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Once you place a cache, that should be the end of your involvement in it.

The way a cacher plays this game is entirely up to them. If they do something that you might call cheating it's up to them. They have to live with their own sense of accomplishment.

Bashing other cachers for needing help is unnecessary. It's rather demeaning.

Psychologically it's more likely for someone to ask a fellow cacher for help than the owner. Much like a student asks another student before asking the teacher. It would be very bad form for that teacher to yell at the students for working with one another.

 

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I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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Surely my involvement with my cache doesn't end with placing it; after all, there's maintaining it. And in my opinion, maintaining it includes making sure it remains enjoyable for later cachers. What if they post the hints in a note to the cache page itself? Isn't that what the "delete" and "permanently encrypt" links are for?

 

I speak somewhat from experience here; someone posted a note to one of our more interesting caches a week or so ago that gave far more hints than I thought were strictly necessary, so I deleted it. In this case, they were hints on the location rather than on the puzzle, but the way they were posted just rubbed me the wrong way. Had the poster emailed me and suggested that such hints were needed, I might have agreed and put them in the cache description, but it's my cache and I should have the say as to whether cachers know which side of the creek it's on.

 

On the other hand, I'm not going to tell the local cachers not to help each other or work together or whatever. That's their prerogative. I would hope that nobody would give away the crucial secret of, say, Shortwave, but I really can't stop them if they do. I'd feel sorry for the person who ruined the fun by asking, though.

 

And on the gripping hand, I've been known to give some hints myself. There are tons of hints within the Shortwave page, for example, above and beyond the encrypted hints at the bottom, and I often send hints in email if they're requested.

 

The difference between the first case and the other two cases is that in the other two cases, the cacher had to ask. In the first case, he could just accidentally read too much and spoil the surprise for himself unintentionally.

 

warm.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy:

Surely my involvement with my cache doesn't end with placing it; after all, there's maintaining it. And in my opinion, maintaining it includes making sure it remains enjoyable for later cachers. What if they post the hints in a note to the cache page itself? Isn't that what the "delete" and "permanently encrypt" links are for?


Ok lets stay on topic.

No one said anything about maintenance. This subject is clearly about forcing others to play the game their way. How do you get such an out of context view on a simple sentence?

The rest of the post clearly supports that.

 

39197_2700.jpg

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

No one said anything about maintenance. This subject is clearly about forcing others to play the game their way.


Interesting take you have on the subject, but I'd say it's far from "clear" that that's what it's about. It's about whether it's ethical to give other cachers hints, it appears to me. Your version seems to be begging the question a bit.

 

quote:
How do you get such an out of context view on a simple sentence?


So, let me get this straight. You're asking me how I could interpret "Once you place a cache, that should be the end of your involvement in it." to mean that you shouldn't be involved with a cache after you place it? I said what I meant: the cache is my responsibility as long as it's there, and part of that responsibility is to ensure that it remains fun for future cachers. That's not what's traditionally covered under "maintenance", but apparently the whole "analogy" concept is over your head.

 

If your version were reality, there would be no way for a cache placer to maintain the logs. There is such a way, so your version clearly isn't reality.

 

warm.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

This subject is clearly about forcing others to play the game their way.


 

Who's forcing who to do what? If a particular puzzle cache isn't your type of cache, then don't hunt it. It's really just as simple as that. Nobody's forcing anybody to do anything they don't want to do.

 

And I don't know when/where YOU went to school, but when I went, cheating on homework/tests/papers/etc resulted in much more than getting yelled at by the teacher. I can't even imagine a school system where students giving each other answers is approved of.

 

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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I would not want any hints or clues unless I was completely stumped. At that point, I would contact the cache owner first to make sure I wasn't missing something. Likewise,I would suggest to those soliciting clues from me to try the cache owner first. After that, I might needle some of the others that have found it to pry something out of them. Of course, many of my Mississippi caching buddies would be just as likely to give me wrong information just to watch me walk in circles!

 

What I really don't care for is people giving me clues that I didn't ask for, which I've heard of a few instances of this happening.

 

I don't want anybody telling me how the book ends.

 

I don't want people blowing the climax of the movie.

 

I don't want to know what my Christmas present is before I open it.

 

I don't want to know where the cache is before I even look for it.

 

Visit the Mississippi Geocaching Forum at

http://pub98.ezboard.com/bgeocachingms

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And in the school I went to, if I had a question about how to solve a problem in my homework, my teacher always told me that If I wasn't smart enough to solve it, well too bad because they weren't gonna tell me how to do the work.

Of course not!

Usually the teacher would help guide me to what I need to know to solve the problem, give me a hint, and then let me try again. None of this Sorry, too bad, you don't know it, so you can't be taught it.

I ask questions. I ask for hints. I ask for help. I was taught to. Too bad if your teachers were not nice enough to teach you.

Caches aren't a test. They are a Game. I choose to play the game. And if you bring somehthing I don't know in the game, I will attempt to teach myself. If that doesn't work, I'll ask for help. That's how I play this game.

-Jennifer

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Cachers "working together" to solve a puzzle is indeed different than cacher A solving a puzzle and distributing the answers to cachers B, C, D and E.

 

If cacher A solves the problem and disseminates the information, that cuts short all of the hard work I did as the cache placer in coming up with clues. I see this as no different than placing a cache up in a tree with a yellow rock at its base - and the first finder logs "it's up a tree with a yellow rock at its base." Spoiling means to change the hunt for those that follow.

