New Forum Rules Put Into Writing

September 15, 2003

Whattayathink?

Pan

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

3k · September 15, 2003

What are you asking?

__________________________

Caching without a clue....

September 15, 2003

Good question UMC, I was being a little vague.

If you look at the "Geocaching Announcements" section of the forums, you'll see there's a new thread about Forum Rules. I'm curious of the opinions people might have regarding these new, written rules.

Pan

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

5.9k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Whattayathink?

Pan

I think about girls. I think about them a lot. I'm not getting any work done. dadgum lovely girls....

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

5.2k · September 15, 2003

I think it's about time.

Lil Devil

1.4k · September 15, 2003

quote:
LilDevil wrote:
I think it's about time.

I agree.

*****

1.6k · September 15, 2003

I'm a little concerned with these rules, specifically with the sock puppet account.

So, basically, what they are saying is if you have an idea for a tricky cache you can't seperate your account from the idea thus giving away the secret or simply not talking about it here.

Editing posts: is what they are saying is we're going to loss the ability to edit our own posts? They say that if they edit a post and we don't like it that we have to contact them so it can be deleted. Why couldn't we go it and fix it or delete the text?

Just curious.

CR

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Whattayathink?

I'd like one of those Kevlar flak jackets.

ApK

September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
I'm a little concerned with these rules, specifically with the sock puppet account.

So, basically, what they are saying is if you have an idea for a tricky cache you can't seperate your account from the idea thus giving away the secret or simply not talking about it here.

Good question. I would venture a guess that sock puppet accounts which are used in a manner which benefits a tricky cache, or which is legitimately used to seperate yourself from a cache, for obvious, justified reasons won't be eliminated. I've created a sock puppet account in the past for just that reason, and I haven't heard a peep about it.

The concern with sock puppet accounts seems to be limited to forum use, where the user only uses it to post his/her post, because their 'yella'.

quote:
Editing posts: is what they are saying is we're going to loss the ability to edit our own posts? They say that if they edit a post and we don't like it that we have to contact them so it can be deleted. Why couldn't we go it and fix it or delete the text?

I didn't get the impression that we were going to lose our ability to edit our own post... but you're right. The implication could be there.

Personally, I've never seen noticed that a post had been edited or deleted by TPTB, except for swears becoming ******s. Also, I've never heard of anyone complaining of their posts being edited or deleted. I've only ever seen threads locked.

You do bring up an interesting point, however, assuming we do not lose our ability to edit our posts, if a moderator edits my thread, do I have the ability to re-edit it?

I assume if I did then I'd find myself banned right quick.

Pan

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

1.7k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:
Editing posts: is what they are saying is we're going to loss the ability to edit our own posts? They say that if they edit a post and we don't like it that we have to contact them so it can be deleted. Why couldn't we go it and fix it or delete the text?

I think the way it works is that after a moderator edits your post, you lose the right to edit that post yourself. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in moderation, as it would just become a big tug-of-war between you and the moderator.

pirate.cgi.gif

September 15, 2003

quote:
I'm a little concerned with these rules, specifically with the sock puppet account.
So, basically, what they are saying is if you have an idea for a tricky cache you can't seperate your account from the idea thus giving away the secret or simply not talking about it here.

Sock Puppet Accounts - If your reason for creating the account is for the creation of a new cache, as you stated, there shouldn't be a problem. But if the account is created to harass another user or any other misuse of the forums then yes there may be consequences. This stance is no different than one that has been taken in the past.

quote:
Editing posts: is what they are saying is we're going to loss the ability to edit our own posts? They say that if they edit a post and we don't like it that we have to contact them so it can be deleted. Why couldn't we go it and fix it or delete the text?

Editing Posts - You will still have the same ability to edit your own posts. What is written about editing posts addresses Forum Moderators Editing your posts: "We will not edit the content you wrote unless it does not conform to these guidelines. If we edit a post and you do not like the changes, we will delete the message at your request

hydee

I work for the frog

read my post backwards

3k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
The concern with sock puppet accounts seems to be limited to forum use, where the user only uses it to post his/her post,

Thats the way I see it too since these guidelines apply to the forums. Its pretty easy to spot a sock puppet in the forums since they are usually out of line, which is why they created the account in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
You do bring up an interesting point, however, assuming we do not lose our ability to edit our posts, if a moderator edits my thread, do I have the ability to re-edit it?

