+dylanhayes Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 The thread about geocache challenges reminded me of a crazy idea I had the otherday. Unlike most other caching competitions which are over the course of a day, this would run over days and weeks even, although a players participation during that time might be only a few hours if that. It may be that somebody has thought of something similar, but I have yet to hear of it being done in the UK, and the idea may be ready as there is a decent density of caches now. The idea is a two teams of equal numbers of people (it could even work with two teams of one) each work towards getting a special sort of travel bug (the 'ball' in effect) to the 'goal' of their opponent. The goal is a particular geographical entity, like south of the Watford Gap, or the east or west coast. The 'ball' moves from cache to cache, and is logged at each move so the other team can track it, and attempt to gain control over the 'ball' and move it back in the direction they intend. 'Passing' i.e moving the ball between caches is the tricky part. Each time it moves it has to be logged and is only allowed to move to the next cache in the indended direction of travel, ie a team can't just deliver it straigh to the oppositions goal. This is probably the part that needs clear rules as the system could break down. If that bit can be worked out I can imagine it being fun to have for example a team from either side of the pennines moving this poor bug around trying to to get it to either coast, the game could last for weeks. If there are several people in each team it will not require huge amounts of time to take place, unless you feel a particular need to immediatly move the ball after the other team places it. The game could be run to a time limit, ie it lasts for a month say, or until the first 'goal'. The nice thing about this is that is doesn't require large numbers of new caches to be set (as I think some areas are getting a bit full of caches), and gives players an excuse to revisit a previously logged cache. So. Has something like this been tried already? Anybody have any suggestions for tweaking the rules and who might be interested in a game? ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
+John Stead Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Dylan, you're exercising your grey matter again. If the results anything like the NYMH we should be in for fun. Yes, I'd support the idea, especially if it involved chasing our virtual ball along the M62 from end to end. This could be another War of the Roses. Perhaps the goals should be further apart so more people could be involved - something of a relay? Could this be combined with Dan and Pid's ill founded idea of a Land's End to John o'Groats event? I haven't thought through the possible rules yet and will be interested to see what others think. Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 That sounds like a brilliant idea. I think the rule you should consider would be that any cache you move it to has to be on the first page of the "nearby" caches list. There's 25 per page. Last Sunday I did a cache (Another Good View) which had an object in it which would be most suitable as the "football". As for teams: how about drawing a horizontal line across the country - the teams would be "Southern Ponces" and "Northern B**t**ds". It was a joke! a joke!!! aaaarrggggh (thud). Well actually that wouldn't work, the "football" would just hover about the middle of the country. The teams would have to be distributed evenly around the country. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching [This message was edited by jeremyp on July 26, 2002 at 01:57 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 just a thought, How about using travel bug hotels as goals (with the same number available to each team). That way it would help other bugs move on as well. Chris "We're not lost - we just don't know where we are" London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Dylan, you're a genius! This is probably the best idea ever! The way I imagine it, you would have two specific caches as goals (maybe in Land's End and John O'Groats, as jstead suggests), and start the bug in a cache halfway between the two. The goals could be existing caches, but the starting point should probably be a new one, the position of which could be posted at kick-off. quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:Each time it moves it has to be logged and is only allowed to move to the next cache in the indended direction of travel, ie a team can't just deliver it straigh to the oppositions goal. But they could, under this system, deliver it straight to the opposition's goal by simply stopping briefly at other caches along the route. Maybe there should be a rule that any player can only move the bug once, or at least not twice in a row. quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:I think the rule you should consider would be that any cache you move it to has to be on the first page of the "nearby" caches list. There's 25 per page. It might be simpler to say any cache within x miles - this would also add an element of strategy, because if you didn't plan ahead in sparse areas it would become necessary to backtrack. The other thing we have to work out is teams. It would be best if anyone could play, without having to join up beforehand - maybe we could use some automatic means of determining which team everyone's in, something like 'odd-number-of-characters-user-names v even-number-of-characters-user-names'. One last thought: if either team violates the rules (i.e. by moving the bug too far), that team can't touch it for x hours. Working out a good value for x would be tricky - we'd have to take a guess at how fast the game will move. Now you can all tell me why these ideas are rubbish. SimonG Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 Dylan, you're a genius! This is probably the best idea ever! The way I imagine it, you would have two specific caches as goals (maybe in Land's End and John O'Groats, as jstead suggests), and start the bug in a cache halfway between the two. The goals could be existing caches, but the starting point should probably be a new one, the position