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Commercial Caches

 

I don’t know if this has been discussed before but anyway but as far as I am aware it is not allowed to register caches that could be deemed to have a commercial nature i.e. Cache at McDonuts etc ect.. The question I am asking now is should this rule be changed?

 

It could be good for the game if commercial caching was legalised in some way as long as the cacher knows he is doing a commercial cache. It would not be in the commercial cache placers interests to have rotten caches (contents or placement), as this would be detrimental to their business due to the comments cachers would make.

 

E.g. Joes Café places a commercial cache called “Happy Diner”, the comments could range from…

“Cache found easily, disappointed with contents… ate in café and was ill for days!!!!” to “found cache after a long search but it was well worth the look, tired and hungry went to the Happy Diner for a fabulous slap up meal”

 

As I said previously any commercial caches would need to be placed under a commercial title so the cacher is fully aware that they are going to be doing a commercial cache beforehand.

 

What do you think is this worth expanding on or not? ( icon_wink.gifKouros if you decide to respond then I would like a dissertation of no less than 5000 words titled “Commercial Caching and its impact on Society” icon_wink.gif)

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If you do a search of the UK forums under Commercial caches, you will find hundreds of posts(Which is why I didn't Markwell you icon_biggrin.gif)

 

It is a topic which has caused a great deal of angst and upset and has been discussed at great length.

 

There may be a place for caches such as you suggest on another site, but purely commercial caches for ultimate financial gain have no place on this site.

 

JMHO

 

I woke this morning and my boat was not rocking...for one horrid moment I thought I lived in a house!

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I've read some of the posts and the general gripe is that you would'nt know a cache was commercial until you did it, a seperate classification would negate this i.e. If you don't want to do commercial caches or have objections to them - easy don't search for them and don't do them. Why stop them being placed though for people who may wish to do them?

 

Also I think before being approved they should have some value for the cacher i.e. I don't think I would do a cache next to a carpet store to pick up the 25% off coupon or approve such a cache.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gunther:

I've read some of the posts and the general gripe is that you would'nt know a cache was commercial until you did it, a seperate classification would negate this i.e. If you don't want to do commercial caches or have objections to them - easy don't search for them and don't do them.


 

Personally, I go caching to get away from the commercial world, and have some peace and quiet in the countryside. When you introduce commercial caches, do they pay to get placement? Do they pay more to get higher in the placings? Do the commercial caches take over and push out the non-commercials?

 

One thing I love about the geocaching site is that it has such ignorable adverts. If I want some kit, travel bugs etc. I can find the advert at the side of the page. If I don't, I can ignore them. No popups.

 

Then again, I come from a time when the internet was not for commercial use. It was purely scientific/educational. OK, the first spam HAD been sent (that was 25 years ago), but the 'net was open, trusting and non-commercial.

 

Let's keep geocaching that way?

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Yea great commercial Caches.I have no objection..

Get commercial interest and the big company’s could put expensive goodies into them Dixons could put in digital cameras and PDAs .Comet could put in some hi fi’s. Northern Goldsmiths a diamond ring or two Poundstreacher could put in some stuff (on second thoughts we already have these) I can’t wait.

BUT NOT HERE. NOT ON GEOCACHING.COM

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On a commercial site like e.g. Mac Donalds etc, I would suggest there could be insurance type questions that need answering and I doubt many commercial companys would allow it anyway.

 

I would be against the idea as I hope geocaching is a 'sport' that aids getting away from commercialism.

 

And of course the kids would want burgers, icecream etc etc. icon_smile.gif

 

Bob....

http://www.bobh.co.uk

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From Cache Lisiting Requirements...

 

quote:
Commercial Caches / Caches that Solicit

 

What is a commercial cache? A commercial use of the web site cache reporting tool is an direct or indirect (either intentional or non-intentional) attempt to solicit customers through a geocaching.com listing. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services.

