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Let's all stop geocaching - it's the right thing to do


Rigour

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Between the parks service and the occasional thread on this, I thought I'd start a thread which lays out the reductio ad absurdum, and see if I'm not the only person who thinks some people are a little nuts.

 

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle postulates that the very act of observing something alters it. Given that, I think that the best thing for everyone who loves nature to do is to stop geocaching immediately, and never again visit parks, so that they will remain pristine and uncontaminated for future generations to ignore.

 

Is it just me, who grew up on a farm in the country who feels that this bruhaha about social trails is much ado about nothing? I'm not talking about cases where there are rare patches of endangered flora but holy smokes, people worried about footprints and opportunistic seeds carried in on hiker's boots? Let me be frank here and say I don't give a rats patoot about that.

 

Things I would worry about:

 

1. disturbance of nesting areas or as I say patches of endangered flora

 

2. non-biodegradable garbage left in situ (yes, that means as far as I'm concerned you can throw your apple cores away with total disdain for the many species which have been rendered extinct by discarded apple cores)

 

3. careless use of loud / polluting motorized vehicles where there are not trails designed for their use

 

 

If there's some part of this I'm really missing, I'm honestly interested in understanding it. But bent tree branches? Are we talking about those dead scrub branches killed out below the canopy? Get real.

 

Is it just me the uninitiate who doesn't understand this all? Should I be ashamed that like the bears, I too have sh-- in the wooods?

 

[This message was edited by Rigour on July 31, 2002 at 08:00 AM.]

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If it weren't for my mother telling me about this geocaching. I would never probably notice anything different with wooded areas or state parks. This game gets us to really look around and visit more places than we normally wouldnt. I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif

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If it weren't for my mother telling me about this geocaching. I would never probably notice anything different with wooded areas or state parks. This game gets us to really look around and visit more places than we normally wouldnt. I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif

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Your post is far to general. I've been in areas that have been trampled down so bad that I've thought (while there) "oh, too bad this is no longer a very nice place to be - broken tree branches, you name it. I don't like it. Maybe it was nice one day. A time when I would enjoy visiting that spot. But in the current state I don't like where I am because it looks like too many other people have been here. It is very unappealing to me. The area needs a break and a chance to grow back a bit. Its just as bad as going into an area and seeing a bunch of garbage - you think, yup a bunch of other people were here, dadgum. Nature is nice when there is no evidence of anyone having been there or at least little evidence. Geocachers should be responsable to a degree and remove a cache after a period of time, or at least make it unavailable if the area is looking like sh.. In the long run it makes it a nicer place to visit.

 

TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT

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I am stunned. My idealism is faltering. I cannot believe people with a hobby that promotes "Cache in, Trash out" could be like that. Whatever happened to simple common sense? I might expect that from some low IQ yahoos but not from anybody who can figure out how to operate a GPSr. (Apologies to regular IQ yahoos, Low IQ non-yahoos, and people who drink Yahoo. (Shake, it’s great!))

 

My two caches and my son’s one cache are on land that I couldn’t begin to guess who owns. None of them get enough visitors that nature can’t recover before the next visitor.

 

I understand the frustration the rhetorical question presents. I refuse to “dumb down” my caches. I refuse to attempt to create “environmentally perfect” caches because it simply doesn’t apply to where I hide them. I refuse to accept BS from a low level slack jawed park employee who would have us believe he/she “owns” the park.

 

So what do we do, give up like the post suggests? Should we get some of the “holier than thou” cachers to make up some more rules for us?

 

Giving up is not a viable option for me. I enjoy the hobby too much.

More rules will only create fertile ground for the obstinate among us (who me?!) and we’ll end up with a fractured organization. Then there’ll be an underground version of the game which will only further divide us.

 

IMHO: Relax a bit. If we learned nothing from the Clinton administration, we learned that even the most severe storms blow over. Bad press will too. Keep right on navigating the good course; keep the VMG as close to the actual speed as possible. Reprimand the idiots both in the forums and in the field. WE know the good we do. Like all good it will prove self evident.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

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quote:
Originally posted by Rigour:

OK, Rockdoctors, thanks for that. I haven't been in places that were that busy up here in the Great White North, but I can see how that might happen.


 

I think you've just hit on part of the problem people are having understanding the underlying issue. I grew up in Montana. There's a cache near my home town that's just off an old logging wood in the rocks in a pine forest that's recovering. It's been visited 14 times in the year that it's been there. The area could stand 50 times as many cachers without much damage.

 

On the other hand, where I live now, there was a cache that got visited four or five times a week on average. It was in a rain forest, where the canopy is fragile. The bushwacking that's going on around it has created an erosion gully that could easily grow into a stream bed. It is because of the bushwacking that the cache became too obvious and was finally plundered. The cache is gone, but the trail damage isn't.

