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Should "Trade Up" be a general rule?


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In response to the many posts about trash in a cache, trading cheap items for quality items etc. I humbly propose that Trade UP be inserted into general cache instructions. For instance in the FAQ: http://www.geocaching.com/faq.asp

the instructions would read:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something nicer in the cache, Trade UP!

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Perhaps that might slow the decay of a cache.

 

My flame suit is on, so if this has been talked out a thousand times you can let me know.

 

Swanlakers

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This whole activity is based on the honor system. We trust strangers with our caches, and the loot we place inside. I tend to write off whatever I put in a cache before I leave it out there. The trade up concept is good, but unless we start putting price tags on our trade items, a fair trade is a matter of opinion. If someones kid finds my cache and thinks a happy meal toy is worth more than a dvd, so be it. They're just a kid, after all. How many adult cachers trade down? I think the concept of geocaching as a "treasure hunt" leads some to believe that they are deserving of a reward at the end of the hunt, and that accounts for the down trades. When I got started, I traded items, but then I realized that the items really weren't what I was after, it was the satisfaction of meeting the challenge set forth by the hider of the cache.

So, to answer the question, no.

I think that requiring people to trade up will cause all kinds of petty arguments about the value of toy cars and action figures, and make the game less fun for the kids out there that do like to trade. And how could you even put a value on signiture items? to an averge Joe, probably worthless, but my favorite item is a button made by a cacher.

 

eyes.GIF

"Searching with my good eye closed"

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I think I set a new record, I wanted to select all of the possible choices except for "forget about it."

 

PERSONALLY, I believe in trading up, and I do so at the vast majority of the caches I visit. I'll either take nothing and leave something, or take something and leave one or more items of greater value. And the caches I place are, I believe, quality caches, containing ten or so brand-new store-bought items and a first finder's prize having a value of $5 to $15.

 

At the same time, I recognize that I am in the minority by doing this. I believe that most people do not read the forums and do not read the rules (or just ignore rules they don't agree with). So the practical answer is "who reads the rules?"

 

Also at the same time, I am generally a member of the "fewer rules are better" school of thought. This is just a game. I'm not in it to get rich off of collecting happy meal toys. I would rather convince others to decide on their own to trade up by having them observe my conduct.... setting a good example... than by imposing another rule.

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

.sdrawkcab dootsrednu tub sdrawrof devil si efiL

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Realistically, if everyone had to "trade up", eventually, the cache would have a brand new BMW in it.

 

As long as most people trade evenly, that's plenty. And an even trade is not taking one nice item and leaving 8 peices of junk.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

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I don't like the term "trade up". Typical usage, such a when you get a new car (or new wife ;-), is that YOUR situation improves (you hope). What we're looking for here is to improve the cache, not the cacher.

 

I like Sissy-n-CR's "Please trade kindly" phrase much better. I think it gets the point across much more clearly.

 

George

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I quit trading for the most part, one cache I took some trash out and replaced it with a bunch of good stuff, it needed it bad. When I do trade I always try to trade up or at least even. I just got back from St Louis area of a 2 day caching adventure (need more like a week next time) but a lot of the caches I went to had good items in them, a couple had things I would have traded but didn't bring my backpack with me since now-a-days I just have fun "FSL" (Finding it, Signing it, Leaving it).

 

http://www.mokancachers.com

-Does anyone have some cache on them?-

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quote:
Originally posted by nincehelser:

I don't like the term "trade up". Typical usage, such a when you get a new car (or new wife ;-), is that YOUR situation improves (you hope). What we're looking for here is to improve the cache, not the cacher.

 

I like Sissy-n-CR's "Please trade kindly" phrase much better. I think it gets the point across much more clearly.

 

George


 

The first time I saw the term "trade up" applied to caching, I had to do a double take. It might lead someone to belive they should leave less valuable items.

 

eyes.GIF

"Searching with my good eye closed"

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I have no problem with some type of note being added to the FAQ asking people to "trade kindly" (BTW, I like that phrase!). I don't think that this is a "rule" per se, but a gentle reminder or bit of encouragement.

 

I think that most people KNOW they should trade up but are too cheap or lazy to get nice trade items.

 

I was a bit peeved a few weeks ago when someone traded a quarter for a $5 item we'd left in a cache. Today, someone else traded a nice item for that same quarter. Sometimes it all comes out in the wash.

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I see a trend among experienced cachers who no longer trade. I think they're doing a disservice to the game. OK, fine, there's nothing in the cache you want but how about leaving something, OK? Isn't that fair compensation for a nice adventure? Also, you'll be doing something to increase the quality of every cache you visit. I say the more you cache the more you bear an obligation to improve geocaching. You don't do that by signing logs only.

