Waterproof?

September 6, 2003

I've got a Magellan Sporttrak Map that has served me well this year. A few weeks ago, I set out with a buddy on a mountain biking/geocaching adventure. I had it strapped to the outside on my Camelback. We rode around for awhile, and our poor weather eye got us stranded in a thunderstorm. We hid out in a cave for a while, but not before we got throughly soaked. After the storm passed, I turned on the GPS. Nothing. It did it's usual beeping like it was turning on and responding to button pushes, but the screen was blank. So we finished our ride without the geocaching. I get home, and cycle the batteries. Nothing. So I let it dry out for a few days. Nothing. Now just the other day, I sit down with it in preparation for looking into the warranty. Now it works fine. About 4 weeks after the initial problem. Whats the story? I'm thrilled that it works now, saving me the hassle and expense of getting it repaired/replaced, but I'm curious as to why it took so long. Any thoughts?

5k · September 6, 2003

I guess it just dried out.

If I were you, I'd still consider calling Magellan and explaining the problem to them... you might suggest that you'd like a replacement, since yours clearly isn't waterproof like it should be.

I've had my Meridian in a couple very hard rainstorms while on my bike, and I've had no problems.

Jamie

9.2k · September 6, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Jamie Z:
I guess it just dried out.

If I were you, I'd still consider calling Magellan and explaining the problem to them... you might suggest that you'd like a replacement, since yours clearly isn't waterproof like it should be.

I've had my Meridian in a couple very hard rainstorms while on my bike, and I've had no problems.

You're not the first to make this complaint about the Magellan. They seem to have some quality control problems in this area.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

September 8, 2003

For mere pennies you can prevent this from happening next time.. Ziploc bag, that's all it takes!

Bzz

9.5k · September 8, 2003

For the bucks you pay for the advertised water proofing, you dadgum well shouldn't have to worry about stashing the GPSr into a baggie. I agree with PS that this is a quality control issue. Fortunately, my MeriPlat is still holding up in spite of my carelessness.

Now I can see a need for something like that to help the Garmin GPSr float...

Cheers!

TL

September 8, 2003

The water, once it got into the closed case, may leave subtle corrosion that will develop in time and shut the electronics down - now forever. There are two ways to deal with it - disassemble the unit, wash the circuits with alcohol and REALLY dry it, or replace the thing if under warranty. Washing the circuits requires some skill and luck, so don't do it unless you have both. Sometimes placing the unit on a sunny spot for a day (open, batteries out, screen down) may dry it well enough - if done within a day or two of wetting it.

Just wanted to add that it is really naive to expect water-proof from GPS. Just look at it with your engineering eye open, and you will see. The seals , even if tight initially, will wear out within days, etc. The manufacturer's intent was not to make it waterproof for you, but to pass the test. So, use the plastic bag if you want results :-)

http://www.quakemap.com - redefining Easy...

September 9, 2003

I’d like to see a manufacturer claim that their consumer grade GPS receiver is proof against thunderstorm drenching, dunking, or any other such environmental insults. As with all retail advertising, consumers read into it what they would like to believe, not what it says.

I’m going to cut this short because I have to draft a complaint letter to Budweiser. Their beer didn’t get me laid by a sexy blond twenty-year-old on a beach at sunset last summer.

September 9, 2003

According to my documentation, my Garmin V can be submerged to one meter for 30 minutes....

That seems like a pretty good claim to me....

DZ

quote:
Originally posted by blindleader:
I’d like to see a manufacturer claim that their consumer grade GPS receiver is proof against thunderstorm drenching, dunking, or any other such environmental insults. As with all retail advertising, consumers read into it what they would like to believe, not what it says.

I’m going to cut this short because I have to draft a complaint letter to Budweiser. Their beer didn’t get me laid by a sexy blond twenty-year-old on a beach at sunset last summer.

