+Icenians Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Just in case you don't read the other sites forums. How's this for hypocrisy from a site that insists you don't post commercial caches. Commercial cacheMight help explain why my caches won't appear here again Quote Link to comment
+Naefearjustbeer Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 with a capital H if you ask me AUT PAX AUT BELLUM Quote Link to comment
MCL Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 Bear in mind that there is a cultural difference here. What the americans call "commercial" and what we call "commercial" are not always quite the same. To them, it is quite normal to have such things pushed at them 24 hours a day and never even being considered as anything suspect. We on the other hand, take one look and run away very fast... I doubt whether such a cache would get approved over here. No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.... Quote Link to comment
+welch Posted June 30, 2003 Share Posted June 30, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Icenians:Just in case you don't read the other sites forums. How's this for hypocrisy from a site that insists you don't post commercial caches. Oh that... You should read the other thread(s) about it. I only read part(as I found said thread boring ), but it seems someone knew someone and that helped get it approved, even if it was questionable. Edit: fixed typos Quote Link to comment
+Kouros Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Bit of a shame that got approved, IMHO. I don't think it should have been. I think it's more likely to be an anomaly, rather than a sign of things to come. If it happens again, or more regularly, I'd be worried. Whereabouts was it discussed before, anyway? ------ An it harm none, do what ye will Quote Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Kouros:Whereabouts was it discussed before, anyway? Here ..... If only life had an undo button.... London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Quote Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Check out the Profile of the placer - looks like it is gc.coms commercial arm at work. To be read in a Big Brother Geordie voice… Now this is either A. rampant commercialism as Jeremy tries to make himself a millionaire as quickly as possible B. or a way to raise cash to subsidise the running of the site. You decide... For A. text Rampant Commercialism to 8444 Or For B. text Subsidy to 8444 All text messages cost £75 please ask permission before texting. Chris If only life had an undo button.... London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Quote Link to comment
+John Stead Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 I've just followed the link Chris n Maria provided and wonder how people can waste so much time debating nothing. Personally I can't see what all the fuss is about - I'd rather get out and do some caching, but am I now doing just the same, wasting time! Member Geocaching Association of GB Quote Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jstead:I've just followed the link Chris n Maria provided and wonder how people can waste so much time debating nothing. Maybe they are all at work... If only life had an undo button.... London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Quote Link to comment
+stu_and_sarah Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Icenians:Just in case you don't read the other sites forums. How's this for hypocrisy from a site that insists you don't post commercial caches. [This message was edited by Stu & Sarah on July 01, 2003 at 06:35 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+welch Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Stu & Sarah: Because to me that thing looks like a yield sign. Which means you want me to stop and let the trolls cross? Quote Link to comment
+Kouros Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by welch:Because to me that thing looks like a yield sign. Which means you want me to stop and let the trolls cross? It's a warning sign - a slightly modified warning for a humpback bridge, a bridge that, lets say a troll, might live under. ------ An it harm none, do what ye will Quote Link to comment
+bigkid Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Hi Kouros and crew. I'm John Chen (bigkid), CEO of PlayTime Inc. which specializes in Geoteaming programs. Wow, Jeremy has clued me into the commercial cache aspects of this and how much feedback he's getting from the community. I'll try to add my 2 cents and let you know what's up on my side. I asked him about this cache and started to get these viewpoints: 1) It was free, so no money was made on the cache, in fact, VW paid for all the events that occurred on the day. 2) There was geocaching during the event, in fact, participants had GPS units all day and when for a 12 cache hunt in Discovery Park. Many were non-geocachers and converts by the days end. 3) Someone wrote a note that it should be 5 stars because you need a VW to participate. Good feedback, the event's over, but we'll note that in future events. If we put it back on geocaching.com for a future event, VW has looked at open enrollment so anyone can participate. 4) Jeremy and Groundspeak didn't sell out and make heaps of money on this event. This was VW's first Geocaching based event and he wanted to help support it. For the geocachers who did go, they said it was a very cool event and went beyond their expectations. I hope you guys/the community understands as well as I learned a lot about what the community thinks is cool and not. I'll make sure to look more carefully at future events to gauge the commercial aspect. Meanwhile, our company does teach free GPS and geocaching courses at REI, we have lent out our fleet of GPS units to local non-profits to teach orgs like Girl Scouts geocaching, and have helped put on non-profit geocaching events with Geocaching.com and the WSGA. So I hope the flame isn't on too high and you'll forgive us for experimenting with this VW cache. Feel free to reply here or email me at bigkid@playtimeinc.com if you have further comments or views. Thanks, -John bigkid, CEO of PlayTime Inc. The Official Geocaching Corporate Team Building and Event Provider http://www.playtimeinc.com Quote Link to comment
