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Plan to Eliminate the Pirates: Yea or Nay


Pantalaimon
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Although I am still on the fence about the pirate debate, I recognize the validity in some of the "con" arguments.

 

So, I am in the process of formulating a plan for eventual minimization of the pirates effect on the game, and perhaps a way to take the wind out of their sails. The plan would involve agreed upon deletion of threads, alteration of logs, and an eventual cleansing of all things geocaching that reference any pirate activity, past, present or future. It would also involve work to stay on top of new information that is posted, and contacting the owners of caches and threads for the cleansing of such references.

 

Before I propose my plan to TPTB, however, I'd like to get a sense that a simple majority of people think the pirates' plans should be minimized as much as possible, by way of ignoring them.

 

So, please vote here, whether the plan should be presented to TPTB. All I ask is that:

 

1. You vote yes or no, without justifications;

 

2. You vote BOTH by clicking the vote AND saying what your vote was in a reply post. (I want to know what people's votes are, and I want to know that sock puppets aren't voting on different computers.) I will look at the poll results for quick reference, but THE ONLY VOTES THAT WILL MATTER ARE THE ONES POSTED IN A REPLY.

 

Poll Question: Should Geocaching.com attempt to counteract the effect of the pirates by maintaining an organized effort to cleanse the site (cache pages, threads, ect.) of any reference to their activities?

 

Pan

 

[Edit: When I say "agreed upon deletion" of posts and threads that mention the pirate, I mean that the posts and threads are altered or deleted with the original posters permission. - P]

 

[This message was edited by Pantalaimon on September 22, 2003 at 11:59 AM.]

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Yea! FTV!!

 

I regularly avoid the pirate threads because I feel the best way to combat their nonsense is not to play into it.

Discussing them (in public) and the annoyances they are causing only increses their feelings of accomplishment.

I recommend starting a private topic to discuss this further.

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow action-smiley-076.gif

And may no Admin bricks 19490_2600.gif fly your way

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quote:
The plan would involve agreed upon deletion of threads, alteration of logs, and an eventual cleansing of all things geocaching that reference any pirate activity, past, present or future

Yes, and we could start right here with this thread (no offense Pantalaimon).

 

ingeo-button2.gifbad_boy_a.gifpuke.gif

 

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

 

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

 

.

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quote:
The plan would involve agreed upon deletion of threads, alteration of logs, and an eventual cleansing of all things geocaching that reference any pirate activity, past, present or future. It would also involve work to stay on top of new information that is posted, and contacting the owners of caches and threads for the cleansing of such references.
Fight, yes. But fight efficiently. this sounds like a WHOLE lot more effort than is needed.

 

____________________________

- Team Og Rof A Klaw

All who wander are not lost.

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quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:

Yes, and we could start right here with this thread (no offense Pantalaimon).


 

No offense taken. And, if I go forward, I would ask that TPTB start by deleting this thread and any other thread I've started concerning the pirates.

 

I would ask that they all be deleted. And then I would systematically ask others who have started threads to follow suit. Asking TPTB to delete their threads.

 

Then I'd move on to logs. Asking people to change their logs, delete their references, remove any mention of the pirates. I'd ask the cache owners to do it if the person who logged wouldn't.

 

Then bugs. Any reference to stolen bugs removed.

 

Etc.

 

Pan

 

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

 

[This message was edited by Pantalaimon on September 22, 2003 at 11:25 AM.]

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I voted "No", but largely because I disagree with the specificity of your question.

 

I do not agree that the only way to stop the Pirates is by "cleansing" (oh, what a horrid, horrid word!) the forums, but I do agree that something should be done.

 

That therefore leave me in something of a quandry - I cannot vote "Yes" because I do not agree with your proposal, but I cannot vote "No" because I do think that we should "fight back".

 

I cannot vote for the third option because it is silly.

 

I therefore vote "No" and make this proposal instead - we stop the Pirates by choosing not to get worked up about them, replacing caches that go missing, and not giving them the benefit of success.

 

But to completely obliterate all record of them, in my own eyes, is not the way to go - for one thing, it would give a signal that they are important enough to fret that much about (which they most definately are not) and secondly, it would require a far greater amount of work than the situation requires.

 

I would suggest that it would be more beneficial (and productive) to simply replace cache contents that get held for ransom (cutting any losses that might be accrued) and carry on as normal. As long as we don't rise to any of the bait, he'll get bored.

 

------

"There's Sparticus. That's him, over there."