 

It is possible to plant caches even in sensitive areas and not do a lot of damage. There are many in the Santa Cruz mountains that qualify.

 

But it's also pretty easy to plant them where the traffic does a lot of harm to fragile ecosystems.

 

If we don't want the hobby restricted even further, then we need to do some pretty simple things. Working with the local agencies so that they understand what caching is and aren't afraid of it is a good start.

 

Treating professional rangers with a little more respect than assuming that they're 'slack jawed' whatever, wouldn't hurt.

 

Planting caches in ways that minimize their impact isn't hard and should be one of our goals.

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quote:
Originally posted by SunCrush & Traumajunkie21:

I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif


"BOOTY NUGGETS"? Exactly what kind of caches do you hunt? Is that what you get when you find the Mustang Ranch cache? icon_wink.gif

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

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quote:
Originally posted by SunCrush & Traumajunkie21:

I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif


"BOOTY NUGGETS"? Exactly what kind of caches do you hunt? Is that what you get when you find the Mustang Ranch cache? icon_wink.gif

 

By appointment to the Court of HRM Queen Mikki I.

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It seems to me that a few things make this issue largely go away. I list my own thoughts below. However, we also should calm down. Either 'eco-freak' or 'personal-liberty-freak' doesn't cut it... common sense does...

 

Follow Jeremy's rules - they make lots of sense

 

Use common sense - don't put caches in places that are clearly going to cause problems to environment - obviously, as my father would put it "worrying about one grass-blade in a ball-field" shouldn't happen, but don't put a cache in a bald-eagle's nest...

 

When you visit a cache, if you notice that it seems to have made a section of a nice place a bit of a dump, let the cache owner know

 

If you place a cache, read what people write, visit it yourself, and deal with it. If you find the cache site is a dump, move the cache

 

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Joel and Fran:

 

You're renewing my faith in common sense. Idealism level on the rise. Thanks!

 

See everybody, it's all so simple!

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

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I was asking about placing a cache in another county park. (I already have one, with permission of the Parks Department.) He was pleased with the park choice because it's one not visited frequently and has had problems in the past with loitering, littering and such. He likes geocaching because it attracts the types of people that he wants using the parks. In fact, he told me that he is writing up the park newsletter and is going to *advertise* my first cache. He also gave me some park brochures for the cache and a disk with the park logo to put on the cache note and possibly the webpage. The only thing he asks is that we ask first before placing a cache and put in the description that it was placed with permission of the county parks' department.

 

I realize not all naturalists are as accomodating and in this respect, we are quite lucky. I do believe, however, that geocaching has grown too big to operate under the radar of the various parks. They will find out about it sooner or later and will quite possibly be less open to it once an attempt has made to do behind their backs. Sure we could keep putting them out there and letting them go until they get discovered but it seems much easier to work with them and make it something beneficial for all. There is one county in MI that the parks' department put out their own multicache that has gotten good reviews in the logs. It seems to be very challenging and the parks department is going to draw a name from all the finders and give a way a park pass for next year.

 

One last note, when discussing a cache I am planning in a neighboring county, not only was I given the name of the person I needed to contact, I was also given a tip on a possible good hiding location that I didn't know about. We've hiked this park many times but obviously don't know it as well as the naturalists.

 

So in order to answer the original question, "no" I don't think we just quit geocaching. I just think that we need to work with those in charge.

 

GeoMedic - team leader of GeoStars

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I'm sure there are times when you can tell, but is it always so easy to tell if a trail has been worn down only by geocachers?

We have a pretty heartly growing season up here (short as it is) and have not spent a lot of time out of state so maybe I'm ignorant. I have seen trails left by swamp donkeys up here that would take a bulldozer a week to mimic. I have seen fields of rasberries trampled down by bears so bad they look like alien crop circles. Beaver and deer even leave trails that look like humans have been through on a daily basis.

There is always a lot of talk of parks in these discussions - most of the parks I have been to up here have numerous worn down trails. They all look human, but if you walk down many of them they peter out or end up in a bog or some other place a human would not normally trek.

And it's only natural for any half intelligent animal to take the path of least resistance and use a trail that has been used by another, then another. Any trails we make I can guarantee are used by many animals when you aren't looking (sometimes when you are).

It just seems to me this is rarely mentioned in any threads here, and that all damage must have been done only by geocachers?

I do agree we need to do our part within reason, the world is a lot tougher than many give it credit for.

I am willing to give up when all other forms of nature will do the same!

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The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

...

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...a-hole.

 

Full monologue published without permission at this link.

 

I always thought this was funny. And, it speaks to one side of this issue. I'm sure there is a middle ground available.

