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geocaching.com too commercial?


k2dave
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I have been steadily loosing interest in this site and think it's due to the steady increase in the commercialization of this site (geocaching.com).

 

I am not referring just to membership but to trademark logos (who created the logo anyway?), contacting other sites in an attempt to shut them down (or remove all geocaching stuff which would effectively shut them down).

 

Now I'm not against Jeremy making a living or even a killing on this site. I am saying that its commercialization is not transparent to the geocachers and is a turnoff to at least me (direct opposite reason why I started geocaching).

 

When I began geocaching this site was more like an open community now you have to worry about such thing like copywrite infringement.

 

I'm not gone yet and if things turn around I very well may come back but if not I might drift so far away that I'm not going back.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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I do not understand everything that it takes to keep up a website like geocacheing.com but I am told by those who seem to know that it takes a lot of time, work and money. I do not begrudge anyone the right to protect there intellectual property such as copyrights and trademarks. Anyone is free to start up their own website listing GPS coordinates and asking people to place boxes somewhere and log them in. The fact is, as far as I can tell, this is the first site to do it and therefore they have a large following. I think someone is either losing money on this site or else is putting in a lot of "free" time because of their love of the game. (probably many someones) I get tons of value from this site and love to play the game and have ino interest in going "somewhere else :

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Wasn't sure of the best place to post this...and this seems particularly apropos.... I know I'm a relative and inexperienced newbie, but all opinions count for something.

I like this sport

I like this site

I like the way the Groundspeak staff seem omnipresent and pop out of the air to answer questions and fix problems

I hope that, big people that they are, they're not taking all the recent sort-of-derogatory posts personally in any way.

I'm certain I'm not alone in this sentiment.

Thanks Jeremy and co.

maybe I'll treat myself to a membership for my birthday - to show some support.

Beta Lemming

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The commercial aspects of this site, if any, are totally non-intrusive. Because of this, I am only aware of them when being made aware of them by my own choice.

 

Unlike countless other member-supported websites which force-feed popups, pleas for money, or whatever, this place could actually be a model.

 

----------

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you be also be like him.

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in the year since many of us began ... even more for those folks who started way back in 2000.

 

In the 14 months I've been geocaching, the sport/game has evolved from the simple search for a hidden container to include multicaches, virtual caches, locationless caches and hybrids like letterbox caches ... not to mention paid memberships. The number of participants has increased exponentially, as have the number of caches.

 

I think geocaching.com has done admirably in growing with the times. I do not think the website has become overly commercial; thankfully, we aren't inundated with those pop-up ads one can't escape on most websites, for example. I definitely have no problem with, in fact I strongly support, people protecting their intellectual property.

 

Like Dave, I don't like all the new developments in the sport, but geocaching is certainly not lacking in people placing the types of caches we cut our teeth on.

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Just avoid the forums... you can happily geocache for a long time with the amount of caches that are placed around the world today. If you come to the forums, you're gonna see these issues - many of which appear to have been blown quite out of proportion.

 

If you just wanna keep geocaching, though - just go to the main site, find the caches, and go hunting. Nothing smacks you in the face, really, when you just go to the regular site - other than a few small icons or banners that try to get you to buy geo-gear. icon_smile.gif I mean, it isn't like there are pop-up banners on every cache page or something.

 

If all the copyright, membership, logo, and other such talk bothers you - just avoid the forums. If it really is enough to chase you away from the sport, it seems to me that you aren't that interested in it anyway. *shrug* Just my .02

 

banana.gifThe Toe Pages

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Groundspeak, geocaching.com and their supporters has probably spent more money and contributed more voluntary talent and effort in building this site and fostering this community than anyone would believe. Jeremy, in his modest way will not tell you this. When you say the site is becoming commercialized, I believe you are confusing commercialization with the good management practices that are needed to protect the hard work, value and the infrastructure of geocaching.com that’s been developed here for all of us. The difficulty and problems in managing a site such as this become greater with the number of users. Jeremy and his associates have provided much of what you see here without costing you a penny. Some months back we were all given the opportunity to invest in and become members of this groundbreaking site. I was happy to contribute the 30 bucks for the true value received here. If this site were really a commercial enterprise, you would have banners and popup ads in your face every 2 seconds.

 

"When you find it, its always in the last place you look."

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From the replies it looks like I am alone in my opinion. Maybe others that feel the way I do already left. Perhaps I will go and see how geocaching in on some other sites.

 

As for if I was having a bad day - well it hasn't been the best (not the worst either).