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Aye, bring to bear the full force of Her Majesty's Fleet to hunt down the scurvy dogs they are! We'll come 'long side and give'm all 24 guns to send them to bottom of the sea!

 

We offer no quarter to pirate scum!

 

~ I suck at writing/talking like a period British Naval Officer. icon_wink.gif ~

 

Seriously, this pirating has to stop. If you have to eliminate all mention of it to not encourage it, fine. Ban accounts and associated accounts, fine. Zero tolerance. None. People shouldn't screw with other people's caches. Period.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by pater47:

I vote I wish people would stop giving them the attention that they crave.


 

That would be the goal of the plan. Eliminate any future press for the pirates on geocaching.com.

 

Pan

 

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

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I voted no. But only because there is not an appropriate other choice.

 

I do not agree with the pirates who are taking caches and not returning them at all, nor do I agree with the caches that are taken and the contents are removed, and then placed great distances away, requiring the owner to travel to retrieve them.

 

However, there is an exception.

 

We have a pirate in our area who is getting a lot of acceptance. Many here actually LIKE what he is doing (there are a small few who don't).

 

He's shown a willingness to work with local cachers and has agreed only to visit caches where approval has been given by the cache owner. He's also leaving a container so that the person who finds it can use it to place another cache. When he takes the cache contents, he leaves the log book and pen, and only moves the content of the cache a short distance (so far, all the pirate containers with the cache contents have been within 30 or so meters (100 feet) from the original cache location.

 

Not all pirates are evil.

 

*****

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I voted yes, but with a caveat. Like Kouros, I don't believe that completely pretending these turkeys don't exist will solve the problem - as they continue their activities cachers who encounter their handiwork will assume they've stumbled upon something new and the whole thing will regenerate.

 

I would suggest that TPTB consider adding some information, probably in the section on how to hide/find a cache, dealing with the subject of what to do if you encounter a vandalized cache or have a cache vandalized. Here, it could be outlined that the best response to such a situation would be to attempt to restore the cache to its proper condition, remove/ignore any ransom or pirate notes, notify the cache owner if you're the finder who has corrected the situation, log a normal find, and carry on as if it had never happened. It might also be helpful if TPTB included in this information a clear statement that any modification of a cache by someone other than the owner is not an acceptable action within the geocaching community. If cachers are given clear advice on what to do when they encounter the situation I believe they will follow that advice - and these idiots will eventually get tired of crying out for attention they won't be getting.

 

Peace,

Radical Geezer

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I am against the actions of the pirates, but I voted NO based on how you propose to eliminate them.

I am not in favor of ANY threads being deleted or logs being changed just because they mention something I don't agree with. If that was the case, I'd ask that all of Jomarac's posts be deleted icon_wink.gif, and many by others. There's got to be a better way.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

I am not in favor of ANY threads being deleted or logs being changed just because they mention something I don't agree with.


 

Even if the original poster volunteered to change or delete the post?

 

Pan

 

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

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quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:

quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

I am not in favor of ANY threads being deleted or logs being changed just because they mention something I don't agree with.


Even if the original poster volunteered to change or delete the post?


Yes.

 

In normal conversation, or even chat rooms once you say something, you can't erase that you said it. The forums and logs should be the same way.

 

I wouldn't mind a PREVIEW function on the forums so you can see how your typing looks before hitting the post button. Once you hit that button, it should be permanent.

 

That said, I wouldn't object to a time limit on posts so that old posts are deleted after a set time since the last reply. My thread talks bout this and I think it would be a good idea to weed out the first 150 pages of topics in the general forum. They take up space on the servers and are rarely read. Rather than someone searching for answers there, they just post a new topic.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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I voted no.

 

I don't condone piracy but I condone less the willful manipulation of history (forum postings and cache logs) to suit someone's agenda. IMHO, I don't believe deleting all messages and logs that mention piracy is going to stop the piracy. I think there is already enough heavy-handed censorship and deletion of posting going on in these forums without creating a whole new category of forbidden topics and trigger words.

 

Let me ask you a question. If the media never reported about street crime and violence, would it go away? If people were forbidden from discussing politics would politicians cease to be? Not likely.

 

The condoned re-writing or deletion of history is a slippery slope. What topic should we eliminate next? Virtual caches, censorship of forum posts, the mere mention of other geocaching websites (oops, they already do that)? Where does it stop?

 

__________

Gorak

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I voted to fight back.

 

The thing is, I would be a heck of a lot more aggressive then a lot of you. If I was having

the problem in my area, I would actually post a trap for the scum and do violence upon them. If they crave attention, I would help them out.

