Carefull or we'll get Geocaching a bad name

1.2k · January 18, 2003

I just received an e-mail from someone who lives close by one of my caches. It was very reasonable although this person appears to have had every reason to be aggrieved.

I have replied to him and have apologised on behalf of the geocaching community for this apparent discourteous behaviour. I have also reinforced on the cache page the instructions about where to park.

As geocaching grows we run the possibility of more problems occurring and it behoves us all to stick to, and to explain to others, the etiquette involved in Geocaching.

I have edited the e-mail slightly to remove obvious references to the people and cache involved and I certainly don't want to get involved in finger pointing. My intention in making this post is to publicise the problems and perceptions we can cause, albeit unintentionally and to urge extra care while caching.

I was extremely grateful to the originator of the note by the very reasonable attitude he took when he could so easily just binned the cache.

Here's the (edited) note:

Peter,

I live in xxxxxxxx and we came across your geocach by accident. But

immediately linked it to a couple of unpleasant incidents that happened

last summer when idiots decided they could drive into our fields

trying to find your Tupperware box. - At least one of the postings

connected to the geocache confirm this- . If anyone of us had been walking

along this path when they decided to drive down at speed we

would not be here to tell the tale by the way! The so called geocacher who

called my wife rude was incapable of communicating in more than grunts

himself.

I see there is a reference to parking at the xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

which is fine but some of the Neanderthals who participate

can't walk more than 10 yards without needing to get back in their 4x4's.

By the way we have seen several others walking to the site and they have

been as pleasant as any of our walkers. So we are aware these oikes are the

minority which give this past-time a bad name.

Anyhow we presume by now the thrill of this caper has subsided but trust in

future you will be more explicit about following the 'good practice' code.

If we were as unprincipled as the above idiots we would have removed the

boxe by now but we have no intention of spoiling the cache for everyone

else. I guess you would want to know that the box was still in

place at least at Christmas but the sign has been uprooted by

a badger or muntjac and the tree blew down in the recent

storm.

I hope this indicates we are not agin this pursuit. Two of us spent a happy

couple of hours hunting it some time ago, but we must stress if we get a

problem of 4x4's in our fields again or others parking on our drive and

walking off again I guess we will have no alternative than to remove the

box. We will let you know this so you can collect the box if you want.

Hope you receive this in the spirit it is intended!

Regards

Chris

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

January 18, 2003

Please tell us the cache name peter, Im sure nobody will accuse you of advertising and i am very interested!

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

1.2k · January 18, 2003

Dan, I'm not going to publicise the cache nor the people involved as I don't think anything would be served by whoever was involved getting into a "he said this and she said that" type of discussion. That's not the point.

What I wanted to do was to alert people to the 'impression' that geocaching makes on non-geocachers.

All I am saying is 'Be careful' when both hiding and hunting caches. Especially as Geocaching is showing signs of a rapid growth phase.

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

January 18, 2003

This proves to me once again how nice the people there are. I think if that happened where I live, the people would have immediately removed the cache, and would not have been courteous enough to send an email.

Because they took the time to notice it was just a few geocachers and not all, I hope that everyone will respect their wishes.

We visited last spring, and I cannot tell you how much I loved it. The people were so incredibly nice and everyone was so helpful. My husband even received a geocaching tube map!

January 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Ma Bell:
This proves to me once again how nice the people there are. I think if that happened where I live, the people would have immediately removed the cache, and would not have been courteous enough to send an email.

Because they took the time to notice it was just a few geocachers and not all, I hope that everyone will respect their wishes.

We visited last spring, and I cannot tell you how much I loved it. The people were so incredibly nice and everyone was so helpful. My husband even received a geocaching tube map!

http://home.attbi.com/~johnnyhackney/images/ntga_button.gif

You don't intrude at all Ma Bell, we are always happy to receive posts from our American cousins as we hope that you are happy to receive them from us.

I woke this morning and my boat was not rocking...for one horrid moment I thought I lived in a house!

1k · January 18, 2003

quote:
This proves to me once again how nice the people there are.

Well from where I am standing I do not see your point because I think these people are rude! I guess Americans must have a different view on the game...

