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2 questions on 'hints'


Lellynelly

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Posted

1) I often get messages from people saying they can't find one of my caches, and could I please give them an extra hint.
In my mind, they have the hint, they know what difficulty rating it is, and if they can't find it then to log a DNF.
I have always considered it bad form to give an extra hint, and I would never consider asking a CO myself for more hints if I was stuck. But it seems to be happening more and more. Am I just being a knob? 
2) My other question is, what is the etiquette around hints? When I hide a cache I give a hint as to its location, a hint, a CLUE. But I seem to come across so many caches these days where I have looked for ages, can't find it, so go to the hint, and then find that it isn't a hint, it's a detailed description of exactly where the cache is and what it looks like!
That's not a hint, that's the answer!   I don't want the answer, I just want a hint! Why do people do this? It completely spoils the game for me. 

  • Upvote 1
Posted

After like 4 tries, I'm just asking for a hint. If they don't want to give any, than that's fine. I see myself as a beginner, so I don't really know yet what kind of hides exist and are possible. You can only get more experience when you are actually able to find the caches.

  • Upvote 3
Posted
20 minutes ago, Lellynelly said:

In my mind, they have the hint, they know what difficulty rating it is, and if they can't find it then to log a DNF.

 

Even though you are correct about this, it is usually suggested that the player ask the CO for a hint. If you are not willing to give any hint they will get it with other means.

Posted

A lot of people in my area just get answers and don't solve it themselves, so usually when asked for a hint they just give the answer, because they wouldn't know how to 'hint' at the answer. If you just get an answer and that's all you want, you could say there's less appreciation for the 'solve' (puzzle or hide).

 

I find that people who have actually worked towards the answer/find are more likely to give a hint when asked, and people who just give you the answer are more likely the ones who either didn't want to work for it, or were just given the answer in the same way.

 

If I ask for a hint and I think someone I ask is going to give me the answer or the hide, I usually re-emphasize not the answer plz just a hint!  Quite a few times the response to that (for puzzles mainly) is "oh I didn't solve it, I just got the answer, don't know how to solve it".

Posted

Log a DNF, and then ask for a hint I'll give another hint.

 

Worked on a multicache and ran out of time while looking...

Logged a DNF, and emailed the CO to ask if my co-ordinates were correct. CO replied yes, and gave explicit description of where and how the cache was hidden!

  • Upvote 2
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lellynelly said:

1) I often get messages from people saying they can't find one of my caches, and could I please give them an extra hint.
In my mind, they have the hint, they know what difficulty rating it is, and if they can't find it then to log a DNF.
I have always considered it bad form to give an extra hint, and I would never consider asking a CO myself for more hints if I was stuck. But it seems to be happening more and more. Am I just being a knob? 
2) My other question is, what is the etiquette around hints? When I hide a cache I give a hint as to its location, a hint, a CLUE. But I seem to come across so many caches these days where I have looked for ages, can't find it, so go to the hint, and then find that it isn't a hint, it's a detailed description of exactly where the cache is and what it looks like!
That's not a hint, that's the answer!   I don't want the answer, I just want a hint! Why do people do this? It completely spoils the game for me. 

1 - I'd say it completely up to you.  :) I log caches manually to a GPSr, and write hints and maybe any other helpful clues in a small notepad.

 - I usually forget what it is unless I have to look.  :laughing:   I have way-too many PAF numbers in contacts but have never called for a hint.    

If the hint (or no hint) matches the D/T, that's fine.

Now that many have that instant gratification thing, and entitlement abounds, I can see that bugging you.    It's just a smiley, folks...

Can't tell you how many times we've gone to GZ to find the area beat to heck, yet no find, and not one person logged a DNF.

 - But those same people rarely log maintenance or Reviewer logs as well...  

I used to ask if they'd like another hint, or just know where it is, but after a FTFer started asking where it is, everyone now just gets another hint

I refuse to give hints to caches not mine...

