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GARMIN MAPSOURCE PRODUCTS A RIP OFF


RAD Dad

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"It is missing major streets that have been around for 10 years in my area. My parents entire neighborhood is missing, and it has been there for at least seven years."

 

I have MapSend Top. Email me and I'll give you directions to your parents house.

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quote:
Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:

Ok, I think there has been some major misunderstading in this thread, as in a total lack of communication, which has prompted some (IMHO) uncalled for sarcastic replies.

 

So I think I can explain why RAD Dad is not a happy camper. You see, not all of us make > $60k a year. In fact, to some of us, $100 US is alot of money. I would be displeased to spend $100 and find that I had purchased part of a product. I can go to MapsCo and buy an extremely detailed map for under $30, and it won't be missing any roads that existed as of the publication of said map. Therefore, I would expect that if I paid over 3 times that much I would receive a map of, at the very least, comparable quality. I don't feel that this is an unreasonable expectation, does anyone else?

Respectfully,

 

AtP


 

I don't think that the issue is that anyone sees $100 as chump change. Nor do I think that anyone disagrees that Garmin's maps are not perfect.

 

RAD Dad started the thread by essentially stating that Garmin's product is useless overpriced garbage and that people should go to other vendors for GPSs and maps.

 

The countering arguments are:

 

#1. Price comparisons between apples and oranges aren't fair. There are 15,000 printed 7.5 min quad maps for the US. To buy them would be about $75,000, and they would, colletively, be missing a lot more roads and names then the Garmin CD. Still, a $5 quad is a very, very, useful product in some circumstances.

 

#2. When competitive comparisons are made, the Garmin matches well against Magellan both in terms of price and completeness

 

#3. Bagging on Garmin over one software title shows little appreciation for what Garmin has done to stand behind it. Garmin allows maps to be viewed online before a customer makes a purchase (I don't know anyone else doing this).

 

Garmin responded promptly and, as far as I can tell, accurately to Rad Dad's complaints.

 

Garmin almost immediately offered to try to work with Rad Dad to obtain a refund from the dealer - even though the title in question is easily copied.

 

I'd like to see anyone here get that kind of service from Microsoft for a $100 title or, for that matter, Lexus for a $60,000 car...

 

-jjf

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I've been pretty satisfied using both Mapsource Topo and Road and Recreation for over 6 months in my Vista. I live and use the unit in the NY Metro area (NYC alone has over 7,ooo miles of streets). While I have noticed some streets missing from time to time, I've never gotten lost or couldn't find the way to where wanted to go.

 

Also, I've yet to buy any aoftware that exactly met my needs, didn't have glitches in it or the features and peration I got didn't exactly meet what I thought I was buying.

 

Garmin seems to be reasonable and wanting "to make good". Why don't you try to be fair to them and return the product and let us know how you made out. icon_smile.gif

 

Alan

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I've been pretty satisfied using both Mapsource Topo and Road and Recreation for over 6 months in my Vista. I live and use the unit in the NY Metro area (NYC alone has over 7,ooo miles of streets). While I have noticed some streets missing from time to time, I've never gotten lost or couldn't find the way to where wanted to go.

 

Also, I've yet to buy any aoftware that exactly met my needs, didn't have glitches in it or the features and peration I got didn't exactly meet what I thought I was buying.

 

Garmin seems to be reasonable and wanting "to make good". Why don't you try to be fair to them and return the product and let us know how you made out. icon_smile.gif

 

Alan

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

 

I don't think that the issue is that anyone sees $100 as chump change. Nor do I think that anyone disagrees that Garmin's maps are not perfect.

 

RAD Dad started the thread by essentially stating that Garmin's product is useless overpriced garbage and that people should go to other vendors for GPSs and maps.

 

The countering arguments are:

 

#1. Price comparisons between apples and oranges aren't fair. There are 15,000 printed 7.5 min quad maps for the US. To buy them would be about $75,000, and they would, colletively, be missing a lot more roads and names then the Garmin CD. Still, a $5 quad is a very, very, useful product in some circumstances.

 

#2. When competitive comparisons are made, the Garmin matches well against Magellan both in terms of price and completeness

 

#3. Bagging on Garmin over one software title shows little appreciation for what Garmin has done to stand behind it. Garmin allows maps to be viewed online before a customer makes a purchase (I don't know anyone else doing this).