As reagrds to the location, I have my suspicions of which cache Peter talks about and I believe that the people do not know the meaning of a "PUBLIC" footpath, this is a classic example of a non-cacher believing that all the land near them is their own- it doesnt depict cachers as bad people attall it just shows how toffee nosed some people can be. No cacher is an OIKE, thats for certain these people are very small minded people and I dont believe for one second this reflects anything bad on us a community. Whoever this cacher was, they have no reason to be down hearted because they had as much right to be there as they did.

Obviously driving down the footpath in a 4x4 isnt on and neither is answering the peron back but then the cacher shouldnt have to explain himself to such an extent, what business is it of theirs anyway.

This is just my 2 pence worth of an opinion.

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

January 18, 2003

Public footpaths are rights of way, and you are allowed to walk along them. They quite often cross private land. You are allowed along the footpath, but not allowed to deviate from it.

Therefore the cache may be on private land (I hope not), and certainly if there were a public footpath across my land, I'd be upset if people drove a 4x4 across it.

Plus, there seems to have been some parking on the person's driveway, which really isn't on.

I do hope this is an isolated case of one geocacher being rude and unthoughtful.

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

January 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TreeBeard (Pid):

Well from where I am standing I do not see your point because I think these people are rude!

The message was nowhere near as rude as just throwing the box away. If they owned the land, things might have got quite nasty in a legal sense.

quote:
I believe that the people do not know the meaning of a "PUBLIC" footpath, this is a classic example of a non-cacher believing that all the land near them is their own- it doesnt depict cachers as bad people attall it just shows how toffee nosed some people can be.

Know your facts before you start a rant. If it's a public footpath you do not even have the right to ride a mountain bike along it. It has to be a bridleway before you can do that.

quote:
No cacher is an OIKE, thats for certain

Statistically, there are enough cachers that there probably are some.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

1k · January 18, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by JeremyP:
The message was nowhere near as rude as just throwing the box away. If they owned the land, things might have got quite nasty in a legal sense.

No not as rude as that I know but they didnt own the land so this isnt an issue.

quote:
Originally posted by JeremyP: Know your facts before you start a rant. If it's a public footpath you do not even have the right to ride a mountain bike along it. It has to be a bridleway before you can do that.

Either way, if it is the cache Im thinking of it was a bridleway anyway and if it was just a footpath then regardless why does anyone not have the right to walk down it? if you are referring to the 4x4 thing then of course this is extremly bad- wouldnt condone this in any way attall.

quote:
Originally posted by JeremyP:
Statistically, there are enough cachers that there probably are some.

If you go through everyone of Hornets caches and look at the logs on the pages and find anyone one cacher that is actually an Oike I will be very surprized....statistics dont come into play here because its a one off incident most probably anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

January 18, 2003

quote:
You don't intrude at all Ma Bell, we are always happy to receive posts from our American cousins as we hope that you are happy to receive them from us.

Thank you Merman And we are always happy to hear from Y'all!

My point was, (and I think I was only misunderstood by one) The emailers could have removed the box and thrown it away. Instead, they took the time to read the page and log book, went to the website, then emailed the cache owner.

By reading the email, It was my understanding that someone drove on "their" fields and parked in "their" drive. Not knowing if "their" meant personal or community, I had to assume that it meant personal. (Not sure if Y'all have the same saying that we do about the word assume and the first three letters- what you make of yourself when you do that) Maybe I did.

Michelle

January 18, 2003

From a personal point of view..

Thanks to JeremyP fer pointing out this.. I does go to prove that there aere oinks in the fraternatiy as there always are.

Also that Pid needs to brush up on his understanding of rights of way, public access and right to roam.. And not to be so Nieve as to think that any one that caches is not an oink!! or in my technical term a total prat!

And any comment from cousins across the pond is welcome as this is a world wide sport. It helps those who do not understand red dotted lines, green dotted lines etc to do so..

Moss de Boss... Sorta

PS.. PID.. can you prove they did or did not own the land????

PSS if it's a one one off. then statistically it's a statistic.

