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GARMIN MAPSOURCE PRODUCTS A RIP OFF


RAD Dad

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I recently payed too much ($100 bucks) for Garmin's Roads and Recreation CD. I say too much not because I payed more than retail, I got it for less than they sell it at Garmin's site. (they sell it for $119) I payed too much because it should be free it is so out of date. It is missing major streets that have been around for 10 years in my area. My parents entire neighborhood is missing, and it has been there for at least seven years. I checked out Metroguide which Garmin claims was just updated last year (and costs even more money) and the same streets are missing on it. (although they do have a Denny's shown as being there even though the streets you take to get to it are not shown as existing, it's just kind of sitting in the middle of nothing according to the map program.)

 

It's not like this is some little town the info is missing in, it is Salem Oregon, the state capitol. I payed good money for this program and it is terribly out of date.

 

I payed $20 bucks (plus I got a $10 rebate so a net of $10) for Microsofts Streets and Trips and it has all of these streets, in fact the only streets in my area I couldn't find on it were in areas that have just been built in the last two years. Of course the ONLY map programs you can upload to your Garmin are Garmin maps.

 

I wouldn't be so upset if they didn't charge such a high price for thier software, but they charge first class prices for a third class product. That is just lame. I wish I had known about this....I wouldn't have bought a Garmin. I had heard so much good about their Hardware, I figured they would be top notch in the software as well. What good is quality hardware if you can't pair it up with quality software??? In this age software is just as important as the hardware.

 

Unless they do something to win me back, my next GPSr will NOT be a Garmin.

 

If I pay a high price, I expect high quality.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Rad Dad,

 

I am sorry to hear that. I was considering that software but now I guess not. I have a Garmin Legend and also have a Delorme TripMate with Topo 3.0 and SA USA 8.0. I have been using those to plan my Cache finds and Stashes. Then I just start walking once the roads end. I think the price for the MapSource is much to high and now that I hear that it is outdated, it is a ripoff. I live in Lewiston, Idaho. Pop. 30,000. I know it will not be updated. Thanks for the Heads up on that. I will post a warning on my website stating the problem and linking this Forum.

 

Thanks Again,

Frank

IdahoMan

IdahoMan@cableone.net

Lewis Clark Valley GeoCachers

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Virtually all street map programs and online mapping services are based on what is called Tiger Line data. It is data generated by the US Census Bureau. My understanding is that the Bureau, in turn, relies on each state to provide certain information. So, data for a particular area can be older than the Tiger date.

 

According to the online reviews (Joe M., etc.), and the vendor sites themselves, Metroguide USA is based on the newest line data of any Garmin or Magellan product.

 

The reason that the product is a hundred bucks instead of ten seems pretty clear, higher development costs (prep for tiny memory footprint and limited display), lower volume (hardware specific products always are), and higher per incident support cost (Garmin does not get to leverage the support infrastructure over hundreds of titles, and there titles all link to hardware, which, by nature, incurs more 'failure' calls).

 

But, even if we put aside economics, you won't get much sympathy for me.

 

First, you can preview the maps online using the Map Source Viewer before you buy:

 

http://www.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/

 

Second, Garmin has a liberal return policy with its distribution channels, so if you buy from a decent dealer, you should have a reasonable return/exchange policy available to you.

 

Third, you are not bothering to compare apples to apples. MapSource is not a great product, but it is above average for a hardware vendor, and Garmin has continued to lead the pack in this area. Both in terms of getting bugs fixed and data updated, and in terms of adding more features (points of interest, turn by turn info, etc.)

 

I would hope that IdahoMan would at least confirm what he "knows" before spreading the word...

 

-jjf

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Does anybody have any input as to Magellan vs. Garmen maps software, is one line better than the other or are they essentially the same?

 

Will be buying a new Garmen (76S or V) or Magellan (Platinum) GPS soon.

 

quote:
Originally posted by jvavrus2000:

Out of curiosity, what streets are missing? I'd like to know if the Magellan MapSend I have has them.


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First off, I didn't have time to look at the maps and check to make sure EVERY SINGLE STREET IN MY AREA WAS THERE. As I have used it more and more, I am finding more and more errors and things missing. Sure I suppose I could have sat on my computer and gone through my local area street by street, and made sure they were up to date. But you see, Garmin should be responsible for providing acurate and up to date info, and for making it clear how old the info I am buying is.

 

Second, it is more likely the source that Garmin is choosing to use that is to blame, and not the availability of accurate data, as many other programs are out there that DO have up to date and correct maps. I am willing to bet they are choosing the cheapest vendor for map information, of course they aren't passing that savings along, just the lame data they get. So they got what they payed for(they went cheap, they got cheap), but we the consumer, we didn't(we payed premium, but got cheap). Also I am willing to bet that they get money from many of the business' that they list, so that should help defray the cost to consumers.

 

Third, so far as a "Small footprint" goes, they are not smaller than many other mapping programs available for palm devices, in some cases, they are much larger. (Look at how little area you can put in 8 megs if you use Metroguide)

 

Just to list a few streets missing streets for you Jvavrus, look in the Salem area for Hawthorne Ave. Between Mission (Hwy 22) and State Street. This part of Hawthorne is new, it was built around 10 years ago, but compared to the rest, it is new. Look for Kenard Ct. N.W. or Jev Ct. N.W. these streets are both around 7 years old, but not shown. Linwood St. NW between Ammon and Redwood is missing. Also, Orchard View off of Linwood is not there. All these streets are at least four years old.

 

I could go on.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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The solution here should be obvious.

 

What would be best for the customer would be for Garmin and Magellan to license their map format to other companies. Wouldn't it be nice to pay an extra $5.00 to Delorme to get a program that would let you download Delorme maps to your Garmin/Meridian??? Then, you might be able to have a choice of Rand McNally/Delorme/Microsoft maps to load on your GPS. This would be the ideal solution...

 

Somehow, I doubt that it will happen.

 

First, if you are having a problem with your map on you GPS, who do you call? Garmin or Delorme? Each could easily say "Not our problem."

 

Second, everybody who buys a mapping unit will buy a map. This is probably a significant source of income for these companies.

 

The only real advantage to the GPS companies would be not having to mess with making map programs.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

First off, I didn't have time to look at the maps and check to make sure EVERY SINGLE STREET IN MY AREA WAS THERE.


 

You really have no right screaming that Garmin is at fault when you don't exercise due diligence prior to the purchase. I could mention "cavaet emptor" and "a fool and his money...", but it's pointless after you've got yourself all worked up.

 

quote:
But you see, Garmin should be responsible for providing acurate and up to date info, and for making it clear how old the info I am buying is.

 

They do. It's printed right there on the back of the CD case. In the case of MetroGuide USA, it's © 2000, Garmin Corporation.

 

Unless you are suggesting that Garmin go back to all their retail channels and place little stickers on all their unsold products stating "this product is (at least) 3 years old".

 

-E

 

--

N35°32.981 W98°34.631

13914_200.jpg

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I looked at mapsend streets and destinations. and every street you named was located on the map where you said it would be.

 

I can give you a couple screen shot if you would like.

 

Wyatt W

 

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by RAD Dad:

First off, I didn't have time to look at the maps and check to make sure EVERY SINGLE STREET IN MY AREA WAS THERE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

You really have no right screaming that Garmin is at fault when you don't exercise due diligence prior to the purchase. I could mention "cavaet emptor" and "a fool and his money...", but it's pointless after you've got yourself all worked up.

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you see, Garmin should be responsible for providing acurate and up to date info, and for making it clear how old the info I am buying is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"They do. It's printed right there on the back of the CD case. In the case of MetroGuide USA, it's © 2000, Garmin Corporation.