 

now this guy is having a bad day:

 

There's this guy on a bar, just looking at his drink.

He stays like that for half-an-hour.

Then, this big trouble-making truck driver steps next to him, takes the

drink from the guy, and just drinks it all down.

The poor man starts crying. The truck driver says: "Come on man, I was just

joking. Here, I'll buy you another drink. I just can't see a man crying."

"No, it's not that. This day is the worst of my life. First, I fall asleep,

and I go late to my office. My boss, outrageous, fires me. When I leave the

building, to my car, I found out it was stolen. The police, they say they

can do nothing. I get a cab to return home, and when I leave it, I remember

I left my wallet and credit cards there. The cab driver just drives away. I

go home, and when I get there, I find my wife in bed with the gardener. I

leave home, and come to this bar. And when I was thinking about putting an

end to my life, you show up and drink my poison . . ."

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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Well, I don't know anything about trying to shut anyone down, but I do know a little about protecting your interests. I don't feel that Jeremy and co. have done anything but protect the hardwork they've done.

 

Even though I've been part of the effort to come up with a graphic or logo that we can freely use, I understand why Jeremy is doing what he is doing. I feel that he might should have had his ducks in a row before shutting down the coin guys, but I think the solution he has for the future is workable.

 

As for the rest of the site, I think it is very professionally created, run, and maintained. It's one of those "build it and they will come" things. What you can get out of this site for the money makes it an outstanding value at $30, much less free. So what if he wants to sell stuff on it. Hell, I've got a site and one day might even get my stuff together enough to actually sell something. (Lack of TUITs, mostly.)

 

So, no I don't think it too commercial at all.

 

My two cents.

 

CR

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I don't get that at all. I just don't see it.

 

So yes there is this little icon on the left that I can click to go buy stuff. And yes I can get a membership. But I don't have to do any of that and I still get to enjoy just about everything there is here to do.

 

I do happen to know what it takes to run web sites. How do you think servers and software are paid for? Do you have any idea how much bandwidth costs? I won't even go into paying people to program this all together. Is Jeremy just supposed to pay for this out of his own pocket?

 

This has got to be the least commercialized site around. I spend a lot of time on the web. It is amazing how many sites run pop up/under ads. That is in addition to all the ads that are actually on the pages. Sometimes I can't even find content on some of these sites. But here everything seems very clean and clear.

 

I guess everybody just expects a free lunch today. Look around and see what else is going on in the world. You will return.

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There are good things, there are bad things. I'm still trying not these things too seriously. Far too much stress for a game I tell myself.

 

My only complaint is that I think Jeremy tries to do too much himself. I'm not sure if it's because he's trying to protect his site/company/whatever (I'm a little fuzzy on where he draws the line.) or if it's because he's just a control nut as I sometimes am.

 

I think he should open a lot of things up a little more though, but that's another discussion for another time - preferably around a campfire.

 

The only thing that really sticks out in my mind is this: who really owns this site? Does Jeremy? Does Groundspeak? Do we?

 

I'd like to believe it's the community that owns the site, but I'm fearful that it's not. What would be neat would be to add voting functionality and let the community start making some decisions here.

 

Sure would end a lot of these endless postings............

 

- Dekaner of Team KKF2A

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K2Dave

America=liberty=freedom=commercialism

You can always move to Russia and Geocache there. I just checked there are four caches to keep you busy. Oh, wait there no longer communist. You could move to Cuba there are two there to keep you busy. But wait didn't Castro just buy a couple of million dollars worth of American hamburgers and other goods (yes he did). Ok never mind I guess you just have to stop playing. Bye. icon_biggrin.gif

 

www.ManuelCasillas.com

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quote:
Originally posted by k2dave:

From the replies it looks like I am alone in my opinion. Maybe others that feel the way I do already left. Perhaps I will go and see how geocaching in on some other sites.

 

As for if I was having a bad day - well it hasn't been the best (not the worst either).


 

Well, those of us that do know about some of the growing pains and problems (DU,buxley,n_vic_che, etc) might understand better how you feel, but in general, I think most of the changes have been for the best. Maybe I just understand how these things work better then some, having been on both sides of the fence. How many popular websites have dried up in the last year or two? Great sites. with good content and lots of visiters, cost alot of money. I would bet this site, and its forums, etc easily cost $500 or more a WEEK to keep running. Those kind of expenses require a profitable company behind it to keep going for long. If that company doesnt protect it's assets (this website) then it's profits go down, and the website goes down with it. Most of the "Commercialization" you mention is just ensuring that geocaching.com will survive and thrive. Sure, I might not like the clamp down on the logo, but ya know what? I've designed a website and had it copied word for word (right down to the intentional typos hidden in the HTML) on another site with a simular URL, littered with porno popup ads, and I didnt like it ONE dadgum BIT! If the reigns need to be a little tighter to keep things going, fine. Better that then what this hobby/sport/whatever would be without this great website behind it

 

Illegitimus non carborundum!