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What I was thinking about was adding some sort of language to the general guidelines and FAQ's to indicate that the polite thing to do is to leave the cache box goodies in a better state than when you arrived. This can be expressed in short hand as:

 

Trade Kindly, or Trade Up, or antyhing else that TPTB like.

 

The long explanation would go somthing like:

Take somthing, leave somthing nicer, leave the cache a better place for your visit.

 

This kind of goes along with Cache in Trash Out. The goal is not to end up with mega dollar caches, (though any one who wants to place one like that here in Oklahoma has MY ok!)The goal is to try to stem the tide of slow decay of caches, make the sport more self sustaining. As more cachers start TNLN the primary pull for new cachers will fade. I fear that this will slow the introduction of new blood, vital for the sport to survive long term. Don't get me wrong, TNLN is fine with me, it is just that new folks and kids especially like to see those shiny objects in that box. That IS the hunt for them.

icon_smile.gif

 

Swanlakers

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I know that I can not control, the actions and habits of others. I can only comport myself in manner which I think is acceptable. I stock my fannypack with new but inexpensive items I pick up just for trading. Twenty bucks at WalMart goes a long way. Chemical lightsticks have become my signature item. Kids love 'em and they may be useful to a night cacher. At $2.99 per pack of two, not too bad. Compasses are only a couple of bucks. Mini-biners are cheap, and I put fishing lures in caches near creeks and ponds. These items go in the cache in their original packaging so you know that they are brandy-new. I do this because I hope that someone will enjoy the items. That's good enough. And who knows, put out enough good karma or whatever you want to call it, and maybe, just maybe somebody else will start to do the same and I'll find some really cool things in caches. I'd rather take this action instead of ragging about other cachers, because the cachers who leave condoms and firecrackers just don't get it and probably won't. I'll admit that with only 17 finds, I'm an infant in this game, and maybe after I hit a bunch more my views may change. For now this works for me and that's all that matters. The bottom line is that it's only a game, and the day that caching becomes stressful for me, I'm out. Thanks for listening.

 

I am not addicted to geocaching, really.

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt1344:

I see a trend among experienced cachers who no longer trade. I think they're doing a disservice to the game. OK, fine, there's nothing in the cache you want but how about leaving something, OK? Isn't that fair compensation for a nice adventure? Also, you'll be doing something to increase the quality of every cache you visit. I say the more you cache the more you bear an obligation to improve geocaching. You don't do that by signing logs only.


 

Ya know....sometimes the life starts sucking the common sense out of me........Matt, you made a great observation. I was starting to see myself not trading anymore, just maybe the special signature items stuff. But your right..... lets not douse the adventure for those that come behind. Thank you for your wisdom on that. Sometimes we all need a gentle reminder that there are others to think about. Guess I'll re-stock our backpack again....and be smileing while I do it.

 

Earth First!!! We'll cache the other planets later!!

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It seems like every one considers the addition of a travel bug a trade up. Maybe only TB's should be left in caches then all trades would be even. (One TB out = One TB in) Plus every item in circulation will have helped to promote the sport via the cost of the bug. Most cachers who typically TNLN are glad to pickup and drop off TBs. I also like signature items because the have sentimental value much beyond the material value. My dream cache would be one with 10 TB's and a signature item from each previous visitor and no other trade items regardless of value.

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I love seeing signature items in the caches..but, it's also nice to collect them. Here in Michigan...we've kinda got into collecting each others items....and are following each other around trying to snag some of the harder ones to find.....

It's really great to see some of the ideas people come up with......

 

Earth First!!! We'll cache the other planets later!!

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We have just started a practice when we go family caching to stop at the dollar store first. With 4 younger kids who like to geocache, it is too easy to wipe out a cache. So instead the kids go to the dollar store and buy something they want. Then we go hunting and they are allowed to trade the item they just bought for something of similar value in the cache.

Sometimes they come home with what they bought. Sometimes they trade a couple of times, but at least now they are not scrounging around for old toys to trade.

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Wow, some really good points made here ! I have recently been doing the TNLN, but it sounds reasonable to "improve" the cache for the next guy. I got really annoyed when I saw someone put out a brand new cache, with a 32meg memory card for a digital cam listed. The 1st folks there took it, and even logged that they left TURKEY TEMP POP_UPS as their trade.

Ok, yes I was jealous they got there first, but I had a reasonable trade for it. Then it occurred to me, if they and the cache owner could live with that, what business is it of mine to criticize ? The card was left with no pretense of what had to be traded for it. Someone just got a very nice prize.