 

Unless you are suggesting that Garmin go back to all their retail channels and place little stickers on all their unsold products stating "this product is (at least) 3 years old"."

 

 

First off, on the back of MY Roads and Recreation CD it says "Copyright (that little symbol, not the word) 2000 GARMIN Corperation

 

NO WHERE ON THE PACKAGING DID IT SAY HOW OLD THE SOURCE WAS. If I went by the packaging I would expect that the info was AT LEAST accurate in 2000 when it was put out. Well all the streets I mentioned have been around for over 5 years. Also as has just been pointed out, the Mapsend maps DO have this information.

Also, when I asked customer service they told me that the Metroguide Product WAS more recent information, well guess what people, THE SAME STUFF IS MISSING IN METRO GUIDE. (unless of course they aren't using the same maps on thier website where you can browse the maps)

 

I did my best to research this information, trying to decide what GPSr, and then trying to decide what CD to buy. I looked at thier website, and I did look at the online maps. I even asked questions and was told that while it (roads & rec)was not as recently updated as Metro Guide, it was updated in 1998. I figured a few years was no big deal. Well 1998 is not too old, but the streets that are missing have been around for over five years, some over 10 years. This is not an issue of buyer beware, it is an issue of Garmin not being forthcoming with information. Sure they may have updated back in 1998, but obviously they didn't use the best information available, probably just used the cheapest.

 

I am a big fan of "Buyer Beware" myself, I think Garmin should have every right to sell this shotty product, heck, they don't even HAVE to make it clear to the buyer that the material is TERRIBLY out of date. But I also have the right to make EVERYONE I CAN aware of my negative experience once I have been bitten by a shotty product, and do everything I can to help make sure that no one makes my mistake and buys from them. Of course, they have the right to put out a shotty product, but if they are smart they will instead put out a high quality product, because people like me don't just complain loudly when something is wrong, I also praise loudly when I feel I get a good deal as well. They bit me this time, I'm telling everyone about it. If they had given me a great product instead, I would be telling everyone that instead. Now they will lose a customer or two, rather than gain one. If this is repeated by other customers, it will be a spendy mistake for them. I am a great unpayed salesman for products I like, I tell everyone about them, but I am even more rabid a detractor when I get bit by a bad product. Of course if Garmin makes good somehow, I'll be sure and give them the due praise for that as well.

 

I research out almost everything I buy, I wish I had looked harder at Garmin, but then again, I shouldn't have had to, the ammount of research I did, checking thier website, asking around to retailers and reading a few reviews should have been enough. I shouldn't have to go street by street to make sure the maps are up to date within the last 10 years. That's just ridiculous.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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I looked at garmin map viewer for hawthone street, as you say it is not their. But I also noticed several streets that are here but are not on mapsend, metroguide still looks better though(on the mapviewer). Maybe some of these streets are no longer their, or magellan jus does not have them.

 

Wyatt W.

 

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

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I always do research prior to speaking. I will find out if the Maps are current for my area. If the streets are not updated for a State Capitol, then I doubt that it would be updated for a city of 30,000. What is the point in buying software that can not be used in your geographical area. I am not one to spread bogus information, But I also expect a Big company or an company to be truthful about the information they are selling. I know from experience that not all software company's truthful about how updated their data is.

With the population increasing in the GeoCaching community, and if it is found that Garmins Maps are outdated, then they could lose money. But then that would also force them to make sure that their information is updated. I think that this forum has uncovered plenty of information as to the validity of their information. As I stated earlier, If my findings are as Rad Dad's findings, then I will post something on our local web site.

 

I do find that it is reassuring to see all of the input from out GeoCaching Community.

 

Till Later

IdahoMa

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I use both Magellan and Garmin products and my GPS units & maps of choice go hands down to Garmin. Some streets are missing in MetroGuide compared to MapSend and vice-versa. In a totally different area, the exact opposite applies. I find Garmin's maps more accurate and complete in my particular area of Los Angeles, CA. There is no perfect map data either from Garmin or Magellan. When purchasing a mapping GPS and maps, you take your chances with this outdated map data from both companies. Garmin at least has the online MapSource viewer so you can see what you'll be getting while Magellan has nothing of the sort. I do think that both companies should supply an accurate date from which the map data was taken, not just the "copyright" date which is meaningless when it comes to being able to tell what date the map data was actually taken from.

 

[This message was edited by SergZak on April 10, 2002 at 05:27 PM.]

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As I said above, I knew that Roads and Rec was out of date, and as pointed out, just about any map is out of date as soon as it is printed as new streets are always being built. My problem with them is that the streets that are missing are all over five years old, some in question are 10 years old or older. THAT IS VERY OUT OF DATE, and UNACCEPTABLE.

 

I have compared these to other maps online, as well as my MS Streets and Trips, and none of the other maps were missing ANY of these streets.

 

Apparently, from a couple responses above, Magellans Mapsend product does have some of these streets, but is missing others that MapSource has. WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THAT? Are the makers too stupid to make sure that the vendors they are getting data from give them the best and most accurate? Or are they just trying to make sure we are in need of the latest version when it comes out so they can keep selling us more CD's as we pursue the goal of having up to date maps???

 

Considering BOTH of these companies have maps that are each missing streets, but not the same streets, I'd say there is something rotten here, and it ain't my kid's diaper pail. (though that does need to be emptied come to think of it icon_wink.gif )

 

We are getting shafted, and I am willing to bet it is no accident.

 

Oh, and Phantom, let me know WHAT Streets are on Mapsource but NOT on Mapsend and I will try and tell you if they are there or not, as I know this city VERY well. (used to be a delivery driver)

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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As I said above, I knew that Roads and Rec was out of date, and as pointed out, just about any map is out of date as soon as it is printed as new streets are always being built. My problem with them is that the streets that are missing are all over five years old, some in question are 10 years old or older. THAT IS VERY OUT OF DATE, and UNACCEPTABLE.

 

I have compared these to other maps online, as well as my MS Streets and Trips, and none of the other maps were missing ANY of these streets.

 

Apparently, from a couple responses above, Magellans Mapsend product does have some of these streets, but is missing others that MapSource has. WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH THAT? Are the makers too stupid to make sure that the vendors they are getting data from give them the best and most accurate? Or are they just trying to make sure we are in need of the latest version when it comes out so they can keep selling us more CD's as we pursue the goal of having up to date maps???

 

Considering BOTH of these companies have maps that are each missing streets, but not the same streets, I'd say there is something rotten here, and it ain't my kid's diaper pail. (though that does need to be emptied come to think of it icon_wink.gif )

 

We are getting shafted, and I am willing to bet it is no accident.

 

Oh, and Phantom, let me know WHAT Streets are on Mapsource but NOT on Mapsend and I will try and tell you if they are there or not, as I know this city VERY well. (used to be a delivery driver)

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

Virtually all street map programs and online mapping services are based on what is called Tiger Line data. It is data generated by the US Census Bureau. My understanding is that the Bureau, in turn, relies on each state to provide certain information. So, data for a particular area can be older than the Tiger date.


 

I was part of the Census Bureau Tiger Team back in the late 1980's (preping for the 1990 census). I can tell you we digitized everything in the US. I don't know how fresh the data we were working from was. It was USGS quads with transparant overlays that had new roads drawn on them. I don't know how the new roads were verified.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Pote:

 

I frankly expect them to be out of date. Heck, every road map is out of date as soon as you get it - paper or electronic.

 

What I'd like to see is some sort of subscription service like Norton Anti-Virus has so that i could get periodic updates. I think that is the best solution.