 

I would try and find out :

Who they are - sign them up for all the junk mail possible;

What rigs they drive - find it/them at a parking lot/widespot/store where ever and let the air out of their tires, squirt WD40 on their rigs, grease under the door handles, marbles in the wheel covers, call in a drunk driver report, call a tow company every time you find their rigs parked anywhere;

Where they live- have any garbage service, paper’s, power, water shut off, drop off stray

cats and dogs and road kill, plug culverts in front of their houses, plow snow into their

driveway;

Where they work - call in late for them, call in and quite;

Home phone numbers, try take them off any no call list, try to have add on services

added/deleted to/from their phone line;

 

Commence to make their life a living hell until they scuttled their ships and took up farming in North Dakota.

 

If they wanted to start it, I would be inclined to finish it. Make their life a living hell to

where they have to wonder if something will be wrong with their rig when ever they leave it alone.

 

But that is just me.

 

logscaler.

 

"It is not fair to have a battle of wits with unarmed people."

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quote:
Originally posted by logscaler:

The thing is, I would be a heck of a lot more aggressive then a lot of you. If I was having

the problem in my area, I would actually post a trap for the scum and do violence upon them. If they crave attention, I would help them out.


 

Good solution! Stalking, violence, fraud, vandalism and animal cruelty. Don't forget to burn down their house while you're at it. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

__________

Gorak

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I had to vote 'No' on this one, more because I don't agree with the approach than because I don't think something should be done.

 

First off, the proposal as it stands represents a huge undertaking. Even if there were willing volunteers to do most of the work, this solution implies an added burden to everyone who posts here or logs a cache, in that they may be asked at a future date to modify or delete their post because it violates some protocol. (It did say that the original poster would have to give permission, right?) And then what happens when people refuse to modify their posts? Or people can't be reached? The references will still be there, and all the work will be for naught. Basically, it's a lot of work for a solution that I don't believe will be effective.

 

Another major drawback is that new cachers would not be aware of pirating activity. Discussing all the aspects of geocaching, good, bad, and ugly, is what the forums are for.

 

There's also the whole censorship issue, but others have already mentioned that.

 

But really, the big one, before all of these, is that we need to define the problem before suggesting a solution. So far, it sounds like the problem is defined as "cache pirating is bad". The problem with a statement like that is it's too generalized. Like all forms of zero-tolerance, it's an excuse to avoid thinking. Not all pirates were created equal, and neither should they be treated equally. Certainly most of the pirating I've read about in this forum is bad. It reduces the enjoyment of the game for everyone but the pirate.

 

However, as Jomarac5 mentioned earlier, we have a new breed of pirate in BC, going by the name of Captain Urchin. He is like the bad pirates in name only. He leaves the cache container, logbook, and writing implement in place. If I understand correctly, he adds 'booty' to the cache, so traders (especially children) can still trade without doing anything more than the cache hunt originally intended. He moves the rest of the cache contents to a new container, which he hides within 30 metres (100 feet) of the original cache. He puts a map in the original cache so the new container can be found. The first person to find the new container puts the swag back in the original cache, takes the 'booty', and gets to keep the new container too (so far it's been Lock 'n Locks). And to top it off, he's now agreed to only 'plunder' caches of owners who give him permission ahead of time!

 

Bottom line is, the original cache is still there and cachers can ignore the 'pirating' if they wish without it affecting their game. Cache owners who don't want to participate won't be bothered. He's being pretty generous in what he's giving out.

 

Doesn't sound much like a 'real' pirate, does it? Banning this sort of 'pirating' would be like telling your kid he can't dress up as a pirate for Hallowe'en because pirates are bad.

 

He calls himself a pirate, but I'd no sooner arrest him for piracy than I'd arrest Santa Claus for trespassing.

 

That's the problem with a blanket policy, like all zero-tolerance, it lets you ignore what's really happening by slapping an opaque label on something.

 

So yes, something should be done about the really bad pirates, but let's focus on the specifics, not the generalizations. If a cache is actually removed, call it a stolen cache, and deal with it as such, regardless of whether the thief calls himself a pirate and hides behind jaunty lingo.

 

SylvrStorm

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That's all well and good except for one thing. Real pirates. Those who don't know that there are "good" pirates and "bad" pirates. By condoning this type of play means others will take it up with less than honorable methods.

 

While not nearly on the same level, but it's like pretend killing. It's all well and good until some joker does it for real.