September 9, 2003

look along the side of the sportrak and see if there are stress cracks where the screws go into the body. if yes, magellan will replace the unit. give thales navigation -- magellan -- a call. i recvd a new unit in 3 days.

--- robbie

waterproof = if you spit at it from 25 feet, it will still work.

A family that Geocaches together... eventually gets wet.

required reading

My first bible

Great Orienteering Site!

PERSONAL PROTECTIVE MEASURES AGAINST INSECTS AND OTHER ARTHROPODS OF MILITARY SIGNIFICANCE

9.2k · September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:

Now I can see a need for something like that to help the Garmin GPSr float...

The Garmin case for the eTrex line gives it enough buoyancy for it to float.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

9.5k · September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by blindleader:
I’d like to see a manufacturer claim that their consumer grade GPS receiver is proof against thunderstorm drenching, dunking, or any other such environmental insults. As with all retail advertising, consumers read into it what they would like to believe, not what it says.

I’m going to cut this short because I have to draft a complaint letter to Budweiser. Their beer didn’t get me laid by a sexy blond twenty-year-old on a beach at sunset last summer.

My MeriPlat took a dunking with me in a fast moving glacial river and survived it with nary a leak. I have seen pictures of these GPS receivers in the water AND functioning by people that decided to risk it and test the claims. The SportTrak was designed with the same specs in design. However, they did not account for the torque some of the assembly lines were producing when putting the units together to keep up with the demand.

Cheers!

TL

9.5k · September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by quakemap.com:
The water, once it got into the closed case, may leave subtle corrosion that will develop in time and shut the electronics down - now forever. There are two ways to deal with it - disassemble the unit, wash the circuits with alcohol and REALLY dry it, or replace the thing if under warranty. Washing the circuits requires some skill and luck, so don't do it unless you have both. Sometimes placing the unit on a sunny spot for a day (open, batteries out, screen down) may dry it well enough - if done within a day or two of wetting it.

Just wanted to add that it is really naive to expect water-proof from GPS. Just look at it with your engineering eye open, and you will see. The seals , even if tight initially, will wear out within days, etc. The manufacturer's intent was not to make it waterproof for you, but to pass the test. So, use the plastic bag if you want results :-)

http://www.quakemap.com - redefining Easy...

Granted, everything eventually wears out. Even a boat will begin to leak after a time. However, if the gasket is properly maintained, there should be no issues. I saw a recommendation some time back that using a petroleum jelly or a gasket refresher does the trick nicely. And there is nothing that says you can't or shouldn't replace the gasket to maintain the integrity the GPSr was spec'd for.

Cheers!

TL

9.5k · September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Prime Suspect:

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:

Now I can see a need for something like that to help the Garmin GPSr float...

The Garmin case for the eTrex line gives it enough buoyancy for it to float.

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/3608_2800.gif

_"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."_

My mistake. I thought I read a complaint where the person's Garmin sank.

Cheers!

TL

September 9, 2003

quote:
According to my documentation, my Garmin V can be submerged to one meter for 30 minutes..
That seems like a pretty good claim to me....

Even though you quoted my message you seem to not have taken to heart the warning, so I'll repeat: "As with all retail advertising, consumers read into it what they would like to believe, not what it says."

What the Garmin V manual says is that the unit can "withstand immersion... blah blah..." not that it can operate. In fact, it goes on to say to field strip it and dry it out before attempting to use it again. Remember that this thread concerns someone who tried to operate a wet receiver. Since both Garmin and Magellan use the same standard for "waterproofness", the above goes for the Sporttrak Map as well.

quote:
My MeriPlat took a dunking with me in a fast moving glacial river and survived it with nary a leak. I have seen pictures of these GPS receivers in the water AND functioning...