As far as editing goes I believe you would be able to 're-edit' your post but if it was edited to take out offensive text or other and you went to put it back it that is were things would get ugly. Obviously it was taken out for a reason therefore no reason to put it back it. I think a simple edit to the non-offensive part of the post would be fine.

__________________________

Caching without a clue....

5.2k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:
Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in moderation, as it would just become a big tug-of-war between you and the moderator.

And something tells me the moderator will always win

Lil Devil

1.6k · September 15, 2003

Okay, I'm satisfied.

Thanks!

CR

24.7k · September 15, 2003

My opinion is that to stay on topic sucks. Conversations drift in real life and interesting ideas come out of the natural drift of topics both in real life and in the forums.

Most of the rules are exactly what you would expect.

3k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:
My opinion is that to stay on topic sucks. Conversations drift in real life and interesting ideas come out of the natural drift of topics both in real life and in the forums.

As in the past I don't see that changing too much as long as they don't get out of control as they tend to do from time to time once OT.

__________________________

Caching without a clue....

3.9k · September 15, 2003

I don't see a problem with he rules. I think these fourms have needed something like this for a while now.

If we all play nice nothing should change. I really don't see them ruling with an iron hand unless we force it.

El Diablo

Everything you do in life...will impact someone,for better or for worse.

http://www.geo-hikingstick.com

6.5k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Whattayathink?

"Our moderators are equipped with Kevlar flak jackets and an unlimited supply of admin bricks. Do not attempt to engage them in direct combat."

Is this a warning or challenge?

4.1k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by welch:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Whattayathink?

"Our moderators are equipped with Kevlar flak jackets and an unlimited supply of admin bricks. Do not attempt to engage them in direct combat."

Is this a warning or challenge?

Yes!

*******************************************************

Everybody is entitled to my opinion - the ornery oldfart

21.9k · September 15, 2003

I am one of the other moderators who was crazy enough to volunteer for duty in the General forum. I will do my best to stay out of the way as much as possible, and to be as fair as possible when I do feel a need to step in. That means giving warnings, friendly reminders and nudges whenever appropriate.

Please don't worry about topics that "wander" or posts that introduce some humor into the conversation. That's just like real life and it is part of what makes us a community. What we're worried about are the threads that derail completely, or the posts that are totally inappropriate to the topic being discussed.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

1.4k · September 15, 2003

Hopefully these forum rules will make it a bit less intimidating for newcomers to post in here.

Perhaps a link to the forum rules should be added to the top and bottom of each forum page.

*****

1.3k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by umc:

As far as editing goes I believe you would be able to 're-edit' your post but if it was edited to take out offensive text or other and you went to put it back it that is were things would get ugly. Obviously it was taken out for a reason therefore no reason to put it back it. I think a simple edit to the non-offensive part of the post would be fine.

http://www.mi-geocaching.org/

__________________________

I tried to edit a post (to correct a typo) a week ago and I was unable to do so because I had exceeded the amount of time that you have to do that with. I can't remember how long it told me I had. So, basically you can't edit posts after a certain amount of time. For the most part I consider that a good thing (remember people going back and deleting their messages in threads when they got ticked off).

although there will be some drawbacks.

As for the 'In writing' guidelines for the Forums - I say it's about time. My only suggestion is that they make that a STICKY post so it'll stay at the top.

Otherwise - I still suggest that anything official gets listed on the main webpage - but since this is Forums only I figure only people who use the forums need to know this

Good Work, Guys (and Gals)

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

21.9k · September 15, 2003

Jomarac and Southdeltan, you're both correct; the forum guidelines need to be published in a conspicuous manner. Not sure of the exact way to do this yet, but it will happen sometime soon.

Besides making this a friendlier place for newcomers to feel comfortable posting in, my hope is that we might see some veterans return to the forums who may have given up on them due to all the "noise." I sure miss the input from some of the folks who were guiding my growth as a geocacher more than a year ago.

