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Buying Mapsource Software...Argh!


ejmct

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I have been looking to obtain the Metroguide software for my Garmin Vista.

I know the list price is an outrageous $115.

I have found it on the web (www.gps4fun.com among others) for an only slightly less outrageous $90.

 

I figured the was the perfect thing to find on eBay. And I was right, sort of. There's plenty of copies out there but they inevitably get bid up quite high. For example, the copy I bid on today finally sold for $84, a mere $6 cheaper than a brand new copy with manuals could easily be purchased for with far less risk.

A quick check of eBay history will show that this is fairly typical.

 

All I can figure is this: People buy the software either from a store or eBay, they copy it and then resell it on eBay. Is this some kind of unwritten rule?

 

This would certainly explain why people would pay top dollar even on eBay - they just plan on reselling it later and get the software at little or no cost.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Thanks.

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Ya, you're right, the retail price of Metroguide is outrageous, even at the lowest retailers.

 

I got mine on ebay at less than retail (MUCH less after following a lot of auctions) but I only got the CD's - no documentation. So again, you're probably right, the seller might have copied them and resold, but who knows? Selling used software is not illegal, but using the copies is - so as the buyer, you don't have any liability when purchasing the originals.

 

The last word is,, once you get Metroguide, you will probably not be that impressed with what it does - I sure wasn't. It's just not that great of a program. It has very shallow features, maps have a lot of errors, and, how can I put this,,, no "wow" factor. To me, it should be a $49.99 program - at most.

 

So don't pay retail, be patient on ebay and try to pay as little as possible. That's what I did.

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As you are asking for thoughts, I don't see where the price is so bad. It is not a mass produced product so the cost is going to be high. I'm used to paying several hundred dollars for software in my line of work that while not real sofisticated, does the job. It isn't sold at CompUSA to the masses. Further, pirating the software will only delay any possible price reduction or product developement. Personally, I want Garmin to make a lot of money so that they can develop even better and faster units and software.

 

Steve Bukosky N9BGH

Waukesha Wisconsin

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If you look at the level of detail of the maps, and then look at what you'd have to get to buy paper maps of that detail, it's a terrible deal.

 

To get maps of this detail for NYC and Long Island, I'd be paying about $45. That's for (part of) one metro area. I'm very happy to have paid so little for so much. (In the week we've had City Select, we've already used DC area maps, Baltimore on Tuesday, and Chicagoland in about a month....)

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To those that said Metroguide is fairly priced, I'll say this:

At $115 list, I'm going to buy it on eBay as cheaply as I can as did Point2Point and lots of other folks based on the number of auctions on eBay.

Obviously Garmin figured this would happen and bumped up the price of the software accordingly.

The problem with that is this:

All these people buying used software (legit or copies) means that GARMING GETS NO MONEY from the sale.

If these programs were more like $50, I know I wouldn't be screwing around on eBay trying to nickel and dime the price. I'm sure others feel the same way. I would just buy it and Garmin would make some money in the process.

So by keeping the price so high they are slitting their own throats.

And I won't feel particularly bad that Garmin won't make any money off my Metroguide purchase simply because:

1) Its too darn expensive compared to other equal or often better mapping software packages and

2) Garmin has decided on a propriatary software system so we have no choice but to buy their product whether its good or bad.

I don't know about you, but I like to have the freedom to pick the best product.

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Piracy is piracy. I could use the same argument about a Mercedes and say it's over priced therefore I'm going to buy it at a lower price from a guy who stole it from someone else than from the dealer. Or maybe you can justify copying music CD's on the basis that Michael Jackson is rich enough after all it probably only cost fifty cents to make a CD. Why should you spend ten bucks?

 

Nobody twisted your arm to buy Garmin. Buy Magelan or another GPS. Oh? They charge the same for mapping software? Hmmm. Well then maybe Garmin's pricing is fair. Certainly it's competitive which is what is fair. Competition defines price not your judgement as to what's fair. And you can't compare their software to someone else which cannot get loaded into the GPS. That's comparing apples and oranges. Besides the smaller quantity being sold, Garmin and Magellann and others have to deal with design interfacing with the hardware, dealing with warranty issues and service complaints, etc. That adds to their cost overhead?

