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One case where democracy rules and screws it up.


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This seems a very apt time to bring up a situation that has come to my notice. As a stay in the background moderator I am stunned at the selfish atitude of some people on this forum. And at this moment in time I don't particularly care who I upset.

 

When a moderator is in negotiations with a national body to try and avert the situation that has happened in the USA and it is scuppered by a few cachers placing posts to stick to there rights of what is placed in a cache. Even after it was posted that Tim was in negotiations with Forest Enterprises some still insisted on the right.

 

Now, we as a self-controlling hobby/sport/pastime may find we have a blanket no caches on forestry land. This has not been decided but a decision has already been made about guidelines for caches on their land. There will be no guidelines, basically meaning they will not condone caches on there land.

 

The main point is food and alcohol in caches, basically none.. also being sensitive to wild life, environment, habitat etc. So if they put an area out of bounds for a while we accept that and temp archive caches within that area.

 

This by the way is now all academic, the hard work, money and time spent on this by Tim has been wasted by a few who can not see that there are times to stand and times to conform.

 

They will now, not negotiate. They can see that we can not police ourselves so therefore are doing it for us. This means that a possible 1,000000 hectares of land could be out of bounds. If the same is followed by English Nature then that is well over another 60+ thousand hectares of Nature reserves we will have lost.

 

One case where democracy rules and screws it up.

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

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Geocaching in the US is very difficult because of blanket bans by the National Parks Authority, but relatively easy because much land is "public" owned.

 

Not so here, of course, and our growing profile and popularity forces us to confront the issue otherwise Geocaching will die (I could say "or go underground" but won't want to be misunderstood).

 

It's essential that we follow our own rules and guidelines so that it is possible negotiate with the authorities and ensure our survival.

 

I'd like to thank T&J for the time, effort and money that they've put into trying to make this work for all of us.

 

Dave

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We thought a forum is a place to give your opinions, our own post on that thread included IOHO.

 

We always follow the rules and guidelines regardless of our own opinions, and I thought this was the case for nearly all geocachers.

 

We never have and never will put anything edible in a cache, but IOHO some sealed drinks would be ok.

 

There is a big difference between an opinion and an action.

 

Sounds like a cop-out to us.

 

Tech-no notice

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I can see their point. Our own guidelines say "no foodstuffs, drugs alcohol or tobacco products" and it is plain that some of our own people ignore that guideline. They can therefore have no confidence that we will obey any rules put in place by themselves.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

 

[This message was edited by jeremyp on March 10, 2003 at 03:03 AM.]

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There was a long discussion here about asking permission. To repeat my comment then: 'ask a committee for permission and the easy answer is no' all the time, every time, the answer will be no.

The amount of impact on the land from caching is so minor as to be not worth mentioning, any 'reason' citing unauthorised food and alcohol is merely a smokescreen. The answer was always going to be no.

I too am sorry about the amount of time and effort Tim has put into this and I have to say it was a waste of time from the start.

I believe we now have a very serious problem, what other organisation is now going to give permission? Will the National Trust demand that caches on their land be removed? Will all caches on Forestry Commission land be banned? All land in this country is either owned or managed by someone and that someone is going to look to the big organisations and see what their policy is. If that policy is to refuse caches then we can say goodbye to the sport in this country.

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quote:
Originally posted by naffita:

I too am sorry about the amount of time and effort Tim has put into this and I have to say it was a waste of time from the start.


With all due respect, unless you were taking part in the negotiation I don't see how you can conclude this. The argument that committees always say no doesn't work. I know lots of committees that have said "yes" to things, and have even been part of a few myself!

 

When I spoke with Tim and June a while ago they gave me the impression that the discussions were very constructive and positive at that point.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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Hmm - I would have thought that in this instance the easy option would have been to say "yes, please feel free to place caches". Isn't it actually a more difficult option for them to say "no" because they then have have to police the ban and answer letters from disgruntled geocachers on their policy etc, instead of just letting people get on with it?

