Yet another USGS map site...

December 1, 2001

Yes, I know, web sites like TopoZone.com and Terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com will let you look at USGS Image and Topo maps, but I got frustrated trying to make images for our "adventure database" (see an earlier post).

The sites I know about either don't let you grab the whole map as one image, or don't give you much flexibility in placing markers (or worse, the markers move around!). So, I whipped together a little server side thingy. You can build photo image and topo maps directly from your GPS waypoints (www.lostoutdoors.com/waypoint.html), but that requires you download an activeX control (to access the serial port).

If you just want to punch in coordinates and get a map, you can go to http://www.lostoutdoors.com/newmap.html. (Or pick "Map Maker" from the main page). That is all server side and should work with almost any browser.

It is still a little buggy, especially at some tricky conversions, but I spot checked it with some caches here, and a lot of airports from http://www.airnav.com.

Let me know what you think. I'd espcially be interested in how accurately it places your own caches (since you'll have some idea if the topo, or photo is right!) One thing, if you do save the maps off to disk, please leave the USGS logo on them intact.

I was going to do a track->map utility (tracks direct from my GPS), since I want to show some faint climber trails on USGS image maps, but if something like that is already on the web, please let me know. I'd rather use it than write it!

-jjf

P.S. I said it was buggy! Please do not trust your outdoor navigational needs to my hastily written projection conversion routines!

[This message has been edited by jfitzpat (edited 03 December 2001).]

December 2, 2001

ge from MapQuest, and stitching them together with Adobe Photoshop. Placing markers on an image was a matter of calculation and judgement.

Your mapmaker is many times easier I get large images with fewer operations, and every waypoint I marked showed up in exactly the right place.

The only criticism I can offer is that the USGS images are pretty old -- a lot of newer construction doesn't show up in my area. MapQuest has newer imagery, at least for around here (S.E. Michigan). Any chance you could find a newer image database to work with?

Lee.

December 2, 2001

FWIW, I used the USGS NAPP images, which can be fairly old (the one over my house is 7 years old). I'm not sure where all the 'GlobalXplorer' images are from (MapQuest). I went to their site, but didn't write (yet) for more info.

I'm glad your waypoints plotted accurately. And thanks for the feedback.

-jjf

December 3, 2001

I just tried the URL and got the reply" File not found". Is it still available?

December 3, 2001

Yes, the forum software automatically highlighted the hyperlink, but it included the period at the end of the sentence. That is, the site has been up, but the link in the message is bad.

I just edited it, but who knows if I got it right...

Sorry,

-jjf

December 3, 2001

Great mapping program!

Call me lazy but is there anyway you can allow input fields for the WGS-84 format like we have in Geocaching.com? I have to run the coordinates thru an interim conversion program before I can plug them into your input fieldss.

Otherwise, very cool!

December 3, 2001

Actually, I do expect the data to be WGS-84, at least that is how I calculate the projections. I think you mean degrees, minutes, factional minutes in decimal (d m.mm).

As time permits, I'd like to allow input in all the common formats: d.dd, d m s, d m s.ss, d m.mm, and UTM.

I thought about allowing conversion from other projection systems besides WGS-84, but thought that would be too confusing for most users.

Thanks for the input.

-jjf

December 3, 2001

Good job! I only placed the waypoint for my parents house and it was right on top of the house.

The point name cannot have any spaces though. I tried to name it Towne House and it didn't generate the image. If I named the point TowneHouse it created the image fine.

December 3, 2001

No luck. The image space comes back blank, with an "x" in a square in the upper left corner. Must be my browser. I'm using AOL 7.0 and whatever browser they have modified for their own use. Any suggestions?

December 3, 2001

It worked perfect! Put the mark right where I was standing when I recorded the coordinates. Very cool!!

December 3, 2001

Trying to catch all:

Spaces are allowed (or should be!), The markers are passed as part of the URL and it could be a url encoding I don't account for (I accept either a space (' ') or a '%20'). If you send me email with: Info about what browser/version you are using and a copy of the "Address" you are getting when you view the map (ex. "http://www.lostoutdoors.com/map.php?blah blah blah") I'll take a look.

For the person with the X - two possibilites come to mind, first, the actual image source is a machine in my office that does not have an internet 'name'. It is referenced directly by IP (a string of numbers). AOL may block this type of access, I don't know. Second, the graphics can get big ("Huge" can easily be over a meg). I have heard people complain about AOLs inability to handle large files in the past. I'll ask someone at my office to give it a try using their AOL account and see what I can find out. If you like, you can email me the coordinates that you are using and I'll try to exactly replicate.

Thanks all for your feedback and taking time to play with such an early prototype.

