Why are AL Geoarts allowed?

[+Nite*Owls]

I 100% believe ALs should be counted separately from geocache finds. They are two different games and they ridiculously balloon the find numbers. (Except for the bonus caches, those are all good.) However aside from that, I don't understand why AL Geoarts are allowed. I've recently heard of a bunch of ALs being placed at rest stops, where all you have to do is sit in your car and answer multiple-choice questions, and you get a "find" for every answer you submit. Now that is SUPER ballooning the numbers! At this point why even count geocache finds. Half the "finds" in this hobby/game aren't even actual geocaches anymore. They may as well join and add Munzees at this point. Now I look at someone who has say 10,000 finds, and I have to think that their "real" number is actually 5,000. The find numbers used to be interesting and have meaning, now they are so skewed it's a joke. Are they trying to ruin the real game of geocaching? I mean what next, sit on your couch and burp, and get awarded 50 finds lol. I just don't get it.

[+lee737]

I agree.... something should be done about this sort of 'AL' especially. They certainly aren't geocaches, they have morphed into something that isn't even an AL! 

[+Max and 99]

I don't mind the AL geoarts. I mind ALs that are set up so there's nothing on site for you to look at and answer a question about.

[Keystone]

I moved this thread from the General Geocaching Topics forum. 

[+Sottiwotti]

7 hours ago, Nite*Owls said:

Now I look at someone who has say 10,000 finds, and I have to think that their "real" number is actually 5,000

Yes, that bothers me as well. Some people don't play for fun, but for the numbers.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Amen!

[+JL_HSTRE]

Every airport has one or more AL as well. Because geocachers need something to do while waiting for their flight and it has to involve bumping their Find count. 

 

The AL locations are frequently on the tarmac, but since the geofencing can be a quarter mile or more it doesn't matter.

[+Vooruit!]

Why would anyone be bothered by someone else's numbers?

[+baer2006]

7 hours ago, Vooruit! said:

Why would anyone be bothered by someone else's numbers?

This is completely beside the point of this thread's title.

 

On one hand, GS has an unambiguous guideline for ALs:

Quote

Make sure all Locations

• Require players to physically visit Adventure Locations.

(Emphasis by me)

And this cannot only refer the geofencing, because that is enforced by the Lab Builder anyway, and therefore unnecessary to put into a guideline.

 

On the other hand, GS obviously accepts the countless "AL Geoarts", where it is in most cases blatantly obvious, that the AL questions have nothing to do at all with anything located at the AL locations.

 

GS should either delete the guideline, or do something about the AL geoarts inflation.

[+Mausebiber]

11 hours ago, baer2006 said:

This is completely beside the point of this thread's title.

 

Yes title, but the TO is talking about numbers of finds, see below:

 

Quote

I've recently heard of a bunch of ALs being placed at rest stops, where all you have to do is sit in your car and answer multiple-choice questions, and you get a "find" for every answer you submit. Now that is SUPER ballooning the numbers! At this point why even count geocache finds. Half the "finds" in this hobby/game aren't even actual geocaches anymore. They may as well join and add Munzees at this point. Now I look at someone who has say 10,000 finds, and I have to think that their "real" number is actually 5,000. The find numbers used to be interesting and have meaning, now they are so skewed it's a joke. Are they trying to ruin the real game of geocaching? I mean what next, sit on your couch and burp, and get awarded 50 finds lol

 

[+Mausebiber]

This log is 14 years old but still very true

 

[+baer2006]

39 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

This log is 14 years old but still very true

 

Actually, there is a "leaderboard" now - literally!

 

Also, ever since Challenges have been a thing, a common definition of what is a "find" makes sense. Otherwise, the Challenges are pointless (some people think they are ), because you could then just fabricate the finds needed to fulfill them according to their own "find definition" (there are also people who do this ).

[+HHL]

1 hour ago, baer2006 said:

Otherwise, the Challenges are pointless

 

A challenge serves your own purpose, not a comparison with others. Points are meaningless that way..