 

Garmin responded promptly and, as far as I can tell, accurately to Rad Dad's complaints.

 

Garmin almost immediately offered to try to work with Rad Dad to obtain a refund from the dealer - even though the title in question is easily copied.

 

I'd like to see anyone here get that kind of service from Microsoft for a $100 title or, for that matter, Lexus for a $60,000 car...

 

-jjf


 

Thank you. This tells my why you think RAD Dad is being unreasonable. I didn't get any of this from your previous post. And I don't argue that Garmin is being fair by offering a refund. That's more than you'd get from any other software manufacturer.

 

And is closing (not to thread-jack this topic) you must hate M$ nearly as much as I do, seeing how often you reference them negatively. icon_smile.gif I work in the IT industry and I am intimate with the Evil Empire, I'm sad to say.

 

AtP

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

 

I don't think that the issue is that anyone sees $100 as chump change. Nor do I think that anyone disagrees that Garmin's maps are not perfect.

 

RAD Dad started the thread by essentially stating that Garmin's product is useless overpriced garbage and that people should go to other vendors for GPSs and maps.

 

The countering arguments are:

 

#1. Price comparisons between apples and oranges aren't fair. There are 15,000 printed 7.5 min quad maps for the US. To buy them would be about $75,000, and they would, colletively, be missing a lot more roads and names then the Garmin CD. Still, a $5 quad is a very, very, useful product in some circumstances.

 

#2. When competitive comparisons are made, the Garmin matches well against Magellan both in terms of price and completeness

 

#3. Bagging on Garmin over one software title shows little appreciation for what Garmin has done to stand behind it. Garmin allows maps to be viewed online before a customer makes a purchase (I don't know anyone else doing this).

 

Garmin responded promptly and, as far as I can tell, accurately to Rad Dad's complaints.

 

Garmin almost immediately offered to try to work with Rad Dad to obtain a refund from the dealer - even though the title in question is easily copied.

 

I'd like to see anyone here get that kind of service from Microsoft for a $100 title or, for that matter, Lexus for a $60,000 car...

 

-jjf


 

Thank you. This tells my why you think RAD Dad is being unreasonable. I didn't get any of this from your previous post. And I don't argue that Garmin is being fair by offering a refund. That's more than you'd get from any other software manufacturer.

 

And is closing (not to thread-jack this topic) you must hate M$ nearly as much as I do, seeing how often you reference them negatively. icon_smile.gif I work in the IT industry and I am intimate with the Evil Empire, I'm sad to say.

 

AtP

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Hey there, Rad Dad... If you want to go around writting illogical letters to Garmin, please feel free to do so. But when you write

 

quote:
I have been discussing this issue on Geocaching.com with fellow GPSr users, and have found that Magellan also has similar problems, however they are missing different streets than you are missing....odd, almost enough to make one think the missing streets are there for a reason maybe?

 

and make it sound like people who use the Geocaching forum are a bunch of incompetant and illogical idiots, my blood starts to boil. It seems that the majority of the people on this thread seem to dissagree with you in some, if not all respects.

 

I've never met Mr. JFitzPat, nor have I engaged with any e-mailing, but from other threads and the knowlege he produces, I find him absolutely logical, credible and feel 100% confident he knows what he is talking about. So when there is a thread where you rant, he offers a very intelligent explanation and you look past it to keep up a gripe session, I am swayed towards his opions.

 

Again, if you want to be an idiot, be one. But don't make the rest of us look like idiots along with you.

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Reading the letter series, Garmin was not rude, and took the time to explain what goes into the process. Further they (and I didn't know about this until reading some of this thread) have a preview site on their website that you can use to spot check your area.

 

In my experience there is always lag. Bet it 2 years or 10, or wose in the case of USGS topos!

 

At least Garmin has a way for you to check it out before you buy. I can understand the annoyance but the means to verify before the purchase was there.

 

I don't see that anyone is going to be happy however this turns out.

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My my my, you all sure do get worked up. The hostility I am recieving is TOTALLY uncalled for. I guess I'm the only one who finds it odd that both Garmin and Magellan have maps missing data that non-gps proprietary digital maps have. Now, I like the way the gentleman at Garmin answered my questions and deep felt concerns, with patience, understanding and tact. Those of you who want to get personal in your attacks on me could learn a thing or two from him.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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One last thing, if you will reread all the previous posts you will see I have said this in different ways through out this entire thread.