 

But the bottom line is stealing is stealing. All the arguments justifying otherwise are not going to protect your soul.

 

Alan

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Alan, I was not trying to justify purchasing an illegal copy.

 

I was simply stating that even though I'm going to buy a legitimate used copy on eBay or wherever, Garmin isn't going to make any money on it.

As far as I know there's nothing illegal about that!

Are you one of those people that thinks used music CD stores (or buying the last Michael Jackson CD on eBay) should be illegal?

If you do then you must work for the RIAA.

 

And yes, Garmin could have made the software an open source deal where others could make competing products. Garmin could have tried to compete by making their software *better* than everyone else's (they should afterall, have a leg up on any competitors). This is why I hate Microsoft; whether their product is the greatest in the world or not doesn't matter. I resent having no choice when I buy a computer but to use (and pay for!)Windows. Sure now there's Linux but that's far from being a mass market product yet and I still can't get my new PC from Dell or Gateway without Windows loaded on it.

 

If you don't think that someone mildly interested in getting involved in Geocaching or GPS' in general doesn't think $350 for a Vista is expensive you're wrong. But then when they find out the software is another $115 I think that $450 probably seals the deal as far as someone on the fence not purchasing it at all. And that means Garmin and indirectly all of us lose out as they have less volume and revenue to lower the cost of the units and develop new and better models.

More reasonably priced software might not scare away as many potential customers and would certainly encourage a lot of folks like me to buy directly from Garmin (and gain the resulting revenue) rather than hunting for a used copy on which they'll make nothing.

 

I want Garmin to continue to make high quality reasonably priced GPS units. I don't want them to get seduced away from that by the 80% margins they are making on [what is by most accounts mediocre] software.

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quote:
want Garmin to continue to make high quality reasonably priced GPS units. I don't want them to get seduced away from that by the 80% margins they are making on [what is by most accounts mediocre] software.

 

This is in my eyes fairly accurate appraisal. I have 2 of the Garmin Mapsource products and feel that they are at best adequate. One would hope that Garmin would want to produce superior products? I also have NG trip planner which seems to at least equal the Garmin products that I own. However, the NG product was about $80.00 less than the Garmin product and only thing that it doesn't do is copy waypoints and routes to the GPS. So does that mean that I am paying $80.00 for the ability to transfer routes and waypoints? $100 bucks is a lot of money for a simply adequate program. Lets hope that they are going to improve there products in the near future, or give up their little transfer routine to somebody who can do it better and cheaper.

 

An Irish Toast:

"May you be in heaven a half hour before

the Devil knows you're dead"

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It is expensive but probably priced about right due to the fact that it only works with Garmin. What really ticks me off is buying the GPS V and getting hosed on my software upgrade.

 

I missed the new city select and full unlock by about 2 months. My upgrade price is full retail. The window of 'upgrade for less' coincided with not having the money to throw at the software.

 

When I do upgrade I will do it via eBay and garmin won't get jack for their troubels. Call it voting with my dollars. My money voted the GPS V as the GPS of choice but it won't condone the rip off policy of their software or unlock codes.

 

Their support has been dismal and their customer service horrible. I was even nice. But "never" is a bit long to wait for an answer to a question.

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No I don't work for RIAA and certainly resale of products seem legal to me. And I apologize if my post called anyone a thief. My point was that piracy is stealing regardless of the rationale. There was a comment that people were paying so much on E-bay because after they copy it into their computer they resell it and keep the copy anyway. Well that's illegal, I believe. To say that Garmin should lower their price so that people will stop this practice won't work. These people will copy and sell even if the price is half-as much.

 

There are two issues with this topic as I see it.. 1. Stealing which is wrong period. Any justifications won’t convince me. 2. Pricing structure and quality that I'd be glad to discuss. Certainly there’s room there for lots of opinions.