 

Yeah, that was a little over the top, but it illustrates a point--somethings you just don't want to do, even in pretend.

 

CR

 

72057_2000.gif

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Not been much (any) piracy in my neck of the woods, so I suppose I'm an observer. But as a cacher, let me add my tuppence-worth.

 

I voted "no", though like many respondents I don't agree with the idea of "not fighting back".

 

I just think that revising history isn't the way to go about it. Something bad happens, and we should record that as part of the history of geocaching, a history that we collectively are building in our forum posts, caches, and cache logs. We can record that the thing that happened was bad, and that we condemned it, but pretending it never went on isn't honest with ourselves or with the future.

 

Besides, we can't control the offsite references to such behaviour. There will still be discussion, publicity, and whatever strange backslapping these sad people feel they must indulge in to give themselves a sense of self worth.

 

It also occurs to me that if we could erase all references to piracy from GC.com and the rest of the web, nothing prevents some bright spark from reinventing the whole idea later on. Then they can say, "Well, I didn't know it was bad." And we can't even markwell them to set them straight.

 

evilrooster

-the email of the species is deadlier than the mail-

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I voted "No". But thanks Pan for your suggestions about this problem. I think it is a trivial problem and soon enough there will be something else that comes along, anyway. I feel that the bigger problem would be deleting posts and locking topics. As long as it's clean, family-oriented stuff I would prefer to discuss anything that affects us as a community.

 

[This message was edited by tamstan on September 22, 2003 at 02:56 PM.]

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I voted yes, but then, I read some of the excellent points by several posters and have to agree with them, I would change my vote to no.

 

Why? Especially since I AGREE with fighting back? Well, as has been said, you can't make the problem go away by not talking about it, nor by eliminating any history of having talked about it. If we want to avoid any further attention going their way, then let's stop talking about it in the forums, and leave it at that. Revising history is a baaaaad thing, isn't it? Unless you live on the left coast, anyway...LOL.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Afghanistan was a battle. Iraq was a battle. The war goes on."

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I agree something might be done to slow these people down in their activities, like boobytrapping a cache with at least 100 pounds of C-4 so we know when one of them tries to plunder a cache. icon_eek.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_biggrin.gif

Just kidding, wouldn't want to waste the c-4!

 

If you shut down the threads in the forums then you stop any chance of finding a solution to the problem. What one person says may trigger a benificial response from another member. We don't want to lose that type of opportunity do we?

If two heads are better than one then all the heads on the forums should be able to figure something out without having to use the c-4.

 

One suggestion invovles a perk of membership for 'members only caches' that could be used by all cache owners. That would be, to be able to see a log of all who looked at the cache page. The cache owner could only see the log for his/her own cache. This probably would not stop the pirates but it may slow them down, knowing they're being watched.

 

*******************************************************

Everybody is entitled to my opinion - the ornery oldfart

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I'm of the opinion that the best way to solve the pirate problem is to ignore them. Such indivduals do it for a reaction. They love the fact that they are stirring things up and getting people hot under the collar.

 

If one of my caches was hit by a pirate? I would quietly archive it for a few weeks and then quietly replace it.

 

If a pirate posted on my cache that he plunde4red my cache -- I would delete his log.

 

With no audience and no reaction I think a Pirate would get pretty bored hitting my caches.

 

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

Clearly there's nothing that can be done to eliminate pirates. They don't exactly play by the rules afterall.

 

Let me rephrase that --- there's nothing to do to eliminate pirates that I'm WILLING to do. It would require a lot of work and effort. And, as someone pointed out, it's a rather trivial problem (albeit an annoying one).

 

I refuse to let some jerk who thinks it's funny to mess with my caches to lessen my enjoyment of the the sport.

 

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://kenzerco.com

"Never declare war on a man who buys his ink by the gallon."

 

[This message was edited by Jolly B Good on September 22, 2003 at 04:32 PM.]

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I vote yes to have a standard policy, reccomendation or plan in place about what to do in case your cache gets "pirated", much like the standard of what you do when a cache is plundered in any way. I also agree with Jolly B Good's assessment, and believe this is the best way of dealing with it. see also Radical geezer and Patalaimon's similar suggestions in the "other" pirate thread..

