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Battery life vs importance of WAAS


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If you were deciding between the Etrex yellow and the Geko 201 - which would be more important to you...

 

Etrex basic yellow has battery life of 22 hours (but that is apparently in some kind of 'battery save mode' - I don't know what it is if you don't use that mode)

 

or..

 

Etrex Geko 201 with battery life of 12 hours (don't know about the battery save stuff) but is WAAS-enabled, which if I understand correctly, gives better accuracy.

 

I am currently borrowing an Etrex basic, and am still deciding between one like it, the 201, or the Meridian (but I really want the Platinum).

 

So - just wanted some thoughts on this - and any real-life experience.

 

"I took the road less travelled by, and that has made all the difference"

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I can tell you from my experience that WAAS really isn't worth the battery drain. Usually turn mine off (waas that is) since it really doesn't make any diff with accuracy. Hopefully in the near future when there will be more than 2 above N America it will though.

 

When you see the light at the end of the tunnel, make sure it's not a train coming at you

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The basic Meridian (green or yellow) can be had for as little as $99.99. It is a much better rig than either of the two others you mentioned. It is also a lot bigger. But with the memory card, mapping, and other features you will like it better.

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The Magellans were not designed to let consumers turn off WAAS willy-nilly, hence the hidden menus. The battery life specification of 12-14 hours would therefor include constant WAAS operation.

As for importance it's a subjective matter. How close do you need to be? There were small differences with and without WAAS when using SA Watch in my front yard. But not significant if I'm trying to find my front yard. icon_biggrin.gif

 

don

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WAAS is worth the battery drain (which may not be as much as you think). It comes in very handy when taking the coords for a new cache. However, that said, I would buy a basic Etrex over a geko anyday! Sorry, they just look like cheap kids toys to me.

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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Not to say the exact oppostie of EraSeek but WAAS isn't worth it. Ok maybe when you are hiding a cache and only if you are in a spot where WAAS works. Which is to say it's not worth it.

 

If the Gecko doesn't let you attach a computer cable pass it by.

 

Most geocachers end up turing off WAAS. Not all though and once WAAS settles in you do see a gain in accuracey. But WAAS also slows down your updates and this can get annoying.

 

If I was looking at a eTrex yellow I'd also look at the Venture (it should come with a computer cable and WAAS) due to the cable.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

Most geocachers end up turing off WAAS.


 

I don't think that is a realistic representation. Out of all the cachers, who can take advantage of WAAS, at least two thirds have WAAS. Of those the only people that don't use WAAS are the anti-s in these forums. I've only seen a dozen at most. That's only a fraction of one percent.

I don't see how you can say most.

 

Even that know it all kerry says WAAS is worth while.

If a GPSr is designed to run with WAAS always on how is it a benefit to run without it?

 

By no means are any of my numbers scientific.

 

39197_2700.jpg

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

If a GPSr is designed to run with WAAS always on how is it a benefit to run without it?


 

In the Meridian/MAP330 series with WAAS always on (by default thanks to Magellan), the 2 satellite positions used for WAAS are always dedicated to searching for WAAS regardless of whether or not you can get a lock on these birds. If you can't get or hold a lock on the WAAS birds, you've lost two birds you could be using if WAAS was disabled. For me in my particular area, gaining two birds that would otherwise be doing nothing except slowing the unit down (if WAAS was enabled and not used) is definitely a benefit to me. I like to at least be able to have control over if I want to use WAAS or not. icon_biggrin.gif

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WAAS causes a higher battery drain? Doesn't seem like it would be a measurable or noticeable difference. Kind of like saying your car gets better mileage with the headlights off. (It does)

 

When I used my GPS V in Florida with great WAAS signals, I was always seeing single digit error circles. I love when I can get a good WAAS signal here in Washington, hopefully they'll launch another WAAS bird with a better orbit soon.

 

Go for the WAAS, better yet, get the GPS V.

 

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

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I leave WAAS on most of the time and turn it off only when in tough covered areas. If you use both WAAS and auto-routing, that is where you see the update delays the most. I often think my updates are slow, so I turn WAAS off and I see no difference. Mapping seems to slow it more than WAAS.

 

Most people are turned off by WAAS due to the 'Accuracy Reading', but they don't realize that the accuracy reading is simply a thumbnail sketch of how your system is doing. It is not your actual accuracy! More often than not, you are doing much better than that number says, especially when enabling WAAS. It will at first give you a very high number and then drift back down. If it says an accuracy reading of 90', don't freak out, you may still be within feet of the correct coordinates. Go enable WAAS and stand on a benchmark and see how close you get to that confirmed mark. It convinced me.