 

Everyone who finds all the stages of Hard as PI or Liberal Arts should have the opportunity to try their hand at solving the puzzles themselves. If you don't like it that way, I'm not forcing you to find those two caches. There are 87 other caches within a 15 mile radius.

 

Wow - that sounds harsh. Balance that with the fact that I have given some nudges for people who ask me. I would never consider giving a clue to another cacher to someone else's cache that I had found.

 

Markwell

Chicago Geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by pater47:

Of course, many of my Mississippi caching buddies would be just as likely to give me wrong information just to watch me walk in circles!

 


 

Heh heh heh heh

 

If any of you have the chance to go caching with Pater some time, don't miss the opportunity. He had a blast watching me wander in circles one damp Winter day in Mississippi.

 

Can't wait for his next foray into my neck of the woods. icon_wink.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:

I would never consider giving a clue to another cacher to someone else's cache that I had found.


 

I'll second that, except to note that I've given hints on the correct answers to clues on others' caches that I thought were unintentionally ambiguous, but only when asked.

 

warm.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

I mean, what's the difference between giving out nudges and partnering up?

 


 

When you partner up, it's generally with someone who hasn't yet found the cache.

 

When you get a nudge, it's generally NOT from someone who hasn't yet found the cache.

 

That would seem to be a pretty fundamental difference to me.

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quote:
Originally posted by Markwell:

Wow - that sounds harsh. Balance that with the fact that I have given some nudges for people who ask _me_. I would never consider giving a clue to another cacher to someone else's cache that I had found.


 

Why? I certainly wouldn't have felt bad if someone told another person a simple nudge to one of my caches. Complete spoilers are a different story. I don't consider a nudge the same as a spoiler. I do have a couple of tricky ones and unsolicted clues could, well, spoil things for others.

 

Maybe it's a matter of sematics. My take of a 'nudge' is just enough solicited help to get past a sticking point. Example: "it's not on the ground."

 

A spoiler is unsolicited help and could give away too much information. Example: "it's up the bend oak tree in the knot hole that's 7 feet off the ground."

 

Heck, for me, maybe it's simply a matter of solicitation.

 

CR

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamethiel:

And in the school I went to, if I had a question about how to solve a problem in my homework, my teacher always told me that If I wasn't smart enough to solve it, well too bad because they weren't gonna tell me how to do the work.

Of course not!


Haven't we gotten past the difference between the cache placer having the option to give clues vs. every body else who found it? Nobody's saying that the cache placer shouldn't be allowed to give clues. Move on.

quote:

Caches aren't a test. They are a Game. I choose to play the game. And if you bring somehthing I don't know in the game, I will attempt to teach myself. If that doesn't work, I'll ask for help. That's how I play this game.


Yup, and I've never heard of a game that every player is entitled to win, reglardless of their personal performance. Even games where you play against yourself, like solitare, aren't any fun if you always win. What's the point then?

-Jennifer

 

skydiver-sig.gif

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"We never seek things for themselves -- what we seek is the very seeking of things."

Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

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quote:
Originally posted by Kodak's4:

That would seem to be a pretty fundamental difference to me.


 

Only if one is the type of person that yells "found it" as soon as they do, instead of letting their partner continue to look and find it themselves. (Yep, pet peeve and why I only hunt with Sissy anymore.)

 

Very rarely will everyone in a team solve a puzzle or find a clue at the same time. You're not a "partner" if you're just tagging along.

 

Hopefully, the previous finder will recognise that the person is asking for a nudge and not a hand-holding.

 

I think I will continue to answer queries for help from my fellow cachers. Not to spoil their fun, make me feel like a bigshot, or spoil it for the owner, but because they asked. I won't give step-by-step instructions, but I will try to get them past a sticking point.

 

It's my nature.

 

CR

 

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quote:
Originally posted by Sissy-n-CR:

I won't give step-by-step instructions, but I will try to get them past a sticking point.

 

It's my nature.


 

Good spin control.

That's right on the point. Skydiver says your not allowed to get clues(nudges) from anyone but him. Only he is allowed to authorize such info.

This has nothing to do with cache Maintenance or spoilers in the logs.

Each individual is responsible for the way they play this game. Their sense of accomplishment or lack of is theirs alone.

Forcing others to play your way is an unreasonable expectation.

BTW an accidental find is still a find.

 

39197_2700.jpg

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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quote:
I speak somewhat from experience here; someone posted a note to one of our more interesting caches a week or so ago that gave far more hints than I thought were strictly necessary, so I deleted it. In this case, they were hints on the location rather than on the puzzle, but the way they were posted just rubbed me the wrong way. Had the poster emailed me and suggested that such hints were needed, I might have agreed and put them in the cache description, but it's my cache and I should have the say as to whether cachers know which side of the creek it's on.

 

Did you e-mail the person and ask him/her to edit the post? Did your cache page specifically ask that people not post spoilers in the logs? If not, then I'd assume that the standard "Warning. Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links" would apply. I don't think it's right to delete logs unless it's a last resort. How would you like it if the cache finder decided that your cache didn't live up to his expectations and deleted it

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i feel anything i thought of without knowing the solution (including theories that turn out to be wrong) are mine to discuss.

 

i won't give up information that i gained post solution, nor will i give up confirmation or controversion (is that a word? it is now.) of the theories.

 

and if you're asking me for a hint, you'd better have some thoughts in mind. i'm all for discussion of thoughtful ideas, but i'm against being handed the answer.

 

"you are right to suspect [thing]" is much different than "look about ten feet off the ground on the west side of the sign".

 

it doesn't matter if you get to camp at one or at six. dinner is still at six.

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