I guess my thought is, don't loot the cache, other than that, trade nicely sounds like a good personal goal for me.

 

happy caching all.

 

Two roads diverged in the woods and I,

I took the one less traveled,

and that is how I found the cache.

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Wow, some really good points made here ! I have recently been doing the TNLN, but it sounds reasonable to "improve" the cache for the next guy. I got really annoyed when I saw someone put out a brand new cache, with a 32meg memory card for a digital cam listed. The 1st folks there took it, and even logged that they left TURKEY TEMP POP_UPS as their trade.

Ok, yes I was jealous they got there first, but I had a reasonable trade for it. Then it occurred to me, if they and the cache owner could live with that, what business is it of mine to criticize ? The card was left with no pretense of what had to be traded for it. Someone just got a very nice prize.

I guess my thought is, don't loot the cache, other than that, trade nicely sounds like a good personal goal for me.

 

happy caching all.

 

Two roads diverged in the woods and I,

I took the one less traveled,

and that is how I found the cache.

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Let's be honest. After the first few caches, the stuff in there does not matter. New cachers will not stop geocaching just because there are cheap McToys (or worse)in the cache.

 

"Trade up" does imply a value judgement on the part of the cacher. Let's not require people to do this. I like Sissy n CR's suggestions.

When I cache, I will usually leave my signature item (topo maps and waypoints on a floppy disk). The cost of the disk is rather low, but "worth" more than some items in the cache.

 

There is nothing wrong with TNLN. It does not improve the cache, or take away from it.

 

I would never leave an item of higher value in a suburban cache. I might in a cache that required a significant challenge to reach.

 

Trading is a personal decision.

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quote:
There is nothing wrong with TNLN. It does not improve the cache, or take away from it.

 

That's certainly true. TNLN is like you were never there. But is that really how you want to go through life — just signing the logbook as you pass by? Wouldn't that make a great tombstone epitath:

 

Here lies the bones of a geocacher,

Born someday,

Died sometime later,

TNLN

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I have recently noticed that you can't help but trade up. Some of the caches I have found lately were full of crap. Yes mostly kids stuff, and that is great for the kids. I just get tired of finding stuff like, bottle caps, gumball machine stickers, plastic rings. I mean come on. Use a little amagination at least. Some of us older cachers do enjoy the treasure at the end of the hunt, and I always trade up. Or TNLN.

 

Life is a gift, unwrap it and use it to the fullest!

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt1344:

quote:
There is nothing wrong with TNLN. It does not improve the cache, or take away from it.

 

That's certainly true. TNLN is like you were never there. But is that really how you want to go through life — just signing the logbook as you pass by? Wouldn't that make a great tombstone epitath:

 

Here lies the bones of a geocacher,

Born someday,

Died sometime later,

TNLN


 

This is not Philosophy 101. I'm merely saying Trading up is the ideal. In the real world, I would rather someone TNLN rather than place used golf balls in my cache and call it a trade.

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you never know. what looks like junk to you might be cool to me.

 

sometimes i won't trade at a cache where both the content and the placement are poor. if the content is poor but something about the placement is very good, i'll trade very well.

 

every once in a while i get caught short and make a cheap trade. i hope the balance of things evens me out. sometimes i take nothing/leave something.

 

i never leave anything dirty or broken. if i TN/LN it's usually a sign that i've forgotten to bring my bag, or the weather is bad, or this is my last cache of the day and i should have quit an hour ago but i wasn't going to go back to the car until i either found it or died looking...

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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I haven't been geocaching for that long, but my philosphy is ALWAYS to trade even or trade up. I frequently leave multiple quality items and take only one. I enjoy watching the caches where I do this, and watching others enjoy what I have left.

 

For me it is about the hunt, not about the find. Though I definitely enjoy finding a "cool" treasure every now and then.

 

I think the "experienced" geocachers are doing everyone a disservice with the TNLN philosophy.

 

If there isn't anything there you want fine... TN...

 

But at least leave a little something... It's the silly little treasures that draw people to this game (especially newcomers).

 

This is THE BEST game I have ever found... Let's not let those that trade down ruin it, lead by example.

 

If you TNLN, let it be because you forgot your backpack. I haven't always lived by this, but am going to try to from now on.

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quote:
Originally posted by GeoNap:

<snip>

 

I think the "experienced" geocachers are doing everyone a disservice with the TNLN philosophy.

 

If there isn't anything there you want fine... TN...

 

But at least leave a little something... It's the silly little treasures that draw people to this game (especially newcomers).