 

First Garmin is not Microsoft. Magellan is a prime competitor of Garmin while Microsoft really has no competitors. Let's face it you pretty much cannot buy a computer without Microsoft. That is not true with GPS's. Regarding pricing, I'm sure Garmin marketing people sit around trying to figure the "right" price. Besides cost, they look at the competition, a major determinant in the process. Also, prices that are "high" now will come down as products mature. You see that with non-GPS software, with GPS hardware, etc. Garmin has already had coupons and hardware/software deals. With more and more GPS's being sold, their unit cost is going down so they'll be able to lower the sale price even more.

 

As far as open source, that goes back to the fact there are many GPS competitors unlike Microsoft. Also there is the practical side. Have you ever bought a software game or other that didn’t work on your computer? I have. If there’s “open” software, aren’t you going to expect Garmin to support everyone else’s mapping software? And who pays for the cost of verification, service telephone calls, etc. While it’s true that you’re stuck now with Garmin’s mapping software, at least they warranty it. They spend all their time making sure it works and they are constantly improving it. That could not be done if there was some kind of “open” protocol. If outside software didn’t work, Garmin would constantly be taking a “hit” for crummy equipment, bad operating systems, etc.

 

There’s also a subtle difference most people don’t think of when it comes to software. How many hardware products do you buy that has no re-programmable software? Let’s take Microwaves. When you buy a GE microwave do you want to put in software used in Sharp microwaves that might have a few fancy software routines that the GE does not have?? Of course not. You probably never thought of it. So just because GPS can be made re-programmable, loaded, why should they be? Why are they different then all the other things you buy that has firmware or non re-programmable software? It’s part and parcel with the hardware package. If you don’t like GE microwaves, buy a Sharp. No ones insists you buy Garmin; buy from a competitor.

 

By the way, if a GPS manufacturer eventually opens their software up, then the others might follow. Until then you’re stuck.

 

Now that I just purchase Metroguide, I’m thinking a selling my Delorme Street Atlas 2003. Anyone interested? I promise to erase it from my computer before I ship it.

 

Alan

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Do you people who think you're paying too much have any idea what goes into making an accurate computer map?? These maps all have to be hand digitized, which means mega hours and mega dollars in the initial investment.

 

I'm heavily involved in GIS mapping and GPS'ing. I've done digitizing, and one project I've been working on off and on for over two years if far from complete, and the end product will not be that impressive unless you're a GIS user and realize how much work went into it. Technology is pricey, and people who don't want to support the map makers of your GPS company are just shooting yourself in the foot.

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Whoa there, big fella.

Don't start telling me about how expensive it is to digitize maps. A quick scan of Amazon.com reveals the following:

Rand McNally StreetFinder & TripMaker Deluxe

Buy new: $39.99

Microsoft Streets & Trips 2002

Buy new: $32.99

Street Atlas USA Handheld Edition by DeLorme

Buy new: $39.99

Mapquest.com - Free

Mapblast.com - Free

 

You get the picture. All these companies & a lot more somehow managed to digitize maps and NOT charge $115. In fact, not only is it bad enough that Garmin, Magellan, et. al. are making a profit using satellites that our tax dollars paid for, but they are digitizing maps that are probably public domain anyway!

 

So even if Garmin went through the effort to digitize their own maps, why would they do it? As shown above, its been done many times before by several companies. I'll tell you why: so they could make it a propriatary setup and charge $115 and probably make an 80% margin, that's why!

 

They could easily have set up an agreement with Delorme or someone to use their maps and make them uploadable, sharing the profits. Any of these companies obviously have much more experience at making mapping software so the end result would be taking a superior and far cheaper EXISTING product and merely making it uploadable with Garmin's GPS's.

 

"It is expensive but probably priced about right due to the fact that it only works with Garmin. "

Nothing personal, but this is probably the most ridiculous statement in this thread. Of course its the only software that works with Garmin! Garmin made sure of that! Its not because Garmin's software is superior to everyone else's, it's because Garmin decided not to allow any other maps uploadable. These other (arguably better) programs are far cheaper. As stated, Garmin did NOT have to go about making its own software that didn't have appeal to more people than just select Garmin GPS owners.