of which could be posted at kick-off. quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:Each time it moves it has to be logged and is only allowed to move to the next cache in the indended direction of travel, ie a team can't just deliver it straigh to the oppositions goal. But they could, under this system, deliver it straight to the opposition's goal by simply stopping briefly at other caches along the route. Maybe there should be a rule that any player can only move the bug once, or at least not twice in a row. quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:I think the rule you should consider would be that any cache you move it to has to be on the first page of the "nearby" caches list. There's 25 per page. It might be simpler to say any cache within x miles - this would also add an element of strategy, because if you didn't plan ahead in sparse areas it would become necessary to backtrack. The other thing we have to work out is teams. It would be best if anyone could play, without having to join up beforehand - maybe we could use some automatic means of determining which team everyone's in, something like 'odd-number-of-characters-user-names v even-number-of-characters-user-names'. One last thought: if either team violates the rules (i.e. by moving the bug too far), that team can't touch it for x hours. Working out a good value for x would be tricky - we'd have to take a guess at how fast the game will move. Now you can all tell me why these ideas are rubbish. SimonG Quote Link to comment
evilrooster Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 You're going to need a ref, for a number of reasons: 1. To determine when the ball has been moved too far, etc, etc. 2. To determine & adjust the value of timeouts (eg, for the ball being moved too far). 3. To rebalance the teams if needed. 4. To be the scapegoat, be called blind, be insulted, and have all his/her decisions questioned. evilrooster -the email of the species is deadlier than the mail- Quote Link to comment
+Team Minim Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 I'm just about to release two TBs in the next 2 weeks, one Ben D Alien, is about to be hunted by the Alien Chaser. Both have the goal of getting to a particular cache. It did occur to me that there might be people keener on helping the Alien, or the Chaser. If you're pro-Alien help him north, if you're anti alien, take him south. The reverse for the Alien Chaser. Didn't think about particular rules or teams though, as ever Dylan, you're a Star! Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher! Quote Link to comment
philgn Posted July 26, 2002 Share Posted July 26, 2002 I think any idea that might inject a bit of excitement into the game must be good, but its difficult to overcome apathy. Another idea could be that each team moves the ball in turn, once a cache has been used it cant be used again, and the ball has to be put in a cache on the nearest minute, in the intended direction, i.e N51.14.000 to N51.15.000. so you could end up with the only available cache in the outer hebridies.A bit of strategy would be needed Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 27, 2002 Share Posted July 27, 2002 Another thought - how about you're not allowed to move the bug to a cache with another travel bug in it? That way, either side could move them round strategically to block the other team. I love the idea that every travel bug in the country could then participate! SimonG Quote Link to comment
+dylanhayes Posted July 27, 2002 Author Share Posted July 27, 2002 It sounds like there could be several variations on the rules. This is fine as long as everyone agrees to them up front! The 'War of the Roses' sounds interesting, as would a north vs south game. In fact there's no reason two can't run at the same time. Making sure the geographic area covered is not too vast might be good as the game might stall if the 'ball' ends up on the Isle of Lewis and the nearest player is in Edinburgh. As many have pointed out there needs to be some way of stopping the 'ball' moving too far too fast. One easy way might be that the same team can't pickup the ball after it has been dropped off until the next day, although the other team is free to move it as soon as they know it is there. A set of gentlemens rules to ensure that nobody did anything unsporting like not logging the new location in a timely manner (so the other team doesn't know where it is) would also need to be agreed. I believe the geocaching site allows non owners to watch a tbug, which makes it easy to follow the game as a player/referee/spectator. Disallowing revisits may be only work in well cached areas, but again is a variation which can be agreed up front. Although it is something else the ref needs be aware of (although it is easy to see which caches a bug has already visited by visiting the bugs home page). As regards the rule about which caches a bug can next move on to, this can vary as long as it is decided up front, as some areas it may have to be the five nearest, and others it could be within a certain distance. In either case working out if the move is legal is easy via the geocaching site, although unless you have a laptop with you, it's not so easy to do in the field. I was interested to hear people's ideas for team selection, as I had not thought about it in detail, but I had assumed geography would dictate team membership. I would think that some way to make teams share some common trait and continuity would be good for the game as this has contributed to the sucess of the various online 'clans' for first person shooters. It would be nice to introduce a team element to an otherwise solitary passtime. Prehaps if the game took off in a big way, geocaching.com could include team membership in a user's profile, allowing team statistics and other trivia to be displayed. Thus people would be able to brag about the sucess of their team as well as the number of caches they have found. One other rule might be to allow only passing to existing caches as creating impossible to find caches to pass the bug too would not be fair, and disputes would be inevitable. I'm not sure how well a specific cache as a goal would work, as it would be pretty easy to block the final move towards the goal, especially if the number of caches which allowed access to the goal was very limited. It might result in the game turning into a stalemate as no team could score. It depends if you want a game with lots of goals and a fixed time limit or a game played until the first goal. But, as this was just a crazy idea, I'm keen to hear any well argued case for shaping the rules as a result of somebody thinking long and hard about something. Anyway, let's carry on this online brainstorming as I'm pleased to idea seem to actually be something that people would find fun. If we can agree to some basic rules and the variations then we are in a good position to have the first trial game. I'm not sure I have time to play at present, but I would be happy to ref. PS. Any ideas for a catchy name for this? Bug ball is rather poor first try. ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 29, 2002 Share Posted July 29, 2002 quote:Disallowing revisits may be only work in well cached areas You need to be careful with this - if you can't visit the same cache twice, there is the potential to 'paint yourself into a corner' as it were. In practice it would probably be unlikely, but we shouldn't knowingly introduce a bug into the system (pun intended). quote:In either case working out if the move is legal is easy via the geocaching site, although unless you have a laptop with you, it's not so easy to do in the field. True, but it's easy enough to work out where you're going to deposit the bug before you leave the house. quote:I was interested to hear people's ideas for team selection, as I had not thought about it in detail, but I had assumed geography would dictate team membership. I see a problem with this. Suppose the teams are Southerners and Northerners, and Southerners have to get the bug some place down south, and Northerners have to get it some place up north. As soon as the bug starts to travel north (say), the Northerners have a big advantage (less far to travel), so it will get even further north, so their advantage will increase... so either team only needs a slight lead and victory is assured. Conversely, if the Northerners have to get the bug down south and vice versa, it will just hover round the Midlands for the same reason. That's why I suggested a non-geographical method of team selection. quote:One other rule might be to allow only passing to existing caches as creating impossible to find caches to pass the bug too would not be fair, and disputes would be inevitable. Agreed. Only caches that existed before kickoff should be allowed. quote:I'm not sure how well a specific cache as a goal would work, as it would be pretty easy to block the final move towards the goal, especially if the number of caches which allowed access to the goal was very limited. Block how? You may be referring to my suggestion that other bugs can act as defenders. In that case, you're quite right, I never thought of that. So either A) The goal is something less specific than a single cache, We abandon the defender idea, or C) Someone comes up with a clever solution. quote:It depends if you want a game with lots of goals and a fixed time limit or a game played until the first goal. Personally I prefer the latter, but for no good reason. quote:PS. Any ideas for a catchy name for this? Bug ball is rather poor first try. 'Bugger'... no, maybe not. SimonG Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 This is getting too complicated. For the first attempt let's keep the rules very simple. That's why I suggested you can only move the bug to a cache on the first page of nearest caches to the one it came from. It makes it very easy to check if a move is legal. My proposed rules would be: - Two teams. - Designate two caches a long way apart as the goals. - Designate a third cache as the centre spot where the bug starts from. - Anybody can pick up the bug and place it in a cache that was on the page of nearest caches to that cache on the day before the bug was picked up. The last rule is worded like that to avoid arguments about whether a move was legal if a new cache is posted on the same day as the bug was moved. All you have to do is print out the nearest caches before going out in the morning and you are guaranteed to be placing it in a legal position. - The bug must be replaced the same day (prevents hoarding) - An infringement of the rules results in a "free kick" to the opposing team. The bug is placed back in the original cache and the team causing the infringement may not make the first move. - In the event of the bug being lost for any reason (cache pillaging etc) a replacement will be placed in the same cache (or the next nearest one which is not a goal if the cache has been destroyed) and a "drop ball" occurs. - In the event of a team member archiving a cache which has the bug in it, this is a free kick to the opposing team from the next nearest cache. The last rule prevents potential abuse. The rules may not be perfect, but after the first game we can refine them based on experience. For teams I would suggest Manchester United supporters against the rest of us, except there are very few ManU supporters in the Manchester region which could be a problem if we put one of the goals there ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 This is getting too complicated. For the first attempt let's keep the rules very simple. That's why I suggested you can only move the bug to a cache on the first page of nearest caches to the one it came from. It makes it very easy to check if a move is legal. My proposed rules would be: - Two teams. - Designate two caches a long way apart as the goals. - Designate a third cache as the centre spot where the bug starts from. - Anybody can pick up the bug and place it in a cache that was on the page of nearest caches to that cache on the day before the bug was picked up. The last rule is worded like that to avoid arguments about whether a move was legal if a new cache is posted on the same day as the bug was moved. All you have to do is print out the nearest caches before going out in the morning and you are guaranteed to be placing it in a legal position. - The bug must be replaced the same day (prevents hoarding) - An infringement of the rules