of it. My definition of a vacation cache is a cache that is willfully "dropped" with no intent of being able to keep it properly maintained. To me, there is not a play of distance in that. There are so many variables that with distances and what people refer to as a vacation. But, because someone placed a cache years ago at a place where they have no intent of properly maintaining it, does not make it right to keep it around today. It's become litter then. It may still be active and people are still finding it, but it's basically litter. Have the rules changed to state that caches should be properly maintained in the last year? Was that not an aspect of the rules then?

 

Not trying to arrogant, it's just part of the frustrations that people are facing today. And it won't get any better until things are more solid.

 

Now on the virtual thing. People have said they don't like virtuals, many have said that they do. I think the same goes with every different type of cache out there. The thing is, if one of a certain type shows up in your area that you don't like doing, then pass it up. It's much easier for those that are premium members and that use the PQ's. We can do that. I agree to put virtuals in their own area. My reason is that they are different from a physical hidden container and shouldn't fall in to the distance rule with physical hidden container caches. As someone else stated, you aren't stumbling over each others tupperware. Personally a virtual caceh would not be a bad thing to me. Especially in places that get adverse weather and finding a hidden container is not feasible. They are also great to see things that you have never seen before. Sometimes the virtuals are in guidebooks, but many times they aren't. How many guidebooks actually give you the coordinates to them as it is? The virtuals do give "sightseeing" a more fun approach. I would appreciate and welcome people posting interesting places to see. I've even set up a place on my message board to share these interesting virtual places, that generally won't get approved here. I encourage others that enjoy virtuals like this to take advantage of it. Will I find them all interesting? No, not necessarily, but I can't decide if a physical cache is going to be lame until I do it either. I'm done.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

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quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

 

Seriously, there are tons of things in the City of Boston (not even adding in Brookline, Cambridge, Somerville, etc) that are really really interesting if you only knew to look for them there. Is there a good reason that I should have to leave an ammo box in a flower bed or http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?pf=&ID=89231&decrypt=y&log= downtown just to satisfy the weakly-veiled personal hangups of the owners of *this* site?


 

:) I think I have a solution for the virtual cache issue. Place your 11th (or whatever leg) of your cache here N24 34.076 W82 06.272 or here N19 25.188 W155 17.247 or here N38 53.969 W77 02.177, whichever is closer. We do have central locations for travel bugs that are MIA, why not a central Virtual cache leg. icon_razz.gif

 

On a serious note, I love multi-leg historical or educational caches. Then again, I love to learn new things. One of my favorite caches so far (we're only up to 200 finds) was And then there were 13. My parents even liked this one. The problem with dropping a cache is authority. Isn't one of the rules for dropping a cache to get permission to place the cache from the land owner? What if you are in an historic park trying to teach a lesson (moving from one site to the next seemingly unrelated site), you ask permission and they say "no"? Should you abandon the cache? If the point here is that this cache is trying to teach, should you just drop a box somewhere else that has nothing to do with the lesson? Sure, in Indiana and other states, the state run website has a list and location of historical markers, but does it have a history lesson for what is NOT on the marker?

 

I feel we need to lighten up on the virtual caches rules and rethink them. I offered a suggestion before that perhaps virtual caches should be something in their own right, like benchmarks are. Let us keep this game fun for the kids (and adults) and also, maybe, perhaps, make it a little educational too.

 

Bear & Ting

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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quote:
Originally posted by Shotgun & Pea Shooter:

quote:
In your cache description you even suggest that this can be done with out leaving the comfort of your car. That is not geocaching, it's sightseeing. Caching is one person hiding something and challenging others to try and find it.

Interesting how I have never seen a requirement for hiking for any type of cache. I guess those micros that are placed under a park bench that you can park 5 feet from constitute a challenge.


Geocaching is an outdoor activity, it is generally accepted that you need to get out of your car to find a cache. Some hikes are long, others are short.That's what the terrain rating is for.

quote:
I guess the real challenge of geocaching is being literate enough to write your name on a piece of paper. (Most micro's don't even have a log book, just a list of names).

A list of names IS a logbook. Go to the the Grand Canyon (virtual caches only allowed here) and find the visitor logbook. It is a list of names (and address) but no room for more than a couple of words as a comment. How is this different from a microcache logbook? It's not!

quote:
Never mind the fact that we have handicaped geocachers and something like this would really appeal to them, I guess we like to discriminate. If you can't walk 5 miles to find a piece of paper to sign, you are not considered a geocacher...