 

That would be good, but I like the idea of being able to add my own maps better. RadDad has every right to be PO'd by paying top dollar for a shoddy product. Sadly that is the shape of US consumerism today. And it's not going to change unless we, the consumer, stand up and squawk. Unfortunatly our "squawking" must have a negative financial impact on the offending corporation, otherwise we will simply be ignored.

Respectfully,

 

AtP

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Really, before ranting about 'cheapest sources', etc., it would be best to arm oneself with facts.

 

There really is no other source. I seriously doubt that you can find a new US street mapping software package that cannot have its data traced back to Tiger Line data.

 

Mapsend has had sections of the US missing, Garmin has done updates for database errors... It is what it is. Garmin, Magellan, it does not matter. They both sell maps that are pricey bells and whistles, spiffy to have, but not really all that useful.

 

Plenty of people could get mad that a 1:50,000 topo map, displayed on a tiny display is no replacement for a 7.5 min printed quad. But, what do they expect? The display to magically get ten times larger when the CD is installed?

 

It is fine to rant about package X being better - but chest thumping does not make it true. My Atlas is 10 years old, some streets have changed, but it is still useful. Some streets are missing from the line data in Mapsource and Mapsend, but so what?

 

The maps run on the units, and the units are compact, robust, and portable. If you don't want to lug a laptop computer with you, it is worth a few extra bucks and a few limitations.

 

By all means, switch units - if mapping currency sways a significant number of buyers, manufacturers will answer the call...

 

-jjf

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OK, I just got a reply from Garmin again...here is the total of the message I sent and recieved. Included, at top is the message I just sent back as well. After looking into this more, and taking into consideration the reply, I discovered that the City Navigator DOES have all these missing streets that both Roads and Recreation and the supposably recently updated Metro Guide lack. If the problem with the data is the source they get from the vendors, then why is it that City Navigator IS accurate????

 

The following is the original message, followed by Garmin's reply, followed by my reply, followed by the second reply, then concluding with my most recent reply.:

 

-----Original Message-----

From: raduval [sMTP:raduval@laimbrainz.net]

Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 1:13 AM

To: cartography@garmin.com

Subject: Roads and Recreation

 

I recently purchased Roads and Recreation to go with my new Garmin Legend

and am deeply disappointed. Considering the high price of the software

(especially when compared to other map programs, of course ONLY mapsource

programs can be uploaded to my Garmin, so I am stuck with your product if I

want maps on my Legend) I was expecting the maps to be fairly up to date and

have decent features such as auto-routing (I can auto-route with my cheap MS

Streets and Trips 2001 program, of course I can't upload to my Garmin) The

maps in my area are VERY out of date, at least five years. There are entire

neighborhoods missing, neighborhoods that have been around for around five

years some a little more. I live in Salem Oregon, and I know that most of

these streets that are missing can be found on other mapping programs, such

as Streets and Trips. You know if you are going to require us to you ONLY

your software to upload maps to our GPSr's, and you are going to charge a

premium for those programs, you could at least be professional enough to

make sure the software is UP TO DATE and FULL FEATURED so that we the

customer don't feel like we have just been taken. The Garmin GPSr's are

excellent products, I did a lot of research on which GPSr would be the best

for my use, and the Garmin Technology came out on top, too bad your software

doesn't live up to the high caliber of your hardware, what worse, you do

still charge a premium for second class software. Your hardware may be first

class, but your software only has a first class price tag, the quality of

the software isn't even third class. I am VERY frustrated. I hope you will

at least send customers updated maps if and when you ever update the map

information.

 

Sincerely,

 

Richard DuVal

Salem Oregon

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Cartography Mailbox [mailto:Cartography@garmin.com]

Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 4:38 PM

To: 'raduval@laimbrainz.net'

Subject: RE: Roads and Recreation

 

 

Thank you for contacting GARMIN.

 

We apologize that your area is so out of date. We released the most up to date software available to us, for a reasonable price, when we originally release R&R. We do plan to update this software late this year and hope to correct most of the missing information. We can not guarantee that everything will be included, but we do try very hard to make sure it is.

 

Thank you,

 

Brenda Krull

Cartography Administrator

GARMIN International

 

-----Original Message-----

From: raduval@laimbrainz.net [sMTP:raduval@laimbrainz.net]

Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:29 AM

To: cartography@garmin.com

Subject: RE: Roads and Recreation

 

I just checked out your online maps in your mapsource section. You claim that the Metroguide has been recently updated? In my city Salem Oregon (Oregon's CAPITOL) you have a Denny's that appears to be located in the middle of a field, why? Because the roads that have been in use for almost ten years now are NOT on your updated map program. An entire neighborhood that is over five years old in West Salem is missing, my parents street apparently doesn't exist. People pay good money for your products, we expect them to be reasonably up to date. I payed 20 bucks for Microsofts Streets and Trips and all the missing data on YOUR software is there on Microsofts, and it was A LOT CHEAPER. The only problem, I can't upload those maps to my GPSr. You OWE YOUR CUSTOMERS BETTER PRODUCTS THAN THESE, YOU CERTAINLY CHARGE ENOUGH THAT WE SHOULD GET GOOD QUALITY AND UP TO DATE INFORMATION. IF YOU CAN'T DELIVER UP TO DATE SOFTWARE, HOW ABOUT MAKING YOUR HARDWARE COMPATIBLE WITH SOFTWARE THAT IS????

 

I am VERY upset. I payed over $100 dollars for software for my Garmin Legend that is missing A LOT of information for my area, it is VERY out of date. I am EXTREMELY glad I didn't pay even more for the Metroguide, as it is missing the exact same information, although of course the Denny's resteraunt is there, even if the streets you need to get to it are not. OH also, you have highway 22 listed as being Highway 99E, which it is NOT. Good grief, if you are going to put out a shotty product, at least quit charging like it is a top dollar product.

 

-Rich DuVal

Salem Oregon (at least the city is on the map if many streets are not)

 

Dear Mr. DuVal,

 

I'm very sorry to hear about your disappointment in our mapping software. I will not argue with any of your points; especially the idea that after a customer pays $100 plus, he or she should be able to expect accurate, up to date maps. However, I would like to explain a few things that might help you better understand how this could be.

 

In regards to your Roads & Recreation product. This was one of our first MapSource cartography products ever released. It was designed for use with some of our older units with smaller internal memories such as the GPS III plus, and the GPS 12 Map. It was made using the latest government surveyed data, proprietary to GARMIN, at the time of release. Please keep in mind that GARMIN can only reproduce maps from the data provided to us by our data vendors, and any imperfections in their data will be reflected in our maps. We do not collect our own data, rather we purchase it from third party vendors. This brings me to another point.

 

You may ask; "If you know your maps have errors, why do you charge so much for your software?" As stated above, we purchase our map data from third party vendors. This is very expensive for us. What's more, GARMIN pays more for our data than other companies because of the nature of our business. TeleAtlas (the data vendor for MetroGuide USA) knows that their data is going to be sold for use in our GPS units, therefore they demand more for it. They know how much GPS units sell for, and they know that the demand for maps in the GPS is high. Another cost to take into account is that transforming "raw" data into our format for use in a GPS is a very tedious and time consuming technology. One of our main goals as a company is to produce the highest quality product at the cheapest possible cost to our customers. If you were to look around at our competitors for a similar product, you would find this to be true.

 

It would be nice to offer a technology in the future that would update the maps, perhaps through a downloadable file, monthly, or even quarterly. For now, we must wait for our data vendors to collect the data through their methods, and reproduce what we receive. No map produced will ever be "flawless" and completely updated, as roads, businesses, and cities are constantly changing. I can assure you that as the cartography department here at GARMIN grows, so will the accuracy and efficiency of our maps. For example, if you were to look at maps from City Navigator (large metro areas), and compare them to Roads & Recreation, the difference would be incomparable.