 

[This message was edited by Mopar on October 11, 2002 at 12:02 PM.]

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Just want to drop you all a note that I'm still reading the replies. I must admit that I didn't get one supportive post (email is another subject).

 

Like I said before if Jeremy makes money off this site that's great - but my complaint is that during the transition to a pay site I've noticed a change in the site. It's the change in the site I dislike.

 

Perhaps I attribute the change to converting it to a (optional) pay site when I should more attrubute it to expanding the site to such things as virtuals, benchmarks, travel bugs, ect.

 

Whatever the reason I find this site somewhat less interesting then I did when I started and I attrubute it to changes in the site.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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I have only been here 2 months, but I have been around the nets in one form or another for over 25 years. You want to see commercialism? Then you have to talk about what happened when the internet moved out of the colleges and became the home to the .com (.bomb?) craze. THAT was commercialism.

I will freely admit I was not here when this place first opened, and I bet it was a good deal looser when brand new. Things tighten up with age. icon_wink.gif And the number of members. As has been said afore, you want commercialism? Try visiting the X10 site and their popups. icon_smile.gif

Im not disagreeing with the way you feel, its your observation after all. All im saying is it seems a normal progression of any popular site. As for all the talk about logos and Geocaching marketing and all the rest, well - How would you handle it differently? As for talking about it on the forums, isnt that what some parts of the forums are for?

-Centaur

I have yet to come across a subject so dangerous is can't at least be talked about. icon_smile.gif

 

66427_2400.gif

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I have no problem with Jeremy/Groundspeak protecting their logo. Whatever "commercial" aspects the site has are extremely minimal.

 

Many of us have erroneously begun to think of geocaching.com as public domain, mostly because it's always been so non-commercial. It's NOT public domain; Geocaching.com is owned by Groundspeak, which is owned by Jeremy. And Jeremy has the right to do with his website whatever he wants. However, I, as a user of the site, also have the right to stop using the site and/or to go elsewhere.

 

Keep up the good work, Jeremy!

 

25021_1200.gif

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"The only thing that really sticks out in my mind is this: who really owns this site? Does Jeremy? Does Groundspeak? Do we?"

 

Answer to the above from a previous quote. It doesn't matter if Jeremy or Groundspeak or The Faboulous Moolah owns the site. The bottom line is it is FREE. It is not a democracy. Look how hard it is just for a few people to come up with a logo they want to use. Can you imagine if even just one tenth of the users here wanted to have every feature/item they wanted? Then Groundspeak/Jeremy would have to spend 24 hours a day making changes. The bottom line is if something is free you have no right to complain about something that you may not like.

 

If you have a problem with this site then it would probably be better to contact Jeremey directly than to post it publicly.

 

Just my opinion.

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This has to be one of the least comercial sites/companies I've ever seen. There are no advertisemtns for anything not related to geocaching, and the advertisements that do exist are very unobtrusive. I often don't even see them when I'm not thinking about them. Of course there are marketed items. most of which are items to increase the user of the site and sport's enjoyment. Plus there is a membership which isn't required and is morely a place to make donations to the betterment of the sport in which we participate. Jeremy has taken a lot of risks with this enterprise which is now his livelihood which could easily be his demise. If for some reason (most likely commercial) someone tried to take away anything that Jeremy and co. have worked so hard to to make geocaching fun for us and to make thier livings. They have every moral and legal right to protect The companes involved in geocaching including and associated with this web site. I don't believe Groundspeak or anyone involved with it are trying to bully any users. They are simply protecting thier livelihood.

 

Now that I have reached the 10 caches benchmark I set to make my decision as to wether or not I would enjoy geocaching and the worth of becoming a member I am happy to say that I will be becoming a member soon simply for that fact that I would like to donate the money to better this site which I enjoy so much.

 

Eeyore

 

It took a GPS to get me away from technology.

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Why is that whenever someone has an opinion (free country, blah blah, free site, blah blah) - that person gets their post stomped on? K2Dave, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that - regardless of if I agree with you or not. If people never speak up, nothing would ever get changed.