results in a "free kick" to the opposing team. The bug is placed back in the original cache and the team causing the infringement may not make the first move. - In the event of the bug being lost for any reason (cache pillaging etc) a replacement will be placed in the same cache (or the next nearest one which is not a goal if the cache has been destroyed) and a "drop ball" occurs. - In the event of a team member archiving a cache which has the bug in it, this is a free kick to the opposing team from the next nearest cache. The last rule prevents potential abuse. The rules may not be perfect, but after the first game we can refine them based on experience. For teams I would suggest Manchester United supporters against the rest of us, except there are very few ManU supporters in the Manchester region which could be a problem if we put one of the goals there ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 30, 2002 Share Posted July 30, 2002 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:This is getting too complicated. For the first attempt let's keep the rules very simple. Fair enough. quote:- Designate two caches a long way apart as the goals. I propose Dunnet Head http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=23573 and The Cornwall Cache http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=18282 These being the closest non-virtual caches to John o'Groats and Land's End respectively. quote:- Designate a third cache as the centre spot where the bug starts from. Maybe Mines a Point in the Peak District http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=24448 This is closer to Land's End in distance, but closer to John o'Groats in cache distribution. I think it's a fair compromise. quote:- Anybody can pick up the bug and place it in a cache that was on the page of nearest caches to that cache on the day before the bug was picked up. We've discussed a few alternatives, but I think this is as good a rule as any. quote:- The bug must be replaced the same day (prevents hoarding) Yes. quote:- An infringement of the rules results in a "free kick" to the opposing team. I don't think it's too important to work out just what the penalty is for every infringement of the rules (though your suggestions seem sensible) - as long as the ref's decision is final, these can be decided as the need arises. quote:For teams I would suggest Manchester United supporters against the rest of us, except there are very few ManU supporters in the Manchester region which could be a problem if we put one of the goals there Looking at a random sample of user profiles, I see that about 50% of us are professional techies. How about Techies v Non-Techies? The only necessary element I can see missing from your proposed rules is something to stop one team from grabbing the bug and taking it straight to its goal, stopping at caches along the way. I think the easiest solution is to say the same person can't move it twice in a row (but not the same team - if they have to take it in turns to move it becomes too much like chess). I would also suggest that we have to stick to the mainland. I don't wish to prevent anyone from joining in, but nor do we want the game to reach a standstill when the bug's deposited on some obscure island in the Irish Sea. Two last points. Firstly, advertising. It's no good announcing kick-off and then finding that only the 8 people who've joined in this thread are playing. We need to make sure every cacher in the country knows about it. Any suggestions? Secondly, the name. I suggested, in jest, that we call it bugger (bug + rugger). It later occurred to me that this isn't far from a decent name - bug + rugby = bugby! Come to think of it, I kinda like my original idea. Bugger, anyone? Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 quote:Originally posted by SimonG: The only necessary element I can see missing from your proposed rules is something to stop one team from grabbing the bug and taking it straight to its goal, stopping at caches along the way. I think the easiest solution is to say the same person can't move it twice in a row (but not the same team - if they have to take it in turns to move it becomes too much like chess). Yes, I agree. I thought of this flaw myself late last night and was going to amend the rules in more or less the way you suggest here. quote: Secondly, the name. I suggested, in jest, that we call it bugger (bug + rugger). It later occurred to me that this isn't far from a decent name - bug + rugby = bugby! Come to think of it, I kinda like my original idea. Yes, I like that name. There might be some censorship issues though. quote:Bugger, anyone? I'd join in. I'd have to be on the techies team (I assume you mean computer techies). It would be quite fun because there might be caching partnerships where one person is a techy and the other isn't. e.g. if I go out caching with el10t things could get interesting. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
+dylanhayes Posted July 31, 2002 Author Share Posted July 31, 2002 I like the suggestions. But, I think that a rule to prevent new caches by any of the players being used might be helpful as if a team member moved the bugball to a purpose built cache that was impossible to find this would break the game. I guess if the rules stipulated that the cache was in the nearest 25 it would stop purpose built caches being used, but somebody might still be tempted to bend the rules and place some special caches out there during the game. The Lands end / John O'Groats game might be a bit adverturous for a first game IMHO. I guess depending on the area for the game teams could agree to any particular variations, i.e. if the goals were a long way apart a wide choice of moves would keep the game flowing nicely, but for a smaller game a smaller number of possible moves might keep it more interesting. Would London to Edinburgh be a good choice for people? It certainly means the majority of UK cachers are near to the possible routes. Although the greater frequency of caches in the SE might mean the play is concentrated there. PS. How many *non* techy players are out there? Speak now, if you can work out how to post your reply ;-) For a really random choice of teams you could use the day of the month you were born: Odds vs. evens. Which should have a fairly even distribution over a group. ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