 

Please keep in mind we developed our on-line map viewer, and product information on the MapSource packaging to offer our customers as much information about a given product...prior to purchase.

 

Though it is not our policy nor that of most dealers to offer refunds, we will work with customers should they wish it. Please contact your dealer...should they be willing to take the software back from you and offer you a refund or credit, we will establish a return number for them to send the disc back to us...and we will credit them the cost they paid. The choice is theirs as to what they want to do. If they are willing, please contact them and then provide me with the dealer's name and a contact number...if you can offer the name of an individual person to speak with, that can be of tremendous help in expediting it. "Cold calling" often does not get very good results as the person has no idea what the situation is.

 

 

Thank you for your interest in GARMIN GPS. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

Best Regards,

Matt

cartography@garmin.com

 

GARMIN International

1200 E. 151st Street

Olathe, KS 66062

 

Might I suggest then, that you switch vendors. Perhaps look at the vendor Microsoft got the data for thier Streets and Trips 2001, as thier product is not missing ANY of the streets that not only Roads and Recreation is missing, but ALSO your supposably recently updated Metro Guide is missing as well....oh and Microsoft was able to get it to function with GPSr's as well as keep the price low. (mine cost 19.95, plus a $10 rebate for a net cost of $9.95) Of course it doesn't work for uploading to anything but a Pocket PC device, but if you DO have a Pocket PC device, with a GPSr attached, bingo.

 

I have been discussing this issue on Geocaching.com with fellow GPSr users, and have found that Magellan also has similar problems, however they are missing different streets than you are missing....odd, almost enough to make one think the missing streets are there for a reason maybe? To keep us looking to buy the most recently updated CD in search of accurate data for our GPSr? What do you guys do? Leave a few streets out of every map, then a year or two later, come out with a new CD with those streets, but of course they are missing a few different streets, thus you keep us buying and buying? I mean, it seems odd that a business who's business is navigation would not make SURE that they are getting accurate data. Both Magellan AND Garmin can't get it right? But other companies who DON'T have GPSr's CAN get it right?? Odd.

 

Oh, and another odd thing, you blame your vendors, that you can only have as accurate of data as they provide you? Well, I checked and your even MORE expensive City Navigator isn't missing ANY of the streets that both the Metro Guide and Roads and Recreation are missing. Of course with the Metro Guide there is more additional garbage, tantamount to advertising, (resteraunt and business names and locations) that fill it up and mean LESS area I can load into my Legend. ALL I want is maps, if I want to know where a resteraunt is, I'll call 411. If I want to know how to get to that resteraunt, I'd like to be able to turn to the map on my GPSr, but I don't need to have the resteraunt pop up on my screen, just the street.

 

If you can get the maps right for City Navigator, you should be able to get it right for Metro Guide and Roads and Recreation as well. So get it right, or let us know ahead of time that you didn't.

 

And if your goal is to just make Metroguide and Roads and Rec shotty so we will buy City Navigator to get good maps, well then be honest about it, and just get rid of the other products.

 

IF you can get it right in your top dollar product, but it's not right in the lower end products, it stinks of purposeful omition, not simple error.

 

Sincerely,

 

Richard DuVal

Salem Oregon

 

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

 

[This message was edited by RAD Dad on April 10, 2002 at 06:24 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Pote:

OK, so you've identified the problem RD, now what is your solution? You are free to not use any of the products. If you want the latest most up to date maps, you'll have to carry a laptop and a wireless internet link. Do you really expect Garmin to go out and re-survey every road in the US, Europe, etc. every year? What do you think their target market for the product is? 100,000 units? One million units? How much are you willing to pay to have EVERY street in the USA on CD, have all the names spelled right, have marine bouys and NavAids, gas stations, churches, exits, rest stops, parks, airports, schools, etc. etc. Is that worth 500 bucks? Or 29.95 in 3 easy payments?

 

What you are holding in your hand wasn't possible 5 years ago. The whole category is in it's infancy and you are paying to be cutting edge. Remember what the first cell phones cost and how much service was? What about the first PC? Hell, 5,000 dollars bought a PC with 64K of ram and 1 floppy disk. Remember how much Sidekick cost just to turn a PC into a calculator? Now you won't pay $2000 for 512Mb ram, 60GB disk, 1.2Ghz processor, yada yada yada. Those 20 years flew by in a hurry.

 

I'm not defending Garmin. If you don't like it, return it. I'm just suggesting a little perspective here. It franky has 100 bucks worth of value to me. And they have a right to charge a market competative price for their product. You can and will vote with your money. They'll change the product if and when they have to.


 

This IS my solution. TELL PEOPLE. Encourage people not to pay until Garmin PLAYS. As I pointed out in my most recent Rant, CITY Navigator, another MORE EXPENSIVE Garmin product DOES have all these streets that are missing in both Roads and Recreation AS WELL as the "recently updated" Metroguide.

 

So far as Garmin doing a survey, they don't need to, there ARE accurate maps available. MS Streets and Trips, while it has limited functionabiliy for GPSr's (and why shouldn't it, GPSr's AREN'T MS's business, software is) DOES Have more accurate maps than do Garmin (except, as I have now discovered, the City Navigator line, it seems quite up to date)

 

So far as what I have in my hand not being available five years ago, maybe not in this same format, but linking a GPSr to a laptop with maps WAS, moving into mapping GPSr's only makes sense as memory and processors have all shrunken.

 

The fact that you seem happy with such a poor product for such a high price shows the real problem, consumers are too easily lulled into complacency. Use your dollars, your email, your word of mouth, and see to it that the companies provide us with quality products for reasonable prices.

 

The fact that City Navigator IS accurate and IS NOT missing these streets, while the cheaper products aren't accurate and up to date says to me that Garmin is trying to stear consumers to pay more.

 

Problem is, if I get City Navigator, it has all sorts of information I DON'T want, that takes up LOADS of memory, and drasticly cuts down on the amount of area I can load into my Legend. I don't want every business in the area that payed garmin to list them, or however it worked, I just want a good, up to date map I can use on my Legend, that shouldn't be asking too much. They certainly are asking too much though if they expect me to believe that they can get it right in the most expensive product, but the cheaper products have flaws only due to the vendors they get the info from. Well they should use the same vendor they got the City Navigator info from then....oh...I bet they did....then what is the explanation?

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

Really, before ranting about 'cheapest sources', etc., it would be best to arm oneself with facts.

 

There really is no other source. I seriously doubt that you can find a new US street mapping software package that cannot have its data traced back to Tiger Line data.

 

Mapsend has had sections of the US missing, Garmin has done updates for database errors... It is what it is. Garmin, Magellan, it does not matter. They both sell maps that are pricey bells and whistles, spiffy to have, but not really all that useful.

 

Plenty of people could get mad that a 1:50,000 topo map, displayed on a tiny display is no replacement for a 7.5 min printed quad. But, what do they expect? The display to magically get ten times larger when the CD is installed?

 

It is fine to rant about package X being better - but chest thumping does not make it true. My Atlas is 10 years old, some streets have changed, but it is still useful. Some streets are missing from the line data in Mapsource and Mapsend, but so what?

 

The maps run on the units, and the units are compact, robust, and portable. If you don't want to lug a laptop computer with you, it is worth a few extra bucks and a few limitations.

 

By all means, switch units - if mapping currency sways a significant number of buyers, manufacturers will answer the call...

 

-jjf


 

First, fine, your 10 year old atlas is out of date, but still usefull, but what if you went out and bought a NEW hardback atlas, that showed a copyright date of just a year or two ago, but the information in it was no more recent than that 10 year old atlas you already have??? How would you feel?

