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Appropriate Logs


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So there I was reading a thread and a word someone found offensive was quoted from a log. The thread was shut down before I could respond. Such is life.

 

However it brings up a valid question. What's ok in a log? Do they all have to be rated G? Can they mention real life? Make fun of other races, can you talk about your true and honest reaction to being stalked by someone interested in traveling the the hershey highway with you while seeking a cache?

 

Or should they all describe how much litter you picked up and the weather? Or maybe just the far to normal one line comment.

 

My take is that log is yours to express yourself as you see fit, and that any 'word' or otherwise offensive story is between you and the cache owner. But then maybe I have it wrong.

 

The floor is open.

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I guess anyone can put whatever he or she wants in a log. I would not like to see any kind of rule that logs have to be G rated or not contain certain words. At the same time, I would hope that people be sensible when writing a log and keep in mind the wide variety of people who will read it.

 

Of course, the cache owner can also delete or encrpyt logs. So, if someone posts something that is potentially offensive, he or she runs the risk of a deleted or encrypted log. That seems fair to me.

 

Consider the analogy to first amendment speech. You are more than welcome to come say what you want in front of the State Capitol building, but I am also just as free to walk off and not listen to you. If you come to my private home, I am free to not only refuse to listen, but to kick you off the premises.

 

pokeanim3.gif

 

[This message was edited by carleenp on September 10, 2003 at 05:43 PM.]

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What is offensive to some will not offend others. When I read that thread, I knew it wouldn't take long before it was shut down. I don't think it was said with too much malice, as the log could have been much more mean and obscene. Don't turn on the TV, you'll find worse there. As for me, it takes a whole lot more to offend me.

 

"I'm 35 Years old, I am divorced, and I live in van down by the river!" - Matt Foley

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quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:

Consider the anaogy to first amendment speech. You are more than welcome to come say what you want in front of the State Capitol building, but I am also just as free to walk off and not listen to you. If you come to my private home, I am free to not only refuse to listen, but to kick you off the premises.


 

And since this is not the government, your first amendment rights do not apply here, so I should be able to feel free to encrypt or delete any log on one of my caches that I find offensive without fear of someone crying censorship.

 

The common sense regarding what to place in a cache should carry over to what to put in the logs. While talk in the forums can get crusty at times, you can just avoid them as they are really not a necessary part of the game. The logs, however, usually cannot be avoided.

 

- - - - -

Uh oh...

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quote:
Originally posted by SamLowrey:

I'm more concerned with Nudecacher...


 

In his defense it's Nudecacher NOT Lewd-cacher!

 

Now, for everyone else on this topic:

 

Please, let's not promote censorship to childhood levels. I was very glad to leave childhood behind, and enjoy participating with educated adults regarding adult topics.

 

Full free to be open, honest and direct in all your logs at any of my caches. If you don't want to be an adult, I don't want to have anything to do with you.

 

Let's grow up and take responsibility for ourselves. It's not my job to parent you and shelter you from what you might find offensive. Change the channel, don't read the forum thread you expect not to appreciate, don't read logs you won't like or written by people you know are all grown up (or the opposite for that matter).

 

I predict the regression of humanity if this trend continues--don't contribute to it!

 

IMO,

 

Randy

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quote:
Originally posted by Cheesehead Dave:

 

And since this is not the government, your first amendment rights do not apply here, so I should be able to feel free to encrypt or delete any log on one of my caches that I find offensive without fear of someone crying censorship.

 

The common sense regarding what to place in a cache should carry over to what to put in the logs. While talk in the forums can get crusty at times, you can just avoid them as they are really not a necessary part of the game. The logs, however, usually cannot be avoided.

 


 

Great Point Cheesehead,

 

Man, that sounds bad without the *Dave* behind it...lol.

 

Anyway, the *censorship* issue is just as you said. There is no *right* to not be censored by each other. There is a *right* to not be censored by our government, as it should be.