January 18, 2003

My reading of the e-mail was that they were the owners of the land, as they do specifically refer to it as our land.

The fact that there is a public footpath across the land has no bearing on ownership at all, hence the many examples of confrontations between landowners and walkers who want to walk a footpath, where for some reason the landowner has chosen to block the path.

The majority of land, especially in the area in question will be privately owned.

Moving on to methods of access I can think of a number of footpaths around here that are obviously accessible to 4x4's because the local landowners use them to access parts of their land, something that they are perfectly at liberty to do. However as it is only classified as a footpath, nobody else is allowed to drive down it. When 4x4's became more popular a number of years ago I remember a lot of discussion in the local press about 4x4 owners doing exactly what has been described in the e-mail.

There is no way that we, as a geocaching community can condone actions such as these. By the nature of our hobby we are entirely dependant on the goodwill of landowners, whether they be individuals or organisations, as ultimately if we get a bad name, our caches will not be allowed, and we don't have a hobby any more.

Richard

January 19, 2003

Well done Hornet for bringing this to everyones attention: all we need to remember is a little courtesy and I'm sure we'll get along fine with the world at large. There's certainly no need to start laying in to eachother...

Common sense ain't that common, and good manners cost nothing, yet it's surprising that some people cannot afford them.

It's a tradition, or an old charter or something...

January 19, 2003

It is the same problem within the world of 4x4s.

There are those who check out the routes, only use BOATs & RUPPs where rights exist, and those who will squeeze a vehicle anywhere it can go...

The same applies to bikes on Footpaths as Jeremy P points out.

I agree with Hornet, being aware of the image created by an unthinking act will prevent caching from becoming "bad press".

The letter writers have, IMHO, been very constructive and should be applauded.

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

January 19, 2003

I have read the posts and It reminds me of a run in we had at a cache not long ago. We parked up in a location I assumed to be out of harms way, and began the walk to the cache when we were shouted at and told we couldn't leave the car there. When I replied 'I'm sorry, would you like me to move it' the house owner shouted aggressively 'Yes, I should think so' Maybe just my paranoia running wild but that just wouldn't have happened if we were older. Certain People (not all) tend to treat the younger generation stereotypically, as certain youngsters treat their elders. We behaved with nothing but respect, spoke politely to those with the problems, but still received rudeness and aggression which was simply not necessary. If the problem mentioned above was concerning us I would like to offer an apology to the aggrieved party for whatever they thought we were doing wrong, as I did at the time. At the same time I would like to know why walking down a clearly stated footpath deserved such an outburst from not one but two people. Maybe this is a constant problem for this family but we in no way deserved the brunt of their anger. This whole story has made me really think. I always try to be as polite as possible, but time and time again people I come into contact with everyday seem to lack manners. I serve £2000 worth of drinks every night and never forget my please and thankyou's, maybe 10% of the customers remember theirs. It's really sickening. Maybe some people out there just aren't worth the hassle worrying about...

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 19, 2003

quote:
I always try to be as polite as possible, but time and time again people I come into contact with everyday seem to lack manners. I serve £2000 worth of drinks every night and never forget my please and thankyou's, maybe 10% of the customers remember theirs. It's really sickening. Maybe some people out there just aren't worth the hassle worrying about...

I know where you're coming from: rude customers made me give up my position as a bar-manager. Sad to go, but hey, I'm doing a lot better for myself now... Anyway, main thing to remember is keep it up. No-one can get to you if you maintain your no-doubt high standards. Don't let the buggers get you down, Dan, they ain't worth the worry.

Back to the plot, though: it seems that the couple who sent the email are of a rare sort indeed: genuinely nice people. I know everyone in GC is also genuinely nice (birds of a feather etc) but there are some unpleasant characters out there who might want to spoil our fun. As long as we don't give 'em any ammo, they can't shoot us...

It's a tradition, or an old charter or something...

1k · January 19, 2003

My final point would have to agree with Omally, dont give them ammo and they cant have any reason.

And my final point on footpaths.....how are you supposed to know where they are whenyou dont use maps and its pitch black outside Moss?

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

January 19, 2003

buy a better torch!