 

I wouldn't be upset if they told me what I was getting RIGHT UP FRONT, that the data was about 10 years out of date in areas. I just wouldn't have bought it. And actually, I do pack my laptop around in my truck still, it's what I was hoping to get away from when I bought the Garmin CD. Unfortunately my CHEAP MS Streets & Trips is still better and more accurate, by the way, I bought that over a year ago. I can plug in my GPS and it knows right where I am. No problem, I just wish I had known that Garmin wasn't going to provide up to date maps BEFORE I bought them. I thought I was going to at least get maps that were up to date as of 1998, and that was recent enough for me...well they weren't, I was decieved. Sure as I have already said, I could have gone through them street by street to see that everything that should be there was, but really, I think finding out when they were updated (they told me 1998 back before I bought) and looking over the product website should have given me all the info I needed. It didn't. Now I just want to let everyone know.

 

So what is it that has you mocking me? Are you really that happy with getting half-baked products and just being thankful that you aren't stuck in the 1980's tech wise? I'm not. I know what is available, I know what CAN be done, and I expect it to be done. The only reason it isn't is because they know they can still make a bundle without doing it. Why? Because of consumer complacency. Too many are willing to be fleeced. I believe in consumer advocacy. I don't believe in Government interference, (in fact I'm sick of people getting the government involved when the problem could be solved with consumers simply voting with dollars for products and companies) I believe heavily though in consumers making thier voices heard to companies that should be serving the consumers, as without us, the companies would tank.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Oh, and one more thing....

 

IF it is true that there really IS only one real source for these maps, then there MUST be a reason why Garmin is missing streets that OTHERS have, if it is not the source, then it must be Garmin that is leaving them out. Why would they do that? Memory? Perhaps then they should leave out all the busisess locations after all, many of those things change hands every few years anyway. Get the maps right first, then add other features, as it's the MAPS most consumers are probably looking for. If MS can get accurate maps, and other companies can as well, then there is no reason Garmin can't, unless they are purposly leaving out streets, or buying old map data, and calling it recent, either way they are actively trying to decieve.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by Pote:

I don't know man. It seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that you are expecting to get Garmin's most premium chartograpy product - the ultimate maps if you will - to put on a low end GPSr.

 

You are right - moving maps, detailed streets, etc. are available from MS for $20 bucks. Did you ***** to Bill Gates that they ONLY work on his proprietary OS on a PC? maybe you should get Gates to put out a version for your Legend for $20. Try that angle.

 

The cost of a Laptop and the S/W and the h/w to use the MS product is still higher than buying a V and City Select or what ever the top dog product is called.

 

Oh well, lets peacefully agree that we disagree on the consumer value of the products. It's people like you that lead innovation by a desire to build a better mousetrap. Hopefully you will.


 

I don't fault Gates for making his stuff proprietary, I am fully aware you can only use Streets and Trips on either a windows machine, or on a Pocket PC, and as a Palm OS user, that is frustrating, but understandable, he is making software that compliments his other software, and other products that use it, but at least it IS what you think you are getting, accurate and up to date maps.

 

But the fact remains that he (Gates)was able to get the data, and if what Jfitzpat contends is true, that there really is only one source for this mapping data, then HE choose to get the most recent data and market it that way, and make it affordable, while Garmin CHOOSE to use OLD data, market it as NEW, and charge a mint for it.

 

Also, as I pointed out, I don't want most of the information in the City Navigator, I don't want business locations, I don't even care about turn by turn routing, I just want an accurate map, is that really too much to ask??? Should I really have to buy City Navigator, the spendy and larger unit that can use it (the Garmin V), and all that extra memory I would need to have a large region on it at once??? COME ON.

 

If it weren't for all the extra stuff you are NOT able to weed out when uploading the maps, City Navigator would be fine, and I would still be able to load plenty of maps to my 8 megs on my Garmin, but with a database of every address, business name and location, and so on, what should be fairly small files for large areas turn into HUGE files for small areas, and you can't even customize it to only have the facts you want to cut down on size. You can only cut out zones, well I want the zones, just not the other garbage.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Oh, another thing...after reading the details on City Navigator, it is only for the Garmin III....odd, isn't that an older GPSr? Yet it has the most up to date maps available??? Kinda weird.

 

Really really makes me wonder.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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I am going to chime in here. The topic is a little bit different, but I thought it would fit in here. I have been using National Geography’s Topo to help me find caches. It is a ~$100 piece of software that contains the USGA 7.5 maps on about 10 CD-ROMs. It is really as good or better then I could expect from digital media. I am one of the few of out there that believe that by digitizing data we will always be degrading the quality of the data. This is not to say that digital info cannot be good enough, but it is rarely as good as data of the analogue source. Take topo for instance. Compare a bitmapped image from Topo, to the 7.5 min quadrangle that the image was bitmapped from. To the discerning eye there will be no contest. At the same time I can have 10 CD-ROMS and a laptop and have access to an entire map cabinet worth of analogue topo maps, pretty handy, and good enough (most of the time) for me to do what I need to do.

 

Now compare that program to Delorme’s Topo USA, which I recently bought. This is a collection of eight CD-ROMS that have contain the topo maps for the entire USA for ~$60. This software made every bit as pretty maps as on the box, and was praised till the ends of the earth on the Internet. I found it all but useless for land navigation uses. Most of the landmarks that one relies on from the USGS maps are no where to be found, and beyond a rough approximation of topography, and a not so accurate rendering of streets the CDs contained no more info. Now again this contains the whole of the USA on the space that five states are contained on the National Geographic Set. I was very disappointed with Delorme’s software. It was touted all over the net as the end all be all of topo software, and I don’t think that anyone could use it to navigate from my house to the bottom of the driveway. Delorme got their software right back. I point this out because I was disappointed in the previous consumers who wrote reviews for the Topo USA. I don’t know how they could have been so happy with it. Maybe these folks have never seen or used a topo map, so they really can’t know what is expected. I think many consumers don’t realize how much information is lost in the digitization process. Portability, ease, and compactness are gained, but a lot is traded for that.

 

From what I am reading here in this thread the concept of putting maps onto a GPSr is even more useless than I thought it would be. I have yet to buy a GPS and was going to purchase one of the fancy big memory type units, but it looks like I would be better off with a bottom of the line model, and carry a paper copy of the maps I need.

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So what you're saying is that Garmin has provided all of the streets leading up to Wendys restaurants in your general area, but not to Dennys?

 

Makes you wonder whether Dave Thomas was in cahoots with Garmin. Now we'll never know.

 

Seriously. My Dad has been writing letters to Rand McNally each year for the last 20 years informing them that they have yet to correctly locate the college he works at in their yearly Atlas. But he still buys them, because for almost everything else, they're right on.

 

It sure is easy to be a critic, isn't it? For all your love of Microsoft's Streets CD, strange that you haven't ever mentioned that their operating system itself is a internet security nightmare, with all the stability of Rosie O'Donnell doing a handstand.

 

It's all a conspiracy. The truth is out there.

 

And so on.

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First, I have no love for Microsoft. In fact, my point about Microsoft is that they are SIMPLY a software company, maps aren't their business, navigation isn't thier business, yet stil, they have a more accurate product??? Something is wrong there.

 

Second, it has nothing to do with Denny's Wendy's or any other business included in the maps, frankly I would rather they all be gone, they are a waste of memory, I want a map not a business guide. The only point I was making about Denny's is that though they still don't have the streets that are over 10 years old included on the map in the MetroGuide, they do have a Denny's included that is on one of the streets they don't have. SO that Denny's is sitting in the middle of no where, didn't they wonder how that could be? I'm sure that my city is not the only city with these errors and omissions.

 

This is not an issue of not having a business located properly, but rather of not having an up to date MAP, yet marketing it as though it is.