Hans

[+JL_HSTRE]

22 hours ago, Vooruit! said:

Why would anyone be bothered by someone else's numbers?

 

Why would you want to associate with something, especially a hobby (i.e. something you're doing voluntarily), where most of the people involved don't care about integrity?

 

Edited April 24 by JL_HSTRE

[+Mausebiber]

Quote

Actually, there is a "leaderboard" now - literally!

 

Yes, but just for you and your friends.  2 million Geocacher are NOT part of your leaderboard, in other words, there is no leaderboard for the community.

[+Mausebiber]

5 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

Why would you want to associate with something, especially a hobby (i.e. something you're doing voluntarily), where most of the people involved don't care about integrity?

 

My 5 cent:  Go out geocaching and leave the other people alone.  You are talking about most of the people, quite interesting what kind of people you know.  How about the other 99% you don't know?

[+JL_HSTRE]

20 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

You are talking about most of the people, quite interesting what kind of people you know.  How about the other 99% you don't know?

 

AL geoart and similar abuses are worldwide problems.

[+thebruce0]

This is such an icky subject.

In a hobby where the goal is enjoyment, people will always bicker about how strict the rules should be.

 

If someone's having fun, then what does it matter?

Then let's get rid of all the rules, why even have any?

 

The argument always go to either extreme. There are either rules, and so someone enjoyment will be thwarted by the 'spirit' of the game, or enjoyment is king and if it doesn't explicitly and directly hurt someone else then it should be just fine.

 

A game, a structure, has definitions. Someone will always "enjoy" pushing boundaries in a way that challenges rules, so should that be allowed for the sake of their enjoyment? Or should rules be upheld stringently at risk of being a party pooper, as it were, for the sake of the game's structure and integrity being what it says it is?

 

I hate "people play the game their own way" - well no, people must play the game the way the game is defined to be played. So the question is how do we define the game?  If something is allowable, then getting mad that it's enjoyed that way is pointless and fruitless. But breaking the rules just because you can and you can enjoy it is also counter-intuitive and can lead to the downfall of the game.

 

I prefer "people enjoy the game their own way".  That means within the structure and rules, everyone can enjoy it differently, but the game retains its integrity. If you don't enjoy it, then don't play it.

 

So it still comes down then to - how do we define the game?  That is what HQ needs to decide, based on their own goals, and community feedback. 

When it comes to AL geoarts, I think the message is mixed. At one point they were cracking down on them, but they keep popping up incessantly all over the world. So it's kind of a catch-22 for HQ to decide how to define this aspect of the "geocaching" realm of activity which now includes Adventures.

 

[+Nite*Owls]

6 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

If someone's having fun, then what does it matter?

 

The argument always go to either extreme. There are either rules, and so someone enjoyment will be thwarted by the 'spirit' of the game, or enjoyment is king and if it doesn't explicitly and directly hurt someone else then it should be just fine.

 

When it comes to AL geoarts, I think the message is mixed.

 

If GS/HQ is going to allow these AL geoarts so cachers can rack up a TON of... *ahem*... "cache finds" to please some people, then how about they allow those fun challenge caches that they used to (ie: titles, locations, etc.), to please other cachers who enjoy those? Like you said, if someone's having fun, why does it matter? Since logging tons of multiple choice AL geoart questions doesn't technically hurt anyone, nether does those old challenge caches. I can ignore the AL geoarts, just like others can ignore the challenge caches that they used to allow, and bring them back for those of us that enjoy them.
Just to make it clear also, I'm not disagreeing with you, and I totally understand what you are saying. Just my thoughts on the current rules of these two controversial aspects of geocaching. Also, giving challenge caches their own type/icon would definitely help solve a lot of newbie confusion issues. ALs have their own type/icon.

[+The Leprechauns]

2 hours ago, Nite*Owls said:

f GS/HQ is going to allow these AL geoarts so cachers can rack up a TON of... *ahem*... "cache finds" to please some people, then how about they allow those fun challenge caches that they used to (ie: titles, locations, etc.), to please other cachers who enjoy those? Like you said, if someone's having fun, why does it matter? Since logging tons of multiple choice AL geoart questions doesn't technically hurt anyone, nether does those old challenge caches. I can ignore the AL geoarts, just like others can ignore the challenge caches that they used to allow, and bring them back for those of us that enjoy them.