 

My issue is not, nor has not, been simply that the maps are out of date, and they could (and do in City Navigator) do better.

 

My issue is that they DO NOT make it clear how old the information is. They claim that Metroguide was RECENTLY updated yet it still is missing the same information Roads and Recreation is missing. IN THE FIRST RESPONSE I GOT they said and I quote, "We apologize that your area is so out of date. We released the most up to date software available to us, for a reasonable price, when we originally release R&R."

 

Well unless that data was 10 years old and that was the most recent available, THEY DIDN'T. Even in that response the notion trying to be presented is that they got the most accurate they could at the time.

 

As I have said before, I wouldn't have a problem with ANY of the data they are selling IF they simply made it clear how old that data was. I will give them the tip of my hat for at least allowing us to preview the product as is pointed out by so many, and I did acknowledge this myself, I even used the preview feature before buying. But I should not have to sit there and go through street by street to figure out how old stuff is.

 

ALL I WANTED was for them to be UP FRONT with the age of the information so I could make a decision without expecting one thing and getting another.

 

Have I been ranting? Yes. Have I been irrational? I really don't think so, though some of the comebacks sound more like sycophantic appologetics, I mean what? Do you get payed by Garmin to defend them so strongly? Are you on the board or something? Do you own stock and fear that my rant will cause a price drop? Come on, the way you attack is uncalled for. Although I have noticed that certain individuals tend to attack in other threads as well and come off VERY condescending to others who see things differently, so the tenor of your responses I guess should just be considered as par for the course for some of you.

 

Yeah, I'm no expert, but what I expressed is how things looked to this layman who does know full well how some business' work, and who is a little more aware than the average joe of what IS possible in the tech field. IF Garmin did do some of the things I was saying it appears they were doing they wouldn't be the first company to pull that kind of thing, and I'm not saying they did, as I have vented my suspecions and frustrations, I have gotten many good answers from Matt at Garmin, as well as some good info from responses here. (I don't say those of you who are being almost vicious in your response are totally full of it, the info is helpful, just that the tenor of your response creates more a sense of confrontation and would put most in a position of defensive posturing than a receptive mindset.)

 

Any way, I do not plan on returning my Roads and Recreation, this venting has been quite therapudic, and some of the more understanding responses here have helped as well. It is clear that I really don't have anywhere else to go to get a better product, unless I go with software for my Visor and use one of the GPSr's that plug into it, but that is not a very durrable option, as the Visor is not exactly waterproof or shock proof, and so far as the hardware goes, Garmin still looks like the best on the block....though that new Navitrack Digital Assistant looks pretty cool, though I don't like the viewfinder idea and it looks like it also will have a very steep pricetag.

 

Which reminds me, thanks Markusby for calling me an incompetent illogical idiot. Made me feel real small. I'm sorry that I'm not a beta testing mapping expert like yourself. I'm sure the Garmin guy, Matt, realized that I was responding as a layman and not an expert, and that as a layman, what I was expressing is how things appeared to me, and that those appearences aren't a result of me being an incompetent illogical idiot, just proof that I'm not an industry expert. I hope Matt does check out this site and read this thread, I'm sure he would be happy to see how many wonderful, thoughtful, and understanding defenders of Garmin are here. Oh wait, maybe he will just see a bunch of people who are hostile and condesending to anyone who sees things differntly and dares to express their feelings with out first making sure they are an expert on the subject.

 

In conclusion, thanks people.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

 

My issue is not, nor has not, been simply that the maps are out of date, and they could (and do in City Navigator) do better.


 

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here, but what I think you are saying that City Navigator is a product you would prefer to have. I own City Navigator because it came with my SPIII but I do not use it because the road data is not as good as MetroGuide USA. Outside of the boundaries of major urban areas, it's actually worse than the basemap in my handhelds.

 

I'm telling you this so we don't have another thread like this in two weeks, which, to be quite honest, has grown tiresome.

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

13914_200.jpg

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quote:

Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:

And is closing (not to thread-jack this topic) you must hate M$ nearly as much as I do, seeing how often you reference them negatively. icon_smile.gif I work in the IT industry and I am intimate with the Evil Empire, I'm sad to say.


 

Actually, my relationship with Mr. Bill & Company goes way back (pre 8080 Macro Assembler for CP/M). I've always had begrudging respect for his single minded drive. I also think that MS does many things well, including turning on a dime (amazing for a company their size).