 

The map for my area is not just a little out of date, it is missing streets that have been around for 10 years or more.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

Oh, another thing...after reading the details on City Navigator, it is only for the Garmin III....odd, isn't that an older GPSr? Yet it has the most up to date maps available??? Kinda weird.

 

Really really makes me wonder.


 

City Navigator comes packaged with the GPS III... City Select comes packaged with the GPS V. Both of these map products are not available for sale alone (this is stated at the very bottom of the respective product's webpage). Both programs use your GPS's unit ID along with an unlock code to allow you to use the maps. So it would be kinda hard to use it on your Legend even you you wanted to. You would have to purchase an unlock code using your Legend's unit ID (assuming you could somehow "purchase" the software from somewhere). The maps only work in combination with your GPS's unit ID and the unlock code you purchase. In my case, I have a GPS V with one unlock code. I also have an eMap but I can't use the City Select maps that I've unlocked using my GPS V's unit ID on it because the eMap's unit ID is different than my GPS V's (I've tried...it doesn't work icon_biggrin.gif). I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you *could* use City Select maps on any Garmin mapping GPSR provided that you use the unit ID of the GPSR you want to use the maps on when purchasing the unlock code

 

[This message was edited by SergZak on April 10, 2002 at 09:07 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

Oh, another thing...after reading the details on City Navigator, it is only for the Garmin III....odd, isn't that an older GPSr? Yet it has the most up to date maps available??? Kinda weird.

 

Really really makes me wonder.


 

City Navigator comes packaged with the GPS III... City Select comes packaged with the GPS V. Both of these map products are not available for sale alone (this is stated at the very bottom of the respective product's webpage). Both programs use your GPS's unit ID along with an unlock code to allow you to use the maps. So it would be kinda hard to use it on your Legend even you you wanted to. You would have to purchase an unlock code using your Legend's unit ID (assuming you could somehow "purchase" the software from somewhere). The maps only work in combination with your GPS's unit ID and the unlock code you purchase. In my case, I have a GPS V with one unlock code. I also have an eMap but I can't use the City Select maps that I've unlocked using my GPS V's unit ID on it because the eMap's unit ID is different than my GPS V's (I've tried...it doesn't work icon_biggrin.gif). I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) you *could* use City Select maps on any Garmin mapping GPSR provided that you use the unit ID of the GPSR you want to use the maps on when purchasing the unlock code

 

[This message was edited by SergZak on April 10, 2002 at 09:07 PM.]

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You missed my point Sergzak, they have up to date maps available in those products, which you can only use on ONE reciever, and must buy unlock codes for, but they don't have up to date maps for the other products. This means that the reason the maps are not up to date is NOT because the vendors they get the map data from give them bad data, if it was, all the products would have the same omissions in the maps.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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No doubt that the Garmin maps are far behind the times in my area (Tempe, AZ). Really, I do not live in an airport and there ARE roads here...

 

Obviously, these companies don't want to spend money updating maps.

Could it really, actually be a manual process ?

Or is it all about licensing ?

 

The placement of a © 2000 is totaly misleading, as the content enclosed appears to be more like © 1980. Garmin SHOULD at least be given credit for allowing the online preview capability.

Of course, you have no choice for an alternate source because of the proprietary formats.

 

Its quite clear that map products are figured into the business model for the mapping GPSr's and these companies don't want to give the $ up.

Too bad the consumer loses once again.

 

For me, the Magellan maps were hands down the only choice. The street detail around here is actually quite good. Been meaning to put that vista up on Ebay...

 

Maybe the only answer for us is to crack the map formats and write up some code to translate/add new (or downloaded) info.

 

Any volunteers ?

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

This means that the reason the maps are not up to date is NOT because the vendors they get the map data from give them bad data, if it was, all the products would have the same omissions in the maps.


 

I get your point now. icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming that Garmin has priority levels when it comes to which map data gets updated with this "new data" first. Since City Select/City Navigator are used on the higher end mapping Garmins with route calculation abilities, I'd expect this to get top priority since having missing data would be more "noticed" when using these higher end products. Then comes MetroGuide and then either Topo or Roads & Recreation...this seems to me to be the priority logic they are using when updating maps. Roads and Recreation & Topo are not really geared towards having super accurate streets and data...most of the streets in both are not even named which is good in some ways since it allows you to upload many more map data chunks to the GPSR. The data is basic and accurate *most* of the time and I think it works well for it's supposed intended use which is in a hand-held GPSR for recreational use. Now you can also ask in this case, if there is more map data available since the chunks are smaller, why don't they update the maps to the most recent database? I think it all boils down to the priority issue I mentioned above.

 

[This message was edited by SergZak on April 10, 2002 at 10:58 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

This means that the reason the maps are not up to date is NOT because the vendors they get the map data from give them bad data, if it was, all the products would have the same omissions in the maps.


 

I get your point now. icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming that Garmin has priority levels when it comes to which map data gets updated with this "new data" first. Since City Select/City Navigator are used on the higher end mapping Garmins with route calculation abilities, I'd expect this to get top priority since having missing data would be more "noticed" when using these higher end products. Then comes MetroGuide and then either Topo or Roads & Recreation...this seems to me to be the priority logic they are using when updating maps. Roads and Recreation & Topo are not really geared towards having super accurate streets and data...most of the streets in both are not even named which is good in some ways since it allows you to upload many more map data chunks to the GPSR. The data is basic and accurate *most* of the time and I think it works well for it's supposed intended use which is in a hand-held GPSR for recreational use. Now you can also ask in this case, if there is more map data available since the chunks are smaller, why don't they update the maps to the most recent database? I think it all boils down to the priority issue I mentioned above.

 

[This message was edited by SergZak on April 10, 2002 at 10:58 PM.]

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Originally posted by RAD Dad:

 

Oh, and Phantom, let me know WHAT Streets are on Mapsource but NOT on Mapsend and I will try and tell you if they are there or not, as I know this city VERY well. (used to be a delivery driver)

 

QUOTE]

 

Since I was looking at the map viewer(and have a slow dial up) I did not look at specific street name that the mapsource had that magellan did not. But I checked with USAphoto maps for that area and the roads Garmin has placed are actually there. Most of these roads appeared to be only small raods that only went for a few hundred feet.

 

Wyatt W.

 

The probability of someone watching you is directly proportional to the stupidity of your actions.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

 

But the fact remains that he (Gates)was able to get the data, and if what Jfitzpat contends is true, that there really is only one source for this mapping data, then HE choose to get the most recent data and market it that way, and make it affordable, while Garmin CHOOSE to use OLD data, market it as NEW, and charge a mint for it.


 

You are, of course, well beyond rational thought and into full blown rant. But, on the off chance that someone more composed is reading this...

 

Garmin undoubtedly chose to go through a 3rd party because the Tiger data is inherently out of date by the time it is public. The 3rd party vendors 'value add' to the basic line data. You don't have to say "If". You could take a few minutes off from ranting and investigate the area yourself.

 

Microsoft has several strategic advantages, they have data from the USGS in digital format that is not yet publicly available because of the Terraserver arrangement. They bought two key value add companies in this area and have a border line illegal competitive advantage in their own licensing arrangments (a fee of $10 or $20 per copy to a company like Garmin may very well be <$1 to Microsoft), and they have the clout and resources to be on the short list of pre-release info recipients from the latest census.

 

In fantasy land, everything you purchase would be the optimum product. On earth, the 2000 census Tiger data did not reach many vendors until spring of 2002 (see Tiger.census.gov for the original schedule of fall 2001). By the time it is cleaned up, value added and passed on, it is no wonder that Garmin can't get their product (which takes still more data conversion and cleanup) to market before the last part of this year.