 

A key difference is that the presence of an Adventure has zero effect on someone's ability to place a cache nearby.  Adventure stages don't count towards the "Cache Saturation" guideline.  In contrast, when a challenge cache is hidden, then nobody else can hide a cache within 528 feet.  For so-called "challenge trails," this can result in large sections of desirable outdoors space to be "off limits" to newer geocachers who don't meet the qualifications for the challenge caches. 

 

I say this as a huge fan of challenge caches, and as the owner of a "challenge trail."  As a challenge cache owner, I receive messages several times per year from non-qualifying geocachers who complain that the caches are elitist and exclusionary.  Nobody's ever made such a complaint about my Adventure.

[+Nite*Owls]

33 minutes ago, The Leprechauns said:

As a challenge cache owner, I receive messages several times per year from non-qualifying geocachers who complain that the caches are elitist and exclusionary.

Someone could say the same thing about high D/T caches. Not everyone has the ability to climb or swim/kayak to a cache, and I've seen plenty of those "trails." The problem is some cachers think they need to get every. single. cache. And they can still sign the logs on those challenge caches they don't yet qualify for, and then log a find on those caches later on when they do. It's a pretty simple concept. I think there's also plenty of traditional power trails out there already to satisfy cachers as it is.
Challenge caches are too restricted now and you just see the same types of challenges being put out over and over again because of the silly rules. Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a pro-challenge cache thread. My main point was why allow controversial fun types for some (AL geoarts), but not allow other fun types for others (challenge caches that used to be allowed).

[+JL_HSTRE]

16 hours ago, Nite*Owls said:

If GS/HQ is going to allow these AL geoarts so cachers can rack up a TON of... *ahem*... "cache finds" to please some people, then how about they allow those fun challenge caches that they used to (ie: titles, locations, etc.), to please other cachers who enjoy those? Like you said, if someone's having fun, why does it matter? 

 

Challenge Caches caused a lot of work for the Reviewers and Appeals.

 

ALs don't have that problem because there is no review system.

 

[+thebruce0]

On 4/25/2025 at 6:42 PM, The Leprechauns said:

For so-called "challenge trails," this can result in large sections of desirable outdoors space to be "off limits" to newer geocachers who don't meet the qualifications for the challenge caches. 

 

That brings me back to the *cough* challenge stars idea with this issue being one of the resolved one. People can of course still find those swaths of challenge caches and enjoy the adventure. They just can't currently log them as Found online until they qualify. But the challenge stars ideas allows Finds to count (since such caches would indeed be found), but relegates challenge qualification to its own metric. Difficulty, Terrain, and Challenge stars. And it solves other complaints/suggestions about the mechanic as well (like how to rate D and T for challenge caches, for the challenge or for its main cache itself). But I digress. It's been talked about in the forum ad nauseam in the past and clearly not sufficiently supported  

[+Mausebiber]

On 4/25/2025 at 3:33 PM, thebruce0 said:

I hate "people play the game their own way" - well no, people must play the game the way the game is defined to be played

 

I see it quite differently.  Let's assume you and your partner playing chess according to international rules, and I and my partner playing chess with our own rules, our queen may only go one step while the king may go as many as he likes.

 

How does the way we are playing chess is disturbing your chess?  Would you blame us for not following defined rules?  Only if you and I are playing chess, then we need to find an agreement. 

 

And for me, geocaching is very similar.  You and most here are thousands of miles away, how can my way disturb your way.

And, if someone here is getting angry about someone else's way of playing geoart, then they just want to get angry and upset.  If it's not geoart, then it is something else.  A reason to get upset will be found, for sure.

[+baer2006]

Regarding AL Geoarts, I noticed that they are not necessarily true "Geoarts" anymore when they get too big. At least on my AL app (Android version).