 

As a developer I have been hosed by MS numerous times. But, you just have go with the flow. I've never worked directly for MS, but I have worked directly with MS project groups on behalf of clients. Again, the lying and holding back makes me grit my teeth sometimes, but it is all part of the MS philosophy, so you just learn to expect it.

 

Bill himself is a bit of an odd duck. He was always self assured and arrogant (even pre DOS), though I think that marriage has softened him quite a bit. An amazing jumper and, like myself, runs on less sleep than average (he scared the @#$%@# out of me after 3:00 am in one of the Redmond 'campus' buildings once).

 

Begruding respect for the company, and kinda like the man - but I still call it like I see it. A very predatory beast, and one I am never completely comfortable swimming with.

 

-jjf

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quote:

Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:

And is closing (not to thread-jack this topic) you must hate M$ nearly as much as I do, seeing how often you reference them negatively. icon_smile.gif I work in the IT industry and I am intimate with the Evil Empire, I'm sad to say.


 

Actually, my relationship with Mr. Bill & Company goes way back (pre 8080 Macro Assembler for CP/M). I've always had begrudging respect for his single minded drive. I also think that MS does many things well, including turning on a dime (amazing for a company their size).

 

As a developer I have been hosed by MS numerous times. But, you just have go with the flow. I've never worked directly for MS, but I have worked directly with MS project groups on behalf of clients. Again, the lying and holding back makes me grit my teeth sometimes, but it is all part of the MS philosophy, so you just learn to expect it.

 

Bill himself is a bit of an odd duck. He was always self assured and arrogant (even pre DOS), though I think that marriage has softened him quite a bit. An amazing jumper and, like myself, runs on less sleep than average (he scared the @#$%@# out of me after 3:00 am in one of the Redmond 'campus' buildings once).

 

Begruding respect for the company, and kinda like the man - but I still call it like I see it. A very predatory beast, and one I am never completely comfortable swimming with.

 

-jjf

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pote"I also felt it was kinda sneaky of you to edit the copy of the email that had Garmin's privacy disclosure after I mentioned it. Deleting their request for you to keep the email confidential doesn't change their desire for it to remain that way, plus, it makes me look a little goofy for mentioning something that appears not to have existed. That there told me a little about your character and your desire to beat on this horse no matter what. Next time I'll use the quotes."

 

I sent you a personal Email after you posted that note. Did you not get it??? I did not intend AT ALL to make you look goofy. I removed it because you raised the potential that it might be a problem for Groundspeak, and I frankly DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE THAT, until you pointed it out, so I PROMPTLY removed that notice. Also, that first response from that individual was the ONLY response which came with any such disclaimer. I was not intending to decieve anyone. I was however trying to make sure that Groundspeak would not be obligated to delete the message out of fear of reprocussions. But frankly, that correspondance is MINE to do with as I please, and sharing it is in no violation what so ever. Just as I could legally record a phone conversation I was having and then disclose it to whoever I please.

Oh and thanks for the backhanded slight on my character as well.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

 

[This message was edited by RAD Dad on April 12, 2002 at 02:42 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by TresOkies:

quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

 

My issue is not, nor has not, been simply that the maps are out of date, and they could (and do in City Navigator) do better.


 

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here, but what I think you are saying that City Navigator is a product you would prefer to have. I own City Navigator because it came with my SPIII but I do not use it because the road data is not as good as MetroGuide USA. Outside of the boundaries of major urban areas, it's actually worse than the basemap in my handhelds.

 

I'm telling you this so we don't have another thread like this in two weeks, which, to be quite honest, has grown tiresome.

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/avatar/13914_200.jpg


 

My basis for believing the City Navigator was more accurate was simply that though the exact same streets were missing on Roads and Rec and Metroguide, they were not missing on City Navigator, it was not based on any long term use of the product. So thanks for the update, I guess none of thier product are all that accurate right now then. Bummer.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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So that Pote doesn't feel so goofy, here is the confidentiality note I removed.

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE

 

This email and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e-mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

 

Please note it says "If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distrubution..."

 

Well I WAS the intended recipient, and it would NOT therefore be prohibited for ME to do with it as I please. So I was VIOLATING NOTHING. I only removed it because Pote suggested that it COULD be a problem for Jeremy, I hadn't thought about that at all, but upon his suggestion that it was a problem, I agreed and promptly removed it.