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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Look at it from their point of view. A few letters from non-members (us) will not count. When they have to answer to their own members it will be better to say 'We kept away these people who wanted to tramp all over the place'. They as a committee will not be prepared to make a case for us and possibly have to justify that decision when the minutes of the committee are read out at their AGM.

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I've never placed food in a cache, but I don't believe there's a hard and fast rule against it. It's mentioned in the Guide to Creating and Hiding a Cache (the key word being 'guide'), but not in the Cache Listing Requirements. If it wasn't allowed, cache pages which say 'contains ' would never be approved.

 

Seems to me they're judging us on whether we stick to a rule that hasn't been implemented yet.

 

SimonG.org

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quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:

Seems to me they're judging us on whether we stick to a rule that hasn't been implemented yet.


 

We shouldn't be introverted in considering if this is a rule or not, but think about what is acceptable to such landowners.

 

It's their land, so they'll decide if they want people leaving food there. If we want an approval then we have to comply.

 

We can't bury our heads in the sand. The Genie is out of the bottle, let's agree the way forwards.

 

Dave

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quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:

Seems to me they're judging us on whether we stick to a rule that hasn't been implemented yet.


Geocaching.com has operated without RULES since its inception. This I think is a deliberate philosophy adopted by Jeremy/Groundspeak to treat us all as adults. They hope that we can recognise that guidlines are necassary and that we will be responsible enough to abide by them, even where we disagree with them.

 

I can see how an outside agency would take the view that it is a total waste of their time to discuss setting "guidelines" for leaving caches on their property, when it has been shown so publicly that we do not follow the "guidelines" that we already have.

 

To quote from geocaching.com

Do not put food in a cache!

 

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because of food items in a cache. Please do not put food in a cache.

 

It seems to me that if you don't feel that you can comply with the "guidelines" set out on geocaching.com, then it's time to move on elsewhere.

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As a matter of fact, we were approached by them because they were concerned about making caches unavailable for a two months a year whilst deer rutt and fawn, and certain other areas whilst timber is being harvested etc. (for resasons of safety). From that approach we have worked our way through some very helpful and considerate people. Not at comittee level but at those who make the decisions.

 

Therefore, we are sure that we were close to the "Holy Grail" of geocaching.

 

It's not just food that is a concern, alcohol, matches & cigarette lighters (among other things) were a significant worry. The scenario: a youngster finds a cache and decides to light a small bonfire in his "camp" with his mates. It's no good suggesting that kids should not go that far away from home unattended by parents, most forests are adjacent to housing at some point and many kids will cycle into the nearby forest to play. Nobody wants a few hundred hectares of forest burned down. We had assured them that cachers were responsible enough and quoted our guidelines, which was acceptable. Egg on the face time for us.

 

C'mon you guys, the guidelines are there for a reason, to protect our sport and Geocaching.com and they should be adhered to. End of story.

 

It has been mentioned that they are called "guidelines". That's true, during our discussions with these bodies we decided that calling them guidelines would more likely get people to follow them out of courtesy and responsibility. Hard and fast rules would not engender a feeling of pleasant helpfulness and people would try to find a loophole and follow the letter rather than the spirit of the ruling.

 

At English Nature things are not at such an advanced stage. Three of our caches have been placed with permission and are being watched. There is still a long way to go but in light of recent events I'm not sure that we want to continue.

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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icon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gificon_frown.gif

This is really really sad news, I'm sure T&J are a lot more fed up than their mail suggests. It is a shame that their hardwork has come to nothing.

 

Did they say if they will advise their people against caching? or would local arangments still be valid?

 

Just wondering if there is nothing we can suggest to them recover this - perhaps a different operating procedure for caches on their land. Perhaps requiring that cache owners visit regularly or a note stating explicitly what is not allowed in these caches...just thinking out loud really.