 

Spurred by a different discussion, I wanted to see how many ALs are in the (in-)famous "Assen Carpark" by now. When zooming into the area, I noticed that the spelled-out letters are strangely incomplete on the map. But when zooming in even more, so that my map covers only a part of the Geoart, they are complete. Playing around a bit, it seems that the AL app limits the number of ALs displayed on the map (or the API limits the number returned in a query). Maybe the limit is 500? The current AL count at the Assen hotspot seems to be around 640 now.

 

This can also degrade the experience of cachers, who want to browse for "real" ALs only (but not the "sit in your car for hours tapping on the phone" things). In the Assen area, you have to be careful to not have the "Geoart" on the map when clicking "Search this area", because otherwise you might miss all other ALs.

[+HHL]

8 hours ago, baer2006 said:

otherwise you might miss all other ALs.

That are which ones? Just avoid that area. It's pretty easy.

[+thebruce0]

On 5/2/2025 at 4:34 PM, Mausebiber said:

Let's assume you and your partner playing chess according to international rules, and I and my partner playing chess with our own rules, our queen may only go one step while the king may go as many as he likes.

When you play chess your own way, you have your own table, your own pieces, and you are the only two playing, against each other.

 

You don't have your own geocaching website.

You aren't finding only your own geocaches.

Create your own website and attract your own users and make your own "game board" around the world being sure you abide by every region's laws and bylaws (and that your users do the same), then you can (kind of) say you're playing with your own rules your own way.

 

ETA:

  

On 5/2/2025 at 4:34 PM, Mausebiber said:

How does the way we are playing chess is disturbing your chess?

If you and I, with very different rules, wanted to play chess on the same game board, that would not work out very well would it?

Edited May 5 by thebruce0

[+Mausebiber]

7 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

If you and I, with very different rules, wanted to play chess on the same game board, that would not work out very well would it?

 

Please read what said:  "Only if you and I are playing chess, then we need to find an agreement."

 

You don't have your own geocaching website.

-- True, and why would I need my own website?

You aren't finding only your own geocaches.

-- True again, I’m finding geocache around the world and as of now, not one single user had any complaints.  My profile is wide open, you can check any time if you want.

 

Create your own website and attract your own users and make your own "game board" around the world being sure you abide by every region's laws and bylaws (and that your users do the same), then you can (kind of) say you're playing with your own rules your own way.

-- I don’t have to create my own website, I’m quite happy with the Groundspeak site.

 

[+thebruce0]

16 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

True again, I’m finding geocache around the world and as of now, not one single user had any complaints.  My profile is wide open, you can check any time if you want.

Ok look, I have no idea how you play. I never said YOU are breaking any rules. I said everyone plays within the rules of the game, but may enjoy different aspects of it their own way. That was the point. You implied you play by your own rules just fine by using the chess board analogy. That is a faulty analogy. Geocaching is a community hobby; fundamentally. Chess is a closed game between two people. If you think you're 'breaking' geocaching rules by playing with your own rules, but you're actually not, and you're really just enjoying what you enjoy within the boundary of the game, then it honestly doesn't bother me 'how' you play. You're not the subject of the point I was making.

 

eta: In case you missed the addition:

On 5/2/2025 at 4:34 PM, Mausebiber said:

How does the way we are playing chess is disturbing your chess?

If you and I, with very different rules, wanted to play chess on the same game board, that would not work out very well would it?

 

It's more like one person may grasp and enjoy strategies of the knight more than someone else who loves the strengths of the bishop. They can both play 'their own way' within rules of chess; they may both even sometimes win or lose. But they can play together even though they enjoy different aspects to the game and its structure, that which makes it "Chess" and not "Checkers".

Edited May 6 by thebruce0

[+Mausebiber]

21 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

Ok look, I have no idea how you play. I never said YOU are breaking any rules

 

This is right, I'm playing according to the rules and I have no problem with it.  As a matter of facts, I find it quite easy to comply with the rules, they are clear, and easy to follow.

 

What I'm trying to say above is, that, even someone is not playing the way you and some others like it, it does not affect someone else. 