 

My honest belief is in self censorship, addressed by the *common sense* argument above. There are some things that are just inappropriate, and others that may be *deemed* inappropriate by TPTB.

 

My guess is they have the final say, it's their playground.

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif

"Trade up, trade even, or don't trade!!!" My philosophy of life.

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[Edited 9/10/03 4:45 p.m. Bold items added or corrected.]

 

I guess I'll respond because I started the debate in the other thread, and ultimately, I guess it was some of my comments that contributed to the thread being locked down. It seems I have a pretty strong record of participating in threads that ultimately get locked, let's see if I can avoid that here. icon_biggrin.gif

 

My point with my post was that, upon being directed to an interesting (albeit scary) story in a log, I came across a questionable comment. When I come across such blatent derogatory comments I choose to question them, rather than just "let them go." I think the comment (while not particular offensive to me, RK) could be offensive to some. So I questioned it. I will always question such behavior when I come across it, and I expect any behavior of mine of a questionable nature be questioned also. (That's a lot of questions.)

 

Anyway, I'm sure, on occasion, I've been know to toss around a derogatory comment or three, and I would expect on such occasions, for people to call me on my behavior.

 

I'm not trying to censor anyone, or be the cache log police, I'm just hoping that conversation on such a topic will make people think twice about posting such a log.

 

I don't agree with RK when he says that whatever you want to post is between you and the cache owner. I can imagine some pretty ugly behavior if that's the standard.

 

I do agree with Drat19's recommendation of "calling it how you see it" in your cache log, but does this mean that you have to use terms such as the one used in that log? (I fear that quoting the word(s) will lock the thread. Again.) I think not. I think the situation could have been called like it was seen without potential offense to a huge group of people, a majority of which would probably also demonize such behavior.

 

Further, if this log is demonstrative of how someone is "seeing it," then s/he probably has larger issues than can be discussed in the forums.

 

Lastly, I don't think I've been overtly accused of it yet, but before I am accused as doing such, please keep in mind that I never suggested that any log should be edited, deleted, made G rated, made unoffensive to everyone, be subjected to rules or regulations on what you can and cannot include, etc. I simply asked the log author whether the comment was necessary or appropriate. And I ask you the same.

 

Also, remember this bit of wisdom, "profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate, @$$hole."

 

Pan

 

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

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quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:

I do agree with Drat19's recommendation of "calling it how you see it" in your cache log, but does this mean that you have to use terms such as the one used in that log? (I fear that quoting the word(s) will lock the thread. Again.)


 

In reply to where you cited me directly: I agree that we ought not to use the "known offensive" terms when others will suffice (case in point: in my log about the disturbing New Orleans cache I went to that I linked elsewhere, I used the term "men's alternative lifestyle", but I also cited the fact the one man who we saw in those woods had his pants in an obviously undone condition...but I danced around what was REALLY going on through creative use of verbiage), but therein lies the very heart of the problem: Corporate America (where I live during the days) as well as politically-correct America (where we are all forced to live) has created this soft "code speak" language, where we can get away with making offensive comments by using inoffensive language. I guess I'm just ranting now (I think I'm channeling George Carlin...those times when he's funny but he's really deadly serious), but I'm just fed up with having to use this language to say the very same things Hammack was trying to say in his uncensored format. Apparently this is what we've come to.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

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quote:
Originally posted by drat19:

In reply to where you cited me directly: I agree that we ought not to use the "known offensive" terms when others will suffice (case in point: in my log about the disturbing New Orleans cache I went to that I linked elsewhere, I used the term "men's alternative lifestyle", but I also cited the fact the one man who we saw in those woods had his pants in an obviously undone condition...but I danced around what was REALLY going on through creative use of verbiage), but therein lies the very heart of the problem: Corporate America (where I live during the days) as well as politically-correct America (where we are all forced to live) has created this soft "code speak" language, where we can get away with making offensive comments by using inoffensive language. I guess I'm just ranting now (I think I'm channeling George Carlin...those times when he's funny but he's really deadly serious), but I'm just fed up with having to use this language to say the very same things Hammack was trying to say in his uncensored format. Apparently this is what we've come to.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi


 

Well now, I'm confused. Do you "agree that we ought not to use the 'known offensive' terms when others will suffice," or are you "fed up with having to use this [code-speak] language ..." and think that "this is what we've come to." (Seeming to imply that "this" is a bad thing.)