 

It takes a bit to load the almanac, but once loaded, and if WAAS drops out, it picks it back up where you left off.

 

In addition, someone recently did a trial and found that the battery drain is there, but is not really significant.

 

WAAS is a benefit. By no means a nescesity. Personally, I use it when I think I is helpful. Why not?

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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quote:
In the Meridian/MAP330 series with WAAS always on (by default thanks to Magellan), the 2 satellite positions used for WAAS are always dedicated to searching for WAAS regardless of whether or not you can get a lock on these birds. If you can't get or hold a lock on the WAAS birds, you've lost two birds you could be using if WAAS was disabled.

Of all the objections to WAAS, this one makes the least sense. It can only conceivably apply if you live in an area outside the WAAS/EGNOS coverage.

 

I have never seen 12 satellites visible at one time unless I include the 2 WAAS birds. By your argument, you could pick up every satellite in the sky but somehow miss the WAAS satellites. Not very likely, I'd say.

 

Generally speaking, this kind of argument comes from people who don't understand very well how GPS accuracy is determined and who heard from somebody somewhere that WAAS can make accuracy worse. Which, on the Magellans anyway, it can't.

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I'm lucky if I can get 5 sats locked on. I have a Garmin III+ (no WAAS) and a Magellan Nav Companion (WAAS enabled). The Magellan will generally be more accurate than the Garmin, but the Palm/GPS combo is a lot more fragile so I don't use it as often, only when the Garmin can't get a good signal in heavy tree coverage.

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Not much use of Egnos here yet, since it's only in test mode so far, but the little I've seen can be summarized like this:

 

When I do have a good Egnos reception, the position seems more stable than otherwise.

 

The EPE with Egnos gets smaller, which doesn't necessarily mean that the position is more accurate. But at least it thinks so.

 

I rather frequently see more than 10 sats available, i.e. Egnos "steals" one or two, which could have been used for something else.

 

Most of the time, Egnos rather adds two possible sats to what could be received, since there aren't more than 10 available anyway.

 

The slow-down of the unit is most noticeable before it got an Egnos lock. Seems reasonable that it's struggling more to get a lock than to maintain it.

 

Added power consumption comes only from using more CPU cycles, due to the added need for calculations, when using Egnos.

 

IOR will not allow ranging yet, so the signal strength bar will never become dark.

 

There is an inherent flaw in the design of WAAS/Egnos handling in Garmin's receivers. This means that a unit that has locked on to WAAS, for example, will no longer search for sats belonging to Egnos, and vice versa. So somebody on the east cost of the US, could accidentially receive AOR-E instead of AOR-W. The receiver will then get the almanac for Egnos, and refuse to look for any WAAS satellite. This means that you have to delete the almanac from your receiver, before you can "get going" with the correct system again. They (Garmin) will probably figure out some programming fix to handle this in the future, I assume.

 

It's beneficiary to allow the unit to receive Egnos signals in advance, prior to doing some important precision work (like geocaching). Turn it on in the car, since if you don't turn it on until you hit the woods, it will most certainly not work.

 

Anders

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quote:
Originally posted by fizzymagic:

 

Of all the objections to WAAS, this one makes the least sense. It can only conceivably apply if you live in an area outside the WAAS/EGNOS coverage.

 

I have _never_ seen 12 satellites visible at one time unless I include the 2 WAAS birds. By your argument, you could pick up every satellite in the sky but somehow miss the WAAS satellites. Not very likely, I'd say.

 

Generally speaking, this kind of argument comes from people who don't understand very well how GPS accuracy is determined and who heard from somebody somewhere that WAAS can make accuracy worse. Which, on the Magellans anyway, it can't.


 

Then I will refrain from making any further comments and let the "experts" speak.

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Apples and Oranges.

 

The difference you see in the battery life from the E-trex units to the GEKO units has nothing to do with WAAS.

 

The E-trex units use AA batteries. The GEKO units use AAA batteries. To some extent, battery size has something to do with maximum battery capacity. All things equal, the AA has more size, hence more capacity that the AAA in the GEKO.

 

Although I have never metered it (and I really should), I have never noticed a visible decrease in battery life with the WAAS on. Just my observation.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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I have three different GPS units. My experience is that when the batteries drop down to 1/4 power I have to replace them. They begin loosing sensitivity and accuracy. So you never reach the spec battery life. WAAS or not.

 

The only battery issue for me is whether it uses two or four batteries. The GPS V uses twice as many batteries as the Meridian in about the same amount of time.

 

39197_2700.jpg

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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In the original post, Life Journey said he was considering eTrex, Geko 201 or a Meridian. I recommended the Meridian because it is a much more full featured GPSr.