+Naefearjustbeer Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! Quote Link to comment
+Naefearjustbeer Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:if a team member moved the bugball to a purpose built cache that was impossible to find this would break the game This is why I said: quote:Only caches that existed before kickoff should be allowed. ...but actually I don't think it's too much of a problem. If we go with the rule that the same person can't move the bug twice in a row, planting it somewhere that it couldn't be found would be as big a disadvantage for your own team as for the opposition - unless, I suppose, someone hid the bug and then tipped off their team-mates where to find it. I would hope that we could trust people not to cheat so flagrantly (this is supposed to be for fun!), but perhaps the no-caches-created-after-kickoff rule is worthwhile to avoid disputes. quote:How many *non* techy players are out there? It's pretty even. Here's a sample based on user-profiles of recent posters to this forum: dylanhayes - Internet systems bodger TECHIE jstead - Retired Surveyor NON-TECHIE jeremyp - Sendmail Consultant TECHIE Chris n Maria - Techie and looking TECHIE/NON-TECHIE SimonG - Software Engineer TECHIE Team Minim - Clinical Knowledge Manager TECHIE philgn - London cab driver NON-TECHIE Rob & Lisa - Software Engineer & Primary School Teacher TECHIE/NON-TECHIE Team Blitz - Tech Support TECHIE Subarite - Engineering Manager TECHIE Lost in Space - Retired NON-TECHIE Mark C Thompson - IT Hardware Technician TECHIE The Hornet - Semi retired/part time courier NON-TECHIE Moss Trooper - University Technician TECHIE Slytherin - Layabout and Hard-working Insurance Claim Supervisor NON-TECHIE Pid - Bin Man NON-TECHIE Lassitude - IT Consultant TECHIE TECHIES: 9 NON-TECHIES: 6 TECHIE/NON-TECHIE TEAMS: 2 If we count mixed teams as non-techies that's 9-8, which is about as close as you can get with an odd number of samples. quote:Originally posted by Naefearjustbeer:And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! So why haven't you planted a cache there yet? Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:if a team member moved the bugball to a purpose built cache that was impossible to find this would break the game This is why I said: quote:Only caches that existed before kickoff should be allowed. ...but actually I don't think it's too much of a problem. If we go with the rule that the same person can't move the bug twice in a row, planting it somewhere that it couldn't be found would be as big a disadvantage for your own team as for the opposition - unless, I suppose, someone hid the bug and then tipped off their team-mates where to find it. I would hope that we could trust people not to cheat so flagrantly (this is supposed to be for fun!), but perhaps the no-caches-created-after-kickoff rule is worthwhile to avoid disputes. quote:How many *non* techy players are out there? It's pretty even. Here's a sample based on user-profiles of recent posters to this forum: dylanhayes - Internet systems bodger TECHIE jstead - Retired Surveyor NON-TECHIE jeremyp - Sendmail Consultant TECHIE Chris n Maria - Techie and looking TECHIE/NON-TECHIE SimonG - Software Engineer TECHIE Team Minim - Clinical Knowledge Manager TECHIE philgn - London cab driver NON-TECHIE Rob & Lisa - Software Engineer & Primary School Teacher TECHIE/NON-TECHIE Team Blitz - Tech Support TECHIE Subarite - Engineering Manager TECHIE Lost in Space - Retired NON-TECHIE Mark C Thompson - IT Hardware Technician TECHIE The Hornet - Semi retired/part time courier NON-TECHIE Moss Trooper - University Technician TECHIE Slytherin - Layabout and Hard-working Insurance Claim Supervisor NON-TECHIE Pid - Bin Man NON-TECHIE Lassitude - IT Consultant TECHIE TECHIES: 9 NON-TECHIES: 6 TECHIE/NON-TECHIE TEAMS: 2 If we count mixed teams as non-techies that's 9-8, which is about as close as you can get with an odd number of samples. quote:Originally posted by Naefearjustbeer:And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! So why haven't you planted a cache there yet? Quote Link to comment
+kennamatic Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 I'd be another non-techie. Or if we move to the odd/even birthdate I'm an odd. Finding your caches - Losing my marbles. Quote Link to comment
+Slytherin Posted July 31, 2002 Share Posted July 31, 2002 quote:Originally posted by SimonG: Slytherin - Layabout and Hard-working Insurance Claim Supervisor NON-TECHIE NON-TECHIE? [This message was edited by Slytherin on August 01, 2002 at 05:42 AM.] Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:It would be quite fun because there might be caching partnerships where one person is a techy and the other isn't. e.g. if I go out caching with el10t things could get interesting. It depends on the definition of "techie". Some people might consider statistics quite technical Rather than tech/non tech, maybe the teams should be based on something more random, for example a function of the geocaching ID that returns one of two values (eg length of name even or odd). That has maybe four advantages over the techie/non-techie method: - unambigous assignment, - any team discussions will involve a wider variety of people for greater interest, - geographical coverage might be better spread within a team (eg rural areas might not have as many techies) - working patterns (and therefore geocaching patterns) will be better varied within a team ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili [This message was edited by el10t on August 01, 2002 at 01:42 AM.] Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:It would be quite fun because there might be caching partnerships where one person is a techy and the other isn't. e.g. if I go out caching with el10t things could get interesting. It depends on the definition of "techie". Some people might consider statistics quite technical Rather than tech/non tech, maybe the teams should be based on something more random, for example a function of the geocaching ID that returns one of two values (eg length of name even or odd). That has maybe four advantages over the techie/non-techie method: - unambigous assignment, - any team discussions will involve a wider variety of people for greater interest, - geographical coverage might be better spread within a team (eg rural areas might not have as many techies) - working patterns (and therefore geocaching patterns) will be better varied within a team ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili [This message was edited by el10t on August 01, 2002 at 01:42 AM.] Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:For a really random choice of teams you could use the day of the month you were born: Odds vs. evens. Which should have a fairly even distribution over a group. Further to my previous post, I think this is a better solution than the techy/non-techy thing (although of course we will have slightly more odds than evens because there are more odd days in the year ) ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:For a really random choice of teams you could use the day of the month you were born: Odds vs. evens. Which should have a fairly even distribution over a group. Further to my previous post, I think this is a better solution than the techy/non-techy thing (although of course we will have slightly more odds than evens because there are more odd days in the year ) ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by el10t:Rather than tech/non tech, maybe the teams should be based on something more random I made that suggestion because I figured something non-random was more likely to encourage friendly rivalry, but I agree that ambiguity would be a problem. Maybe someone can come up with a less ambiguous refinement of the term 'techie'? Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 By "techie" I assumed you meant "person who makes his living in a computer related job". I thought of other splits like|"boys v girls" which is a non-starter - well my impression is that most forum posters are boys. Also, nerds against non-nerds but there again.... Well to get the thing off the ground, we should go for something simple like birthdays or if you want to introduce some rivalry, look at the date everybody logged their first cache then find the median and put everybody who logged a cache before then in the "oldsters" team and everybody who logged their first cache after that date is a "newbie" ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I am a statistician working with computers about 60% of my time, including database management and coding statistical procedures etc but this is slightly different from those of you who build websites, compile code, manage networks, build hardware etc. That's is where the ambiguity lies. At least no-one has suggested doing it by the old playground method where two captains each take it in turns to pick one from the group to be on their teams. As picking turns progress the remaining group gets smaller and smaller and less and less good at the sport and everyone is desperately hoping not to be picked last. Highly embarrassing if, like me, you are totally rubbish at all sports Anyway, on with the game! I suggest the new UK geocaching resource page to set it up, publish rules etc. Perhaps team sign-up could also be via that site? ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I am a statistician working with computers about 60% of my time, including database management and coding statistical procedures etc but this is slightly different from those of you who build websites, compile code, manage networks, build hardware etc. That's is where the ambiguity lies. At least no-one has suggested doing it by the old playground method where two captains each take it in turns to pick one from the group to be on their teams. As picking turns progress the remaining group gets smaller and smaller and less and less good at the sport and everyone is desperately hoping not to be picked last. Highly embarrassing if, like me, you are totally rubbish at all sports Anyway, on with the game! I suggest the new UK geocaching resource page to set it up, publish rules etc. Perhaps team sign-up could also be via that site? ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili Quote Link to comment
+paul.blitz Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 It's all very well saying London to Edinborugh but what about all us hard working people in the south!! I propose " The Walls - The Final Hurdle " as one of the goals (It is a bit of a challenge, as well as the fact that a lot of the London caches are micro-caches) Techies V Non-Techies could be a problem... for example, me and my dad. He is in technical support but I am still in school!! How would this be classed bearing in mind that he owns the GPS!! Therefore something like... Take the person who is the most senior member of the team and see what month they were born in. Then it becomes the Janurary, March, May, July, September and November people V everyone else. I think that the new geocacheuk.com website could well be used to advertise as previously suggested. How about setting up a new forum string for teams to log to say that they definatly could play? Team Blitz Ok, we've found it, now where did we put the car? Quote Link to comment
+paul.blitz Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 It's all very well saying London to Edinborugh but what about all us hard working people in the south!! I propose " The Walls - The Final Hurdle " as one of the goals (It is a bit of a challenge, as well as the fact that a lot of the London caches are micro-caches) Techies V Non-Techies could be a problem... for example, me and my dad. He is in technical support but I am still in school!! How would this be classed bearing in mind that he owns the GPS!! Therefore something like... Take the person who is the most senior member of the team and see what month they were born in. Then it becomes the Janurary, March, May, July, September and November people V everyone else. I think that the new geocacheuk.com website could well be used to advertise as previously suggested. How about setting up a new forum string for teams to log to say that they definatly could play? Team Blitz Ok, we've found it, now where did we put the car? Quote Link to comment