 

As far as people still pirating & selling software even if the price were lower, yeah some people would. But how about Blockbuster? I can buy 2 VCRs, run down to Blockbuster and rent movies and copy them rather than pay $40 to buy them. Maybe I can even make copies of copies and sell them to my friends. Anyone can do that, but few do. You know why? Because it only costs a couple bucks to rent a video. But if it cost $30 to rent a video from Blockbuster you can bet that there would be bunches of people copying videos illegally. If the price is low enough people simply won't bother skirting the laws.

 

Garmin could have gone several ways in developing uploadable software. They realized what Microsoft realized years ago: there's more money in software than hardware.

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quote:
Do you people who think you're paying too much have any idea what goes into making an accurate computer map?? These maps all have to be hand digitized, which means mega hours and mega dollars in the initial investment.

 

I'm heavily involved in GIS mapping and GPS'ing. I've done digitizing, and one project I've been working on off and on for over two years if far from complete, and the end product will not be that impressive unless you're a GIS user and realize how much work went into it. Technology is pricey, and people who don't want to support the map makers of your GPS company are just shooting yourself in the foot.


 

But as a consumer it is not my worry how much it cost the manufacturer to produce a product. My only worry is how much they try to sell it for. Frankly I bought the Garmin products because they have what I want, and they are the only company the does.

 

If it is so time consuming and pricey how can NG, TopoGrafix, and MS offer very nice products at less than half the cost? The only difference that I see is that Garmin has ability upload maps to the GPS.

 

I like the Garmin Products, but I still think that they are a bit pricey considering the other offerings out there. icon_smile.gif

 

Regards

 

Timothius

 

An Irish Toast:

"May you be in heaven a half hour before

the Devil knows you're dead"

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quote:
Do you people who think you're paying too much have any idea what goes into making an accurate computer map?? These maps all have to be hand digitized, which means mega hours and mega dollars in the initial investment.

 

I'm heavily involved in GIS mapping and GPS'ing. I've done digitizing, and one project I've been working on off and on for over two years if far from complete, and the end product will not be that impressive unless you're a GIS user and realize how much work went into it. Technology is pricey, and people who don't want to support the map makers of your GPS company are just shooting yourself in the foot.


 

But as a consumer it is not my worry how much it cost the manufacturer to produce a product. My only worry is how much they try to sell it for. Frankly I bought the Garmin products because they have what I want, and they are the only company the does.

 

If it is so time consuming and pricey how can NG, TopoGrafix, and MS offer very nice products at less than half the cost? The only difference that I see is that Garmin has ability upload maps to the GPS.

 

I like the Garmin Products, but I still think that they are a bit pricey considering the other offerings out there. icon_smile.gif

 

Regards

 

Timothius

 

An Irish Toast:

"May you be in heaven a half hour before

the Devil knows you're dead"

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Maybe things are different over here, but I think the new MetroGuide Europe is good, when it comes to details and correctness, and a fair deal when it comes to cost. The previous MG Sweden/Denmark cost almost as much, but then you had to add Germany, United Kingdom, France, Spain and so on to get the same coverage.

 

If I was going to buy conventional road atlases, it would cost me several times more than the cost of MG Europe.

 

Anders

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I just bought Metroguide USA for $90 not the $115 previously posted. Who buys list price? There are plenty of reputable discounters out there.

 

Metroguide uses products from about 3 different mapping companies that Garmin has a deal with. So they already are working with pother mapping companies. While it's also true that some of their maps use public domain (government) maps, they re-package it. So do other mapping companies. National Geographic Topo for example uses USGS 7.5 24000 scale data quad maps. They buy the data from USGS and then re-package it, add their "bells and whistles" and sell it for 100 bucks a state! The very essence of GPS comes from US satellites paid for by the public. Would you want to buy your GPS from Uncle Sam or would you prefer a private company like Garmin or Magellan who compete on the playing field?

 

By the way, when was the last time you sent a check to the government for your use of their satellites? If you claim that your taxes allows you to use these satellites for "free", why can't Garmin and Magellan use government maps and manufacturer the GPS product to receive the signals? They pay taxes too.

 

Finally, there are plenty of PDA's out there where you can load a mapping program and hook up a GPS. That's the way I see this issue going anyway. So does Garmin apparently. I believe they recently made a deal with Palm to provide complementary services. This will answer all the complaints. Open protocol, choice of mapping programs, etc.