+The Hungry Caterpillars Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Hi CEO we were suprised by this cache.We would like to ask what VW expected back from their sponsorship if it was not the advertising it produced .There is no such thing as a free lunch.After viewing your profile and also your website provided by you we would also regard this as advertising i.e for your salary and for further advertising.In the US you may have a different outlook on this but in the UK we would look upon this as obviously advertising .'Wow' would not be the word we would use but rather 'Oh dear what a dreadfully awful Horlicks old boy' Quote Link to comment
Jeremy Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Commercial caches are nothing new. Project APE were caches specifically placed by FOX (actually by geocachers) with props from the movie to promote the Planet of the Apes movie. Seems like a case of sour grapes to me. The fact that it was exclusionary seems more of an issue for some (even I wouldn't be allowed to go). On the whole value of Hypocrisy (capital H for you) we've done it in the past, so it can't be a huge shock that some commercial entity may sponsor a cache, or cache event. Talking specific to this VW cache, the decision to open it up on the web site was last minute. There were a few openings available and it seemed perfectly reasonable to let other VW owners in the area know about it. If you had an opportunity to go rock climbing, go cart racing and a planned geocaching course in the same day for free, wouldn't you want to know about it? Commercial caches generally are banned, for the reason of more poor planning (creating crap caches in front of xx store front). Cache events like the one that happened last Saturday should be a model for how great a sponsored geocaching event can be. Both this event and the Project APE caches were taken with great interest, as well as the current Magellan Treasure Hunt going on right now. (See how I made that link above trackable? Oh. The horror!) If you don't want the site to be supported by sponsorship, tough break. It keeps us from pop up hell and advertising saturation on the site. We also feel it's pretty cool when a company puts their time, energy and resources into creating a model for quality geocaching events. Jeremy Irish Groundspeak - The Language of Location Quote Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jeremy:(See how I made that link above trackable? Oh. The horror!) Am I being thick? or does anyone else understand what that sentence means? Chris If only life had an undo button.... London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Chris n Maria:Am I being thick? or does anyone else understand what that sentence means? Basically it means that it's logged when people click on it. Or something. What's your favourite thing? Quote Link to comment
+Brenin Tegeingl Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Thanks to Jeremy & CEO putting the record straight from their side of the issue. I hope that this has cleared up what can be a contentious issue. I sent a email addressed to Jeremy asking if there was a possibility of him posting a message about this cache event, and whether he's read it or not, I for one am happy with the reply. Mancunian Pyrocacher. I burn to cache! Quote Link to comment
+The Bennett Family Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:If you don't want the site to be supported by sponsorship, tough break. It keeps us from pop up hell and advertising saturation on the site. We also feel it's pretty cool when a company puts their time, energy and resources into creating a model for quality geocaching events. Makes sense to me, lord save us from pop-ups! Gaz. We take our children everywhere, but they always find their way back home... Member of GAGB, enthusiastic user of G:UK, Charter M...oh never mind, we just like everyone. The Bennett Family Webspace Quote Link to comment
+The Hungry Caterpillars Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 Hi Jeremy we have totally different ideas about what is advertising.It does not bother me if you were to become more commercial as long as the site did appear not to claim otherwise.I like your site and would still use if it were more commercial.After all you have to produce income to support it.We also totally agree with your comments about retail outlets.We still feel that this particular cache is a form of advertising.Would you not agree with this statement? Quote Link to comment