philgn Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Team selection,? I dont like the idea of techies/non-techies, as I've been put in the latter, it sound's possitively defamitory, I know where ctrl,alt,and delete are. As for newbie/oldsters, I'd be an oldie newbie.How about the last two digits of your home phone number, 0-50 in one team 51-99 in the other.The blocking idea I like because of the strategy factor, if all caches between the ball and the goal were blocked, then it could be permissible to jump the caches. Quote Link to comment
+McDeHack Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 I've been told to put my name up as part of the team with the other old boy Philgn. But I don't like football, and I ain't going in goal. Quote Link to comment
+Naefearjustbeer Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Naefearjustbeer:And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! So why haven't you planted a cache there yet? Well I am only new to this game And I thought it would be nice to post a cache somewhere more challenging than John O Groats (and interesting). Most people that come up my way visit John O Groats but if you think that is all there is to see up hear you would be very much mistaken. This is why my first cache placement is somewhere that most locals do not know about let alone tourists. Up until I placed my cache there was only one in Caithness and it is not at John O Groats either! I could easily plant a cache near John O Groats for the purpose of this proposed game of Bugger if you want. Although I dont know how close the next nearest geocacher is to further the game. As far as I can see they are probally over 100 miles south from here. Quote Link to comment
+Naefearjustbeer Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Naefearjustbeer:And whats wrong with John O Groats!!! its about 15 minutes from my house. LOL!! So why haven't you planted a cache there yet? Well I am only new to this game And I thought it would be nice to post a cache somewhere more challenging than John O Groats (and interesting). Most people that come up my way visit John O Groats but if you think that is all there is to see up hear you would be very much mistaken. This is why my first cache placement is somewhere that most locals do not know about let alone tourists. Up until I placed my cache there was only one in Caithness and it is not at John O Groats either! I could easily plant a cache near John O Groats for the purpose of this proposed game of Bugger if you want. Although I dont know how close the next nearest geocacher is to further the game. As far as I can see they are probally over 100 miles south from here. Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted August 1, 2002 Share Posted August 1, 2002 Okay, so no one likes my idea of Techies v Non-Techies. Other people have suggested things like birthdays/phone numbers, but I think it needs to be something that's displayed in our user profiles so it's easy to keep track of which team has possession of the ball. This would be particularly important when the rules are violated, in determining which side to penalise. quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:look at the date everybody logged their first cache then find the median and put everybody who logged a cache before then in the "oldsters" team and everybody who logged their first cache after that date is a "newbie" This is more the sort of thing! But I would suggest 'Member since' date instead, since this is shown on the Profile page. quote:Originally posted by el10t:I suggest the new UK geocaching resource page to set it up, publish rules etc. Perhaps team sign-up could also be via that site? If we can agree on a means of automatically determining teams (a big *if* at this rate!) sign-up won't be necessary. But the new UK site would certainly be a good place for the rules. The bug's page should also list the rules, or a link to them, as well as information about the game, so that whoever picks it up knows what it's all about. Also the bug itself needs a message attached to it - maybe something like 'This bug is the ball in a game of Geocache Football. Read about it at . If you are not participating, please leave it where it is.' Hopefully this would reduce the chance of it going astray. It seems to me that the main things we still need to decide on are as follows: 1. Where will the goals be? London/Edinburgh? Land's End/John o'Groats? 2. What will the teams be based on? Job description? Date of birth? 'Member since' date? 3. Who wins? The first team to score? The team with the most goals after a certain time? 4. What limitations are there on what caches the bug can be placed in? Mainland? Caches created before kickoff? Traditional caches? Should we exclude ones that are part of a multi where you have to do the other parts to work out the location? 5. What other ideas should we incorporate? Allow other bugs to block? Disallow cache revisits? Cast your votes now... quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* What mushrooms? Oh, sorry. Quote Link to comment
philgn Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 My vote quote:Originally posted by SimonG:"Okay, so no one likes my idea of Techies v Non-Techies. Other people have suggested things like birthdays/phone numbers, but I think it needs to be something that's displayed in our user profiles." .............. Once the teams were selected, you could add your team to the user profile .................................................. It seems to me that the main things we still need to decide on are as follows: 1. "Where will the goals be? London/Edinburgh? Land's End/John o'Groats?" ................... Yes vote would be for as far away as possible, so Lands end/John o groats for me, otherwise Hornet would win solo .................................................. 2. "What will the teams be based on? Job description? Date of birth? 'Member since' date?" ............ No vote for member since, as more caches would have been visited on the oldies side, unfair advantage. Yes vote for birthdates or telephone numbers then add your team to your profile .................................................. 