IF (I know you don't) you would cheat, I wouldn't even know it, it would not bother me, it would not affect my way of geocaching, really nothing.

This is why I don't like discussions like the one above, where others are being blamed for geocaching their way.

 

OR, like above, from the TO who says:

 

Quote

Now I look at someone who has say 10,000 finds, and I have to think that their "real" number is actually 5,000. The find numbers used to be interesting and have meaning, now they are so skewed it's a joke. Are they trying to ruin the real game of geocaching?

 

How can they ruin geocaching?  Only if someone trying to compare his own find numbers with someone else.  But why, what do I gain or lose?

[+thebruce0]

Two things.

 

First, we're going to be talking past each other unless you say what it is YOU are referring to that is "breaking the rules" of geocaching. As I said, if you are enjoying something that is within the structure of what makes "geocaching" "geocaching", then you're not countering my point. But if you are, then you are not geocaching, in the sense that you are not playing within the definitive bounds of what makes it geocaching. You are piggybacking your own game and rules.  I also didn't say that either enjoying a unique aspect, or even breaking a rule is always, 100%, going to affect someone else. Leading to...

 

Second, if you break the law but no one knows and you don't affect anyone, are you still breaking the law? Of course.  Your analogies are ignoring integrity - both personal and of the 'structure' of the thing you're breaking. If you drive through a red light when no one is around, are you still a law-abiding driver? (that's a different big debate as some would obviously say it's perfectly fine). Strictly, logically speaking, if you break the law - any time - you broke the law. Whether you're caught or charged is irrelevant. That's why it's integrity. Personal integrity for following rules even when it "doesn't matter" and integrity of definition - running a red light is not an allowable act while driving. Otherwise there wouldn't be a law against driving through a red light.

 

Geocaching has a structure and a definition. For example, if you are logging caches found that you didn't find, you are both denying personal and game integrity, and in that case you are affecting others because the logs you post to the website affect the community. Now if you're logging them in a personal notebook, not the shared website, then I couldn't care less if you physically found the cache or not; you're not using the website and your act strictly speaking isn't affecting anyone but you. But at that point you aren't "geocaching" in the sense that we are using geocaching.com as our 'game board'.  But... if you love statistics and you are choosing to find specific geocaches just to improve certain numbers, no, that doesn't impact someone else's game without their consent, it's not breaking any game structure or rules, and you are just enjoying an aspect of the game.  Simply having and valuing certain statistics is absolutely within the bounds of "geocaching" structure.

 

Do you understand the point I'm making yet?  Enjoying something 'your own way' is never wrong.  Playing your own way in that you are 'breaking a rule' denies one or both integrities - either you're lying and affecting others by continuing to "play the game" by your own rules caring nothing about how you are affecting others, or you're claiming that you are still playing the game even though the rules you are using do not meet the definition of the game, denying the integrity of its structure. ie, a different game.

 

Geocaching IS geocaching because it has a definition and a (very minimal) structure or set of rules. That provides a wide variety of ways to enjoy SO many aspects of the hobby. Because the general global game is bound to the website geocaching.com, you are affecting community by publicly interacting with it - whether it's cache owners or other geocache finders.  If you do the physical part without the website part, then you're potentially only interacting with cache owners - but if they use the website, then yes even then you may well be affecting the community depending on what you do with that cache owner's geocache. (eg, Destroy someone's cache because you enjoy destroying things? You just affected the CO who has to take it off the map; you broke a structure rule of geocaching, you did affect someone else, you are not geocaching)

 

So. What are you claiming to do that is "breaking a rule" of geocaching? Or are you just enjoying it within the structure that defines what geocaching is?