 

As I said before, some things about this site are good, some things are bad. Right now I agree that the good outweighs the bad, so I give my $30 to support it. I understand I am under no obligation to do so and if I was really upset I'd give my money somewhere else!

 

quote:
If you have a problem with this site then it would probably be better to contact Jeremey directly than to post it publicly.


 

I have contacted Jeremy directly many many times. Sometimes he writes back, sometimes he doesn't. That's why I suggested he allow others to help administer the site. (Many volunteers have already offered to help!)

 

I understand he's busy, no big deal. Maybe he should get some help answering those emails. I should email him about that. Oh wait .... ah nevermind.

 

(Blatent attempt to change the topic.) So about this multi-cache I'm planning ...

 

- Dekaner of Team KKF2A

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I'd just like to echo the other posts that say kudos to Groundspeak.

 

I know hwo much it takes to run a relatively small site - this site is *huge* - and most probably expensive.

 

I think whatever money Jeremy and Groundspeak make out of this site will be far less than they deserve (and always will be - sadly, that's the lot of Internet sites nowadays).

 

But I would rather buy official Groundspeak cache logbooks/stickers/whatever for my latest caches than knock up a tacky substitue myself.

 

What we buy through Geocaching.com is all part of the service, as far as I can see.

 

------

O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.

 

Hamlet, II.2 252-253

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We need a Geocaching nightlight, Geocaching boxers, a gold Geocaching necklace!!!! And a Geocaching theme song (a catchy one like that "Peanutbutter-Jelly-Time, Peanutbutter-Jelly-Time"). And how about a Geocaching Sports Bar? Yes, a Sports Bar!!!! But seriously, we have the T-shirts and hats, we've dropped off Geocaching keychains in caches, and we're waiting for delivery of the new lapel pins. We appreciate that such items are available. Cache on, Team FISUR

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With 18 finds, it seems like you've barely given the site a chance, or at least, not taken advantage of all that it has to offer. I suggest you get out there and have some fun finding caches. I mean, that's what this site is all about, right? I am so grateful for all the cache hiders that have posted the caches to this site, because they have enhanced my life by taking me to places I wouldn't have gone (or even known about). Without this site, I doubt that I would have had the chance.

 

--Marky

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I think that it is essential that Jeremy run this site as a business and that includes:

 

Getting money to be able to support this site, and the staff that supports it. The subscriptions do that. (And the minor advertising)

Having unique items to identify and retain value in this site - that includes the logos, and control over them

Deciding that in the forums that Geocaching.com controls, not to have big discussions about competitors (if we want to have those discussions, feel free to have a non-Geocaching.com forum, that somebody else sponsors)

 

It's important that people remember that we are paying for product, from a provider, when we set up our charter memberships. We are not buying shares in Groundspeak or Geocaching.com. Our charter memberships get us product, not votes. I think that Jeremy listening to his customers so well is a virtue of this site and his support makes me want to purchase his product. So is his limited use of 'ads' - non-use of 'pop-up's, etc.

 

Of course, Jeremy depends on his customers a great deal - we create all the caches after all! - so the 'tight relationship' is not only nice but entirely appropriate given the unique cooperative nature of this activity.

 

But as to the logo protection, etc? I think that Jeremy protecting his logo is the right thing to do, and I fully support him doing this. Good grief, we are really lucky to have this site, and its kind of a disservice to Jeremy if we get offended that he has to run it like a business - if he didn't, Geocaching.com would go out of business, and then where would we be?!?!

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WOW - I always wanted to have a thread with so many posts so fast - not exactly the way I wanted to but hey...

 

anyhoo

 

Was I not suppose to post this? Some (at least one) have suggested that I email Jeremy. In most other message boards I've been to I am allowed to(encouraged to on some) post my dissatifaction with the site.

 

It's not like I am saying go to www.????.com it's a much better site, just that I have noticed a change in this site and my feelings toward it over the last year (and gave what I think caused it) and wanted to know

if others felt the same. I only mentioned me looking at other sites after the 1st round of replies. I was thinking after I see what else was out there I would be happier with this site.

 

[This message was edited by k2dave on October 11, 2002 at 06:22 PM.]

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I have been playing for just over one year. It wasn't commercial at all in the beginning. Now we do have membership fees and so forth, but remember, that is just to access higher functions. The core part (that being to log finds and place caches)Is. Still. Free.

 

Let me repeat that part.