Logically, when someone changes the subject in response to an argument, it means "I'm wrong, but refuse to admit it." The subject isn't what people have done or had happen to them, it's what can the customer expect from their "waterproof" GPSR. You've seen units operating under water. So what? I'll bet nobody was handling the unit let alone pushing any buttons. And even if they were, again, So what? I've seen a car spin through the air at sixty mph, rotating at least two full turns (720 degrees) before landing in the median strip, after which the driver got out and and threw a fit. That doesn't mean that I would expect the same results for myself.

The bottom line is that neither the Magellan nor the Garmin documentation claims that the unit will stand up to what sky-cache describes in the original post. Likewise, nowhere did I ever say that a consumer GPSR can't stand up to similar treatment (Just in case that's the straw-man argument you're attributing to me). I stand by my original post, and won't be returning to this thread. I suggest a course in reading comprehension for anyone who's still inclined to argue.

BTW. I'm still waiting for Anheuser-Busch’s response about the beer claims.

September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by dzavetsky:
According to my documentation, my Garmin V can be submerged to one meter for 30 minutes....

That seems like a pretty good claim to me....

Yes but that is just for the electronics not the battery case. Garmin says to dry out battery case before using.

I try to stay out of major rain storms but when I can't I try to keep all my electronics as dry as I'd like to be.

9.5k · September 9, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by blindleader:
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My MeriPlat took a dunking with me in a fast moving glacial river and survived it with nary a leak. I have seen pictures of these GPS receivers in the water AND functioning...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Logically, when someone changes the subject in response to an argument, it means "I'm wrong, but refuse to admit it." The subject isn't what people have done or had happen to them, it's what can the customer expect from their "waterproof" GPSR. You've seen units operating under water. So what? I'll bet nobody was handling the unit let alone pushing any buttons. And even if they were, again, So what? I've seen a car spin through the air at sixty mph, rotating at least two full turns (720 degrees) before landing in the median strip, after which the driver got out and and threw a fit. That doesn't mean that I would expect the same results for myself.

The bottom line is that neither the Magellan nor the Garmin documentation claims that the unit will stand up to what sky-cache describes in the original post. Likewise, nowhere did I ever say that a consumer GPSR can't stand up to similar treatment (Just in case that's the straw-man argument you're attributing to me). I stand by my original post, and won't be returning to this thread. I suggest a course in reading comprehension for anyone who's still inclined to argue.

Sensitive aren't you?

First, my statement was merely a proof of concept of the waterproofness in the face of your sarcastic and resultant caustic remarks.

Second, I didn't start the strawman arguement... you did based on implied advertisements with a beer commercial used as an example which was way off topic (as long as you're going to chew people out for the same), and your example of a car spinning was also OT as well as comparing apples to oranges.

I easily comprehended your sarcasm based on commercialism and the advertising behind it. You say you won't return. Good. You must realize just how out of line your responses have been in relationship to the topic.

Now to the subject at hand... Sky-cache's GPSr should have maintained waterproof integrity, as mine did in the river as well as severe storms as proven by other owners of the Magellan units. My point being the IEC-529 IPX7 standard states the unit can withstand being immersed in water for 30 minutes at 1 meter depth without leaking. That indicates that a simple storm should not have caused the problem it did unless there was a physical defect and appropriate maintenance was not in place.

Cheers!

TL

September 10, 2003

<grin>

"What the Garmin V manual _says_ is that the unit can "withstand immersion... blah blah..." not that it can operate. In fact, it goes on to say to field strip it and dry it out before attempting to use it again. Remember that this thread concerns someone who tried to operate a _wet_ receiver. Since both Garmin and Magellan use the same standard for "waterproofness", the above goes for the Sporttrak Map as well."

The field stripping seems to be more of a precaution tahn anything.....water + electronic gear does not mix.....PERIOD.

Just like a 4x4 truck -- The manual for my Explorer says that it can ford streams up to 2 feet, etc...it ALSO goes on to say that certain extra maintenance (like repacking the front hubs) is needed AFTER fording said streams. Does that mean that the manufacturer is lying about what it can do?

