Topo Software

[basher_boy]

Anybody want to talk about topo softwarefor PCs? I am using National Geographic's Topo. It cost a C-note for NJ, CT, RI, VT, NY, NH, MA, and ME. I am really impressed with it. The maps are good enough to navigate from with a compass. (I don't have a GPSr yet, but will helpfully have one soon). On the site (www.topo.com) you can download current trail maps for many parks and other POI. I am moving to PA soon and will be Geocaching alot in MD. I will have to buy another two-hundred dollars of maps from Topo. I recently tried Delorme's Topo USA, but the maps were so undetailed that I couldn't hope to use them for compass navigation. Delorme Topo USA fits the whole USA on two fewer CDs than it takes NG Topo for the above mentioned states. Maptech that look pretty good, but would be interested in what other programs people might like and why.

[+Hawk-eye]

You've covered the main ones ... but there are more and more on line ones you might look at ... you might try doing a search for topo and/or maps ... on Groundspeak ... there have been several strings in the past months discussing this very topic ... might provide you with some thoughts on the subject.

 

Good luck.

 

[basher_boy]

I don't know why I didn't think to use the search function on the forum. I have done it now, and it am finding lots of information.

 

I still wonder what the best value is. I have also used several of the suggested programs, only to find out when I plot a known point each program seems to plot the point in a different location on the map. Sometimes this is rectified by using a different co-ord system (NAD-24 or WGS-84) sometimes not. Any good way to make sure the co-ord you are plotting is actually where it should be?

[basher_boy]

I don't know why I didn't think to use the search function on the forum. I have done it now, and it am finding lots of information.

 

I still wonder what the best value is. I have also used several of the suggested programs, only to find out when I plot a known point each program seems to plot the point in a different location on the map. Sometimes this is rectified by using a different co-ord system (NAD-24 or WGS-84) sometimes not. Any good way to make sure the co-ord you are plotting is actually where it should be?

[+Hawk-eye]

quote:

---

Originally posted by basher_boy:

.... I still wonder what the best value is. I have also used several of the suggested programs, only to find out when I plot a known point each program seems to plot the point in a different location on the map. Sometimes this is rectified by using a different co-ord system (NAD-24 or WGS-84) sometimes not. Any good way to make sure the co-ord you are plotting is actually where it should be?

---

 

That's true ... you do need to make sure that the coordinate that you are putting into the map program ... say Maptech ... was generated using the same datum the map program is set to. Maptech for example will allow you to set the datum and make it the default so you don't have to check it each time.

 

Best value ... probably the Del. Topo series ... but the best mapping program for me personally is the Maptech software ... granted that could be because I've used it for a few years now ... but other than the cost ... I like it a lot. I use it all the time for cache trip planning ... and backpacking. I use Mapsource topo ... only to load into my Vista for reference ... all the serious topo work I would do is on Maptech.

 

[+Alan2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by basher_boy:

... I have also used several of the suggested programs, only to find out when I plot a known point each program seems to plot the point in a different location on the map. Sometimes this is rectified by using a different co-ord system (NAD-24 or WGS-84) sometimes not. Any good way to make sure the co-ord you are plotting is actually where it should be?

---

 

No because every mapmaker draws his maps differently. For example, compare typical two different state road maps for your state. The road locations are close enough so you can drive but they really don't line up one on top of the other. Another example, if I mark a waypoint on an intersection on Garmin's Mapsource Topo and then switch to their Streets and Recreation, the waypoint is 80-200 feet away from the Streets intersection. Which is closer to actual? (Probably the topo!) That's because the maps are drawn differently. The streets do not line up in the same line between maps. The intersections are at different coordinates.

 

I also noticed that conversion to NAD 27 from WGS84 differs from mfr to mfr. They use different calculations and standards and algoritms. Go figure?

 

The thing to remember however is that if you plug in the WGS 84 coordinates in following someone elses WGS 84 coordinates, you will get to the same point because the GPSR processes the info based on the satellites, not on where the waypoint is shown on a map. The GPSR doesn't actually care where the waypoint is shown on the map. If the latter was the case, we'd never find each others caches.

 

Alan

[+Alan2]

quote:

---

Originally posted by basher_boy:

... I have also used several of the suggested programs, only to find out when I plot a known point each program seems to plot the point in a different location on the map. Sometimes this is rectified by using a different co-ord system (NAD-24 or WGS-84) sometimes not. Any good way to make sure the co-ord you are plotting is actually where it should be?