 

The core part is still free. I can participate of the forums, place caches, hide caches and I can do so at no charge. I do not suffer from pop-ups, spam or telemarketing. I am not bombarded to buy geocaching.com merchandise. I am not pestered to sign up for the premium membership.

 

It's about as low-push as you can get. And the premium membership? This is not meant as an insult but it ain't all that. I mean some of the stuff is neat but is it worth $30? Absolutely not. Is geocaching.com worth $30? Absolutely. That's why i decided to be a premium member.

 

I run my own website. I work full time & can barely keep up with the stuff that goes on the site let alone the site itself. I pay $100 a year for the bandwith which is probably 1/100 of the cost & effort it takes to maintain this place. I get a lot out of this place, and I think it's only fair to support the framework that makes it possible.

 

On the surface the copyright folder might seem commercial, but it's really not. Groundspeak has a right to protect it's "property" in all sense of the word. Folks are trying to figure out a way to skirt the line so that they have something thats "theirs" and that still "belongs" to geocaching.com It's a fine line so the discussion is lengthy, terse and at times, technical. If it turns you off, then don't listen. ignore that folder. As Toe said, ignore the forums completely if necesary. If it really makes you uncomfortable then I guess you'll leave.

 

But I don't think you'll convince us this place is commcerial. IMHO it's completely the opposite. icon_wink.gif

 

alt.gif

 

www.gpswnj.com

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My question is, what happens if Jeremy decides the money they are taking in is not enough and forces payment to access the database or, God forbid, just shuts down for good? I appreciate the service the site provides and am willing to and do pay to support it. My only worry is that our whole sport is, for all intents and purposes, in the hands of one person/entity who very easily could kill the site and damage the sport for a long time. Be it through a bad business decision, maliciousness, or whatever. I have nothing against geocaching.com or Jeremy. Hell, I give 'em money every month. I just don't know if he/they have the best interests of the sport at stake.

If they were interested in promoting the sport they'd link to other geocaching sites. They wouldn't mind discussion of those sites or censor discussion about them either. Check out the links page under Other Orgs. Are there any links to other geocaching sites, nope. Other 'geocaching-esque' site, yes, but not other geocaching sites. Why? Is he afraid? As it is, he has the best site of all the others I've seen. He's done a great job.

I plan on continuing supporting the site and think they are doing a good job but wonder about some of the business decisions.

 

This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

Tony

 

--

Welcome to nowhere.nu. Now go home!

 

[This message was edited by Team Bohica on October 11, 2002 at 07:25 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by k2dave:

 

Was I not suppose to post this? Some (at least one) have suggested that I email Jeremy. In most other message boards I've been to I am allowed to(encouraged to on some) post my dissatifaction with the site. . . .


 

K2, I've really enjoyed this thread (although I completely disagree with your position in every possible way icon_razz.gif). If everyone agreed with everyone in these forums, they would be quite boring. Keep up the good work (or whatever you're doing). FISUR

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quote:
commercial? In what possible sense?

 

Perhaps commercial was the wrong word. What I mean is that this site has developed sort of attitude of "I'm what Geocaching is" and by doing so has lost part of what Geocaching was. Geocaching was an open community (some of you have posted this) and that was part of the heart and soul of geocaching, it now feels very closed and protected.

 

Some of you have stated that I could have avoided the messageboard and the like but that's not me - I like to find out about these things just I am somewhat less satified with the evolution of this site because I found out.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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K2Dave is correct in that www.geocaching.com has changed over time. Everything changes over time. Jeremy started the site xxx months ago with his own idea of what geocaching was all about. As time passed and other people joined in and tried it and expressed their opinions, preferences, suggestions, and demands geocaching has changed and evolved into what we see today. Virtuals, Locationless, Events, Multis, etc. have all been added over time as the sport grew in popularity. I have enjoyed some changes and disliked some others. My favorite feature is also the one that agrevates me the most - these forums. I find that I am the most agrevated when I haven't been out caching enough lately!

 

I think we should all go out and cache more and we will probably feel better!

 

Lou Catozz

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I definitely had no problem with that. This is an open forum, and is the correct place to post how you are feeling about the site. Change comes about in just this way. The changes that are bothering you don't bother everybody, but that's not a reason to keep your opinions or ideas to yourself. I've enjoyed reading this thread as it has brought forward a lot of pros and cons of the site, from many different perspectives.

 

I hope you can ignore, or side step around the things that are bothering you about the site, and get back to finding some geocaches (and you have to admit, this site is the place to be if you want to find them).