 

stealyourcache.jpg "Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out." -Dru Morgan www.theheavenlyhost.com/dru

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Saw an interview with a tree hugger over the weekend discussing dams and other manmade structures. He said that in 10,000 years they won't be there and (paraphrased as best I remember it) "Thank God, man won't be around to mess things up anymore." FADE TO BLACK.

 

Be Seeing You!

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quote:
Originally posted by Number 6:

Saw an interview with a tree hugger over the weekend discussing dams and other manmade structures. He said that in 10,000 years they won't be there and (paraphrased as best I remember it) "Thank God, man won't be around to mess things up anymore." FADE TO BLACK.

 

Be Seeing You!


No, by then apes will have taken over the world.

 

25021_1200.gif

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Okay! I admit I'm new here so wth are "booty nuggets"?? icon_confused.gif

 

icon_eek.gif Sounds a bit weird!!

 

Kathy in WV

 

icon_razz.gif

quote:
Originally posted by SunCrush & Traumajunkie21:

If it weren't for my mother telling me about this geocaching. I would never probably notice anything different with wooded areas or state parks. This game gets us to really look around and visit more places than we normally wouldnt. I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif


 

Kathy in WV

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Okay! I admit I'm new here so wth are "booty nuggets"?? icon_confused.gif

 

icon_eek.gif Sounds a bit weird!!

 

Kathy in WV

 

icon_razz.gif

quote:
Originally posted by SunCrush & Traumajunkie21:

If it weren't for my mother telling me about this geocaching. I would never probably notice anything different with wooded areas or state parks. This game gets us to really look around and visit more places than we normally wouldnt. I'll admit to that, hiking i use to hate, but if BOOTY NUGGETS are on the top, I'm game!! icon_biggrin.gif


 

Kathy in WV

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quote:
Originally posted by kathy88:

Okay! I admit I'm new here so wth are "booty nuggets"??


 

"Booty Nuggets" are simply the prizes in the cache. My question is who here came up with that term???

 

quote:
Originally posted by Team Screamapillar:

What's a swamp donkey?


 

Swamp Donkey = Moose = Bullwinkle = Big Smelly Animal (good eating though).

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How about this ???????

 

The person who placed the cache should be responsible for it and the enviorment around its condition. You know how the area was when you placed the cache. Go back and check it from time to time. If the area is deteriorating then retire the cache, move the cache or archive it until the area recovers. Seems simple enough to me. But then thats just me! icon_smile.gif

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How about this ???????

 

The person who placed the cache should be responsible for it and the enviorment around its condition. You know how the area was when you placed the cache. Go back and check it from time to time. If the area is deteriorating then retire the cache, move the cache or archive it until the area recovers. Seems simple enough to me. But then thats just me! icon_smile.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Steak N Eggs:

Hasn't this been hashed before??????

 

"My gps say's it RIGHT HERE".

http://www.geogadgets.com


It doesn't matter if this has been hashed over before. If you don't like this discussion go elsewhere. Otherwise take part. Some of us are interested in the subjest. I do't want to see another thread that might be interesting to some die because of rude comments and sarcasm(not saying you were in particular - but, it always seems to go that way).

 

TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT

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Criminal:

"I might expect that from some low IQ yahoos"

Take your attitude elsewhere please. Your only trying to kill the thread again.

"None of them get enough visitors that nature can’t recover before the next visitor"

Great. So what - this doesn't apply to the case being presented does it?????

If you don't like discussing this topic then don't. Or, use a reasonable angle to present your argument. Its sickening sometimes to see you respond this way all of the time.

 

Your approach has a “holier than thou” attitude.

 

TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT

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Rockdocs:

 

It’s obvious we do not see eye to eye on this issue as I suspect we don’t on many. That being said, I will correct some misconceptions you have regarding me, my posts, and my comments.

 

First, your rant is in the wrong post and neither this nor the correct post originated with you. You have no authority to be directive.

 

Second, do not presume to tell me when or where I may post. If you don’t like what I have to say, fine, everybody has and is entitled to an opinion. Telling me to take my attitude (?) elsewhere is not productive. My logo and name appear in the upper left of all of my posts, you may simply skip over them if you like. In addition, you are confusing an opinion with an attitude; nonetheless both are mine to do with as I please.

 

Third, yes, it does apply or I would not have written it.

 

Fourth, see a doctor if you are becoming ill at anything I’ve posted. You are obviously far too fragile if you become sick due to the way I respond “all the time”. One should never apply absolute phrases in communication; it diminishes your case against me.

 

To summarize, I will continue to do as I like within the guidelines of reasonableness and applicable rules regarding posts to the forums. I will do the same for caches I hide or find, stomping my fat foot when and where I please, also within the guidelines of reasonableness and the rules presently being employed. You do not have the authority, intellect, or brute strength to tell me otherwise.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

Rockdocs:

 

It’s obvious we do not see eye to eye on this issue as I suspect we don’t on many. That being said, I will correct some misconceptions you have regarding me, my posts, and my comments.