 

So sorry for any goofyness that Pote may have appeared to have. I don't think he's goofy at all, even if he does think I have poor character.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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The main reason that MS can sell Streets and Trips for $20 and Garmin has to sell the same data for $100 is simple economies of scale. MS is going to sell a boat load of Streets and Trips to everyone and their brother, so they can afford to pay for the NavTech tweaked GDT data. Straight NavTech data is REALLY expensive. The City Select product uses NavTech and it fairly accurate for major metropolitan areas, but Garmin chose to nickel and dime it's customers that paid $500 for a GPS V by only allowing us to only register a single region of the US.

 

The thing that will be interesting is when Garmin starts getting super-accurate (digitized from ortho photos) centerline data from your local county auditor for next to nothing and then continues to charge high prices for the pleasure of using their software.

 

Another thought is that perhaps people would be willing to live with the extra cost if some functionality were added to allow you to perform map edits. How would you accurately place a new street on the map, you ask? Well, drive down it and trace over the track line. It wouldn't be rocket science and I can't imagine it would be difficult to add to the base product.

 

Just my two cents on the matter...

 

All I can say is thank goodness for Morpheus!!

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

They claim that Metroguide was RECENTLY updated yet it still is missing the same information Roads and Recreation is missing.


 

Rad Dad... can we imagine for a moment that the world encompasses an area somewhat larger than your parents subdivision. Lets also assume that things are constantly changing everywhere.

 

NavTech updates their data on a continual basis, Garmin buys that data at some point and produces a product based on that data at the instant. Now, years later Garmin buys updated data from the same supplier to produce and updated version of the same product.

 

How can we for a moment expect every conceivable change to be incorporated in the update. They missed a subdivision that was 5 years old. So what, I bet they missed hundreds of them. At the same time I am betting that there are hundreds of new subdivisions that are newer than 5 years old that are included in the update.

 

Notwithstanding, your missing corner of the globe, the data is indeed updated as they claim. Error free, no... but they never claimed it was.

 

Garmin provides an online form for you to submit errors and omissions that you find in their mapping to their cartography department. I assume you have submitted your missing areas to them after your discovery. If you haven't then you are not helping identify areas containing errors and therby improving the product in future updates.

 

quote:
Originally posted by BusBoy:

 

All I can say is thank goodness for Morpheus!!


BusBoy... I hope that is a joke. If not, thieves such as yourself are part of the reason legitimate MapSource owners, such as myself, pay a premium price for the product.

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No problem Pote. I understand how that can happen. You must be a really popular guy to get all those emails icon_smile.gif

 

I have had the same thing happen with another board I used to frequent, I got tons of email every day, it took a couple months of inactivity before the emails finally slowed down, and I still get a few here and there.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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No problem Pote. I understand how that can happen. You must be a really popular guy to get all those emails icon_smile.gif

 

I have had the same thing happen with another board I used to frequent, I got tons of email every day, it took a couple months of inactivity before the emails finally slowed down, and I still get a few here and there.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Irregardless of whether I am a "thief" or not, I was putting forward the comment for discussion. Actually, I was just curious if it would elicit a sanctimonious response. Thanks for proving me right!!

 

[This message was edited by BusBoy on April 12, 2002 at 10:33 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by BusBoy:

Actually, I was just curious if it would elicit a sanctimonious response. Thanks for proving me right and remaining true to the stories that I have heard!!


 

His comment was not sanctimonious. Just a practical reminder that someone pays for all the "free" software and music that gets distributed via Morpheus, Gnutella, et. al.

 

AtP

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I was accused of being a "thief" based on what was meant as an offhand comment. Now, I will grant you that perhaps it wasn't clear to everyone, but what if that was my signature line and it had nothing to do with the issue at hand?

 

For the record, I have happily given Garmin about $700 US dollars for my GPS V and Legend, so I am doing my part to keep the costs down for everyone out there!!

 

I'm even thinking about getting a GPSMap76S...so there!!

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quote:
Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:

 

His comment was not sanctimonious. Just a practical reminder that _someone_ pays for all the "free" software and music that gets distributed via Morpheus, Gnutella, et. al.

 

AtP


Sure he's sanctimonious. He didn't pay for those free sattelites he's using for his GPS.

 

 

icon_eek.gif Look out --- here comes the flames..