 

Kind regards,

Marky

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quote:
Originally posted by k2dave:

Perhaps commercial was the wrong word. What I mean is that this site has developed sort of attitude of "I'm what Geocaching is" and by doing so has lost part of what Geocaching was. Geocaching was an open community (some of you have posted this) and that was part of the heart and soul of geocaching, it now feels very closed and protected.


Dave, you were not wrong to post your feelings here at all. Even if I disagree with them, you have you right to your opinion. It's a tribute to the site that this line of discussion is even allowed, not locked down and deleted.

 

I have had an intrest in geocaching for over 2yrs, and been active here for over a year, so I've seen it all. Even with all the people that have joined, it still seems like a nice little community to me. I get busy at work for a few months, and slack off on caching and the forums, and a half dozen people from here email to make sure everything is ok. I pick up a few caches, and I get just as many emails from people glad to see me logging caches again. That doesn't sound like the cold, sterile community your talking about. I'm active in the IRC channel. Things get a liitle less formal there I guess. I have friends from all love the world there, and here in the forums, and I do mean friends. If I travel, they offer up their homes to me. They offer to be my tour guides.

Sounds like a community to me.

When one was taken from this planet way too soon, I cried. Someone 6000 miles away that I had never met. I cried like a baby for days.

Sorry, doesnt seem all that closed or commercial to me.

I know people who have met and fallen in love because of geocaching.

Doesnt seem that impersonal to me.

 

I guess like everything else in life, you get out what you put in.

 

Illegitimus non carborundum!

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Bohica:

Check out the http://www.geocaching.com/links.asp under Other Orgs. Are there any links to other geocaching sites, nope. Other 'geocaching-esque' site, yes, but not other geocaching sites. Why? Is he afraid?


 

Umm, first of all - this site is something that is owned by him, and also provides income which helps to maintain the site, etc. Linking to lots of other geocaching pages wouldn't make good business sense. Why would he want to lead his current users to other sites?

 

Second, the reason he doesn't link to any other geocaching sites is probably because most of them can't even compare with what this site has to offer. Everyone pretty much knows that if you wanna list or find a cache, you come here. Sure, there might be local or state based geocaching groups - but he can't go linking to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that creates a user group.

 

Think of this site as any other potential money making business - there isn't any reason a site owner would want to encourage his potential customers to visit other sites of the same subject.

 

Of course, these are only my assumptions... I don't wanna be sticking words into anyone's mouths. icon_biggrin.gif

 

banana.gifThe Toe Pages

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It's right there in the URL, this is a commercial site. Jeremy can run the show how he feels. I think in the end he does a pretty good job trying to manage the balance of protecting a copyright and letting lawyers rule the show. If we did not have such silly copyright rules, life would be a lot simpler.

 

But in the end, its his site. He built it, he made the copyrighted material and it's his to do with as he wishes. Don't like it, make your own web site. If it ends up being better then this site I will be there in a heartbeat.

 

A = A

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I'm just wondering if it is the site that is a problem for you or maybe just some of the people that use it. The reason that I ask this, is that for me after having started reading the forums and finding more caches, I have found myself enjoying this hobby less myself. I also realized that for myself it is that I take what I read (hear?) to personally. It is for this reason that I am normally unwilling to post my thoughts. Personally I don't have a problem with the site, only the thoughts and opinions of a couple or a few cachers (is that a word) in my area. I Started caching because I wanted a way to spend more time with my children doing something that they could get involved with. I will continue to cache as my children and my wife seem to enjoy it almost as much as I do. I will not due the event caches in my area though as I don't feel a part of the community and due to some cachers don't want to be a part of the community. I have bought things from the web site to help support it and I paid for a membership. I will buy more in the future to continue supporting it. And I will continue to cache. Every one has a right to their opinion as due I, just because their opinion is right for them does not make mine wrong. If they can not see that then it their problem. I will continue to enjoy myself.

 

I don't know if I make sense but I was trying to post on topic. Sorry if I don't

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Kusanagi, I find what you posted very intersting. I don't get stressed out when I'm out in the woods, okay sometimes I do. (Why oh why did they have to hide the cache in the middle of that briar patch?!) ... but the forums can be a curse at times. Especially when things are taken out of context.

 

- Dekaner of Team KKF2A

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quote:
Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

 

Umm, first of all - this site is something that is owned by him, and also provides income which helps to maintain the site, etc. Linking to lots of other geocaching pages wouldn't make good business sense. Why would he want to lead his current users to other sites?