 

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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At this stage of the game it is definite "There is no more to be said"..

 

All we can do is try and be positive and come up with positive ideas and thoughts that may pave the way.

 

At this moment in time I think it is advisable to let the dust settle and to see if they, at a later date, in the summer perhaps, will be prepared to go back into dialog.

 

One thought I have had is on the lines of Letterboxing, a container with a Logbook and Stamp and that is the sole content. Remember that this is just for forestry land, still lots of places to plant traditional caches.

 

What we do not want is what we have being eroded by non-conformance

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

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quote:
Originally posted by The Wombles:

quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:

Seems to me they're judging us on whether we stick to a rule that hasn't been implemented yet.


 

We shouldn't be introverted in considering if this is a rule or not, but think about what is acceptable to such landowners.

 

It's their land, so they'll decide if they want people leaving food there. If we want an approval then we have to comply.


Oh absolutely. I just meant that they seem to be assuming we'd break their rules as to what we can place on their land on the basis that people don't always stick to the current guidelines. I can see their point, but I don't think it's a legitimate comparison, and I'm pretty sure they're wrong.

 

SimonG.org

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quote:
Originally posted by Slytherin:

To quote from geocaching.com

_Do not put food in a cache!

 

Food items are ALWAYS a BAD IDEA. Animals have better noses than humans, and in some cases caches have been chewed through and destroyed because of food items in a cache. Please do not put food in a cache._


Well, that's a function of cache container really. Again, it's a common sense thing. Poor quality, chewable boxes, with unsealed food inside - bad idea.

 

Foil-wrapped sealed food, in an airtight ziplock bag, in an airtight ammo box? I cannot see any animal getting into one of my ammo boxes.

 

Most 'merkins seem to use cheap plastic containers from what I've heard, so those rules would apply. But sense, on an individual basis, rather than a sweeping generalisation ought to prevail.

 

quote:
It seems to me that if you don't feel that you can comply with the "guidelines" set out on geocaching.com, then it's time to move on elsewhere.

 

So be it. I'm off. Toodle-oo. Ta ta. Adiós. Farewell.

 

Goodbye.

 

--

Huga

"This is warrant officer Huga of the mining ship Geocaching. Signing off."

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quote:
Originally posted by jeremyp:

 

This is ridiculous. To chuck the sport in just because of one small rule which has always been there and has virtually _zero_ impact on the nature of geocaching is totally stupid.

 


 

It's not just the 'rule'.

It the way the game is going, and has gone in recent months. It's the people that partake in it, and their attitude stowards each other (including what my own towards others has become). It's the fact that people call my actions ridiculous and totally stupid. It's the way that's it's all turned into a nasty mess and a big numebrs game. It's the way that this nice sedate game that I found totally by accident has swollen into something that needs policing. Is that selfish of me? yes. Am I wrong not to want 'outsiders' to find and join the game? probably. But heck, that's how it goes.

 

I'm just fed up of the constant bickering that this game and these forums have turned into. I'm not blaming anyone in particular, and I am probably (read what you like for that word) to blame as much as anyone else.

 

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

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You clearly enjoy geocaching so don't give it up because of a web forum! Seriously, life is more important and there are definately better things to worry about!

 

Everyone in life has different opinions and you can't get on with everyone - just agree to disagree on some stuff.

 

Personally i think food as long as its sealed inside an ammo box is fine (it'd take a hearty critter to get into one of them - heck, i have trouble undoing them sometimes - yup, i'm a weakling!!). However, if a landowner doesn't want us to put food in a cache on their land then its fair enough! Respect their wishes, its only polite! To decide you're gonna stop caching because of this is a really rash decision!

 

As for the influx of new people that have come in lately, i'm one of them and i respect geocaching and what its about. I am aware that new people offend some of the more experienced cachers but i can't do anything about that apart from quitting and i'm not gonna do that in a hurry! (That wasn't meant to sound nasty, it's not meant in a horrible way!)