 

And yes, I did poke a little fun at you, but I'll stop. Now that you are over the top, no one will mistake your comments for a well thought out and researched critique, so there is no reason to defend against them.

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

... but they don't have up to date maps for the other products. This means that the reason the maps are not up to date is NOT because the vendors they get the map data from give them bad data, if it was, all the products would have the same omissions in the maps.


 

No, there are differences between the maps because the various products come from different vendors and sources. City Select and City Navigator come from NavTech which also supplies maps to the dedicated automobile navigations systems like NeverLost and those in BMWs, Lexus, MB, etc. MetroGuide-USA comes from TeleAtlas and actually has much better coverage of many smaller towns than does CS & CN - so it's better in some ways and not as good in others. Roads & Rec. comes from the TIGER maps from the US Census Bureau.

 

Having used MetroGuide-USA maps in my eMap for numerous car trips each of several thousand miles, I have to say that I've been very happy with the accuracy and completeness of the product. Have I spotted errors? Sure, but I've spotted at least as many in every other map program I've owned and having the maps directly on the GPS screen was very convenient. My spot checks against MapSend in various areas showed better detail in MetroGuide, but clearly it's possible to find areas where the reverse is true.

In my view it's the best current mapping product for any vendors GPS rcvr. but I certainly expect the quality of maps to continue to improve so today's MGUSA won't remain the best for long.

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quote:
Originally posted by SergZak:

I get your point now. icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming that Garmin has priority levels when it comes to which map data gets updated with this "new data" first.

 


 

Almost certainly not. The currency of the data pretty much tracks the release dates of the products. IE, Garmin uses the most current data available to it with each product released.

 

As to why *all* the products aren't instantly updated, the reasons are most likely logistic and financial. The license fees are probably negotiated per-piece. Negotiating new contracts for every product, dealing with units already in the distribution pipe, and regression testing all older products with newer data (the newest mapping products drop some older GPSr's from their 'supported' list - it may not even be possible to fit the latest data on the lowest common denominator units supported on older titles) would be a financial, man power, and logistical nightmare. Probably beyond Garmin's financial and manpower capacity.

 

What is bizarre is that no one blinks at programs that manage waypoints and grab images from Terraserver selling for $50-$80 dollars. But a program that manages waypoints and provides topographical maps for the entire US, viewable on the GPSr, that sells for $100 must be the result of some Machiavellian plot.

 

*Gasp*, discrepencies could not possibly have anything to do with Garmin still being a relatively small player selling low margin consumer hardware and Microsoft being one of the richest companies on the planet and Bill Gates being (arguably) the richest man in the world...

 

Of course it is an even playing field. The rich and powerful never have extra clout and economic advantages... icon_wink.gif The huge lawsuits surrounding Microsoft are all part of Garmin's plot, and, of course, Garmin's high customer satisfaction ratings are the result of a conspiracy.

 

But, I think I will take a page from Rad Dad's book. The next time I blow a hundred bucks on tickets and parking for a three hour baseball game, I'm going to demand 2 foul balls and my desired outcome. And, of course, for $50 for food, I'll expect excellent cuisine. And it goes without saying that the gift shop items will have a craftmanship to match their lofty price...

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by SergZak:

I get your point now. icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming that Garmin has priority levels when it comes to which map data gets updated with this "new data" first.

 


 

Almost certainly not. The currency of the data pretty much tracks the release dates of the products. IE, Garmin uses the most current data available to it with each product released.

 

As to why *all* the products aren't instantly updated, the reasons are most likely logistic and financial. The license fees are probably negotiated per-piece. Negotiating new contracts for every product, dealing with units already in the distribution pipe, and regression testing all older products with newer data (the newest mapping products drop some older GPSr's from their 'supported' list - it may not even be possible to fit the latest data on the lowest common denominator units supported on older titles) would be a financial, man power, and logistical nightmare. Probably beyond Garmin's financial and manpower capacity.

 

What is bizarre is that no one blinks at programs that manage waypoints and grab images from Terraserver selling for $50-$80 dollars. But a program that manages waypoints and provides topographical maps for the entire US, viewable on the GPSr, that sells for $100 must be the result of some Machiavellian plot.

 

*Gasp*, discrepencies could not possibly have anything to do with Garmin still being a relatively small player selling low margin consumer hardware and Microsoft being one of the richest companies on the planet and Bill Gates being (arguably) the richest man in the world...

 

Of course it is an even playing field. The rich and powerful never have extra clout and economic advantages... icon_wink.gif The huge lawsuits surrounding Microsoft are all part of Garmin's plot, and, of course, Garmin's high customer satisfaction ratings are the result of a conspiracy.

 

But, I think I will take a page from Rad Dad's book. The next time I blow a hundred bucks on tickets and parking for a three hour baseball game, I'm going to demand 2 foul balls and my desired outcome. And, of course, for $50 for food, I'll expect excellent cuisine. And it goes without saying that the gift shop items will have a craftmanship to match their lofty price...

 

-jjf

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quote:
Originally posted by jfitzpat:

...The next time I blow a hundred bucks on tickets and parking for a three hour baseball game, I'm going to demand 2 foul balls and my desired outcome. And, of course, for $50 for food, I'll expect excellent cuisine. And it goes without saying that the gift shop items will have a craftmanship to match their lofty price...

 

-jjf


 

This might put a few things in perspective. I was up in Foxwoods a local Indian gambling establishment in Connecticut. Not only does the house "take" make it awful hard to walk out a winner, but the boutique stores there were selling Garmin Vistas for $530.00 and Legends for $425.00!! That's about 50% higher the the MSRP! I didn't ask about Topo prices but one can only guess. I went back to the tables where I continued to lose but figured it was cheaper than shopping! Welcome to Connecticut.

 

Another thing no one mentioned is that acuracy of maps as to accurate placement of coordinates varies a lot. For example, if you set a waypoint at an intersection on Mapsourse Street and Recreation, you will be 80-200 away from that same intersection as shown on Topo. I suspect Topo is more accurate as to placement so you'd probably want to move the waypoint to the Topo intersection since it's based on the 100000 scale topo. But I imagine a similar thing will happen as you move from third party map to third party map as well. Cartographers have been trying to get it right since maps have been made so this is to be expected.

 

Alan

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Opening Screen On my Etrex:

Warning

All data is presented for reference only.

You assume total responsibility and risk

associated with using this device.

 

I have used GPS units for years, and they are pretty good at getting me around.

 

For better navigation you will need a higher end GPS unit for traveling. My GPS V is very good in SE Michigan, but not in Lakeland Florida. You will need at least the Garmin StreetPilot III, for navigating, if you were a traveling salesman.

 

As far as mapping goes, I find that the Garmin Mapping is much better than Street Atlas USA. I have had a few Versions of Street Atlas, including The Deluxe one, and find that the streets are poorly rendered in the Detroit Area. For years the Street Atlas products were missing I-696 up in Oakland County, which is Just North and west of Detroit. There are also many errors in Street Atlas, when you Zoom way in, Like on the Freeway Ramps and etc.

 

IN A perfect world:

*Each County in the US would have all the land data, that would be submitted to it's respective State.

*Each State would submit it's Land data to Washington DC(USGS).

*Then that data would be available to GPS manufactures, that would then have it on the internet as a subscription service, for you to download into your GPS.

 

OR:

 

You would have to log onto each County's Website and download it's mapdata to your computer, then assemble all the maps that can be loaded onto your Laptop that is connected to a GPS in the window of your car.

__________________________________________________________________

We humans:

Even with our technology, we may never get back to the Moon (kinda sad).

 

I might have been able to rent a room at the Lunar Holiday Inn, before going to Mars to work at a colony there.