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I would hate to see this site go members only, one of the first things that drew me here was that it was free. If it was a members only at the start I may not have joined an would have missed out on this great sport. I've spoken with others that felt the same way. Most know my views on pirates, there are good ones and bad ones, the good ones add something to the game, the bad ones are a good canidate for the c4 mentioned above. I won't mention names, but alot of the people I've talked too would not mind finding a pirated cache that turned into a multi and get a bonus prize for finding and returning the orginal contents to the orginal cache location. I know I have not placed any caches as of yet and many people comment that maybe I'd feel different if I did, guess what you're wrong. I'd only be pi$$ed if someone stole the cache, ammon can and all and never let me retrieve it. Oh and and yes I would be pi$$ed if they moved it 100 miles away as well, but I'd just repost it as a traveling cache and ask that cachers in the area try and move it back to the orginal spot.

Puts flame suit on now.

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Can we please use this tactic to erase Stalin's existance as well? I never thought he was a very delightful character, and quite frankly, all the references to him in history books offend me. I don't agree with what he did, and I believe he should be erased from history for the good of mankind, in case anybody ever wants to follow in his footsteps.

 

I urge you to start burning and ripping pages out of history books immediately.

 

Thank you.

 

</sarcasm> icon_rolleyes.gif

 

A great serial killer once said, "Beauty is only skin deep. Trust me, I've looked..."

 

[This message was edited by SombreHippie & Puppy Dawg on September 22, 2003 at 04:47 PM.]

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I vote 'yes'...

 

There are a few apologists and advocates of the ++++++ concept in our midst who distort the facts for their own purposes.

 

Especially one particular geocacher who purports to be from a theater near you. A few too many movies eh?

 

(edit for clarity:

 

I don't think the plan ought to include erasing threads that already exist...)

 

[This message was edited by canadazuuk on September 22, 2003 at 05:05 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by SombreHippie & Puppy Dawg:

Can we please use this tactic to erase Stalin's existance as well?


 

At least try and make the debate realistic. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

smile.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


Jeremy, I think that was the point. Erasing the history of the cache-pirates is about as realistic as erasing the likes of Stalin and Hitler from history books.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Team GPSaxophone:

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:
Originally posted by SombreHippie & Puppy Dawg:

Can we please use this tactic to erase Stalin's existance as well?


 

At least try and make the debate realistic. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

smile.gif Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location


Jeremy, I think that was the point. Erasing the history of the cache-pirates is about as realistic as erasing the likes of Stalin and Hitler from history books.

 

http://www.texasgeocaching.com Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ihazeltine/bandbass.gif


No, i think what he was saying (it is what I am saying) is you kids are compairing some dip$#!t in the woods with 2 of the biggest mass murderers. Get a grip already icon_rolleyes.gif. Do the phrases "apples to apples" or "Mountain out of molehill" mean anything to ya?

 

For G-d's sake, Kouros is even in a panic about the word "cleansing". icon_rolleyes.gif

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I voted no because trying to pretend a promblem doesn't exist does not make it go away. If you delete the logs some will think it is a new idea never before thought of and start it all over again. I don't think taking a position of hiding our heads in the sand is the right answer. We need to deal with this face on, some have been trying to intimidate the pirates, we know that will not work as they thrive on the attention. Some others have been trying to convert the pirates so as not to steal caches and have had some success. I subscribe to the belief hold your friends close but hold your enemy closer. Your worst enemy may become your closest friend, I've seen it happen.

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By my calculations thus far (keeping in mind that I have altered the rules a bit to allow those votes by people who contacted me by email because they didn't want to add to the pirates' attention in the thread), and by my interpretation of how some people were cyptically voting, the vote is 10 for and 13 opposed to the proposed censorship.

 

Keep voting if you wish, I'd like to hear more.

 

Pan

 

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

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By the by, before someone lashes out, I recognize the fact that the actual vote tally shows more people "for" the idea, rather than "opposed" to it... but those people failed to post their opinion in the thread.

 

Ironically, they should have chose the third option.

 

Pan

 

Here there be tigers. - My response when asked by a fellow Geocacher to describe the attitude of the forums.

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There is not a simple black and white solution to the problem. I think they are children and their parents will eventually ground them for being idiots. I have to echo the opinion of most of you and say just ignore them. However, if you catch one in the act....ooh, that would be fun. New multi cache: Stage 1, 40' 65.256N 52' 23.002. Pirates Leg. Stage 2, Pirates arm...etc.. Just kidding. But, in keeping in the spirit of ignoring them. I'm personally not going to post anything else on the subject. Just remember this will be temporary. It adds another element to the sport but they can't keep it up. It costs money to maintain the their site and sooner or later they'll have to make a payment on the trailers they live in rather that pay for another month of web hosting. Just ignore it and it will over before you know it.

 

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

Because now I am Lost.

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