-jjf

December 4, 2001

This is fixed, Netscape 4.x is a lot pickier about the URLs submitted for imagery than newer browsers. I know fully URL encode the string.

Thanks again for all your mail and comments.

-jjf

December 6, 2001

OK - You have written (some of you repeatedly!) so I made some changes to the site:

Change #1: You can enter map/marker coordinates in degrees ("34.123"), degrees and minutes ("34 12.23"), or degrees minutes and seconds ("34 12 16.3"). N and W are assumed since the maps are from USGS data.

Change #2: You can click on the map to get coordinates (it automatically fills in Lat and Long for the next marker). IE, you click on the image to get coordinates, you still have to click on "Add Marker" to put a dot on the map.

Change #3: You can click a hyperlink near the top of the page and download all the markers currently on the map as waypoints directly to your GPS.

So, in theory, you can enter the cache location, take a good look at the image and/or topo, click on some likely spots on the trail for waypoints, download all the coordinates to your GPS unit, print a copy to take with you, and email the image to a friend so he/she can meet you...

Whew!

Again, It is under construction and I have a day job, so be-forewarned! It is undoubtedly buggy.

But Enjoy.

-jjf

December 6, 2001

Your website is really cool! Now I realize I'm being nit picky but these might be features that could be added when you have nothing better to do.

I'd like to be able to choose the map style, size, and zoom from the first page. Granted first time users wouldn't know what the different options would give them but, uh... so what? Screw em! I'd suggest making additional drop down menus with map style, size, and zoom below where you enter the lat/long. It would save a few steps once you know what type you like.

You might also make one of the map sizes proportional to an 8x11 sheet of paper.

A print button would also be nice. It would eliminate having to save the map and printing from another program.

Oh yeah, while I'm asking, I'd like driving directions, links to the current weather for the map area, and markers for every Wendy's within 10 miles of the cache. I don't think that is too much to ask.

December 7, 2001

Hmmm. Choose more settings before first map is drawn. OK, I'll try to squeeze this in on my lunch break today.

Print/8.5x11, I'll have to think about it (not that complicated, but it interferes with another idea I've been toying with). How about this as a stop gap? I'll put in a button that throws up the current map/image on a page with a white background, no foo-foo graphics, and a table of the markers and their coordinates below it? (IE, more suitable for printing from a browser). I'll also deliver that map at a higher JPEG quality level.

Again, I could probably throw that up over lunch.

Now, as for the others - I'll make you a deal:

Right now, when you pull up a cache on Geocaching.com, and click on the link for a topo map, the marker is off by about a football field. The marker also moves around when you zoom.

When you click on an aerial view, the map is generally not centered on the cache (IE, if you zoom in, you are as much as a mile away), with no marker to guide you.

When these problems get fixed, I'll give you Wendy's markers.

If you can get someone with a Meridian Gold to try the Waypoint Exchange on the website so I can make sure it works with newer Magellan units, I'll give you live weather reports on the Wendy's. (I can't talk any of my friends into buying one just so I can test - cheapskates!)

I draw the line at driving directions - though I might consider train and bus schedules...

-jjf

December 7, 2001

Hmmm. Choose more settings before first map is drawn. OK, I'll try to squeeze this in on my lunch break today.

Print/8.5x11, I'll have to think about it (not that complicated, but it interferes with another idea I've been toying with). How about this as a stop gap? I'll put in a button that throws up the current map/image on a page with a white background, no foo-foo graphics, and a table of the markers and their coordinates below it? (IE, more suitable for printing from a browser). I'll also deliver that map at a higher JPEG quality level.

Again, I could probably throw that up over lunch.

Now, as for the others - I'll make you a deal:

Right now, when you pull up a cache on Geocaching.com, and click on the link for a topo map, the marker is off by about a football field. The marker also moves around when you zoom.

When you click on an aerial view, the map is generally not centered on the cache (IE, if you zoom in, you are as much as a mile away), with no marker to guide you.

When these problems get fixed, I'll give you Wendy's markers.

If you can get someone with a Meridian Gold to try the Waypoint Exchange on the website so I can make sure it works with newer Magellan units, I'll give you live weather reports on the Wendy's. (I can't talk any of my friends into buying one just so I can test - cheapskates!)

I draw the line at driving directions - though I might consider train and bus schedules...

-jjf

December 7, 2001

OK, I ate my veggie fried rice at the keyboard - you can now enter Style, Size, and Zoom before the first map is generated. You can also click for a more printer friendly page (just the image and a table of the markers on a white background). The printer view JPEG image also uses a higher quality setting when compressed.

Now, Please, someone with a Merdian Gold help me out!

December 7, 2001

OK, I ate my veggie fried rice at the keyboard - you can now enter Style, Size, and Zoom before the first map is generated. You can also click for a more printer friendly page (just the image and a table of the markers on a white background). The printer view JPEG image also uses a higher quality setting when compressed.