If battery life is the only consideration,choose the etrex.

Regarding WAAS, I run my Legend with it off most of the time, unless, I am wanting a precise mark while stationary. With WAAS on it seems to slow the processing of the unit, and shows a worse "accuracy" number while moving and when not getting a good signal from a WAAS satellite.

Tests on NGS adjusted benchmarks show it to be several feet more accurate with WAAS on and receiving at least one WAAS satellite (and 6 to 8 regular ones).

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

Of those the only people that don't use WAAS are the anti-s in these forums. I've only seen a dozen at most. That's only a fraction of one percent.


 

First what the heck is anti-s?

 

Second the way I can say most is that most of the geocaches that I know who have WAAS don't use it. Simple as that. Know means met, in person and not in these forums.

 

Now if there is a pocket of cacher who go against the norm here in Idaho then I'm guilty of stereotyping. Otherwise most pretty much means most which if you measure it can start somewhere about 51% which isn't the same as 'all'.

 

As for a unti desinged to have WAAS 'on' all the time vs. having the ability to shut it off, how the heck would I know? I only know my own experience and the experience of the people who have shut it off. Which is exactly what I said. Having it on slows down the GPS.

 

If you can shut it off at all, then it's not really desinged to be on all the time.

 

My manual says WAAS does use more power.

When push comes to shove though, I turn off WAAS due to lag, not battery life. That's why the invented rechargable batteries.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

 

[This message was edited by Renegade Knight on May 13, 2003 at 03:08 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Knight:

Most geocachers end up turing off WAAS.


Where is the word KNOW?

There are over 36000 cachers out there. MOST is a majority.

If you're referring to a very small misinformed local group, you can't say most cachers.

 

ANTI- anti-WAAS anti-gun anti-war. An anti is someone that has an unreasonable opinion and forces it on others as if it's the truth.

 

I remember a lot of anti-air-conditioner-in-car people in the 70's and 80's. "You will get better gas mileage if you unplug your air conditioner compressor." Even though the compressor still drags on the engine, unplugged or not.

 

39197_2700.jpg

I am the result of genetic manipulation of superior Geocacher DNA. Faster, stronger with superior reasoning and logic.

Mokita!

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quote:
Originally posted by leatherman:

Even that know it all kerry says WAAS is worth while.


 

Did I say that icon_rolleyes.gif maybe there's things missing but for the record I'll might clarify what I think icon_smile.gif.

 

WAAS has it's place but it's certainly not the be all and end all of necessity.

 

It's hellingish expensive for what improved accuracy it provides considering the area it services and some of the issues that still exist. WAAS appears to be currently caught up in a time warp, designed for/in the past but trying to survive in the present/future.

 

Compared to WAAS other countries have developed (are developing) systems that fit the same application at a fraction of the cost compared to WAAS.

 

As for being able to turn it off, maybe some are missing something here but GPS is a global utility, WAAS isn't and if one doesn't have the capability to turn the dam thing off then accuracy simply goes through the roof in by far the largest part of the world where WAAS doesn't exist.

 

Why some actually want to leave it on come hell or high water I really don't know as it simply isn't practical for all users all of the time.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Just the facts, please...

 

I've been following this and other WAAS threads and I'm finding lots of opinions.

 

Does anyone have some emprical data to share? I'd be interested in some tables showing battery life in a specific GPS unit with WAAS on versus off, and some real-world comparisons of accuracy in the same units with it on or off.

 

Does anyone know where I could find this kind of data?

 

---

LDR.

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Real world?

 

Ok My manual say's it uses more batter power. It doesn't go into detail.

 

The lag caused by having WAAS enabled is noticable though I have not measured it.

 

One of my caches has a log about WAAS saying 3' accuracy while tying to find my cache. That cacher uses an eTrex vista.

 

Now Leatherman, I haven't seen one iota of evidence that you know a majority of cachers who have WAAS use it. While you may assume that my small sample of cachers is misinformed, it's real world experience vs your opinion. Your opinion ain't worth squat when the facts are real and your opinion controtics them. Perhaps there are other GPS units that don't have these issues. Fair enough. Mine does, the eTrex Vista does and I'm 80% sure (I'd have to ask to remind myself) the Sport Track Pro does. Plus check the forums for past posts on this same topic. Most is most just like you said, but most is WAAS is disabled for caching. Not Enabled.

 

I'm done running over this dead cat. It may be getting flatter but it's not smelling better.

 

=====================

Wherever you go there you are.

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quote:
As quoted by kerry:

Why some actually want to leave it on come hell or high water I really don't know as it simply isn't practical for all users all of the time.