 

First, your rant is in the wrong post and neither this nor the correct post originated with you. You have no authority to be directive.

 

Second, do not presume to tell me when or where I may post. If you don’t like what I have to say, fine, everybody has and is entitled to an opinion. Telling me to take my attitude (?) elsewhere is not productive. My logo and name appear in the upper left of all of my posts, you may simply skip over them if you like. In addition, you are confusing an opinion with an attitude; nonetheless both are mine to do with as I please.

 

Third, yes, it does apply or I would not have written it.

 

Fourth, see a doctor if you are becoming ill at anything I’ve posted. You are obviously far too fragile if you become sick due to the way I respond “all the time”. One should never apply absolute phrases in communication; it diminishes your case against me.

 

To summarize, I will continue to do as I like within the guidelines of reasonableness and applicable rules regarding posts to the forums. I will do the same for caches I hide or find, stomping my fat foot when and where I please, also within the guidelines of reasonableness and the rules presently being employed. You do not have the authority, intellect, or brute strength to tell me otherwise.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................


Thanks for supporting my argument!

I will avoid your posts.

 

TRUST ME I KNOW WHAT THE HELL I'M TALKING ABOUT

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quote:
Originally posted by Rigour:

 

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle postulates that the very act of observing something alters it.

 


 

Not quite. It might be more appropriate to say that some properties (ex. particle spin) do not have a determinate value without a context. An observer isn't really necessary, just a point of reference (ex. a measuring instrument).

 

Interaction between observer and environment cannot really be credited to Heisenberg. Point of view, so to speak, has played a part in many different physics theories (ex. special and general relativity). The impossibility of true objectivity is commented on in the writings of numerous ancient philosphers and scientists.

 

As for your main point. I think caching should absolutely be permitted. It gives the gun toting, government hating crowd something to do, and a web site to track them (big brother IS wathcing)...

 

-jjf

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Last summmer I visited the Escalante National Monument in Southern Utah. It's designated as a "wilderness area" that is to be unaltered except for the existing dirt roads going through it. Visitors were advised to not step on fragile desert soil areas (yeah, I scoffed a bit too until I learned about desert soil ecology), to not disturb cacti, to pack in- pack out----all the stuff you would expect.

 

Now here's where they went overboard: Visitors were instructed (I'm sure it would have been DEMANDED if some people had their way) to wear desert-colored clothing and gear so as to blend into the landscape! Wearing a yellow T-shirt might so bend the light waves as to cause irreparable harm, apparently. Bright colors were said to mar the landscape. Now keep in mind, this place is hundreds of thousands if not millions of acres of desolate landscape. I stayed on one of the principle dirt roads for about 60 miles and took half the day to stop and enjoy the place- I saw three other vehicles the entire July day and no other people. It seems to me that if you leave the roadways, taking something with bright colors might make all the difference between your being spotted from a rescue helicopter and your gnawed skeleton being found with tan outdoor gear in the year 2042.

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Some folks just don't like humor.......

 

Others have been attacked in other threads as well. The common thread seems to be humor. They just don't have it and thus cannot appreciate it.

 

BTW, my foot is not really fat.

 

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

What is the price of experience, do men buy it for a song,

Or wisdom for a dance in the street.................

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quote:
Originally posted by Number 6:

Saw an interview with a tree hugger over the weekend discussing dams and other manmade structures. He said that in 10,000 years they won't be there and (paraphrased as best I remember it) "Thank God, man won't be around to mess things up anymore." FADE TO BLACK.


 

You know, I want to know where those 'tree huggers' are when I forest begins to burn? Hmmm??? Are they throwing their bodies in front of the onrush of flames in an attempt to stop the destruction? NO.

 

I mean, logging is such a heinous activity, even with strict controls to these people, and yet, undergrowth left to grow uncontrolled and logging roads that are bulldozed in order to control 'unnecessary' traffic into such areas are what is causing these forest fires to burn uncontrollably.

 

Understand that I am familiar with the cycle of regeneration that occurs with forests and fires and I understand that the fires in Oregon, etc. are natural and will, to some degree, benefit the flora. But when is enough enough? It has taken the average Joe a few years to realize the benefits of forest management and normal ecological cycles, but some folks gotta take everything to the extreme. It isn't always "my way or the highway"... there is a middle ground.

 

It is just that right now it is on fire.

 

The land that is burning will rejuvenate itself. It is a natural cycle. The houses destroyed and the lives lost however, won't.

 

RedwoodRed In Flames

---

 

How much red would a redwood red if a redwood could red wood?

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