 


 

You're right. It is his business and he can do whatever he wants. That's fine with me, I even give him money to support the uses I get out of it.

 

I'm just surprised that noone else has even the slightest worry that our entire sport/hobby hinges on the decisions of basically one person. Yes, he seems to have made good decisions so far but what happens if this site were to go away for whatever reason? How many of you have duplicated caches on the 'other' site just in case?(I can't even say it's name because of censorship)

 

What happens when what's good for geocaching.com isn't good for geocaching and hurts the entire hobby?

 

Don't get defensive I'm just asking questions that I wonder about sometimes. Remember, I give money to the site just like most of you too so I must approve of what's been done so far.

 

Tony

 

--

Welcome to nowhere.nu. Now go home!

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quote:
It's Geocaching.COM not Geocaching.ORG

 

actually it's both but it really doesn't matter as the .com/net/org endings have many crossovers and you can really tell nothing by the ending - plus this argument is getting tired.

 

Even though not actually my point Team Bohica makes a very good point (possibly another thread should be started). What happens if Jeremy, for whatever reason, stops doing what he does for this site? Actually I didn't know that mentioning a rival web site was not even permitted (and automatically blocked from what I hear).

 

anyhoo it seems like most of the GCers out there like (or don't mind) the changes or don't know of them and like the site - which is fine. Interestingly I have have gotten some emails supporting my feelings.

 

----(sig line)---> Did you ever do any trail maintainence? - if so you will know that all but the most worn trails need continuous maintenance to prevent mother nature from reclaiming it. herd paths are quickly reclaimed - k2dave

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Bohica:

My question is, what happens if Jeremy decides the money they are taking in is not enough and forces payment to access the database


 

I promised that long ago this would not happen.

 

quote:
or, God forbid, just shuts down for good?

 

I would have an ftp site with the database (sans the personal contact info).

 

quote:
My only worry is that our whole sport is, for all intents and purposes, in the hands of one person/entity who very easily could kill the site and damage the sport for a long time.

 

Sure. But that can happen with any leader. Of course since the site is owned by Groundspeak I could be labelled a despot. But it seems to work well. I also now have folks who can take the site on if something bad happened to me.

 

quote:
I just don't know if he/they have the best interests of the sport at stake.

 

Folks say Geocaching.com isn't geocaching. If so, why would it matter? I happen to have a pretty good track record though.

 

quote:
Are there any links to other geocaching sites, nope. Other 'geocaching-esque' site, yes, but not other geocaching sites. Why? Is he afraid?

 

Yes. Terribly afraid.

 

Well, not really. I just don't believe in their ideology, and believe that landowners prefer having only one contact when they need content removed from the 'net. You can certainly use search engines to seek out other sites if you want. The reason why we put posts in the message queue for one of the other sites, is folks would constantly spam this one with ads to visit theirs. If the message is not such a post, it may take a bit of time to get to approving it, but we will do so.

 

quote:
This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

Since I do pay for it, I appreciate the post. Hopefully I can clear up some of the questions.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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quote:
Originally posted by Team Bohica:

What happens when what's good for geocaching.com isn't good for geocaching and hurts the entire hobby?


 

That's bad business. Isn't it?

 

I know you folks aren't really picking (just concerned), but what would you do in my shoes? I'm really just curious. Perhaps someone has a better way of doing things than I have.

 

k2dave, sorry I haven't quoted your posts, but Team Bohica has mirrored your sentiment, so I figured I'd just address these points.

 

By the way, wo are these people emailing you support? Are they expecting some kind of retribution here in the forums? It seems to be a pretty even handed discussion so far. If they have some other points to bring up, they should feel free to respond.

 

There's certainly no reason to censor a discussion like this, and no it isn't inappropriate to discuss it here. I'd rather do it here where I read often and can respond to misinformation if it crops up.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

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Originally posted by Rubbertoe:

 

quote:
Second, the reason he doesn't link to any other geocaching sites is probably because most of them can't even compare with what this site has to offer. Everyone pretty much knows that if you wanna list or find a cache, you come here. Sure, there might be local or state based geocaching groups - but he can't go linking to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that creates a user group.