 

Alan

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In Norway, it seems that Garmin has co-operated with the Norwegian government's surveying authorities, to provied good topo maps, that can be downloaded into a Garmin mapping GPS receiver. These maps aren't cheap, compared to what the MetroGuide Europe will cost, for example, but it is at least yet another example of what kind of deals they can make.

 

A similar product for Sweden would of course be interesting to me, but I fear that the fanatically money-hungry Lantmäteriverket (Swedish Surveying authority) probably will put such a product way above any rasonable price range.

 

In Europe, virtually all vectorised maps are courtesy of NavTech. When I looked at the map coverage offered by Volvo, for fixed in the car navigation systems, it turned out to be almost exactly the same coverage and level of detail, which is offered by the MG Europe package. The main difference is that the car installed system allows a DVD reader, so all maps are available at all times.

 

Anders

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Got Metroguide on ebay for $74 for a sealed copy with the manual.

I have been using it for a few days while I'm on vacation and as expected its ok but not perfect. It can't find one of my hotels, for example.

 

Today I took it to the top of Pike's Peak today and tipped the altimeter at 14,110 feet icon_smile.gif

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Got Metroguide on ebay for $74 for a sealed copy with the manual.

I have been using it for a few days while I'm on vacation and as expected its ok but not perfect. It can't find one of my hotels, for example.

 

Today I took it to the top of Pike's Peak today and tipped the altimeter at 14,110 feet icon_smile.gif

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Hey everyone! I did a search on Kazaa (a P2P software, like napster) and found some various mapsource software. The only problem is that you are not exactly sure what you are getting until you get it, but for FREE I will give it a try anyday. I will let everyone know how it works out.

 

Also does anyone know what the best Topo software is for a etrex legend? Is the Mapsource software good? Please let me know.

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quote:
I am downloading metroguide from kazaa.com for free!

 

Well dang! Your momma should be proud of you! You found somewhere you can steal it from without leaving your computer! Hey...you know what? I sorta like the stereo in your car. I think I will "download" it from your dash to mine tonight? Whaddya think? Let me know what you do for a living o.k.? I'm going to find a way to steal some of it.

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Let's just say I am extra "sensitive" to this issue. Part of my living and my families living, is based on the software industry. I suppose it's one of those "victimless" crimes though, huh? No one really feels it when you "cyber" steal, do they? I mean, it's not like you walked into a store and swiped it is it?

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

Piracy is piracy. I could use the same argument about a Mercedes and say it's over priced therefore I'm going to buy it at a lower price from a guy who stole it from someone else than from the dealer. Or maybe you can justify copying music CD's on the basis that Michael Jackson is rich enough after all it probably only cost fifty cents to make a CD. Why should you spend ten bucks?

 

Nobody twisted your arm to buy Garmin. Buy Magelan or another GPS. Oh? They charge the same for mapping software? Hmmm. Well then maybe Garmin's pricing is fair. Certainly it's competitive which is what is fair. Competition defines price not your judgement as to what's fair. And you can't compare their software to someone else which cannot get loaded into the GPS. That's comparing apples and oranges. Besides the smaller quantity being sold, Garmin and Magellann and others have to deal with design interfacing with the hardware, dealing with warranty issues and service complaints, etc. That adds to their cost overhead?

 

But the bottom line is stealing is stealing. All the arguments justifying otherwise are not going to protect your soul.

 

Alan


 

In my opinion, Alan is right! Stealing is stealing. Now, just converting the music on a cd to .mp3, .ogg, (Ogg Vorbis), or whatever, for one's own personal use in one's own equipment is, to my knowledge fine. Whether or not it's piracy to then let others on a Peer To Peer network leech them off of you is still being debated.

 

All other things being equal, stealing is, as Alan stated, stealing!

 

 

Now, how to get around this? Are you tired of proprietary formats like Garmin's and Magellan's? Are you sick to death of the high-cost of this software--regardless of what the company *actually* does have to pay to keep software like this going?

 

Well, there really is only one answer for an across-the-board solution as I see it. That solution is Open Source Software! Try the following url out for size, then come back here and then you tell me.