 

Your log seemed appropriately written to me. I wouldn't question it, but someone else might, and I welcome that discussion.

 

At any rate, and OT, we both agree that you shouldn't have had to have the experience you did have on that geocache.

 

Pan

 

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

Simple guideline about logs: type 'em like your Mom is gonna be the next one to read them...


 

I like that advice. But what if my mom is George Carlin!! icon_eek.gif

 

Pan

 

What does anybody want? I want the Red Sox to win the World Series. - Bill Pullman as Alan Safian in Malice, in response to being asked "What do you want?"

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

Simple guideline about logs: type 'em like your Mom is gonna be the next one to read them...


 

I would like my mom to get out and geocache, but the one I'd have to worry about is my dad! He's old school! I'd have to go out and get a switch if he found out I had used a potty mouth in a log. icon_biggrin.gif

 

(Team 360, a switch is a lot like those massive thorny obstacles like you saw near the un-original stash)

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quote:
Originally posted by TEAM 360:

Simple guideline about logs: type 'em like your Mom is gonna be the next one to read them...


 

Shrug, my mother doesn't remove the Marlboro from her mouth before she tells the Highway Patrolman to kiss her a..... (seriously she doesn't smoke... but you get the idea).

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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What's contained in a log is the responsiblity of the cache owner at this point. (I'm avoiding the bit about WHOSE responsibility it SHOULD be). If the cache onwer doesn't like it - he/she should encrypt. If you find a log that offends - email the cache owner and ask them to encrypt.

 

Until Groundspeak decides to have active censors on every log (something very impractical... probably impossible under the circumstances) this is how it will have to be handled.

 

The 'ENCRYPT' feature should have a disclaimer that mentions (besides spoilers) possible offensive information.

 

I seriously think people get too worked up over this. There are stereotypes about every group of people. There are things that are offensive to some yet not to others. If you start drawing lines - where do you stop? What if only ONE person in the whole world is offended - does it have to be removed for that one person? What about the other 6 Billion plus?

 

Call me what you want - just don't call me collect :b

 

Luckily, the VAST majority of geocachers are well within the boundaries of what is 'acceptable' (whatever the he11 that means).

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:
Originally posted by GayCruiser:

I'm really sorry for following hammack and causing this whole mess (but he's soooo cute!). I promise not to let it happen again.


 

I'll tell you what offends me - COWARDS, oops... I mean sock puppets.

 

 

southdeltan

 

"Man can counterfeit everything except silence". - William Faulkner

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quote:
Originally posted by Romad_Pilot:

(Team 360, a switch is a lot like those massive thorny obstacles like you saw near the un-original stash)


 

OUCH! Man, I don't know how you guys cache up there without being a bloody mess at the end of the day...at least down here in the desert, you can see 'em coming and walk AROUND them...

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled topic...

Link to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Pantalaimon:

quote:
Originally posted by drat19:

In reply to where you cited me directly: I agree that we ought not to use the "known offensive" terms when others will suffice (case in point: in my log about the disturbing New Orleans cache I went to that I linked elsewhere, I used the term "men's alternative lifestyle", but I also cited the fact the one man who we saw in those woods had his pants in an obviously undone condition...but I danced around what was REALLY going on through creative use of verbiage), but therein lies the very heart of the problem: Corporate America (where I live during the days) as well as politically-correct America (where we are all forced to live) has created this soft "code speak" language, where we can get away with making offensive comments by using inoffensive language. I guess I'm just ranting now (I think I'm channeling George Carlin...those times when he's funny but he's really deadly serious), but I'm just fed up with having to use this language to say the very same things Hammack was trying to say in his uncensored format. Apparently this is what we've come to.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi


 

Well now, I'm confused. Do you "agree that we ought not to use the 'known offensive' terms when others will suffice," or are you "fed up with having to use this [code-speak] language ..." and think that "this is what we've come to." (Seeming to imply that "this" is a bad thing.)