 

 

And full circle back to the OP - this whole line of thought was brought on because I said HQ needs to decide whether Adventure Geoarts are 'within the structure' or rules of Adventure Labs and/or geocaching, because there seems to have been some mixed signals. They've cracked down on some of them, but they are still popping up, still being made, and being left alone by TPTB. It's a mixed signal. Will the push by community to make them 'normal' in that part of the game convince HQ to clarify the rules so that AL geoarts are within the bounds of the game? Arguably some might say that could leads to its downfall (as other have in the past), while others say it's a beloved fun aspect to Adventures and brings a whole lot of life and activity to it, despite not necessarily adhering to some elements of the 'spirit' of ALs. At least for those who enjoy them. As it stands, the current mechanic allows it, and HQ doesn't seem to be making a point of ensuring they are denied and archived. 

[+Mausebiber]

7 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

So. What are you claiming to do that is "breaking a rule" of geocaching?

 

NO, sure not, I would never ask someone to break the rules, I wouldn't even know who to ask.  Here where I live, everyone is geocaching according to the rules.

 

I try to see things your way, but I can't agree in every point.

You are saying:  "Strictly, logically speaking, if you break the law - any time - you broke the law. Whether you're caught or charged is irrelevant."

If a pedestrian is waiting at 4 o'clock in the morning at a red traffic light where on both sides the road is empty for miles, would you blame this person for crossing the street, even just breaking the law?

One aspect not taking into consideration so far is the common sense anyone should use while geocaching. 

Example: Rule says, take the cache, sign the log and return the cache as found.  Is it really so bad if geocacher at the ET Highway taking the container and drop it at the next stop?

They break the rules, but isn't it widely accepted?

 

 

Edited May 7 by Mausebiber

[+baer2006]

17 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

They break the rules, but isn't it widely accepted?

Whether it's "widely accepted" is a beside the point.

 

It's quite "widely accepted", to log a find, when not finding a cache and placing a throwdown instead. It's equally "widely accepted" to log a find as a "photo log", when the cache is obviously gone (clear hint/spoiler for the hide available). But both situations break the rules in a way which negatively effects other cachers (e.g. I sometimes avoid caches with a string of DNFs, but that doesn't help if the "finds" are not genuine).

 

As @thebruce0 has said: There are so many ways to play geocaching within it's definition! I don't think anyone has a problem when the phrase "Everyone plays the game in their own way" is understood in that sense. Unfortunately, I have heard that same phrase way too often when people tried to justify outright cheating (like logging finds for DNFs, or finds for caches never visited).

[+Mausebiber]

5 minutes ago, baer2006 said:

It's quite "widely accepted", to log a find, when not finding a cache and placing a throwdown instead. It's equally "widely accepted" to log a find as a "photo log", when the cache is obviously gone

 

 I don't think so.  Not sure about your experience, but for the people I know, it is not accepted.

 

-- This is getting off-topic and if we want to continue, maybe we should start a new thread.

[+thebruce0]

30 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

NO, sure not, I would never ask someone to break the rules, I wouldn't even know who to ask.  Here where I live, everyone is geocaching according to the rules.

Then what are you arguing? Or trying to debate? 

 

31 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

If a pedestrian is waiting at 4 o'clock in the morning at a red traffic light where on both sides the road is empty for miles, would you blame this person for crossing the street, even just breaking the law?

Whether I blame the person is irrelevant. If it's illegal in some region for a pedestrian to cross on a red light, then yes, they still broke the law.

 

32 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

Is it really so bad if geocacher at the ET Highway taking the container and drop it at the next stop?

First, the cache owners allow it, so players who do it aren't negatively affecting the cache owners.

Second, HQ gets to decide if this act is skirting or breaking the rule (and as they allow it, they are not denying the strategy as allowable). Many argue that it is against the rules, but the strategy in this 'grey area' still appeases the spirit of the game - the geocache was found, and the log was signed, even if the physical container and effectively identical log was swapped for another. The effect of the swap strategy is - no one else is affected and the 'rule' isn't broken. The 'rule' is not: "You must physically sign every geocache log in your hand and replace it in the exact same container and replace the same container you found back in the exact same way you found it."  And yes, the resulting vagueness of this one simple basic rule leaves some interpretation up in the air, which is why we get debates about the "spirit of geocaching" vs the "rules of geocaching". That is why there's leeway for people to enjoy the activity their own way without necessarily breaking a rule in the process.