I think it all depends on how folks interpret certain things....we all read into things what we want sometimes.

September 10, 2003

Originally posted by TotemLake:
That indicates that a simple storm should not have caused the problem it did unless there was a physical defect and appropriate maintenance was not in place."

I agree....I had my V with me a few days back and was caught in a TORRNTIAL downpour for about 25 minutes straight...I was waterlogged....kept on keeping on though.....

The V performed flawlessly. No water in the battery compartment either, wehn I checked (per the manual).

Come on folks, its a piece of electronics. Take the approriate precautions and do not rely on the waterproof thing all the time....

If you are on a boat, tether the GPS or put it in a floatable case JUST IN CASE. If you are backpacking and you get deluged, do you best to protect it. Hopefully, some preaution and common sense will help the waterproofness level your GPS may or may not have suffice for the occasion....

Geez...SUCH a serious discussion over something so silly.....we already own our GPSs...what will come of arguing over "how wateproof is it?"

DZ

DZ

9.5k · September 10, 2003

It sounds like the V's battery and electronics are in two different compartments.

I can't speak for the SportTrak, but the Meridian series battery compartment opens up to the electronics so the battery lid becomes the weak point in the integrity. If it is wet there, you can bet it is wet in electroncs as well. The compartment lid is sealed by two slides, and it is quite easy to slide them and not catch the latches. The manual does not recommend field stripping the unit to dry if it became submerged. Is that confidence or inexperience in the face of Garmin's recommendation? Who really knows?

(OF course, now I'm going to have to go back and re-read the danged thing just to be sure I didn't miss anything. )

Cheers!

TL

9.2k · September 10, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TotemLake:

My mistake. I thought I read a complaint where the person's Garmin sank.

I was referring to this case.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

9.5k · September 10, 2003

Thanks for the clarification PS. That's a nice looking case.

Cheers!

TL

September 10, 2003

I experienced a similar "failure". I thought the unit had failed but what had transpired was that the contrast or bright had mysteriously been changed so that the screen looked blank. When I got home I tried changing the batteries. As I sat down to give it one last look before sending it back to Garmin, I decided I could see a faint image. I changed the settings for the brightness and contrast and the display was fine.

9.2k · September 11, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Katetrex:
I experienced a similar "failure". I thought the unit had failed but what had transpired was that the contrast or bright had mysteriously been changed so that the screen looked blank. When I got home I tried changing the batteries. As I sat down to give it one last look before sending it back to Garmin, I decided I could see a faint image. I changed the settings for the brightness and contrast and the display was fine.

Could be a temperature sensor thing. All GPSs have internal temperature sensors (to adjust for oscillation changes). Since high temperatures tend to cause LCD screens to darken, a few yeas ago Garmin started to use the temperature sensor to also automatically adjust the screen contrast.

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

September 19, 2003

Dump the Magellan. Get the dealer to refund your money, and then go buy a Lowrance Globalmap 100 like I have. Magellan has had problems since day 1 with GPS. Your GPS should be good in any weather condition, and there is no excuse for what happened with your GPS.

2.6k · September 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by LowranceTracker1:
Dump the Magellan. Get the dealer to refund your money, and then go buy a Lowrance Globalmap 100 like I have. Magellan has had problems since day 1 with GPS. Your GPS should be good in any weather condition, and there is no excuse for what happened with your GPS.

Exactly how is a GM100 better?

Mine has no battery door gasket. Water could poor right into the core of the POS.

No GPSr is 100% waterproof. This could have happened to any GPSr. All the newer models and brands have the same waterproofing standard.

I wouldn't recommend the clunky old Global Map 100 to anyone.

POWDER!!!!!!

September 20, 2003

Lol, the GM100 scares me....

9.2k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cybo:
Lol, the GM100 scares me....

I know exactly what you mean...

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

September 21, 2003

I have had my gm100 get soaked in my boat and all I did was change the batteries and let it dry in the sun for awhile and it still works fine today.