 

What's wrong with having links to other geocaching sites? We are members of two popular geocaching websites and love them both. The "other site" just happens to be based in our home town, and we have gotten a lot out of it. It might not be as popular or have as many members as this site, but the people are great! We have been to two geocaching picnics where members from both sites get along and have great times! The owner of the other site is NOT a "Tom, Dick and Harry" either. You don't even know him! We have met him personally and he is helpful and gives back to the geocaching community. (You should have seen the two gps' that he donated for the raffle! MINT!!! Too bad we didn't win.) The site does has great features like this site does, too and is by far NOT another "user group". icon_biggrin.gif

 

We will continue to appreciate both sites like we have been. The respect and information we obtain from this site is wonderful, but it is such a turn off when someone is so one-sided when they don't have ALL the facts. icon_eek.gif

 

Having a link between the two wouldn't be so bad. The other site offers a link to this one, what's the big deal. icon_rolleyes.gif

 

We do, however, agree with no pop up's and the site being too commercial. Both sites are fine just the way they are!

 

Two's company; three's a crowd! icon_razz.gif

 

Duane N Candie

Upinyachit

icon_smile.gif

flowerpower.gif

 

Our feet go where the caches are! feet.gif

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Well im new to all of this but Jeremy just won my support! I applaud you Jeremy for allowing these posts to be "voiced", when most "others" on other sites would delete any negative posts.As for finding this site commercial *HAHAHA* sorry for that burst but i find that statement ridiculous, look anywhere else on the web that allows "free" information and they blast you with pop-ups and subscriptions let alone the blasted cookies!!! Anyway just like to say thank you Jeremy and/or grounspeak for the excellent website that allowed me to discover this excellent "sport" GEOCACHING!!! before here I used my vista for fishing and hiking, Now "The World Is My Playing Field"

 

Freedom of Speech, Are we really "free" to speak?

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quote:
Originally posted by k2dave:

Perhaps commercial was the wrong word. What I mean is that this site has developed sort of attitude of "I'm what Geocaching is" and by doing so has lost part of what Geocaching was. Geocaching was an open community (some of you have posted this) and that was part of the heart and soul of geocaching, it now feels very closed and protected.


 

I suddenly "got it". I think. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're worried about the fact that there is no such organization to the sport. I think an analogy for you would be saying how kids used to play stickball on the stoop, but then the parents got involved and started creating rules, requiring umpires, then laws were established regarding unruly parents, and then they couldn't play on the street so they moved it to the ball field, a league was created and under the guise of "we need to protect the children" now the coaches & every members of the support staff down to the groundscrew need to have background checks.

 

In other words, it's not about the sport any more, it's all rules, regulations and legal stuff that has nothing to do with the core sport itself. Is that your problem?

 

If so, I can truly understand that.

 

I decided to do a google search for geocaching you'll find several other sites each of which has their own database of caches. None of them has the depth, the quality of site, or (for lack of a better word) the panache (did I even spell that right???) of this place.

 

Some are somewhat interesting such as

 

http://www.geocaching-fun.com/, which is lookingto be a database of tourist attraction. Very very slim pickings so far, but they do have a link to geocaching.com

 

One that interested me was this one,

 

http://www.navicache.com/

 

because it lists numerous caches found here. I wonder how exactly they're doing that.

 

It also seems you have taken an issue with how geocaching.com IS geocaching. To use my analogy, kids who continue to play off the stoop aren't viewed as legit because they're not part of the league. The league IS baseball. There is no baseball without the league.

 

Am I getting your sentiment right? If so, then I can sorta understand your feelings. Commercial is probably the right word, but it wasn't what we were thinking of when we read the commercial.

 

Assuming I've gotten your point, I'm not sure how to respond. I would say that if you do feel that way you should try to support the other geocaching websites, especially those that have their own cache databases. Other then I can't really think of anything else to say. The "sport" is dependant on a central database. It isn't as if one can "geocache" without other participant and a place to store the ifnromation and the logs.

 

Can there be "competing" websites & databases? Sure. The problem is that it's almost like the DVD format problem. A lot of folks are staying on the sidelines (me included) not jus because of price but because I want to make sure I get the format that will prevail. Why should I nvest my money in DVD+RAM when in 2 years it may bo obsolete? I want to make sure there will be longevity to what I'm doing. Likewise if I go the trouble of placing & seeking caches at a newbie geocachin.com wanna-be (not to sound as insulting as that probably sounds) what happensa if in 6 mon ths they go belly up? Once someone has established themselves asa leader, they are likely to remain, while newbies may die off. WHich creates an inherant problem (both here & in many other situations with competing formats) no one want to support the one until its established itself, but without support, it can't estabish itself and so it dies.

 

Whch sucks. No easy solutions here.

 

alt.gif

 

www.gpswnj.com

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