 

7301_400.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by Atilla the Pun:

 

His comment was not sanctimonious. Just a practical reminder that _someone_ pays for all the "free" software and music that gets distributed via Morpheus, Gnutella, et. al.

 

AtP


Sure he's sanctimonious. He didn't pay for those free sattelites he's using for his GPS.

 

 

icon_eek.gif Look out --- here comes the flames..

 

7301_400.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

 

Sure he's sanctimonious. He didn't pay for those free sattelites he's using for his GPS.


 

I must be old. I can't see the comparison between utilizing a receiver tuned to use a system that was intentionally made public with stealing directly from me and other owners of intellectual property.

 

Since I have been ripped off by Morpheus (and its ancestor BBSs and kin) I think I should be able to at least complain about the practice, whether the attention-span-of-a-peanut instant messaging crowd thinks it is 'sanctimonious' or not.

 

Still, I do wish that true wry wit would make a comeback. The 'free satellite' comment only works if one avoids thinking about it, or arming oneself with actual facts. Off the top of my head I can find 6 ways that Canadian funds can be traced to NAVSTAR. Two paths for intellectual property.

 

Go ahead, flame away. If you pirate software, you are a thief. If you feel compelled to make rationalizations and moral comparisons, you are also a coward. I think that some people could learn from the mysterious "Pierce" (sp. vary), who masterminded the "Great Train Robbery". When asked, in court, as to motive he simply answered "I wanted the money."

 

I'd mind the constant theft of intellectual property less if the folks doing the stealing could take a lesson from this and be a bit less sanctimonious about their actions... icon_wink.gif

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by Byron & Anne:

 

Sure he's sanctimonious. He didn't pay for those free sattelites he's using for his GPS.


 

I must be old. I can't see the comparison between utilizing a receiver tuned to use a system that was intentionally made public with stealing directly from me and other owners of intellectual property.

 

Since I have been ripped off by Morpheus (and its ancestor BBSs and kin) I think I should be able to at least complain about the practice, whether the attention-span-of-a-peanut instant messaging crowd thinks it is 'sanctimonious' or not.

 

Still, I do wish that true wry wit would make a comeback. The 'free satellite' comment only works if one avoids thinking about it, or arming oneself with actual facts. Off the top of my head I can find 6 ways that Canadian funds can be traced to NAVSTAR. Two paths for intellectual property.

 

Go ahead, flame away. If you pirate software, you are a thief. If you feel compelled to make rationalizations and moral comparisons, you are also a coward. I think that some people could learn from the mysterious "Pierce" (sp. vary), who masterminded the "Great Train Robbery". When asked, in court, as to motive he simply answered "I wanted the money."

 

I'd mind the constant theft of intellectual property less if the folks doing the stealing could take a lesson from this and be a bit less sanctimonious about their actions... icon_wink.gif

 

-jjf

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"CityNavigator and CitySelect are map systems using the MapSource software engine coupled to NavTech vector maps. NavTech has the most accurate road guidance maps we have seen and NavTech maps are used by almost all of the higher priced Car Navigation systems. (Such as VDO Dayton, Alpine, Philips Carin, etc.) Garmin's LATEST (June 2002) version 4.01 of CN (and the coming soon CS maps version) cover about the 120+ largest metro areas in the USA with full high detailed car navigation database information. The previous CN/CS version had sparse coverage in most rural areas BUT! New NavTech maps are now available and these (I will call CN-II and CS-II) new Garmin offerings have FULL USA ROAD COVERAGE just like MetroGuide. These new NavTech maps do NOT have complete POI and house numbering and etc in the RURAL areas just as MG-II does not. This improved coverage makes CN and CS much more desirable as a single solution map system as compared with the older CN and CS which had high detail road coverage ONLY in the 120+ largest metro areas."

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I use a Garmin Vista with MapSource R&R CD. Considering the product capabilities, cost, and huge amount of information, I am very happy with the product. Sure it would be great if it were more up-to-date but I don't see that as practical. If you have the expectation that a map vendor should can somehow let customers know what might be missing or which particular areas are out of date, you will be disappointed.

 

I was impressed with Garmins response and suggest you take them up on thier offer, then go find a better product - I'd be interested to hear if you find something with similar features, that meets your expectation.

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The Brunton Multi-Nav may no longer be a cutting edge GPS unit in terms of GPS technology, but they have the map issue down perfect in that you can load just about any mapping software into the unit.