 

5_Rubik.gifMy home page about GPS units and information

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"Hey Rad Dad,

Go suck an egg eh!!!!

 

Boz"

 

As long as it is hard boiled, with a little salt...ok.

 

I just want SOMEONE to tell me WHY it is perfectly ok for them to present map data as being recently updated (ie. the Metroguide, it's still missing streets over 10 years old)

 

I'm not talking errors here, misspellings and the like, I'm talking clearly old data being labled as recent.

 

Even the Roads and Recreation is presented as being from 1996 at the oldest, while it too is missing streets over 10 years old.

 

All I want is honesty out of these people. Let the consumer know UP FRONT that the data is old.

 

Put a 2000 copyright on a package and it makes it appear as though it is NEW, not OLD.

 

So far as a casino that charges too much, or expensive baseball tickets, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GETTING. Now, if they implied that you would see a guaranteed win by your favorite team, and you would be entitled to catch two foul balls, and that didn't happen, then YES you would have a point. But they don't and you don't. If the Casino advertised that everyone comes away a winner, and you always lost, you would have a point, they don't so you don't. So far as them charging way too much for things in the gift shop, if they said that the price they had was lower than everyone elses, well then you might have a point, or if you could ONLY buy those things from that shop, you MIGHT have a point. They don't, you can buy elsewhere, and there is no valid point to be made there either.

 

The issue here is about being fair and upfront with the customers, and Garmin is not. There is not indication that these maps are as out of date as they are anywhere on the packaging, or the website.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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Garmin's most recent reply. I like the way this guy Matt handles himself.

 

Mr. Duval,

 

The reason you're seeing similar streets in our City Navigator product and Microsoft Streets & Trips is simple. It's the same data. I can certainly assure you that neither we nor our data vendors left out any data on purpose. City Navigator was made using data from NavTech which is the premier supplier of large city road data. It is not sold stand alone but rather with our Street Pilot III automotive unit, due to it's automatic routing functions. NavTech also happens to be our most recent vendor, and in all likelihood the vendor for which most of our future road mapping products will be made from. MetroGuide was made using a different data vendor. There is no conspiracy going on here I promise you that. It's simply a matter of trial & error...........and growth. The cartography department is both the youngest, and fastest growing department within GARMIN. And in response to your comment of not wanting business listings or addressees; I will say that our customers have a very wide range of needs, wants and financial capabilities, and we will continue to produce products to meet that range. For example if you were on a trip cross country, it would be very helpful to find out where the nearest service station is after flattening a tire..........Or if you knew the address to a place, but had no clue how to get there. Those are just two examples of how these features could be very helpful.

 

Again I'm sorry you are disappointed in our products. We strive to do whatever we can to keep our customers satisfied. The offer still stands on a refund if you're interested.

 

Thank you for your interest in GARMIN GPS. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

 

Best Regards,

Matt

cartography@garmin.com

 

Of course the only problem with the refund issue is that the place I bought my software from does not accept returns on opened software. I don't know of any place that does accept returns of software that has been opened, and considering how easy it is to copy software, I can understand that.

 

ummmm....not sure what to say here....so ummm, well errrr, uhhhh, well I guess that's it.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

Of course the only problem with the refund issue is that the place I bought my software from does not accept returns on opened software. I don't know of any place that does accept returns of software that has been opened, and considering how easy it is to copy software, I can understand that.


 

But you have a contact and a written assurance that Garmin will issue an RMA, no questions asked. It seems that there would only be a problem if the dealer is not authorized (ex. gray market), or really sleazy.

 

At the very least, one would expect store credit. That way, the dealer is only potentially out a shift in markup between the software and your subsequent purchase.

 

If a dealer won't exchange for store credit when you have a RMA committment from Garmin in hand, it seems that *they* are the ones you should be complaining about here, not Garmin.

 

Garmin seemed ready to do whatever it takes to give you satisfaction in initial email exchanges. Many companys stick with TSOY for low margin consumer goods.

 

-jjf

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I agree, it's frustrating not to have roads in your area appear on your mapsource maps. I spent quite a bit of time examining all the MapSource sets after I got my GPSV and it drove me crazy. One set would show the drainage ditch behind my office building but not the road which ran in front. Another set would show the rail road track in the area but not the lake across the road. It seemed like a conspiracy. Each map set seemed to introduce features not covered by the others while taking away features the others had.

 

I finally came to the conclusion that its really a matter of memory. Only so much detail can be crunched into the maps -- which is why there are so many different map sets for MapSource i suppose.

 

For example I've found MapSource shows several local streams/creeks accurately on my GPSV whereas Mapsource TOPOS doesn't even show them.

 

I have Topos, Roads and Recreation, City Select and Metro Guide and have spent quite a bit of time comparing each as far as my local area. Each of them show something that the other maps don't. So to me, it appears choices have been made. In one set, water features have been diminished so that points of interest could be added. In another rail ways aren't deemed important but lakes and shorelines are.

 

Overall I've found Metro Guides to be the most useful unless I'm in a large metropolitan area (like Chicago) then I prefer City Select.

 

I would like to see Garmin come out with States. Rather than crunching the entire U.S. onto one CD which has limited detail, I'd prefer to have, say the state of Illinois with mapdata with ALL the detail from each mapset combined.

 

Perhaps this is too much for the current generation of GPS units to handle. But I'd gladly give up POI data (Do I really need to know there's a Tire Store on the intersection near my house?) just to have all the water way and road data in the area I'm cachehunting in.

 

Jolly R. Blackburn

http://img.Groundspeak.com/user/26453_300.jpg

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Oh please let him rant for another week about his trials and tribulations getting a refund for open software! Please, please, please...

 

Seriously, it's an imperfect world. Sometimes it works for you (Bank Error in Your Favor, collect $200), and sometimes it doesn't (Property Assessment. For each house... For each hotel...)

 

If, monopolisitcally, banks never screwed up, properties were assessed correctly on the first try, then what fun would it be to play.

 

You win some, you lose some. Life is just like Monopoly. Be a good sport, and you might enjoy it.

 

By the way, I call the top hat.

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quote:
Originally posted by RAD Dad:

I just want SOMEONE to tell me WHY it is perfectly ok for them to present map data as being recently updated (ie. the Metroguide, it's still missing streets over 10 years old).


 

The MetroGuide-USA map data comes from TeleAtlas and the copyright date reflects when they supplied the data to Garmin. There is no claim made that their data is 100% complete or accurate, nor is there such a claim with any mapping program data that I've seen.

 

Unlike almost every other supplier of mapping software, Garmin lets you examine the detail and completeness of their maps with their MapViewer. I looked at various areas before deciding to buy MetroGuide and even identified a number of clear errors using the MapViewer - but overall I decided it was the best product available and I have not been disappointed. I wish other map suppliers made such a preview feature available.

 

Have you checked with your retailer on the possibility of a refund given Garmin's willingness to issue an RMA? Sure the usual policy on software is against refunds, but Garmin's offer sounds very reasonable and I'd hope your retailer would agree.

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Ok, I think there has been some major misunderstading in this thread, as in a total lack of communication, which has prompted some (IMHO) uncalled for sarcastic replies.

 

So I think I can explain why RAD Dad is not a happy camper. You see, not all of us make > $60k a year. In fact, to some of us, $100 US is alot of money. I would be displeased to spend $100 and find that I had purchased part of a product. I can go to MapsCo and buy an extremely detailed map for under $30, and it won't be missing any roads that existed as of the publication of said map. Therefore, I would expect that if I paid over 3 times that much I would receive a map of, at the very least, comparable quality. I don't feel that this is an unreasonable expectation, does anyone else?

Respectfully,

 

AtP

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