 

So, my point was, live and let live, and don't give up in such a hurry!

 

Love Jaq

xxx

 

When you wish upon a star...

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quote:
Originally posted by Huga:

It's the fact that people call my actions ridiculous and totally stupid.


If you were going to quit just because of the no food rule, then yes it would be ridiculous and stupid of you IMHO, but it looks like you actually have other potentially more valid reasons too in which case I apologise for the implication.

quote:

I'm just fed up of the constant bickering that this game and these forums have turned into.


Well the forums and the game are not the same thing. You could happily spend years geocaching and not go near the forums at all. I don't know how long you have been a forum member, but they haven't changed much since I started reading them (November 2001). In fact compared to some of the threads that were around at that time, this is incredibly civilised.

quote:

I am probably (read what you like for that word) to blame as much as anyone else.


Well you are responsible for some of what the forums are, but I would describe your contribution as positive which is why you'll be a loss to the community if you do bugger off.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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quote:
Originally posted by Christianna:

However, if a landowner doesn't want us to put food in a cache on their land then its fair enough! Respect their wishes, its only polite!


 

And what about the wishes of the owner of this website ?

 

And how do you stop animals trying to get at the food they smell (even in an ammo box) and uncovering the cache, thus exposing it to casual passers by ?

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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Personally i would never put food in a cache and i think that it's the wrong thing to do but thats just me!! What can i do about all the other cachers?????!!!!????

 

If i find food in a cache then i take it out and bin it because it shouldn't be there but i can't stop people placing it in there in the first place especially as being new i carry about as much clout as a ball of cotton wool! If they're going to place it then they will so i would rather that they did it somewhere where animals can't get to it like in an ammo box. As for critters scratching about, it wouldn't happen if people followed the rules but unfortunately they don't (see this topic!!!)

 

Sorry for offering an opinion, thought that was what the forum was about! Didn't mean to offend!

 

Love Jaq

xxx

 

When you wish upon a star...

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quote:
Originally posted by Christianna:

 

Sorry for offering an opinion, thought that was what the forum was about!


 

Oh sorry, my apologies, I misunderstood where you said :

 

quote:
Originally posted by Christianna:

Personally i think food as long as its sealed inside an ammo box is fine (it'd take a hearty critter to get into one of them - heck, i have ...


 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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I'm not being very clear today - i have flu, it's probably my fault! I am aware that my two posts on this thread are a bit contradictory but i mean that if you must place food then please let it be in an ammo box which is hard to get into. I'm not condoning it!

 

Oh, i'm so confused now - my head hurts!!!

 

Love Jaq

xxx

 

When you wish upon a star...

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(Takes deep breath)

 

I reread my, and a few other posts re food/drink/sharp objects in caches. And I didn't think them too outof order BUT I can see how others might.

 

I noted that T&J said never put food in cache... exceptions may be tinned goods... I have no intention to condone food or drink placed contrary to guidelins but just to show that we are all capable of interpreting differently.

 

What is the issue?

Is it potential harm to wildlife? If so I am sure the average cache is a riot of smells that could attract animals no matter how well sealed eg a Mctoy in its wrapper will still smell of burger and chips to a wild animal. No excuse to add smelly things but it sets a context.

 

Is it the litter? If the only litter were caches how clean the parks would be. Again I set the context.

 

I don't know the organisation you speak of, but in NI the Dept of Ag own most of the forests. Drinking dens, glue sniffing car dumping and other issues keep them busy. Is well concealed tupperware more of a blight than acres of evergreen working forest on the landscape? context and perspective. I caravan in most of the parks/forest here and that undoubtly gives problem to the forestry management, as does mountain biking, pony treking and hill walking BUT it is seen as part of a managed strategy for public use and enjoyment of the land.

 

I respect their duty to protect that which they manage but contest that in perspective geocaching is not a destructive hobby nor should a few minor transgressions be a bar to enjoyment of the land.