 

Your log seemed appropriately written to me. I wouldn't question it, but someone else might, and I welcome that discussion.

 

At any rate, and OT, we both agree that you shouldn't have had to have the experience you did have on that geocache.

 

Pan


 

You're right, I sort of went both ways with my point. What it boils down to is that I'm frustrated that we can't say what we really want to, in direct (and often-offensive-to-some, too-bad-so-sad) language, but we CAN say the same things in politically-correct "code speak" (and GET AWAY WITH IT unless someone takes the time to parse it), and I'm even more frustrated that I've learned how to "code speak" as well as I have, having spent too much time in Corporate America and having watched enough Senate hearings (hell, we never even USED the term "parse the language" before the late-'90s).

 

Remember, the whole discussion started when you made the point that maybe Hammack shouldn't have used the particular term that he did. Curiously, if he HAD used politically-correct language, we wouldn't even be having this discussion: the thread would still be open, and the vast majority of posters to said thread would have been going "Right on, brother" to him.

 

I'm not baiting an argument with you, Pan...I think we're on the same page, with just a slightly different view of the issue, is all.

 

-Dave R.

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quote:
Originally posted by makaio:

quote:
OUCH! Man, I don't know how you guys cache up there without being a bloody mess at the end of the day...at least down here in the desert, you can see 'em coming and walk AROUND them
They're attracted to black icon_wink.gif


A month ago some yahoo found one of my caches before he died of heat stroke. Wearing black isn't the smartest idea for the desert.

1855047_300.JPG

 

texasgeocaching_sm.gif Took sun from sky, left world in eternal darkness bandbass.gif

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The term political correctness gets used a way too often, and more often than not as a response to a genuine complaint of someone who is truly offended by someone’s language or behaviour, and has the courage to say so. Political Correctness, does not equal politeness, or a genuine aversion to offending. Political correctness is self-serving behaviour where one insincerely governs their language or actions in order to reduce the negative political consequences that may be incurred if one simply spoke their mind, or acted in a manner that they thought was right.

 

Censoring people for not following the rules of political correctness, to me is simply wrong, and really just encourages self-serving insincerity. I prefer to allow people to be able to expose themselves for what they really are. If a person has a truly offensive personality, then I like to be able to assess that for myself, instead of having some form of censorship keep their words from my view. When such offensive people then face the wrath of others who are offended by their language, and they defend themselves by blaming the reaction on political correctness, then I just lose that much more respect for them (if I had any left).

 

The other problem with political correctness is that it often provides positive reinforcement for people to be more sensitive, and easily offended, than what is really reasonable, in a society that preaches tolerance. I believe that many people feign taking offence, and use the fear of not acting politically correct to their own political advantage.

 

I would hope that the contents of logs would be governed by polite, civil behaviour, and a desire to keep Geocaching an enjoyable activity for all persons. Governing our language to achieve those ends, is not acting politically correct, its just plain good manners.

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me. geol4.JPG

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I had always thought that Political Correctness related to the things that were allowable or not allowable by societal peer pressure. This may have nothing to do with how most people think things should be. It also has nothing to do with logic. When something defies logic is when PC is at it's height of absurdity.

 

An example on logic. Put a white guy on stage and have him make fun of blacks. That’s not kosher. Put a black guy on stage and have him make fun of whites. That’s ok. Hell I’m even a fan of Richard Prior but the point remains. The same rule should apply to both but it doesn't. By the way, the ability to tell tell Blonde Jokes to a Blonde is a sign you are not “Blondist”. The same applies across the board.

 

People who say they are not PC are usually rebelling against the BS built into the PC system. PC is often institutional.