Thank you for your positive comments, it makes me less nervous about leaving the house without my flak jacket.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

8.4k · September 15, 2003

I am quite happy. This has been needed for some time. It's hard to judge a playing field when there are no rules.

Sngans

Sacred cows make the best hamburger....Mark Twain.

1.3k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:
Jomarac and Southdeltan, you're both correct; the forum guidelines need to be published in a conspicuous manner. Not sure of the exact way to do this yet, but it will happen sometime soon.

Actually - I think that making that a STICKY note at the top of the Announcement Board (and perhaps the General Board since it probably gets the most traffic) would suffice.

My desire for better notification of changes and additions really relates to non-forum matters. This is off topic so I won't go into it that much - I just think the Admin here rely on the forums too much to spread information.

southdeltan

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

4.5k · September 15, 2003

I agree posts should stay on topic.

By the way, anyone know what this weekend's weather looks like?

alan

21.9k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:
I agree posts should stay on topic.

By the way, anyone know what this weekend's weather looks like?

alan

Let's get this steered back on topic. The weather will be FAIR to MODERATE.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

September 15, 2003

Whattayathink?

Pan

I think...Therefore I am!

Maps?!? I don't need no stinking maps! I got coordinates!

There's a fine line between Geocaching and mental illness, I'm just not sure which side of the line I'm on!

2.3k · September 15, 2003

I agree with Criminal... I would rather think about girls!

Oops, there I go OT again!

Hold on while I swing it back...

Rules are good, need some Law and Order to these forums...

---------------------------------------------------

Free your mind and the rest will follow

September 15, 2003

Clearly the legal department has been working night and day for weeks to put together such a concise and objective document.

The tadpoles must be exhausted.

24.7k · September 15, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:
Jomarac and Southdeltan, you're both correct; the forum guidelines need to be published in a conspicuous manner. Not sure of the exact way to do this yet, but it will happen sometime soon. ...

I think a pop up that says, "sorry you have to agree to the forum rules" every time you post anything.

If nothing else it would cut down on posts.

September 16, 2003

Overall I think the guidelines are excellent, and overdue. I do however have a concern over the following guideline

“ general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.” (Italics added).

I have no problem in not tolerating general attacks (or specific attacks for that matter) on persons. However, a prohibition on general attacks on an “idea”, is quite contrary to my concept of forum discussion, and I believe that, if enforced, will be quite stifling to much of what is said on these forums. There has not been a day (or perhaps even hour) that goes by on these forums where ideas are not generally attacked. I know that many of mine have been.

Using the following question as an example, here is my take on various ways in which ideas can be attacked:

Question: “So what do you think of this idea? ”

Potential attack:

1. “I think it’s a bad idea, stupid”. This is an unacceptable answer, as it contains a personal attack. I am in full agreement with the guidelines being rigorously enforced to eliminate this type of dialogue.

2. “I think it’s a bad idea”. To me this is an acceptable but generally lame answer. It does however, provide the questioner with some important information: She now knows that at least one person thinks it’s a bad idea. This answer however, appears to contravene the written guidelines, as it is a “general attack” on an idea.

3. “I think that when you consider the following drawbacks , overall it would be a bad idea:....” This is generally a good answer, and it seems to be in accord with the guidelines, because although it is an attack on an “idea”, it is not a “general” attack. Sometimes however, when you find the idea so repugnant, and contrary to anything you would ever believe in, such an answer is futile and a complete waste of time. In these instances, I think the only worthwhile information that you can provide is in an answer like that 2 above. The more repugnant you find the idea to be, the stronger the language you will likely use - and the more clearly your message will be conveyed.

I would really appreciate some clarification on the prohibition of “general attacks” on ideas. I really can’t imagine that such a guideline will actually be enforced, and if it is not going to be enforced then it should be dumped, as all it will do is potentially stifle worthwhile discussion.

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

1.2k · September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:
Whattayathink?

Pan

I think about girls. I think about them a lot. I'm not getting any work done. dadgum lovely girls....

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

Amen brother, amen.

"Afghanistan was a battle. Iraq was a battle. The war goes on."