 

Thank you for staying awake

 

Lance

It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses.

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I'm dismayed that a some people can't see beyond the guideline and move on. The guideline clearly asks people not to place certain items in caches, and yet some people insist on continuing.

To an outside body (like Forest Enterprise) that can only suggest that there is no point in spending time drawing up guidelines.

To dwell on much earlier point, I am fairly certain that part of the charter for Forest Enterprise cahrges them with making the land they manage as accessable as possible for recreation, but not at the expense of the flora and fauna, and without compromising anyones safety.

We have now hurt ourselves by bringing an end to our dialogue with them. I'm certain no one would want to compromise their safety by entering a part of Forest where logging operations are ongoing. I'm equally certain that you wouldn't want to disturb sensitive wildlife (rare birds nesting, Badgers) or destroy rare flowers. These can all be done most effectively through ignorance, which will be the case if we do not convince FE that by informing us we will abide by their wishes and respect their rules.

If you really fel unable to abide by guidelines for the good of all then we as a group will rapidly be relegated to the same level as those nice people that Dan (or was it Pid) stumbled across recently.

 

Mark

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OK, this is a difficult thing to articulate, so sorry in advance to anybody who is inadvertently offended by the contents of this posting - it's *genuinely* not intended as any kind of dig at the mods, who do a fantastic job (even under conditions of great provocation!)

 

but...

 

The topic of this thread struck a chord with me: "Democracy rules, and screws it up".

 

Is the UK geocaching community really a democracy? While I was *dimly* aware that T+J were up to something regarding the establishment of geocaching policies with the likes of Forest Enterprises, I had no idea that things were quite as far along as they apparently were. Or (more significantly) that negotiations were not moving in our favour.

 

I sense that a rather major decision has been made about the future of geocaching in the UK, to which the majority of us were either (1)blissfully unaware, (2)unable to contribute an opinion, or (3)unwittingly undermining by posting inappropriate messages to the forums at a strategically important time.

 

Is it just me who feels out of the loop on this one? Or was there an thread somewhere that I missed?

 

I appreciate that it's not always appropriate for decisions to be made "by committee"... but I do think it's reasonable to expect a certain degree of transparency (and with it, accountability) when people have taken it upon themselves to be our representatives in issues quite as important as this.

 

This kind of leads on to the crux of the issue. Clearly, T+J have moved above and beyond the role of what most people would consider "moderator" - they've become something of a spokesperson/representative for geocaching in the UK in general. Now, I have to state very clearly here that I *personally* think they do a very good job (especially thinking back to the mod ant fiasco a month or two ago, and I was among the many who said as much at the time, both on-forum and in personal correspondance) - but this seems to be a role that has been "thrust upon them", rather than the one they were specifically elected to (that being: keeping the forums in order). It strikes me that if, for better or worse, the UK geocaching community has reached the point where it's necessary to interact with the likes of major landowners, then things really should be a little less haphazard. Yes, by all means T+J should be our spokesperson(s); they do a great job, and their work is appreciated - but stuff like this should be done with the support of the community, not negotiated behind closed doors, with the final result "sprung" on us out of the blue. God knows I'm no fan of beurocracy, but when it comes to major negotiations like this, we really do need to maximise on the opinions/talents/skills/strengths of the community at large to win ourselves the best possible outcome.

 

Maybe we need to think about how this could be done, ready for next time.

 

...and there *will* be a next time.

 

John TGS

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quote:
Originally posted by The Good Shepherds:

 

Is it just me who feels out of the loop on this one? Or was there an thread somewhere that I missed?


 

We did try. See here

 

quote:
Originally posted by The Good Shepherds:

This kind of leads on to the crux of the issue. Clearly, T+J have moved above and beyond the role of what most people would consider "moderator" -


 

After we became moderators, Jeremy Irish, after pressure from us in the UK about approving caches and the differences between UK and USA asked us to become admins. Perhaps we have overstepped our boundries, but who else is there to do the job ?