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A thought about institutional PC: When I teach my class, I go out of my way to be PC in the terms that I use. So, instead of saying "white" I say caucasion. Instead of "black" I say African-American. Institutionally, if I fail in this and offend someone, my job is less secure. At the same time, if PC was not an issue, I would still likely use the PC terms out of politeness to my students. Of course I would never use a derogatory term. I just simply don't have deragatory feelings, and if I did, then I would deserve any backlash I received!

 

So, with cache logs, if a user choses to be derogatory, well OK that is his or her choice. But he or she should not be shocked if the cache owner deletes the log (I wouldn't delete but would post a note stating my disagreement and would encrypt under certain circumstances). If he or she gets backlash... Well, people are entitled to their opinions, but are not entitled to have people agree with them!

 

Edit: I just noticed this, but I regularly use "he or she" in my writing. That also can be viewed as PC, but I think I tend to do it for correctness (I'm an anal lawyer after all), and again, for politness and awareness that both genders might be reading. Yet, I bet the origin of it in general use was PC. Especially "institutional PC" which I am beginning to think is a pretty cool term! icon_smile.gif

 

pokeanim3.gif

 

[This message was edited by carleenp on September 10, 2003 at 07:00 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:

A thought about institutional PC: When I teach my class, I go out of my way to be PC in the terms that I use. So, instead of saying "white" I say caucasion. Instead of "black" I say African-American. ....

 


 

Both inconsistent AND incorrect. If you are going to say "African-American" then why not "European-American"? It is a moot point, though, because I doubt any of your BLACK kids have been born in Africa or have dual citizenship. icon_rolleyes.gif

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quote:
Both inconsistent AND incorrect. If you are going to say "African-American" then why not "European-American"? It is a moot point, though, because I doubt any of your BLACK kids have been born in Africa or have dual citizenship.

 

You are correct. That shows how far PC, especially institutional PC could go. Basically, your comment illustrates the point that RK was making and which I agree with. Obviously, I am going to be generally PC in the classroom for professional and politeness reasons, but of course the possibilities of how far the instituional PC could go are endless. PC wise, it already is often silly and could get even more so. Politeness wise, I guess it is hard to say, but at some level the people offended would also get increasingly silly in their level of offense (Like with "European-American). At that point, I think my job would not be in any danger.

 

pokeanim3.gif

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Wow, I go away for a day and nothing changes -- I guess it's not only me that gets things heated here.

 

I must say that I tend to agree with RK and Seneca on this one. I myself am a bit miffed at all this politically correct crap -- it's just a bit too silly for me.

 

BTW: I heard on the radio today that cows all over North America are upset about the term "homo milk" and are petitioning to have it renamed "man-milk". Where will it end?

 

*****

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quote:
Wow, I go away for a day and nothing changes -- I guess it's not only me that gets things heated here.

 

I wasn't feeling that things were "heated" in this thread, but I also have a job (not the teaching job that I mention in my posts in this thread) that requires me to constantly deal with arguments. So maybe I have a watered down veiw of whether things are "heated." Anyway, I'm sure you could find a way heat things up more if that suits you. icon_smile.gif

 

pokeanim3.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by ChurchCampDave:

Well, I remember back in the "good old days", we only had African-American & Caucasion TV.

 

Freedom is a two-way street.

 

GDAE, Dave


 

You mean there was a time when there were Caucasian TV shows? I thought it was just a legend. Now our choices are BET1, BET2, BET3....

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quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:

quote:
Both inconsistent AND incorrect. If you are going to say "African-American" then why not "European-American"? It is a moot point, though, because I doubt any of your BLACK kids have been born in Africa or have dual citizenship.

 

You are correct. That shows how far PC, especially institutional PC could go. Basically, your comment illustrates the point that RK was making and which I agree with. Obviously, I am going to be generally PC in the classroom for professional and politeness reasons, but of course the possibilities of how far the instituional PC could go are endless. PC wise, it already is often silly and could get even more so. Politeness wise, I guess it is hard to say, but at some level the people offended would also get increasingly silly in their level of offense (Like with "European-American). At that point, I think my job would not be in any danger.