 

This is THE BEST game I have ever found... Let's not let those that trade down ruin it, lead by example.

 

If you TNLN, let it be because you forgot your backpack. I haven't always lived by this, but am going to try to from now on.


 

It's the people that make bad trades that cause caches to degrade. I'm not going to shoulder the responsibility of improving a lame cache in the briars of a suburban park. The next person that comes along will take the more valuable item, and leave junk. That's not leading by example. That's a waste! Frequently, I leave a signature item, without taking anything.

 

I tend to place caches in thoughtful locations, with good quality containers, and good trade items. This is how I lead by example in my area. The responsibility is on the finder to maintain the quality standard that the hider sets.

 

My point is: TRADE UP! but, TNLN is perfectly acceptable. Let's not make any rule about "Trading Up" It's a personal decision.

 

Geocaching has changed as more people got into it. Cache contents tend to degrade over time. That's a fact that has been discussed in the forums for the past 2 years. The newbies (who may be in it for the treasure) might be the ones making bad trades. Experienced cachers don't care about the contents, unless there are kids in the group.

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Once in a while, I'll leave something in the $10-$20 range in my caches (like a Geocaching.com hat, binoculars, Swiss Army knives....um, I mean tools, etc...).

 

I really don't expect someone to leave something of equal value. Who carries $15 trade items in their goodie bag? I know I don't. But I am dissapointed if I see a log that says something like, "took Geocaching.com hat, left bottle cap".

 

As far as improving a cache, if it's a poorly hidden Gladware container, I won't bother. I'm not going to leave a handful of decent stuff that will be soaked, or stolen soon. But if it's a good hide in a solid, watertight container, I'm more than happy to leave a few items to spice up the cache for the next finders.

 

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues" -Abraham Lincoln

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quote:
...As far as improving a cache, if it's a poorly hidden Gladware container, I won't bother. I'm not going to leave a handful of decent stuff that will be soaked, or stolen soon. But if it's a good hide in a solid, watertight container, I'm more than happy to leave a few items to spice up the cache for the next finders.....

 

I like that and that is exactly how I do it too. I hate it when I find a cache and discover it to be a nasty little 'Tupperware' box thrown under a thorn bush. No way I am going to put decent stuff into that cache! It's not about profit or costs. It's about the general feeling one has on finding and opening a cache.

'Trade kindly' is the best way I have ever seen the concept put into words.

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"I would rather someone TNLN rather than place used golf balls in my cache and call it a trade."

 

God, I hate golf balls. Usually when I find them in a cache, I throw them as far away as I can.

 

"I like that and that is exactly how I do it too. I hate it when I find a cache and discover it to be a nasty little 'Tupperware' box thrown under a thorn bush. No way I am going to put decent stuff into that cache! It's not about profit or costs. It's about the general feeling one has on finding and opening a cache."

 

EXACTLY! If the cache owner doesn't put a decent effort into the cache, why should I have the obligation to fix it up? Great cache, I leave a great item. Crap deserves a "TN/LN/SL".

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

I like the phrase my wife thought up, "Please trade kindly." We supplement that with, "Let those who behind you be as happy as you are."

 

CR

 

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/72057_2000.gif


 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

I am a newbee, and this is exactly the first impression I got from the site today when I first signed on.."happy" and "nicely" fit the attitude already portrayed in this great hobby.After all, isn't the thrill of the hunt the major goal anyway??

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quote:
Originally posted by Tikiroy:

I am a newbee, and this is exactly the first impression I got from the site today when I first signed on.."happy" and "nicely" fit the attitude already portrayed in this great hobby.After all, isn't the thrill of the hunt the major goal anyway??


If you have already figured out that it's the thrill of the hunt, and trading nicely is a secondary consideration, then you've already graduated past being a "newbie." For the first ten finds or so, many newcomers are fixated on the trade items. Eventually it becomes all about the zen of geocaching, acquiring and using the "force" to ferret out the tough hiding spots. The trade items are a nice sideshow, especially for the kids. Glad to have a fast learner join our ranks!

 

x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

Some mornings, it just doesn't pay to chew through the leather straps. - Emo Phillips

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quote:
Originally posted by gazetteer:

It seems like every one considers the addition of a travel bug a trade up.


 

Interesting.. I don't consider a travel bug a trade item at all! It's fine if you TNLN(except bug), but since no future finder can *keep* the bug, I don't think leaving a bug gives a cacher the right to keep anything in exchange for it. By the same token, I don't think removing a travel bug from a cache means you need to leave something in exchange, but we've already covered the idea that it's nice to leave something anyway.

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