 

Kerry, although your posts can be a bit technical at times, I was hoping you may be able to answer me a few questions, in laymans terms if possible please icon_smile.gif

 

I live on the East Coast of the USA, I almost always get strong waas signals or at least the little D's appear in a lot of bars on my Sat screen. If the technology is available to me, why would I NOT want to take advantage of it?

 

If it is really not "applicable" to all users at all times, is it added just to boost sales? I mean after all, land surveyors and such are not using civilian receivers to plot boundaries and so forth.

 

I do understand that with road navigation, the precise accuracy may not be needed, but I would think cachers would want the accuracy if it is available, No?

 

Thanks...Kar

 

TEAM SHIBBY!!!!

 

Krs, Kar & Na

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quote:
Originally posted by Lee David Rimar:

Just the facts, please...

 

I've been following this and other WAAS threads and I'm finding lots of _opinions_.

 

Does anyone have some emprical data to share? some real-world comparisons of accuracy in the same units with it on or off.

 

Does anyone know where I could find this kind of data?

 

---

_LDR._


 

Here is one site for accuracy with WAAS ON and OFF: http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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Team Shabby, for sure if you have good reception, clear reception at a reasonable elevation then that's fine.

 

When you say you "almost always" is that a function of location (wood, forest, city etc) or some other issue.

 

I think with manufacturers if one does it (and in this case the primary contractor for WAAS has a little self interest in the system anyway) then business being business the others will follow as it is an open system.

 

Where will WAAS be in few years time when civil dual frequency will have an accuracy around 1.5m globally without some of the restrictions that WAAS presents with.

 

All this increased accuracy stuff is becoming a little blinding for some people, they want it but sometimes don't realize the whole situation.

 

Take some of the boaties, have to have WAAS accuracy, need that "pin point" accuracy but in effect the distance between their sounder transducer and their GPS is greater than the accuracy of the system so it can be all rather a little meaningless, that's not useless just meaningless.

 

Accuracy can mean different things to different people even to the point that until all receivers start displaying more than 3 decimal minutes in the output then again it can be a bit meaningless.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Kerry:

"Effect" of enabling WAAS On Accuracy

Australia, 2002

...www.cqnet.com.a...


 

Like real estate and geocaching, WAAS reception has a lot to do with location. At least from what I read here

 

I guess when I asked for some some real world examples, I should have asked for something closer to home. I understand why WAAS wouldn't work in Australia, still not sure if it's a worhtwhile proposition in southeastern Michigan, USA.

 

---

LDR.

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quote:
Originally posted by Lee David Rimar:

Like real estate and geocaching, WAAS reception has a lot to do with location. At least from what I read

 

... I understand why WAAS wouldn't work in Australia, still not sure if it's a worhtwhile proposition in southeastern Michigan, USA.


 

For sure location is everything but don't worry the "pin point accuracy" (in other words WAAS) has already been used as a selling point in Oz. One thing that was never really mentioned in all the blurb was, it doesn't work here. I know just a little minor oversight but some sales people will try anything. When that test was done some advertisements made all sorts of claims.

 

I suppose the biggest sticking point with those that have to make it work (and fund it) is so far it has cost well over half (and not yet complete) the total cost of GPS, which is a global utility and yet the improvement in accuarcy and the area it covers simply doesn't relate back in $$ terms.

 

From Lake Michigan (if that's anywhere near you?) AOR-W is around 28 odd degrees above the horizon and dropping as one moves west. Worthwhile ? something to actually try on the ground, so many variables.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

 

[This message was edited by Kerry on May 14, 2003 at 05:41 AM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Kerry:

From Lake Michigan (if that's anywhere near you?) AOR-W is around 28 odd degrees above the horizon and dropping as one moves west.


 

Well, Lake Michigan is nearer to me than any points in Oz, but it's on the other side of the state :-) I'm about half a degree north of downtown Detroit.

 

My GPS almost always shows one WAAS sat (ADR-W), sometimes two (second being ADR-E?). And according to maps on this page there are ground stations near enough to me that I should be able to get valid corrections.

 

Since I live in an area where WAAS should have at least some usefullness, I was really more concerned with HOW MUCH usefulness and also the impact on battery life. Since every unit varies, I think the only way I'll be able to find out is to run with it off for a while and see if I can notice a difference.

 

---

LDR.

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LDR, AOR-E isn't a WAAS satellite but EGNOS, which will be correction data for Europe, whenever the system is complete. Your receiver shouldn't want anything to do with that one.

 

Cheers, Kerry.

 

I never get lost icon_smile.gif everybody keeps telling me where to go icon_wink.gif

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Thanks Kerry!