Don't presume to know what appeals to the handicapped. They are people too. Some like geocaching, and some like sightseeing. Someone that likes geocaching doesn't necessarily like sightseeing regardless of handicapped status. Not every cache requires a 5 mile hike. I have 188 finds and NONE of them have required a five mile hike.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

Amazing insight into the situation! I have completely revised my opinion on these leechs of geocaching who want us to take notice of some of the amazing plaques denoting true American history across our ordinary commuter trails! Down with virtuals, leatherman has shown us the way!


 

Glad to have enlightened you. tongue.gif

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I've given virtuals some thought recently, after reading these posts. Generally I don't do them unless there happens to be one nearby a regular cache location, and I have yet to find one that gave me near the sense of satisfaction associated with finding a real cache. I do have one virtual cache that probably would not have been approved under the current rules, which would not have bothered me -- I'd just put out a micro (and probably replace it frequently).

 

The interesting thing is that the concept of cache ('a hiding place for concealing and preserving provisions or implements' 'a secure place of storage'), when used a noun, has a pretty specific meaning -- much like a treasure chest. It is a physical thing that is hidden, with something else inside that you are looking for -- some items to trade and/or a log to sign.

 

In contrast, finding a virtual cache is just driving or walking to a point based on its Lat / Lon and then observing it. In my experience virtuals are not "hidden objects" once you get to their coordinates.

 

Perhaps virtual hunting should be called something different than cache hunting. I suppose the same goes for reverse caches.

 

I'd have no problem if GC.com changed the system of adding up finds to include only the real caches. It would reduce my total by about 10, and the other things, not called caches, could be listed in another category.

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Seems we're all (for the most part) agreed that virtuals are enjoyable and should remain, but that they need their own section.

 

Do any admins know if this is being seriously considered for the future? Can someone Markwell me to a sorta-solid answer if there is one?

 

We understand it is hard to run this huge site and keep everyone happy, but I guess if we knew something definitive it might lessen the amount of fussing from us virtual-ites icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by MountainMudbug:

Seems we're all (for the most part) agreed that virtuals are enjoyable and should remain, but that they need their own section.

 

Do any admins know if this is being seriously considered for the future? Can someone Markwell me to a sorta-solid answer if there is one?

 

We understand it is hard to run this huge site and keep everyone happy, but I guess if we knew something definitive it might lessen the amount of fussing from us virtual-ites icon_biggrin.gif


 

Ditto...with them having their own section, then everyone is happy. People who wanna do them, can. Those who don't want to, don't have to go to their section and look at them.

 

What gets me is that is that it appears as if the fact of their presence offends some.

 

Brian

www.woodsters.com

 

My Stats

Found: 70

Hidden: 2

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quote:
Originally posted by hikemeister:

In contrast, finding a virtual cache is just driving or walking to a point based on its Lat / Lon and then observing it. In my experience virtuals are not "hidden objects" once you get to their coordinates.


 

Maybe the virtual creators in New England are a little more crafty than FL? icon_smile.gif

 

One virtual I have done was a walk-and-see but the view of Boston from this tower in Mt. Auburn Cemetary (*and* the Cemetary itself) was amazing. But one virtual in Bar Harbor/Acadia was a plaque nailed into the rocky shoreline commemorating a boy who drowned during a storm in a sea cave. If I hadn't done this virtual, there would have been no way of knowing about the sea cave (which was pretty cool!)...about the plaque (it was bronze on red rocks on a grey day and about 50 feet from the 'trail')...or about the fact that the seawall is the highest natural seawall on the Atlantic coast! Would either of these two virtuals have been better off being a physical? Well, the Acadia one is NPS land, so not even a question. The other one also has the start of another cache in the cemetary. You get information on a woman buried there to get coordinates for a cache a few miles away in a park. If this had been a virtual, it would have been very interesting to do nonetheless (since what makes her famous is really cool...but part of the cache, so I can't say here). Instead, it's a "multi/offset" and after finding out all sorts of cool stuff about this woman and her family, I still had to go trailwalking and searching in the rocks for a cache...which felt quite a bit disconnected from the intent of the rest of the cache.

 

If you wanted to play dirty, shotgun, I'd tell them that you've set up a micro....and after it's approved, you just edit the text to what you originally had. The only difference will be the "multi" designation instead of the "virtual" one.

 

--

 

http://magazine.audubon.org/features0101/goodwood.html

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quote:
Originally posted by ju66l3r:

If you wanted to play dirty, shotgun, I'd tell them that you've set up a micro....and after it's approved, you just edit the text to what you originally had. The only difference will be the "multi" designation instead of the "virtual" one.


That's not even funny, ju66l3r. The approval process is there for the benefit of geocachers. Side-stepping the system will get you in trouble.

 

Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness

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