 

So enjoy the hobby. If you're not breaking any simple rule or definition that describes what geocaching is, then you're doing just fine. 

 

The question remains. Are AL geoarts abusing the system of Adventures?  Are they still "geocaching"? 

[+Mausebiber]

Then what are you arguing? Or trying to debate?

-- I guess, I couldn't make myself clear.

 

Whether I blame the person is irrelevant

-- No, breaking the rule is not accepted, but be true, you never crossed the road while the light is still red.

 

First, the cache owners allow it, so players who do it aren't negatively affecting the cache owners.

-- since when are cache owner allowed to create their own rules?

 

the strategy in this 'grey area' still appeases the spirit of the game

-- so there are areas besides the official guidelines?  How far do those gray areas reach?

 

The 'rule' is not: "You must physically sign every geocache log in your hand and replace it in the exact same container and replace the same container you found back in the exact same way you found it." 

-- https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=141&pgid=537 says:

-- Once you've found the cache — sign the logbook.

-- Return the logbook and cache to their original location

 

The effect of the swap strategy is - no one else is affected and the 'rule' isn't broken

-- No, if someone signing logbook #5 and is coming back in 2 weeks to see who signed after him, logbook #5 is gone, not in #6 nor in #7.  I think, this person is affected by this way of geocaching.

 

But let's stop it, this discussing will get us nowhere, we are going in circles.  But thanks anyway for this interesting discussion.

 

 

 

Edited May 7 by Mausebiber

[+thebruce0]

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

Whether I blame the person is irrelevant

-- No, breaking the rule is not accepted, but be true, you never crossed the road while the light is still red.

I never said I haven't. My point is whether something that is illegal (or breaking a rule) is still illegal (or breaking a rule) if no one knows. Yes, it is.

 

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

-- since when are cache owner allowed to create their own rules?

Who said they made a rule?

They're responding to an act by geocachers that some consider 'cheating', though not explicitly breaking any geocaching rule, and since the cache owner says "hey, it's okay that you do this", they are different than other cache owners that would (regarding their personal container property) be upset if someone were to change their hide. This was about a geocacher's actions which they may feel does not affect anyone and how it does in fact affect the cache owner. In this case, the owners have said nope, that's okay.

 

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

so there are areas besides the official guidelines?  How far do those gray areas reach?

Until a rule is broken.  Anywhere else is up for debate, and most likely dependent on how much of an impact your actions affect others in the community. The reach/definition of the guidelines is the whole point of this line of discussion.

 

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

The 'rule' is not: "You must physically sign every geocache log in your hand and replace it in the exact same container and replace the same container you found back in the exact same way you found it." 

-- https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=141&pgid=537 says:

-- Once you've found the cache — sign the logbook.

-- Return the logbook and cache to their original location

Yes.

Look up the many many forum threads discussing the vagueness and flexibility found within the wording of this 'rule', and to what limit it gets pushed before HQ takes action on appeals.

 

1 hour ago, Mausebiber said:

The effect of the swap strategy is - no one else is affected and the 'rule' isn't broken

-- No, if someone signing logbook #5 and is coming back in 2 weeks to see who signed after him, logbook #5 is gone, not in #6 nor in #7.  I think, this person is affected by this way of geocaching.

Uh, this can happen with any geocache at any time. There is no rule here. Of course regular geocaching actions, within the structure of geocaching, can affect other people - it's a community game. It's not about whether you're affecting other people at all, it's about intentionally breaking defined rules that make geocaching geocaching, especially if it negatively directly affects someone else's experience.

I know as a geocacher if I want to literally see who signed a log sheet after me 2 weeks later, there is a slim chance already that would work out for me (depending on the cache and the log history), and that has nothing to do with whether a logsheet in a 2400+ nearly identical geocache series has slowly moved on down the line, since I'd know and expect that by just looking at the cache listing.

 

6 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

this discussing will get us nowhere, we are going in circles.

I think the point is pretty clear. But sure.

 

 

Now if HQ could make it clear whether geoarts are allowed or not, that could move the discussion forward