 

But June and I thank you for your support.

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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It seems to me that NO FOOD STUFF + DRINK should be in a cache.

I support this site due to the peoiple and the Idea of shairing the gre8 outdoors with my family.

That is all of the globe.

I understand about restricted areas, but forestry comition land is vast, if we adheard to the GO rules then we would have had access.

I run an enviromenatly friendly site, help for people who want to be green in their living.

Geocaching seemed a gr8 place for people to explore the gr8 outdoors and help them to appreciate the green stuff that is out their and maybe help them to think about what they are doing.

With this ruling we as country side lovers have less of an impact now, to help people change their ways.

 

T&J it's gr8 to see people out there willing to fight the cause.

A geocachers abide by the guidelines as they help the administraitors to claim lands for US TO HIDE CACHES.

 

LOL

icon_smile.gif

 

Kids Caches and Mayhem what a day in celtic tribal city.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:

We did try. See here.


Not only did Tim and June alert us to their discussions in the thread hilighted in their post above, but in the thread "Some thoughts for new cachers" they explicitly stated:

quote:

On a more serious note, We have been working with "Forest Enterprise" and "English Nature" to try to establish a corporate type of decision on caching, Both have said they do not want foodstuffs or the list of other things we have given, left in caches on the land they manage.


I'm not sure how much more warning people need.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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Is there now a ban on forestry commission land?

I suppose if permission is not forthcoming there is a ban.

So since we are law abiding citizens we will not plant caches in the forests.

Therefore all rubbish will come from non geocachers.

So to stop forest litter FC should ban people who aren't geocaching.

Except most forest litter is caused by trees, so obviously they should ban trees.

 

Seriously, I'm a little concerned here, we have a hobby, which encourages access to the countryside. The slight possibility that someone may break the rules and put alcohol in a cache (I'd say 1-2% based on found caches so far) means that we can't cache in the woods, despite cache in trash out actions.

If only 1-2% of the UK population broke rules we would have no courts, no speed cameras, no crime- heres the 2002 figures http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2123249.stm

Of course the forums only represent a percentage of UK cachers, so any opinion is also skewed, but I leave that to the statisticians amongst us to sort out.

 

Personally I'd like to know if negotiations are truly beyond repair.

Cache the Bug-Geocaching

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A few months ago, the Mod Ant scenario suggested a notion that many of us had not considered before. That caches may be seen as litter.

 

That view is based upon the presumption that geocaches are disgarded property left in the countryside. Of course, we argue differently (well, we would, wouldn't we?).

 

Caches are maintained, and often removed/archived once they have served their purpose, and are placed so as to infringe as little as possible upon their surroundings.

 

The Mod Ant fiasco served to remind us all that we should remember that others have different views, and understand our activity differently.

 

It seems to me that the current dilemma is an extension of this.

 

The FC would be perfectly right to ban what could be construed as litter (our term: caches) on their land if all they had seen of our sport is a thread of people bickering about whether or not leaving food outside (for critters to potentially feed at?) is a good idea or not.

 

We have a responsibility in the countryside. By our very being there, we will impact upon it... but then, so does everyone else.

 

Instead, I feel we should promote the more positive aspects of our sport - Caching in, Trashing Out. Leaving responsible items in the caches. Encouraging children to enjoy nature at its finest... but above all to respect other peoples opinions, and their rules.

 

As an activity - a global one at that - we can, nay must make a change. There is little point in being indifferent about this. We are the ones who enjoy and benefit from the countryside, and it is therefore us who have the duty to keep it the way that it is.

 

Right, now that's over with, does anyone have a stepladder? I need to get off my horse, and it appears to be rather high...