3.8k · September 16, 2003

Seneca, would you please repeat that?

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by sept1c_tank:
Seneca, would you please repeat that?

In order to reinforce my wonderful words of wisdom? ...or because I didn't make myself very clear and you didn't have the foggiest idea what I was talking about? (I did write that last post in a hurry and I was still a bit groggy early in the morning - I admit, it does look like a bit of a ramble).

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

21.9k · September 16, 2003

I thought that Seneca's post was both clear and helpful to me as a newbie forum moderator. I am also benefitting by thinking about the on-topic posts in the other thread, "Opinion vs. Attack."

In the abstract, I don't think that examples 2 and 3 in Seneca's post would warrant intervention by a forum moderator, and I would hope everyone would agree that example 1 is impermissible forum behavior. However, the reason that the guidelines are written as they are is to allow for their application to a particular set of facts, and we do not have a set of facts before us. When a moderator does intervene in a thread, the guidelines will be applied to the circumstances of that thread.

It is sort of like the test for "what is pornography?" that was developed by the late Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, who said "I know it when I see it."

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:
I agree posts should stay on topic.

By the way, anyone know what this weekend's weather looks like?

alan

Let's get this steered back on topic. The weather will be FAIR to MODERATE.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

Did you mean moderated?

___________________________________

All weal drive, the only way to go!

September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Titus2_13:

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:

quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:
I agree posts should stay on topic.

By the way, anyone know what this weekend's weather looks like?

alan

Let's get this steered back on topic. The weather will be FAIR to MODERATE.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

Did you mean moderated?

___________________________________

All weal drive, the only way to go!

No $hit! Gotta be respectful to the FRAC's, though. It could get nasty. Ha!

Yup. That's MY goat!

3.8k · September 16, 2003

You're not supposed to say $*** in the forums.

==============="If it feels good...do it"================

**(the other 9 out of 10 voices in my head say: "Don't do it.")**

.

21.9k · September 16, 2003

Opey, that last post didn't add much except to demonstrate your creative use of the dollar sign symbol. Tone it down a notch, we were having a nice chat.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

September 16, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:
Opey, that last post didn't add much except to demonstrate your creative use of the dollar sign symbol. Tone it down a notch, we were having a nice chat.

--------------------

Signal says, "Drink the Kool-Aid!"

Oops! Sorry. Thanks for the compliment. I have been trying to be more creative with that symbol lately, but it still looks like this $. What gives??

BTW, I really like the niceness that is expresseed on these forums. Oh, and lovely weather we are having today. Kinda windy, though.

Yup. That's MY goat!

1.4k · September 16, 2003

*****

September 16, 2003

Ha! I'm getting a kick outta you guys!

Conspiracy? Nah! Keep up the good work.

I love the FRAC's and their awesome power!

Yup. That's MY goat!

September 16, 2003

I would just like to see some consitstency with admin's own policies.

Now that we have all the freelance assistance, I am sure that will be the result.

7.2k · September 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Keystone Approver:
I thought that Seneca's post was both clear and helpful to me as a newbie forum moderator. I am also benefitting by thinking about the on-topic posts in the other thread, "Opinion vs. Attack."

<snip>

However, the reason that the guidelines are written as they are is to allow for their application to a particular set of facts, and we do not have a set of facts before us. When a moderator does intervene in a thread, the guidelines will be applied to the circumstances of that thread.

Seneca, I think Keystone has it right on the mark.

Our hopes are not to stifle discussion by any means. I think most people here know what comments need to be moderated when they see them. It is a shame that the people who write them can’t see it. I guess a good rule to use is that if you think it might be moderated, then don’t post it. Good thoughtful discussion is nice and you can have differences of opinion and still have a good discussion. We saw flamefest discussions in our GGA forums about a year ago and the person posting and inciting most of those flames is now gone. Our GGA discussions have been most pleasant since. We do have disagreement but it is entirely civil. I do hope the additional help we can give the Groundspeak crew will indeed result in these forums getting more discussion oriented instead of argumentative.

I’m sure we all know cachers that don’t come here because they do not want to “hear it”.

_____________________________________

mtn-man... admin brick mason

New Forum Rules Put Into Writing

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