3." Who wins? The first team to score? The team with the most goals after a certain time?" .................. Yes vote for first goal scored .................................................. 4." What limitations are there on what caches the bug can be placed in? Mainland? Caches created before kickoff? Traditional caches? Should we exclude ones that are part of a multi where you have to do the other parts to work out the location?" ............. Yes vote for caches in situe on the day off kick off, traditional and multi caches .................................................. 5. "What other ideas should we incorporate? Allow other bugs to block? Disallow cache revisits?" ................ I like the idea of anything that would involve a bit of strategy, so allow blocking, I still like the idea of alternate moves, with a time limit perhaps of a week. .................................................. Cast your votes now... quote:Originally posted by dylanhayes:******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* What mushrooms? Oh, sorry. Quote Link to comment
el10t Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 1. LE/Jo'G 2. DoB 3. First goal scored 4. Caches created before kickoff. No exclusion by cache type. 5. No other restrictions yet - keep it simple for first game to see if its viable before complicating things. ----------------- el10t mobilis in mobili Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 1. LE/Jo'G 2. DoB first game 3. First goal scored - with L/JoG it could take weeks anyway 4. Caches created before kickoff. Only other requirement - the "ball" must fit in it. 5. KISS ----------------- el10t _mobilis in mobili_ ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
+Icenians Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Keep it simple, this discussion could go on forever and the game never start. Sounds like lands end/ John O'Grouts is favorite. Teams derived from numbers is random so should work out fairer. and more distributed. Sounds fun. When does it start? Quote Link to comment
philgn Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 The idea's have been put, I think it should now be up to dylanhayes to make the rules final, with no further discusion or arguements. It's his idea so asap. One final sug would be to outlaw ac's (acronyms) Le/jog for gawds sake Quote Link to comment
+dylanhayes Posted August 4, 2002 Author Share Posted August 4, 2002 I will sit down tomorrow and have a go at writing down the rules in an easily digestible form. I'm sure there will be variations as everybody will have a slightly different idea of how it works, but for a first game it is better to test what we have and then refine it where required, or we'll be at the talking stage forever... ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
+dylanhayes Posted August 6, 2002 Author Share Posted August 6, 2002 I have posted the rules here: http://81.2.66.58/thoughtbubble/threaddetails.asp?lngtextid=28 My reasons for doing so is that those of you who have IE 5.5 or IE 6.0 can edit the document to correct any mistakes I have made, or add new rules. Once it has been through this process and any potential players are happy with the rules play can start and the it can be added to or link from www.geocacheuk.com ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 Rules look good to me. One point, (there has to be one!) it is possible, though unlikely that a move that was thought to be legal turns out not to be due to a new cache appearing on the same day thus pushing the cache that the TB was placed in to be pushed off the first page. This should not incur a penalty IMHO. Also (OK two points) I'd have a rule which says you must replace the TB the same day. This will keep it in play and mean it doesn't get hoarded at somebody's house when they meant to place it the next day but some crisis came up that meant they had to leave the country for six months. Other than that, it's fine. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Quote Link to comment
+The Good Shepherds Posted August 7, 2002 Share Posted August 7, 2002 I think Jeremy's "anti-hoarding" rule is an excellent suggestion to keep the game moving. Also, in the event of a double-move, perhaps it would be a good idea to prevent the same player making both moves? Otherwise I think there would be a lot of scope for cheating (i.e. player puts bug in cache, hides the cache in a more "difficult to find" way than it's normally hidden, and then comes straight back after the time limit and moves the bug again...) Also, it would be fairest if the 6 hour/midnight limit starts from the moment that the player LOGS the movement, not from the actual time that the bug was placed. Quote Link to comment
+dylanhayes Posted August 7, 2002 Author Share Posted August 7, 2002 Latest modifications were added. I feel I need to clarify the double move. This is a big like a normal move, only the rules about how long a bug has to spend in a cache before being moved don't apply. This is a sort of 'free kick' awarded to a wronged team. Example: Cache A is in London Cache B is in Birmingham Cache C is in Manchester Cache D is in Carlise Bug is in Cache A, and team one who want to bring the bug north get a 'double move', so a player takes the bug from Cache A, visits cache Cache B, before moving it to cache C. After returning home the bug is logged at both B and C. There are weaknesses in this, ie does the player really have to visit the first move (cache , but at least this way the moves can all be proven as legal. The team still gains more ground with this. I have been thinking if the 25 nearest rule is about right. In some areas the furthest could be a long way away. Form my home coords the furthest is only 20 miles away which sounds right, and I dare say the situation is similar down south. It occurs to me a clever team may even try to channel the bug into a cache poor area in order to move it further. What does everyone else think? I'm sure some clever person can even work out the minimum number of moves required to move a bug from London to Edinburugh ;-) ******************************************************* Don't mention the mushrooms ******************************************************* Quote Link to comment
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