 

Solicitations are also off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, or social agendas will not be listed. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

Some exceptions can be made for certain cache types (e.g. locationless) In these situations, permission can be given by the geocaching.com web site. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first.


 

The reasoning for the above rule seems clear, at least to me: if it has an agenda, it shouldn't be allowed.

 

There are exceptions - there have been charity caches, and the Inside Out cache was placed with the help of the BBC (but not as an advertisement).

 

A purely commercial cache placed by a business to advertise their wares? Personally, I wouldn't visit it.

 

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

soapbox.gif

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So it is OK for the website to be commercial but not caches. GC.com can advertise and sell any product it wishes at its sole discression but advocates that no caches are placed that have a commercial bias. Fair enough I suppose considering that it is their site and they can make the rules but don't have a go at me for suggesting this could be changed with a bit of careful management.

 

Maybe another website is in order to cater for different ideas.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gunther:

"Calm down it's only a commercial",, GC.Com both advertises and sells - is this not a little bit of commerce? So come off the big not on your nelly high horses please ...


But it’s their site. If they want to advertise it’s up to them. It does not cost me a bean at the moment to use this site. If the owners of the site try to recover some of the costs by advertising themselves it is their prerogative.

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quote:
Originally posted by Gunther:

So it is OK for the website to be commercial but not caches.


Two wrongs don't make a right!

 

No, Grounded Inc aren't all volunteers. We could speculate that, perhaps, it would be nice if they did it all in their spare time for free... but would the site be as good if they had less time to invest in it? Or would it actually be better, if the pool of volunteer developers was much larger? Who knows?

 

The only thing we can say for sure is that they provide us all with a free website and the only overt commercialism is a little advert for a website selling travel bugs, log books, t-shirts etc. The advert doesn't even flash! icon_smile.gif Bloody good deal if you ask me!!!

 

As for commercial caches, land owned by McDonalds for retail purposes is unlikely to be an interesting location to place a cache. So they're likely to pay someone else to use their land for a cache. IMHO paying for permission to place a cache is not a good thing. It's already started in some places; let's not encourage it!

 

quote:
Maybe another website is in order to cater for different ideas.

There already is one (at least two, in fact), as well you know! icon_biggrin.gif I can't remind you of its name because even the current low degree of commercialisation of Groundspeak prevents the mention of competitors on these forums. But it's something along the lines of N*vicache icon_wink.gif

 

So your suggestion is nothing new, and not even likely to be particularly contentious (at least not on this particular forum). The fact that we are here on Groundspeak probably means that we are reasonably happy with the current state of affairs! Those who weren't probably disappeared off to the "minor league" websites some time ago...

 

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

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I don't really see that a commercial organisation needs to use this site?

 

We are now starting to see mobile phones with built in GPS - take a look at the feature list for the Motorola A830.

 

The technology is there for a company to provide the location of some 'hidden treasure' on their own website, or by SMS or MMS. The phone could then navigate to the location using the inbuilt GPS, and it even provides a camera to take a picture when you get there. How different is this from what we call Geocaching?

 

Richard

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard & Beth:

I don't really see that a commercial organisation needs to use this site?

 

We are now starting to see mobile phones with built in GPS - take a look at the feature list for the http://www.3gtoday.com/devices/devices/device1449.html.

 

The technology is there for a company to provide the location of some 'hidden treasure' on their own website, or by SMS or MMS. The phone could then navigate to the location using the inbuilt GPS, and it even provides a camera to take a picture when you get there. How different is this from what we call Geocaching?

 

Richard


 

How much did Motorola pay you for this clever product placement Richard icon_biggrin.gif

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Well what a surprize Gunther is at it again...

 

"Ok Ive edited this now I have seen Northumbrian's post, lets say TNT and Dynamite and leave it at that"

 

No seriously....Lets not delve into Commercialsed caching - nuff of that saga with the Lovelock conspiriacy and what not. Its a nitty gritty area and its something I think this hobby could do without....just like other hobbies. Its not nesscessary and certainly isn't needed.