 

GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation

Linux Mandrake

Debian GNU/Linux

Slackware Linux

QT GUI Kit Homepage (used in the Sharp Zaurus PDA)

Sharp Electronics Zaurus PDA (Running Emedded GNU/Linux and a QT-GUI)

 

Just see what open source is becoming! Let's work to build gps receiver units and internal firmware that can be *freely* distributed and is easy to manipulate so our own brand of favorite maps can be uploaded to them.

 

The future is now. The future is Open Source!

 

icon_biggrin.gificon_cool.gif

 

Cache On!

--Firefishe

 

196939_600.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

Piracy is piracy. I could use the same argument about a Mercedes and say it's over priced therefore I'm going to buy it at a lower price from a guy who stole it from someone else than from the dealer. Or maybe you can justify copying music CD's on the basis that Michael Jackson is rich enough after all it probably only cost fifty cents to make a CD. Why should you spend ten bucks?

 

Nobody twisted your arm to buy Garmin. Buy Magelan or another GPS. Oh? They charge the same for mapping software? Hmmm. Well then maybe Garmin's pricing is fair. Certainly it's competitive which is what is fair. Competition defines price not your judgement as to what's fair. And you can't compare their software to someone else which cannot get loaded into the GPS. That's comparing apples and oranges. Besides the smaller quantity being sold, Garmin and Magellann and others have to deal with design interfacing with the hardware, dealing with warranty issues and service complaints, etc. That adds to their cost overhead?

 

But the bottom line is stealing is stealing. All the arguments justifying otherwise are not going to protect your soul.

 

Alan


 

In my opinion, Alan is right! Stealing is stealing. Now, just converting the music on a cd to .mp3, .ogg, (Ogg Vorbis), or whatever, for one's own personal use in one's own equipment is, to my knowledge fine. Whether or not it's piracy to then let others on a Peer To Peer network leech them off of you is still being debated.

 

All other things being equal, stealing is, as Alan stated, stealing!

 

 

Now, how to get around this? Are you tired of proprietary formats like Garmin's and Magellan's? Are you sick to death of the high-cost of this software--regardless of what the company *actually* does have to pay to keep software like this going?

 

Well, there really is only one answer for an across-the-board solution as I see it. That solution is Open Source Software! Try the following url out for size, then come back here and then you tell me.

 

GNU Project and the Free Software Foundation

Linux Mandrake

Debian GNU/Linux

Slackware Linux

QT GUI Kit Homepage (used in the Sharp Zaurus PDA)

Sharp Electronics Zaurus PDA (Running Emedded GNU/Linux and a QT-GUI)

 

Just see what open source is becoming! Let's work to build gps receiver units and internal firmware that can be *freely* distributed and is easy to manipulate so our own brand of favorite maps can be uploaded to them.

 

The future is now. The future is Open Source!

 

icon_biggrin.gificon_cool.gif

 

Cache On!

--Firefishe

 

196939_600.gif

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or....

 

or you can get it free using peer2peer sharing....

 

limewire, morpheus...etc...

 

I am not advocating this so lets not get into a morality filled thread here please....

 

nuff said...

 

i will not admit to anything, nothing, or everything...

 

blame technology....

 

mmmmuuuuhahahhahahahahaahahahahaahaaaa

 

lates...

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I just bought Mapsource Bluechart CD Rom from TVNAV.COM, they said 5 days I had it in four,110$ compared to 125$ at the next cheapest place,the person I spoke to seemed very freindly and asked all the right questions to ensure that I got what I wanted. now I just gotta get my boat out this weekend and play around on Lake Michigan/Green Bay. the maps I loaded look KILLER!

 

2 THUMBS UP, for TVNAV.com. icon_biggrin.gif

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I just bought Mapsource Bluechart CD Rom from TVNAV.COM, they said 5 days I had it in four,110$ compared to 125$ at the next cheapest place,the person I spoke to seemed very freindly and asked all the right questions to ensure that I got what I wanted. now I just gotta get my boat out this weekend and play around on Lake Michigan/Green Bay. the maps I loaded look KILLER!

 

2 THUMBS UP, for TVNAV.com. icon_biggrin.gif

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