---

 

No because every mapmaker draws his maps differently. For example, compare typical two different state road maps for your state. The road locations are close enough so you can drive but they really don't line up one on top of the other. Another example, if I mark a waypoint on an intersection on Garmin's Mapsource Topo and then switch to their Streets and Recreation, the waypoint is 80-200 feet away from the Streets intersection. Which is closer to actual? (Probably the topo!) That's because the maps are drawn differently. The streets do not line up in the same line between maps. The intersections are at different coordinates.

 

I also noticed that conversion to NAD 27 from WGS84 differs from mfr to mfr. They use different calculations and standards and algoritms. Go figure?

 

The thing to remember however is that if you plug in the WGS 84 coordinates in following someone elses WGS 84 coordinates, you will get to the same point because the GPSR processes the info based on the satellites, not on where the waypoint is shown on a map. The GPSR doesn't actually care where the waypoint is shown on the map. If the latter was the case, we'd never find each others caches.

 

Alan

[+infosponge]

I just started playing with Manifold (from Manifold.net, $245). It seems frightfully complex at first, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. A really professional GIS program. It doesn't talk directly to your GPS, so you need to use a waypoint manager like ExpertGPS and poissible a translator like GeoBuddy depending on your choice of waypoint software. But...oh...the map possibilities...

You can download the TIGER/LINE, USGS DEM, all sorts of data from the internet or CD-ROM and this thing seems to be able to integrate it all into customized maps, link to databases, ... I know it will be at least a year before I get through all the features.

I'm using it right now to generate a custom map showing the worldide finds of my "A Product of Parts" virtual cache.

[+infosponge]

I just started playing with Manifold (from Manifold.net, $245). It seems frightfully complex at first, but I'm starting to get the hang of it. A really professional GIS program. It doesn't talk directly to your GPS, so you need to use a waypoint manager like ExpertGPS and poissible a translator like GeoBuddy depending on your choice of waypoint software. But...oh...the map possibilities...

You can download the TIGER/LINE, USGS DEM, all sorts of data from the internet or CD-ROM and this thing seems to be able to integrate it all into customized maps, link to databases, ... I know it will be at least a year before I get through all the features.

I'm using it right now to generate a custom map showing the worldide finds of my "A Product of Parts" virtual cache.

[+Waterboy]

If you are moving to Pennsylvania please be aware of the maps that are made available free for this state. (Or should I call it the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?) It seems that we have more available than our neighboring states.

 

First, we have about 90% of the State Game Land (SGL) maps available in PDF format. See SGL. While the scale is not great, they appear to be better on trail and parking areas than any of the better defined detailed topos I have seen. This is from experience hiking them.

 

The State Forests are available at State Forests. These, unfortunately, even have a courser scale than the SGL maps. They are in GIF format and often electronic scotch taping together is required.

 

The final good source is from Pennsylvania Spatial Data Access (PASDA) from the Penn State University (PSU) computers at PASDA. There are a fantastic number of quality maps, but like everything it has its faults. This often requires special Global Information System (GIS) software.

 

Please enjoy your map search and WELCOME TO PENNSYLVANIA.

[basher_boy]

Currently I don't use a GPS to find caches, so it is important to me to map the location of the cache on a topo accurately. Depending on the location I often find my orienteering good enough to get me within 10-60 yards of a cache (when it is plotted correctly on the topo map). Most of the time the description is enough to help me find the cache. I don't have anything against GPSrs, but I have yet to decide on one that will fit my needs technically, and financially.

 

I have taken a look at manifold for my purposes, and without getting my hands on it yet, it looks really complex, and pretty expensive. I can't see ever needing to use 90% of the features in it. I also tried the NSGS viewer, but it is just that, and won't let me plot a position. Any suggestions on a more basic GIS program?

 

I grabbed a topo from the above-mentioned site, and it was a zipped file that included a .tiff, as well as two other files with the extensions .tfw and .ftd. Can anyone tell me what these are and how to make use of them?

[+Waterboy]

On files with the extensions .tfw and .ftd. The .tfw files are used by ESRI GIS software such as ArcView or ArcGIS. They contain six numbers in ASCII format. These are:

1. The dimension of a pixel in map units in the x direction (the x-scale).

2. Rotation term for row.

3. Rotation term for column.

4. The dimension of a pixel in map units in the y direction (the y-scale).

5. The x coordinate of the center of the upper-left pixel in map units.

6. The y coordinate of the center of the upper-left pixel in map units.

 

For most data downloaded from PASDA:

A. Items 2 and 3 are zero

B. Item 4 is the negative of item 1 and both are expressed in meters.

C. The x and y coordinates are the UTM coordinates in meters. Please be careful you do not jump from one UTM zone to another. Jump occurs at W078º00.00’.

 

I do not know about the .ftd extension. Possibly it is similar to the .tfw but for MapInfo GIS software.

 

[This message was edited by Waterboy on April 18, 2002 at 10:27 AM.]