 

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

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quote:
Originally posted by Tim & June:

We did try. See http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=1500909683&m=6270987645


 

Thanks for the reminder - as I originally said, I I was *dimly* aware that something was going on, and presumed there was some kind of thread I was missing - It's just a shame the original thread surfaced just before that palava with the mod ants happened icon_frown.gif ...there are a few good comments raised - offers of help from the wombles, a request for elaboration from jeremyp - then nothing. 2 months later we get told "too bad guys, talking about food in caches blew it for us."

 

*sigh* ...maybe this is all just misdirected frustration. Waking up on a morning to find out that big chunks of the country are now out-of-bounds as far as caching goes is a bad way to start the day.

 

On a more positive note: anybody planning a trash out event for "earth day"? - might be a good opportunity to gather PR which paints our hobby in a slightly better light.

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Having just found Geocaching it saddens me to see something that is such a simple & pleasurable pastime (Fun for all the members of the family etc) threatened by those who seem unable to follow guidelines which IMHO seem to be just plain old common sense.

 

I can't for the life of me see why anyone would want to do otherwise - many of the posts with seeming objections to the guidelines come from people who have been doing this for far longer than I have - have the guidelines in some way impaired your enjoyment??

 

& whilst i'm whining away i'm compelled to let Huga know he's got my goat (way back up the thread)

 

Quote:-

"Am I wrong not to want 'outsiders' to find and join the game? probably. But heck, that's how it goes"

 

Basically yes you are wrong.

Old hands should be out there promoting Geocaching to others.

I take it that you were an outsider too once??

 

We take our children everywhere, but they always find their way back home...

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quote:
Originally posted by The Good Shepherds:

On a more positive note: anybody planning a trash out event for "earth day"? - might be a good opportunity to gather PR which paints our hobby in a slightly better light.


 

Are you organising it? I could think of some areas that could do with a tidy up.

 

...no, not my house, I meant cache sites! icon_rolleyes.gif

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For my part as a newcomer to this past time I'm quite happy to accept the guidelines and not leave food/alcohol/sharp pointy things in a cache. (If found I would probably remove them).

 

This was my initial understanding of 'what it was all about' when I first came across the hobby and I'm OK with it.

 

If forests and other areas become cache deserts it will limit my cache hunting trips somewhat - my diesel budget has a finite limit!

 

motley. adj. varied in appearance or character.

crew. n. group of people.

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quote:
Well, that's a function of cache container really. Again, it's a common sense thing. Poor quality, chewable boxes, with unsealed food inside - bad idea.

Foil-wrapped sealed food, in an airtight ziplock bag, in an airtight ammo box? I cannot see any animal getting into one of my ammo boxes


You are probebly right that it is perfectly safe (unless of course the farmer starts keeping Elephants in the field icon_biggrin.gificon_biggrin.gif)But (rightly or wrongly) this is not the view those who manage the countryside seem to take. They may IYHO be wrong - but is it worth antagonising these people? Look all good relationships, our relationship with landowners/managers will have to involve some compromise - you might be right, but food in caches is not one of the great moral debates of our age. IMHO for the freedom to place (and find) caches a few compromises seem worth it.

 

quote:
It the way the game is going, and has gone in recent months. It's the people that partake in it, and their attitude towards each other.

"The forum is not the game and the game is not the forum" I am of the opinion that things round here haven't changed much over the last year or so (things are certainly much quieter than during the fiasco that shall not be named). Perhaps after the Mod Ant saga it is easy to read every posting as an attack, but very few actually are.

 

quote:
It's the way that's it's all turned into a nasty mess and a big numebrs game.
Ahhh the "Are numbers important?" chestnut. Well "be carefull what you measure - because what you measure becomes important!". I fell a long ramble comming on so I suggest that if people want to discuss this we move to a new topic.

 

quote:
It's the way that this nice sedate game that I found totally by accident has swollen into something that needs policing. Is that selfish of me? yes. Am I wrong not to want 'outsiders' to find and join the game? probably.
Again a discussion on this will probably go off topic and there have been threads expressing the same concern quite recently. As for needing policing I am afraid that even when there were only a 100-200 caches in the entire country, things needed policing...