But I now use a waterproof bag just to be on the safe side.

I like the picture you made.

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage

2.6k · September 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by gm100guy:
I have had my gm100 get soaked in my boat and all I did was change the batteries and let it dry in the sun for awhile and it still works fine today.

This isn't a flame. I just want to clarify your position.

You are recommending that someone give up their Magellan for a Global Map 100 because of one isolated incident that may have been only freaky luck?

I looked at the new iFinder from Lowrance. It should be waterproof to some degree. However the case appeared to be poorly sealed(clicked together). I opened the battery door and it was like my GM100. No gasket of any kind. You can see the circuit board too.

I would have to say that Skye-cache experienced freaky bad luck. I would guess a waterproof standard is no guarantee.

POWDER!!!!!!

September 21, 2003

I was not making any recommendations.

I was was just relating what happen to my gps and when I bought my gm100 here in Canada afew years ago there were not alot of gps's out on the market like today.

The gm100 has served me well and when it dies I will look at all brands to to replace it.

If you go back and read it was Lowrancetracker1 not me saying to buy the gm100.

gm100guy

http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm

Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage

2.6k · September 21, 2003

Your right. I was combining your post with Trackers.

Sorry.

POWDER!!!!!!

September 21, 2003

I don't see anything in my Garmin GPS V manual regarding field stripping.

9.2k · September 22, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by ChiefPig:
I don't see anything in my Garmin GPS V manual regarding field stripping.

No surprise there. Don't put too much stock in anything in that post.

When your GPS unit gets wet, Garmin recommends turning it off, removing the batteries, and letting the battery compartment dry out. I don't know in what world that would be considered "field stripping".

"Don't mess with a geocacher. We know all the best places to hide a body."

September 22, 2003

I have had my sport trak map under water three times now. It works fine, didn't even lose signal. The only thing I field stripped was me.

Bender

Searching, for the lost Xanadu

September 24, 2003

According to the Garmin tech rep the Waterproof to IEC 529 IPX7 standards is for still water. No current no movement, I use my RINO 120 in my kayak all the time but I invested in a Voyeur gps waterproof bag with a clear face. I works great in this bag. Small investment to save $200+ unit.

JT Central FL

9.5k · September 25, 2003

Not sure I agree with the Garmin Tech. This is what I got from gpsinformation.net:

(Please note; at the time this page was written, Magellan wasn't quoting an IPX7 standard. This should also get past some folks complaints about what the actual advertisement is stating. You might also want to note this IPX7 standard made no discernation with flowing and stagnant waters.)

quote:
MIL-STD 810 Immersion Standard, Military Specification equipment

MIL-STD 810 Blowing Rain, Military Specification equipment

JIS 2-8 Japanese Water Protection Specs similar to IEC529

CFR Title 46 Part 110.15 Aircraft Civilian specifications

IEC 529 European (ECC) water protection specifications

Of these, only IEC 529 (European Community Specification) and JIS2-8 (Japanese Industry Standard) have graduated test levels. These two specifications are very similar, but IEC 529 is gaining more acceptance in Europe which is a major market for many US manufacturers and is more defined in terms of the actual test. The table below gives a summary of the requirements for IEC 529 for WATER PROTECTION PROVISIONS.

Test Level Definition

0 Non protected, No special protection

1 Protected against falling water Equivalent to 3-5mm rainfall per minute for a duration of 10 minutes. Unit is placed in its normal operating position.

2 Protected against falling water when tilted up to 15 degrees. Same as (1) above but unit is tested in 4 fixed positions - tilted 15 degree in each direction from normal operating position.

3 Protected against spraying water, Water spraying up to 60 degrees from vertical at 10 liters/min at a gage pressure of 80-100kN/m2 for 5 min.