It's a tradition, or an old charter or something...

1.2k · January 19, 2003

Dan, I agree with every word. Very well put.

Unfortunately we all catch people on a bad day from time to time.

As someone (I think it was Abdul Nassir) once said 'Nil Carborundum Illegitemi'

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

January 19, 2003

Use a PDA an Memory Map PID!!

and being honest.. any one who don't use a map is a danger to themselves..

Moss de Boss... Sorta

1.2k · January 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Use a PDA an Memory Map PID!!

You've seen it in action today - ' You know it makes sense Rodney!!'

_________________________________________________________

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

January 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Wilson:

At the same time I would like to know why walking down a clearly stated footpath deserved such an outburst from not one but two people. Maybe this is a constant problem for this family but we in no way deserved the brunt of their anger.

Dan,

Obviously I can't comment on your run-in, but some people do seem to hate people infringeing on their territory, even when it is a public right of way.

Case in point... My Dad has gone dog walking down a track road for the past 20 years (before we get any "that's a hellofa long time..." jokes, lets nip *that* in the bud). Last weekend he took our current dog, Angus, for a walk down the same track.

The track is designated as a public footpath, but it is also an access road to a number of homes, and also a farm. Once the track meets the farm, the path runs to the side of a few fields, then back out to a main road. This is all signposted.

Anyway... Last weekend, during his walk, my dad was approached by a homeowner, who told him to clear off, as it was private property. Obviously, good old Pa tried to tell him that he was mistaken, and that the track made up part of a public footpath, but the occupant would have none of it.

It was only when dad actually showed him the signpost that he believed him.

Our guess is that the occupant had only recently moved in, and had been told by the Estate Agent that it was a private road.

The moral of the story? Don't always take it personally - sometimes people get the wrong end of the stick.

The flip side? Sometimes you can be the person holding the wrong end... but that's another tale for another time (and Kouros nods farewell in a "been there, done that, held *that* end" kind of way).

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

1k · January 19, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:

Use a PDA an Memory Map PID!!

Originally posted by The Hornet:

You've seen it in action today - ' You know it makes sense Rodney!!

Not a chance Im afraid mateys wouldnt do this if ya pad. me....agreed it makes it all the more easy but wheres the fun if you make it so easy?? Its all about being in the dark and following that arrow....you know that makes sense Del Boy!

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

January 19, 2003

quote:
Its all about being in the dark and following that arrow....

The more I think about it, the more I want to try Night-Caching... better stock up on batteries I guess! Hey guys, lets start our own NightCache Soc.!

(Is that getting off the thread? I guess so, but I think we need to lighten up now... geddit? Light up? Night Caching? Please yourselves then!)

It's a tradition, or an old charter or something...

1k · January 19, 2003

Off topic I know, apologies all round! Where are you from Omally, maybe you could join me and Dan for a night out one day!

January 19, 2003

quote:
Its all about being in the dark and following that arrow....

So, how can you be sure you don't end up wandering all over someone's back garden (so to speak) when it's pitch dark, you can't see to tell a public footpath from a fox's track and you don't have a map to give you a clue?

I can see that night caching is an adventure but you do risk winding up a few locals with your nocturnal rambles. I'm surprised you haven't had your collars felt before now

=====

There's no such thing as a free lunchbox!

January 19, 2003

We are carefull. Its always a laugh and a good night out but other peoples feelings always come first. The only times we have strayed onto private property was when either the cache was placed there by mistake or we have made a stupid error for example we used to wander onto golf courses all the time but would always try to keep off greens etc for obvious reasons! I think the amout of people we have upset in the last year is minimal and in such circumstances we are always first to apologise. We never mean to upset anyone & thats what counts most iI think?!?

Its just a hunt for a lunch box, why be so serious!?!

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

January 20, 2003

One of the reasons I always carry an OS map with me is so that if I get into a dispute about whether I'm allowed to walk across piece of land "X" I know that I'm on firm ground (so to speak). There are always going to be issues with people complaining even though you are in the right and there does seem to be a high proportion of land-owners who get very rude and agressive. Maybe that's because the polite thoughtful ones know that it's legal for you to walk across your land on public footpaths.