 

To summaries the above ramblings - relax things aren't as bad as they may seem.

 

Chris

 

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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We are in no worse a position now that we were before.

 

We had hoped to gain official approval for caching across much of the UK in one fell swoop. This would mean that we would have been recognised as valid users of the countryside with a set of guidelines which we all follow. This would hopefully prevent us having to jump through the hoops that most of the USA has to. As I have said before :

 

quote:

In the USA, there are very tough regulations placed by the authorities on geocaching. No caches are allowed in National Parks and loads of other state parks. In some states you have to get permission from the Rangers before you can place a cache in a state park. In other states, you have to get a licence for each cache you place, full details must be given and approved. The licence lasts just four months after which the cache must be removed or re-licenced. There are LOADS more.


 

As far as we can tell, the additional guidelines they would like to see implemented were along the lines of:

  • Stay away from undergrowth during the month of June when deer give birth and leave their young in the undergrowth.
  • During the month of October deer culling takes place, play safe and stay away.
  • Do not wrap your cache in a plastic bag.
  • Do not place your cache in disused animal holes (this is a criminal offence at least in some parts maybe everywhere)
  • Plus of course the other things already in our guidelines.

 

Perhaps we should take these on board anyway.

 

The bottom line is, we have not lost anything we already had, but we have not gained anything either.

 

Be sensible when you plant/hunt for a cache, disturb as little as possible, and follow the guidelines.

 

In a few months time we will attempt to restart dialogue and attain that recognition that we seek, unless of course there are any objections.

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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T&J are doing a good job acting as UK spoke persons, even if not elected! Considering that there is only a small no of UK cachers who post on the forums and these can't even come to a agrement over food in caches. What chance is there of getting agrement over a spoke person. If they had posted the fact that they were negotiateing in red capital letters altered the posts? On the question of permision, this means going to a sauce of local knowlage, one site I seriusly looked at was in a heritage park wich contains a CAWD site. On checking maps i found i could place a chache over .5 of a mile from the site. I went to get initial permition to place a cache but was refused, not because they were against caching which they thought had pottential to bring in visitors. But because there is '3 Badger setts in the area'. So getting permission to place a cache can ovoid any one breaking the law by accident! As disturbing a Badger sett even by accident is illegal! Mancunian, (I've posted these coments to get people considering why T&J took the action they did on our behalf)

 

I camp to cache!

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I found when I placed my cache King Dicks Downfall. It is located on Bosworth Field. When I aproached the Head Ranger he was more than helpfull in helping me find a sutiable location on the site. I surpose that what I am trying to say is that placeing a cache is common sense if in doubt ask you might be surprised at the response you get from the land owner. It is better to ask and be rejected than just place the cache and have it found by the land owner. As that will only get this pastime into more trouble.

As for what Tim & June are trying to do you keep it up I for one support you in your efforts. I am also sure that many others here feel the same.

 

Mark (TheCat)

 

www.geocacheuk.com

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There is no real organisation to geocaching in the UK. In the absence of any official structure the moderators / approvers have by default taken on the role of "leading" geocaching in the UK.

 

Most of our moderators were appointed at a time when there were only a handful of cachers in the country (before my time) and they probably all knew each other fairly well, so they were probably appointed by consensus. Anyway, they generally kept fairly quiet, limiting their actions to strictly doing the job. I do not imply any criticism. I think they've done a good job on the whole and deserve our support and thanks.

 

Tim and June (the latest moderators) seem to be taking a much more proactive role devoting a lot of time and energy to the organisation of caching and promotion etc etc. You could argue that they should have been democratically elected. I would point out that they were democratically elected. We had a forum thread for nominations followed by a poll to elect them - well maybe the poll didn't happen because they were so obviously going to win it. If we had an election now for geocaching spokesperson in the UK, I think the result would be the same.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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