 

Carry two GPS units into the field, the Brunton for the maps, and a Magellan SporTrak Pro for it's superior antenna array.

 

icon_rolleyes.gif

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The Brunton Multi-Nav may no longer be a cutting edge GPS unit in terms of GPS technology, but they have the map issue down perfect in that you can load just about any mapping software into the unit.

 

Carry two GPS units into the field, the Brunton for the maps, and a Magellan SporTrak Pro for it's superior antenna array.

 

icon_rolleyes.gif

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I'm using the MapSource Topo maps and they are great for my part of the world. I live in the Four Corners (AZ, NM, CO, UT), where we are coverd in small, unmaintained oilfield roads. The topos are pretty accurate and show roads that are just barely visible. In addition, the Topos show good detail of the various towns around the area. For the money, they are great!

 

icon_eek.gif Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son!

 

[This message was edited by ChazC on July 08, 2002 at 10:33 AM.]

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I'm using the MapSource Topo maps and they are great for my part of the world. I live in the Four Corners (AZ, NM, CO, UT), where we are coverd in small, unmaintained oilfield roads. The topos are pretty accurate and show roads that are just barely visible. In addition, the Topos show good detail of the various towns around the area. For the money, they are great!

 

icon_eek.gif Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son!

 

[This message was edited by ChazC on July 08, 2002 at 10:33 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by The Shadows Know:

The Brunton Multi-Nav may no longer be a cutting edge GPS unit in terms of GPS technology, but they have the map issue down perfect in that you can load just about any mapping software into the unit.


 

This would be very nice if it were true. Unfortunately, the Brunton MNS has no capability to display any maps at all unless you call the diagram of your tracklog and waypoints a "map".

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I could not find my neighborhood on the City Select CD. I live 20 miles from downtown Portland Oregon and my neighborhood was first built in 1976. I can find my house with Microsoft's online TerraServe maps. I was very disappointed. I also could not get my Pc laptop with a serial to usb adapter to find the Garmin GPS V, nor could I get my mac to locate it using the same adapter cable and virtual pc. I finally gave up and sent it back.

 

I will wait until Garmin has a USB ready unit with a memory slot of some sort. Life is too short to spend all this time messing with it.

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After finding this thread I kinda did some checking. I wasn't going to get a Garmin product anyway I am getting a magellan but I have read they are really close so I figured I would check this out. My road was built 11 years ago. The only Garmin map that has it is the City navigator. I couldnt' find it anywhere else. That didn't really bother me. Alot of trails that I normally hike aren't in there. That didn't bother me I have paper maps and a means of printing paper topo's. What did bother me was that USGS Topo data was missing from the maps that I was looking at. In my area there is a abandoned USAF Base from the 50's that was an early warning station. But before that was built the USGS Topo maps designated that area a specific name. It just happens to not be in there. Along with the logging roads that lead to it. Which are used today for logging and misc mining in that area. They are very wide so that tractor trailers can pass each other on them and they are very maintained. In other words you can take your family car up there and have no problems. And these roads have been in use for at least 50 years. Since that Air Base is 50 years old. And when you purchase the USGS topo that was made for that area and not updated since 1976 or 81 can't remember which anyway when you roll that out its all there in striking detail. I just can't figure that. I thought that the USGS topo's were what they started with when they went to make new Topo's. And they updated and added from there. I don't care that my 11 year old road isn't in there. And I don't care that those trails aren't in there. (I haven't found any Delorme product that has them) But it does make me think when I start comparing it to the paper USGS topo maps I have and to the Delrome Software that has all of these old points and place names that haven't changed since before the 50's and this doesn't have them.

IMHO if there is a fire tower on a ridge and the USGS map shows it, And the Delrome Topo software shows it, and I drive out to it and look at it and its still there, then this software should show it. Not because I want such minor details in my mapping software. But because the maps that this software should be based on have it and nothing has happend to it in 20 years then it should be in there. And by the way i also think its very ratty that Magellan sells their Mapsend Topo software for $99 until they offer a $50 rebate and now its all of a sudden $149.

 

They need to open it up and let some companies compete. It would take a couple years but the cream would rise to the top. But why do that when you can keep on keeping on and charge $99 or $149 for something. I wouldn't.