 

http://outbreakcorp.hypermart.net/animation/pokemon/pokeanim3.gif


 

Actually the due the fact that many countries other than Africa have "black" people African-American is the wrong term. The correct scientific racial terms <which will probably get me kicked off the board> are:

Caucasian, "white" people hehe only after I've been in the tub to long.

Negroid, "black" people.

<the last I'm not as sure on>

Mongoloid. Asian or "yellow" people.

 

osama and the people the mid east are mostly Caucasian, and decidedly not white.

 

Mongoloid includes Eskimos and several others not considered "asian" The terms come from the original Latin names. It's only white north American culture that has given Negroid it's negative connotations and contracted forms. We've all herd them so I wont <and probably can't list them>

 

As Carlin would say there just words, 7 of them .... oh sorry different topic.

 

Pat Patterson

Garmin 12XL

Some have graceland, some have mecca. We have the side of a gravel road in Oregon.... How did we get to be the better off?

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quote:
Originally posted by carleenp:

quote:
I think that *Pocket Queries* desperately need to be renamed.


 

LOL! I should have foreseen a comment like that! icon_smile.gif

 

http://outbreakcorp.hypermart.net/animation/pokemon/pokeanim3.gif


 

I guess to be truly PC they should be PQs?

 

Then we could really watch our Ps and Qs.

 

I recently read The Death of Common Sense. I fear it is true.

___________________________________

All weal drive, the only way to go!

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Originally posted by drat19:

Right on target as usual, RK. Political correctness = "code speak". Why not just call it like you see it?

 

I call it like I see it. If I don't see it, I make it up icon_smile.gif

 

...that was a tagline I used back when I used the Bluewave Offline Mailer back in the BBS dayz.

 

-=Jerry A. Goodson=- W5BFF aka hydrashok407

 

"Real peace is not just the absence of conflict, it's the presence of justice" - http://www.hydrashok.com

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

The term _political correctness_ gets used a way too often, and more often than not as a response to a genuine complaint of someone who is truly offended by someone’s language or behaviour, and has the courage to say so. _Political Correctness_, does not equal politeness, or a genuine aversion to offending. _Political correctness_ is self-serving behaviour where one insincerely governs their language or actions in order to reduce the negative political consequences that may be incurred if one simply spoke their mind, or acted in a manner that they thought was right.

 

Censoring people for not following the rules of _political correctness_, to me is simply wrong, and really just encourages self-serving insincerity. I prefer to allow people to be able to expose themselves for what they really are. If a person has a truly offensive personality, then I like to be able to assess that for myself, instead of having some form of censorship keep their words from my view. When such offensive people then face the wrath of others who are offended by their language, and they defend themselves by blaming the reaction on _political correctness_, then I just lose that much more respect for them (if I had any left).

 

The other problem with _political correctness_ is that it often provides positive reinforcement for people to be more sensitive, and easily offended, than what is really reasonable, in a society that preaches tolerance. I believe that many people feign taking offence, and use the fear of not acting politically correct to their own political advantage.

 

I would hope that the contents of logs would be governed by polite, civil behaviour, and a desire to keep Geocaching an enjoyable activity for all persons. Governing our language to achieve those ends, is not acting _politically correct_, its just plain good manners.

 


 

Post of the day.

 

--------------------

This space for rent! Ask about our easy layaway plan!

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Seneca, beautifully said, you put words to my feelings.

 

When political correctness came around, I figured the pendulum would rapidly swing the other way and the fad would go away, it started to, but then hung on...

 

Considering it's just a matter of time until the 'movement' decides the latest word is derogatory, we'll probably see a replacement for 'african-american' sometime soon! (I wonder what it's replacement will be... Ironically, 'gay' is back ever since the short version of 'homosexual' became bad...

 

C'est la vie,

 

Randy

 

PS: Different personality types interpret this differently, 'Sensors' feel words are just words, 'iNtuitors' believe they have significance.

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