 

From the diagrams I am seeing, I am not all that far from a WAAS ground station. I would imagine that is the reason I get such a strong signal (yes I do notice it just about everywhere, maybe not under a dense canopy of trees) I have only used my GPS in New York City once, so I cannot attest to the big cities.

 

WAAS at the very least is confusing. It seems to be more gearded towards boaters and pilots (although it has not yet been approved by the FAA for flying).

 

Yes, I do believe it adds to battery drain and occasional sluggishness to the unit performance, but when I have WAAS enabled I do get an EPE in the single digits (between 6 - 9' EPE) and when WAAS is disabled I get anywhere from 13 -17' EPE.

 

I will test it out over the next few weeks and see what works out best for me, I do appreciate the time you have taken to answer my questions icon_smile.gif

 

One more thing...The team may be a bit dysfunctional at this time, but we are not shabby icon_wink.gif

 

Kar

 

[This message was edited by Team Shibby on May 14, 2003 at 09:40 PM.]

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quote:
Originally posted by Kerry:

LDR, AOR-E isn't a WAAS satellite but EGNOS, which will be correction data for Europe...Your receiver shouldn't want anything to do with that one.


 

That may be, but the Magellan shows two sats on sreen. The one it always gets is AOR-W, the other is lower and further east than the other so I assume it is AOR-E.

 

Whether or not it uses any data -- from either of them -- at any given time is a mystery to me :-)

 

---

LDR.

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NO, NO, No! People just don't get this part. The proximity of a WAAS station has VERY little to do with accurate corrections and NOTHING to do with strength of signal. You get your signal and data from the WAAS sats, and as long as you are in the WAAS coverage area (which is all of the US and then some) it doesn't matter how close to a station you are, because that data is processed into a model for the whole coverage area, and then the appropriate data for your immediate area is selected out by your GPS and applied. That is the great benefit of this system over the old DGPS broadcast system. You don't need to be close to a station.

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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''I do get an EPE in the single digits (between 6 - 9' EPE) and when WAAS is disabled I get anywhere from 13 -17' EPE.''

 

Yes this is about what I get as well, however while standing on a benchmark my ACTUAL position with WAAS on was 0'-6', and with it off it was 8'-14'.

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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I stand corrected!

 

As I stated the whole WAAS thing is confusing. I sometimes confuse WAAS with DGPS. I forget the ground stations just upload corrected data.

 

On my drive home today I left WAAS off and my EPE was 22' the whole way home. When I got home I realised I forgot my cell phone back at work, so I jump in the car and head back but this time I set WAAS to enabled. I had 8' EPE all the way to and from (24 mile round trip).

 

My true test will be a GPS verified Benchmark. Last time I tried I it said I was 3'off, but my DATUM was set for WGS84, if that makes a difference. I have since learned it should be NAD83 for BM's.

 

Kar

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Go ahead and leave your Map Datum on WGS84 as it is almost exactly the same as NAD83. It is close enough that your GPS can not recognize the difference.

 

Now NAD27 is a different matter. Where I am it will set you off somewhere around 200-300' as I recall.

 

4497_300.jpg

 

"See the wonderous works of Providence! The uncertainty of human things!" Geo.Washington

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To disable WAAS in the Meridians:

Hold NAV and GOTO buttons down, and press power button. It should say 00 in a box.

cursor up to 03, then press enter.

The WAAS status screen will pop up. Hitting Enter will toggle WAAS on and off. Turn off WAAS, then quickly hit PWR twice, to shut the unit off.

 

WAAS can make the Magellan eractic, so I have used the Platinum with WAAS off ever since, never ever had problems with my Platinum like other people have had.

 

WAAS is best for Boating, Flying and serveying, but not among obstructions like Trees and buildings. People have said that obstructions can cause a unit with WAAS activated, to be worst than a GPS with WAAS off.

 

I do not use WAAS on any of my GPS units, because it can make the GPS units sluggish.

 

____________________________________________

The Platinum is better than my eTrex Vista, because it has better reception, but none of my Magellans ever came close to the accuracy of any Garmins of mine. The Trip odometer of all my Magellans always came up very short, and the Tracklogging of my Meridian Platinum does not come close to that of my GPS V's. For caching, the best unit is the Platinum, but I prefer the GPS V units of mine for everything else.

 

What I want from Magellan:

1 Faster Processor.

2 More accurate Trip info like the Trip Odometer.

3 Ability to segment the Tracklog by turning the Receiver on and off, like on the Garmins.

 

--------------------------------------------------

My Old posts as Geoffrey

My Current Post as GOT GPS?

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