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to Delorme - not only is it missing most of the town I live in (Ladera Ranch, CA), but the datasets are off by ~1000'! When driving with the GPS hooked up to my laptop, SA2003 had me driving through lakes, houses, etc. - it was useless. After calling Delorme's tech support, and e-mailing them screenshots of my GPS track and tracklog, they confirmed that the data on the CD is wrong (at least in SoCal). OK, so can you send me a corrected CD? "Oh, I'll let the people that manage the data know about the problem, but we're not going to fix it in this release."

 

Huh?

 

Sent it back to them for a refund.

 

As consumers, we should not pay for products that do not work. If your mapping program does not have the streets you need to map - what use is it? Send it back.

 

Bought a Thomas Guide for Orange County - it has Ladera Ranch's streets - go figure... a printed map is the most complete map I can get. Plus, the batteries never die! icon_biggrin.gif

 

SteveL

 

Wherever you go, there you are.

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I just sent a email to Garmin to express my recent purchase of TOPO. I'm hoping they listen. It definitly will detrmine my purchase of Metro, or even purchasing a Garmin in the future. But when it comes down to it, I might get the NatGeo Topo, and just print out the map when caching along with my bearing pointer. Who knows?

 

Here is the email:

 

Not real happy with your TOPO for the money.

and I'm told you copy these maps from someone else.

Now notice I said "for the money".

I enjoy the maps, but now I have to go out and get the Metro also for ANOTHER hundred bucks!!!!

I'd sure would have got the NatGeo Topo, but it won't download into the Garmin....bummer....cause the 1:24000 sounds better, and it looks like I get more. and reading others reviews of your Metro, it sounds like it is more then ten years old in it's updates.

I would fully understand if it was about $20.00 for the software....and almost expected!, but at $100.00 buck a crack for every one of your software packages....I definitly expected a whole lot more.

 

Thanks for listening.

Happy New Year!

Mike K. (BignFat)

Geocacher

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I posted several examples of some of the mapping software from both magellan and Garmin on my website several months ago. Which is more accurate or detailed varies with the area you're in. Unfortunately, most of the areas I try and navigate in are not areas where the maps are worth the trouble. I find them more of an annoyance than of value, and don't use them for road navigation at all. I do like them for use in wilderness areas, but only as a quick reference for positioning myself on a real map. Feel free to check out my examples at:

 

http://home.sprynet.com/~searching_ut/street%20maps.htm

 

Jeff

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It's in City Navigator, it's not in Roads and Rec. City Navigator are Navtech maps, Metroguide is TeleAtlas. Metroguide doesn't have my street either, R&R does. MS Streets and Trips has it cold, Rand McNally doesn'rt even have the name of my town of 20k people correct.

 

I'm not whining. You take what you get.

 

Besides that, do I really need a GPS to find the house?

 

Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

Just to list a few streets missing streets for you Jvavrus, look in the Salem area for Hawthorne Ave. Between Mission (Hwy 22) and State Street. This part of Hawthorne is new, it was built around 10 years ago, but compared to the rest, it is new. Look for Kenard Ct. N.W. or Jev Ct. N.W. these streets are both around 7 years old, but not shown. Linwood St. NW between Ammon and Redwood is missing. Also, Orchard View off of Linwood is not there. All these streets are at least four years old.

 

I could go on.


 

I took a look at my Mapsource CitySelect and all of the roads you named above were on that disc. The catch... it can only be used on a GPS V (for autorouting functions), NavTalk® GSM phone and the GPSMAP 196. Otherwise you can't use it on any of the other receivers. Sorry. It looks like it would be the most accurate mapset for your needs.

 

If you want a problem just a bit more significant than a missing subdivision, try the whole state of Pennsylvania. Three years ago PA changed the way the exits were numbered. We went from sequentially numbered exits to exits matching mile markers. Most of Garmin's products have the old exit numbering scheme including the basemap for the GPS. The exit services information isn't nearly as useful for an unknown exit if you don't know the real exit info. CitySelect has corrected this but, as far as what I've seen, everything else has the wrong exit numbers. That's not too good for someone who doesn't know anything about the area they're driving in.

 

[This message was edited by avaloncourt on January 02, 2003 at 04:50 PM.]

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maybe rad dad should have 'previewed' the software he bought, first by downloading it through a peer-to-peer network first from www.limewire.com

 

then decide if he wanted to buy it or not...

 

if he then liked it he could have honestly deleted all traces of the program from his hard drive and then bought the program legitimately from a retailer....

 

or perhaps not...

 

hahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........

 

lates...

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