 

Pid

 

--------------------------------------------------------

I'm Bad, I'm Bad you know it you know!mikejackson1-vi.gif

 

www.buckscaching.co.uk

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I too see no problem in testing the waters every now and again as new people join in the forums (BTW, I've decided to use "forums" on even days and "fora" on odd days. It's as good as reason as any! frog.gif). I don't think in all honesty we need to change anything this minute but there are a number of scenarios to think about which could want us to change our positions.

 

This really comes down to a choice of where we draw the line and is probably different for each cacher involved.

 

The starting point is though, that we alraedy have "advertising" within our caches and on these forums, i.e. branded items in caches and product names mentioned in threads. This is o.k. because, probably, none of us makes a profit from such things.

 

But what if we held shares in Tupperware?

 

If a cache description said to park in a hotel car park but friends owned the hotel?

 

If Richard Branson became a cacher and as his sig item always left a free return airline ticket from his company. It costs him next to nothing, he could describe it as offering a chance to his fellow cachers to go try some caches in a different country? Would it really make you fly on his airline every time in the future as a "thankyou"?

 

Is it the value that counts? If you agreed to the above, but we know I wouldn't be allowed to advertise my company (not that I want to!), does that make it greed?

 

When I started caching I'm sure there was a cache linked to the release of The Planet of the Apes film by the distributors. (No link now, so possibly deleted). It contained tickets to the premiere and some branded clothing. Would this alone have made you go see the film whether you got to the cache or not?

 

If Computeractive write an article and run a geocache with a prize to the first finder of a GPS would we allow that? icon_wink.gif And if not, there are rather a lot of us involved in geocaching who wouldn't be here now, me included. (Thankyou Moss)

 

If the above is a by-product of an article and allowable, would we allow Garmin to run a series of caches to celebrate their "whatever" anniversary?

 

I think there is definately quite a lot of grey areas that might need looking at, and possibly on a one-by-one basis. We probably can't have a blanket ruling.

 

This is not meant to be a contentious post, not meant to make us change anything at the moment, not meant to be anti the anti-advertising lobby, it's just something to ponder on those long walks across fields to find our Tupperware Boxes with the W H Smith log book in it, written with the British Airways pen, where you note that you've taken the McDonalds toy the Penguin Book and left a Radiohead CD having taken your photo with the Kodak disposable camera! icon_smile.gif

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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You have put that reply in a very sensible and understanding to the point way Kennomatic,

The thing to me is , how can this be raised on the forum , surely this sort of thing should be discussed directly with the site owners, after all, no one on this forum can change these guidlenes that have been setby Groundspeak incorporated, after all they own it and they call the tune, and thats how it should be.

Nige

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quote:
Originally posted by Gunther:

So it is OK for the website to be commercial but not caches. GC.com can advertise and sell any product it wishes at its sole discression but advocates that no caches are placed that have a commercial bias.


Yep. Do as I say Not as I do.

Course, I think all the current* advertisement is in some way actually related to caching, and probly helps fund the gc.com site. Not just bombarding you with random goods and services.

 

quote:
Fair enough I suppose considering that it is their site and they can make the rules but don't have a go at me for suggesting this could be changed with a bit of careful management.

Please don't be upset when you get a backlash after suggesting, I might like to be spamed just a little bit more. icon_biggrin.gif

 

quote:
Maybe another website is in order to cater for different ideas.

I've often wondered why no other site has tried (or at least that I know of) to host "commerial only" caches. Anyone know? No demand?? icon_confused.gif

 

waypoint_link.gif22008_1700.gif37_gp_logo88x31.jpg

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quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

...after all, no one on this forum can change these guidlenes...