BTW Pid, when you did my cache yesterday, if you'd approached the last part from the North you could have done so by crossing a golf course. This is not something I'd recommend in daylight because the public footpath goes straight across two fairways and you stand a good chance of being hit by golf balls.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

January 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by jeremyp:

This is not something I'd recommend in daylight because the public footpath goes straight across two fairways and you stand a good chance of being hit by golf balls.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

What happens if you get hit by a ball whilst walking across these two fairways, would you have a legal claim ( Postumous of course)

January 20, 2003

It struck me as weird

That quote:-

I live in xxxxxxxx and we came across your geocach by accident. But immediately linked it to a couple of unpleasant incidents that happened

last summer when idiots decided they could drive into our fields trying to find your Tupperware box

Then later :- Two of us spent a happy couple of hours hunting it some time ago.

mmmm

The Spokes

It's only a foot.

January 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:
What happens if you get hit by a ball whilst walking across these two fairways, would you have a legal claim ( Postumous of course)

Interesting point. I suspect that golf clubs must have some sort of liability insurance against that sort of thing, but I don't know. Perhaps Dan and Pid would like to find out for us.

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

January 20, 2003

Golf clubs will be very good at covering their backs re injuries etc.

Quite a while ago I played golf on a new course on a converted piece of farm land with a friend. Not a proper golf club or anything, just a farmer using initiative to set up a pay-per-play course. Claire (my wife) wanted to come too, for the walk, so two of us were playing and one observing/keeping score. The owner caught up with us halfway round and gave us an earful for this set-up. Apparently nobody was allowed on the "course" without paying because this invalidated their insurance.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

January 20, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TreeBeard (Pid):
Off topic I know, apologies all round! Where are you from Omally, maybe you could join me and Dan for a night out one day!

I'd be honoured, but I feel I need to get a bit of practice in before I join the Masters on a night-cache... just call me Grasshopper (but I ain't shaving my head!)

You never know: we could get mistaken for poachers... better take out some life-insurance

It's a tradition, or an old charter or something...

January 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Omally:
Hey guys, lets start our own NightCache Soc.!

I'm up for that! Just did a quick count and 34 of my 81 caches so far have been done after dark, plus two of the seven I've hidden. Admittedly, not quite up to D&P standards, but...

Need to come up with ideas for caches which can only realistically be done after dark. Hmmm, tricky, any ideas? Could always put a timelock on an ammo box, I guess!

Since about 46% of UK caching happens on weekdays, I'd assumed that there were quite a few of us out there at night after work.

1k · January 21, 2003

quote:
Interesting point. I suspect that golf clubs must have some sort of liability insurance against that sort of thing, but I don't know. Perhaps Dan and Pid would like to find out for us.

With Pleasure Jeremy! Although we would need a cacher going by the name of finger tto come back on the scene in order to plant a few Golf Course caches!

As regards to Teasels post! This reminds of an Idea Dan had a while back about a Night caching webring! That would be wicked.

Omally- Would be a pleasure teaching you the ropes of Bushwhacking at night with a GPS! LoL

--------------------------------------------------------

One ring to rule them all, One ring to find them, One ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them!

www.buckscaching.co.uk

January 21, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Also that Pid needs to brush up on his understanding of rights of way, public access and right to roam..

In general I try to be polite but firm and refuse to be moved on from public land, simply because someone objects on principle to my presence there.

But Moss's comment made me realise that I don't actually know the law as well as I'd like. Who owns the strip of land between a public highway and the hedgerow / field? Is it lawful to park with two wheels up on the grass verge? What about all four? Is it lawful to park in an unmarked lay-by? Are you allowed to partially obstruct a gate?

There is so much misinformation about (eg "Trespassers will be prosecuted" signs, people coneing off bits of road outside their houses etc), does anyone know of an easily digestible summary of the relevent laws?

1.4k · January 21, 2003

Not sure about other stuff but for footpaths there is:

http://www.ramblers.org.uk/info/factsheets/footpathlaw.html

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

Carefull or we'll get Geocaching a bad name

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