Now, Please, someone with a Merdian Gold help me out!

December 7, 2001

Hey!

Your program is absolutly *stunning*!

I would just like to know what language(s) you used to program it in (Just because I am so interested in GPS, and programming )

Thanks for your great app

DigitalFudge

December 7, 2001

Hey!

Your program is absolutly *stunning*!

I would just like to know what language(s) you used to program it in (Just because I am so interested in GPS, and programming )

Thanks for your great app

DigitalFudge

December 7, 2001

ked this down to not-so-hot built in sin, cos, and tan functions in PHP. I could do a workaround, but I haven't had time.

Don't know if that answers your question. Feel free to email me directly if you have specific programming questions. (Actually, you can ask all the programmers at eTree a question by writing to AskElvis@etree.com !)

-jjf

December 7, 2001

Excellent work! Thanks for the changes. Although in my area (Chicago) the differences in the marker placement compared to Topo Zone seems to be very minor. I suppose different latitudes and longitudes may create variances.

But a few other suggestions now that I've played around a bit.

On the "stop gap" printable option I'd suggest not having the marker's title on the map or make the print's background transparent (if that's possible). Otherwise the title potentially obscures important terrain features. You might also tweak the dimensions of the Big map. I'd suggest make it 1.5" wider and 2" longer. This way you can fill more of the page with usable map (at the expense of allowing only one or two lines of marker data though). I do realize you might have bigger and better plans for the final print version that would render my suggestions moot.

Do the 1m, 2m, 4m, and 8m zooms correspond to specific scales? Such as 1:25,000 or 1:100,000. If not, creating zooms to do so would be another suggestion (again, if possible). That way we could use the appropriate scales on our compasses.

My last suggestion (for now) is to heavily lobby Jeremy to add image and topo links to your website on each Geocache details page.

December 8, 2001

First a note: An earlier post of mine does not read well - for the record, I think Geocaching.com is an extremely well done, fun site. I think TopoZone.com is a very useful site, and I think Terraserver is pretty nifty.

I wasn't trying to bag on good sites, I was just joking that other things aren't perfect. A problem I have with email is my wry humor does not always carry well...

Now, taking the suggestions one at a time, originally, I did print the marker text transparently. Although I tried a lot of things, XOR drawing, black text on white shadow, etc., the markers were always hard to read - so I went back to basics.

In the future, I will try to add more sophisticated print page options (custom sizes, supress marker names, etc.) However, in the mean time, you could leave the marker names blank. An empty name does not print a white rectangle on the map. If you make each marker a different color, you will still get a reasonable legend on the print page, and you could just write the names in after you print (crude, I know, but... )

Scale is a good question. The maps generated are (to a fairly accurate degree), just what the page says x square meters per pixel. You can literally copy the generated image to a paint program (Windows PAINT (at least Win98 and newer) will open JPEG files) and measure distances.

Just select the line tool, click on a point and draw a line to another point. Most programs (like Paint) will show the X and Y displacement while the line is drawn. If you are drawing from a known point (like a marker) you could multiply this displacement by the current zoom (1, 2, 4, or 8), add or subtract it (depending on direction) from the UTM N and E of the known point and get a UTM datum (coordinate) for the point drawn to.

Or, if you are more willing to calculate, just multiply the displacements by zoom and use them as the sides of a right triangle, then calculate the straight line distance between the two points in meters. I actually have a little tool to do this - just draw a series of straight lines on the image, and get the total distance in meters and feet. I just haven't decided on how to deploy it on the web (I'm trying to avoid utilities you have to download, and I'm trying to keep things compatible with as many browsers as possible). I also hadn't put it at a high priority.

But I digress - the reason I cannot give a scale (1:24000, 1:25000, etc.) is that I don't know it! Seriously, I have almost no control over how big the image is physically on the screen or the printed page. Screens are different sizes and users have different display resolution settings. Likewise, most browsers stretch and fudge when they print, as do many printers, depending upon their settings.

If you do print the image an exact size on paper, it is possible to calculate the scale, but it would generally be quite a bit lower than a traditional 1:24000 or 1:25000 scale (600 pixels can be as little as 600 meters, which is about 23,600 inches).

Personally, I'd suggest using the images in conjunction with a map, either pre-printed, or printed using a mapping package, like National Geographic's.

However, I will add a small miles/meters scale to both pages, so you can at least use your compass markings as a ruler to measure approximate distances from printouts.

I may not get to that until next week. This weekend, I'm getting outdoors! And Monday and Tuesday I'll be on the east coast for a business trip.

Thanks again for the feedback.

-jjf

December 8, 2001