4 Protected against splashing water. Same as level 3 but water is sprayed at all angles.

5 Protected against water jets. Water projected at all angles through a 6.3mm nozzle at a flow rate of 12.5 liters/min at a gage pressure of 30kN/m2 for 3 minutes from a distance of 3 meters.

6 Protected against heavy seas. Water projected at all angles through a 12.5mm nozzle at a flow rate of 100 liters/min at a gage pressure of 100kN/m2 for 3 minutes from a distance of 3 meters.

7 Protected against water immersion. Immersion for 30 minutes at a depth of 1 meter.

8 Protected against water submersion The equipment is suitable for continuos submersion in water under conditions which are identified by the manufacturer.

*Note: IEC 529 level 7 is designated "IPX7" and is equivalent to JIS 7. The position of "X" being left blank indicates that the unit has no special mechanical protection.

*Note: Garmin typically uses the IEC-529 spec for the design spec for water protection level for their line of GPS equipment. Marine rated GPS equipment is usually tested to IPX7.

Lowrance uses different methodology which are non standard but is roughly equivalent to IPX7 but at 2ft depth for 1 hour . Magellan's immersion standards are not known to us at this time.

Cheers!

TL

2.3k · September 25, 2003

The Garmin tech representative is correct. IPX7 (or IP67, as it's frequently specified as for industrial use) is tested by very carefully lowering the DUT to the specified depth. Virtually no dynamic water pressure is allowed to influence the test. When the stipulated time has passed, the DUT is removed from the water equally carefully.

Units specified according to IP68, however, usually take any normal immersion conditons, at least at depths that comes into question for bathing. Such a rating is frequently found on totally enclosed industrial sensors.

(DUT = Device Under Test)

Anders

9.5k · September 27, 2003

It is apparent (and we can probably agree) the IPX7 standard is loosely applied in some situations and tightly applied in others.

By the intent of this statement located in several documents that I looked up:

quote:
Of these, only IEC 529 (European Community Specification) and JIS2-8 (Japanese Industry Standard) have graduated test levels.

As the graduated levels are from none to severe, the intent of immersion is supposed to be real world usage; not mere gentle dipping.

The common description I found for IPX7 definition is:

quote:
If the object is dipped into water (0.15-1m)
under the defined conditions of pressure

and time, water must not enter it in any

harmful quantity.

With that:

* Garmin, by your statement, gently dips and escapes with the barest requirement.

* Icom Inc., by their statement can drop it into the water with little fear of leakage: http://www.sicom.ru/files/MarineGen-Eur_2003.pdf

* Magellan not only boasts of IPX7 compliance, but their design allows for it to float, partly due to the captured air as well as displacement of water to weight ratio.

* I read a web page yesterday that also specifically boasted the compliance to the IPX7 standard was the reason their Marine GPS receiver can withstand heavy seas. As soon as I relocate that claim, I'll post it.

So it really still comes down to caveat emptor. Real world anecdotes can only help the buyer decide which manufacture adheres more strictly to the intent of the IPX7 and which one doesn't.

My real world anecdote is Magellan firmly stands behind their claim. Mine survived a very dynamic fast flowing and very cold river dunking whereas the digital camera took 2 weeks to dry out. YMMV but I was quite pleased and satisfied I didn't have too much to worry about so long as I ensure the gasket stays fresh and pliable. Being that I'm coming into a season I have to worry about it, I think I'll order the replacement.

Cheers!

TL

9.5k · September 27, 2003

Btw, for clarity, the X in IPX7 has its own classifications related to dust and particles. So, for IP67, the definition is as follows:

quote:
6X*. Total protection of persons from touching voltage-carrying or internal moving parts. Protection of the object from access of dust.

X7*. If the object is dipped into water (0.15-1m) under the defined conditions of pressure and time, water must not enter it in any harmful quantity.

Reference:

http://www.okw.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/Protect.pdf

* X Helps to define the position of the number in IPXX.

Cheers!

TL

Waterproof?

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