+Kouros Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Mancunian Pyrocacher:I sent a email addressed to Jeremy asking if there was a possibility of him posting a message about this cache event, and whether he's read it or not, I for one am happy with the reply. Indeed, it is always worth getting the other side of the story. I felt more than a little guilty about jumping to a conclusion, which is why I asked bigkid to post here. However, I can't help but wonder why the event had to be so brand specific. Surely, it's one thing to say that VW organised the event, and quite another to say you can't take part unless you do so in a VW. Just MHO, of course, and I do have a tendency to mouth off... Another niggling point is this, and I may well be alone in this feeling: I paid my $30 not so long ago, and it does feel a little odd that, although I'm paying for a service (albeit paying voluntarily for a 'free' service), there are still going to be fairly blatant advertisements. Guess it must be a cultural difference thing, or maybe just a personal one. I never felt too keen on paying for cable or satellite, when I knew I would be watching advertisements a quarter of the time. This isn't the same thing, I know, but still. Perhaps even after more than a year into the game, I had just been a little naive about the site - especially the guidelines suggesting that commercial caches weren't allowed. That all said and done, I do heartily agree with Gaz, Suni, Jack & Kashi, when they say save us from popups. A well organised event by a company is better than that - but it's only a small step from the VW event (which was exclusive anyway) to another company organising one where you had to buy their product at the event in order to take part. Just my thoughts. ------ An it harm none, do what ye will Quote Link to comment
+welch Posted July 1, 2003 Share Posted July 1, 2003 quote:Originally posted by CEO & The BigKid:I'm John Chen (bigkid), CEO of PlayTime Inc. which specializes in Geoteaming programs. Wow, Jeremy has clued me into the commercial cache aspects of this and how much feedback he's getting from the community. First, thank you for all the time and money you put into teaching others about GPS and caching. On to the Commerical part: To me, a commerical cache is one is which you have to pay money to 'do it'. It makes not difference if thats before during or after the event. Let me point out that I don't think someone would actually buy a VW to take part, or that one would be a ticket into some theme park just to do the caches. But they are IMO commerical caches, and if they those are allowed. Then why are the 'cache box at the counter in Joe's coffee shop' types denied?? Jeremy: Are commerical caches that are well planned ok?? If Joe's Coffee shop, hosts an event that meets all the requirements of an event, but requires everyone buy at least on double frothy whatsyoucallit... will that be approved?? Quote Link to comment
+mdshamilton Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Unless I mis-read the cache and it's logs, I don't think anyone had to pay to join the VW event. I don't have a problem with the VW event, at the end of the day it's a game and if more people get involved so much the better. I personally think that people here are still a tad oversensitive as a result of the clearly commercial caches over a year ago in the UK where every other posting on the site and cache hidden had links to that person's GPS software and business. Mark, Matthew & Christopher We'll get there eventually.... Quote Link to comment
+The Hungry Caterpillars Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 After reading more of this site we love it.It is obvious that Jeremy and John Chen have come up with a cunning wheeze .This involves taking money off corporate America to take part in some form of strange outward bound courses to help in 'team building'.This money is then used to support the site .More power to your elbow(s).Then in our case it allows us to use the site for free.This means that this site hovers on the edge of being commercial but can stay free to us . Quote Link to comment
Warby Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jeremy:Commercial caches generally are banned, for the reason of more poor planning (creating crap caches in front of xx store front). I am new to this game and am just trying to understand the rules, so could somebody explain how London's Webcam Cache differs from the description given above - it even contains a link to the restaurant's web page. Is the compulsory payment of money the only measure for a commercial cache? Interestingly, looking at the placers profile, it may have been approved in the states. Quote Link to comment
+welch Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 quote:Originally posted by mdshamilton:Unless I mis-read the cache and it's logs, I don't think anyone had to pay to join the VW event. The way I read the page, you had to have to have a VW to join. That would be a cost IMO. quote:Warby:I am new to this game and am just trying to understand the rules, so could somebody explain how London's Webcam Cache differs from the description given above - it even contains a link to the restaurant's web page. Is the compulsory payment of money the only measure for a commercial cache? Interestingly, looking at the placers profile, it may have been approved in the states. A commerical cache is generally anything you would you have to pay to do, or may obligated to do so. The cache you link was approved in 2001 it seems, which it means its grandfathered in(the guidelines change over time). This is why there are still a few caches inside coffee shops, themeparks &etc. They are not archived when the guidelines change, but no new ones are supposed to be allowed. Quote Link to comment
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