Sounds like we could do with some sort of association to talk to GC.com about this sort of thing for us. icon_wink.gif

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

 

The thing to me is , how can this be raised on the forum , surely this sort of thing should be discussed directly with the site owners


 

I think intentions are worth signalling through the forum as it gives goecaching HQ an idea of how we feel about different things. Also, at the moment, any discussion that can be seen to be discussed on this sort of subject in an "adult" way will help negate our bad publicity of the last few weeks.

quote:
after all, no one on this forum can change these guidlenes that have been setby Groundspeak incorporated, after all they own it and they call the tune, and thats how it should be.

 

I agree. In the end it is a matter for geocaching.com if the cache appears on their site and they get to have the final say.

The use of their site requires the acceptance of their "rules". When a cache is proposed it can be denied, but some of my examples happen afterwards when items are swapped or left. this community have had arguments about this before and not that long ago, and often they are worse because we only think about things the moment they crop up, this usually results in fingers typing before the brain is properly engaged, to paraphrase another well known expression, and then we see the result in flaming and toys flying left, right and center. (As well as incredibly long sentences. I must learn to edit! icon_smile.gif) How much better it is to have had a civilised discussion earlier that can be referred back to at a relevant point in the future than all jumping in with both feet in the heat of the moment. (Anyone for a mixed metaphore?)

 

quote:
Sounds like we could do with some sort of association to talk to GC.com about this sort of thing for us.


 

I'm saying nothing! icon_smile.gif

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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I'd never go after a commercial cache.

 

Thing is, when you hunt a cache, what assurance do you have that it will be a pleasurable experience? Only your faith that the cache setter set the cache with a view to giving you a nice time. A commercial cache setter has an ulterior motive - for all I know, they couldn't care less whether I enjoy myself, as long as they get me into their shop.

 

To blindly do the bidding of someone who's trying to make money out of you seems daft. To blindly do the bidding of someone who's trying to make money out of you and expect it to be fun seems even dafter.

 

What's your favourite thing?

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I've hesitated to reply before but there have been some great responses (Kennamatic esp.) IMHO.

 

Everyone has different principles. I, for one, will not visit McD's due to a number of their practices, and therefore am not tempted by their HM toys for cache gifts.

 

I have also considered leaving items in caches which I have made myself with my email address attached to the packaging, but decided this was flagrant advertisement, and wisely decided against it.

 

It's a grey area, ain't it? What is acceptable to one person might well be very offensive to another.

 

Great to see a discussion on it though.

 

Sam

 

~ Love many, trust few, learn to paddle your own Canoe ~

 

~ We can't run away for ever ... but theres nothing wrong with getting a good head start ~

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quote:
To blindly do the bidding of someone who's trying to make money out of you seems daft. To blindly do the bidding of someone who's trying to make money out of you and expect it to be fun seems even dafter.

 

If a restauranteur set a cache that ended up giving you a free meal in the hope that you would dine there again but you never did, would that make you daft or him?

 

quote:
I have also considered leaving items in caches which I have made myself with my email address attached to the packaging, but decided this was flagrant advertisement, and wisely decided against it.

 

I think it depends what it is. If you make something and leave it, even with your e-mail address on it, providing it isn't anything to do with your work or used by you to make money then I don't think there would be a problem. The fabled T&J bears come with their details. (I think). It is just a signature item in effect, even if each is different. If, however, you made little pottery dachsunds and left a note saying you could buy more from your website and contact you at sales@dachsunds.R.us then you would indeed be in trouble.

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

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I want a pottery dachsund!!!! Tried the contact address but no joy icon_wink.gif

 

As far as I can see, my T&J bear did not come with any website/mail address details except for Geocaching.com on the window sticker. But I have seen various advertising things in caches from time to time. I don't find them particularly offensive, but I don't take much notice of them either. We're all free to choose what we take from our caching expeditions after all.

 

Oh, and I just feel the need to express solidarity with Rockratgirl about McD's...I avoid them too icon_smile.gif For that same reason and several others, which I'd better not go into here.

 

Although I can smell them from half a mile away icon_frown.gif so it's not too hard!

 

I'll get me coat

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