2 - We have COs that give no hint. Look at the hint, and it says "replace the cache as you found it".  They should just leave it blank...

Lately, new hiders in the area have no description much less a hint on their cache page.  Ignore...

We see only the low D/T hides have "here it is" hints.  Helpful for beginners, not so much for us.

 

 

Edited by cerberus1
  • Helpful 1
Posted
15 hours ago, cerberus1 said:

2 - We have COs that give no hint. Look at the hint, and it says "replace the cache as you found it".  They should just leave it blank...

 

I've found the cache... It was visible on the ground, it's NOT where it should be as it's fallen? from where it was hidden.

WHERE do I replace it, if there is no hint to help me know where it should be?

 

(Me? I replace it where I THINK it should be)

Posted

In my experience, the Hint field has always varied widely in detail and quality. Let's not forget the classic Hint "no hint needed" which in the days of manual decoding surely made some seekers scream.

 

Some COs are very DNF-averse and will go to great lengths to avoid getting a DNF. Some are paranoid about CHS, but this sort of thing predates that feature.

 

Ever since automatic Hint decoding became widespread (the website, the app, and most GPS all do it) the CO should assume many, perhaps most, seekers are looking at the Hint before even starting their search. 

Posted

I think I have had more people ask me for hints on caches I've found compared to those I've hidden. I have made some changes to caches though (mysteries/multi-stages) if I publish them and immediately multiple people message for hints, it probably means that something isn't clear enough. 

 

I think it's good form to ask a CO for a hint if you've put in a decent effort. I would rather someone find my caches then just walk away completely and give up. There's some COs who probably don't give any hints and that's fine too, but that person is probably just going to start messaging previous finders then until they do eventually get a hint anyways. 

 

I feel there are some cases where I wouldn't give much of a hint, if it's meant to be an extreme challenge and has been taking people multiple trips and hours to find. 

  • Upvote 1
Posted
1 hour ago, JL_HSTRE said:

seekers are looking at the Hint before even starting their search. 

 

The best place for hint is the description.

 

There are some mystery caches that have a rotted hint and it is required to solve the mystery. I don't like this way at all.

  • Upvote 1
Posted

I have no problem giving a hint or asking in some circumstances.  The more extreme example is that I wished someone had asked for an extra hint than assume the cache was not there and leave a “replacement’ using the wrong kind of container in the wrong location.  

 

Before I stopped doing most puzzles I had a CO tell me that a cache would be easier if I used trigonometry.  But he was happy to help to help a math challenged person understand the problem.  That kind of extra hint can be a learning experience.   
 

I have a cache that was placed to bring people to a favorite location where there are plaques with various quotes about the city.  It can be found without a hint, but to narrow down the search I provide a hint that would be hard to understand without reading the two closest plaques. The cache description recommends doing this.  It is equally divided between those who love the hint and those who consider it useless.  

 

  • Upvote 1
Posted (edited)
On 10/25/2024 at 4:29 AM, Lellynelly said:

My other question is, what is the etiquette around hints? When I hide a cache I give a hint as to its location, a hint, a CLUE. But I seem to come across so many caches these days where I have looked for ages, can't find it, so go to the hint, and then find that it isn't a hint, it's a detailed description of exactly where the cache is and what it looks like!
That's not a hint, that's the answer!   I don't want the answer, I just want a hint! Why do people do this? It completely spoils the game for me. 

 

People enjoy many different aspects of the game, that's what makes it such an enduring pastime. For me, on the caches I like the most, the challenge is getting to GZ and I then don't want to spend ages searching every nook and cranny for a micro or trying to see through whatever clever camo the CO has chosen. One that immediately comes to mind is a cache on the south coast where the hint was "rock" and the area around GZ was a whole beach covered in rocks. Another annoyance I have is, upon getting to GZ and not seeing anything obvious, opening the hint to find it's telling me where the best parking spot is. At the other extreme are those cryptic hints that only make sense after you've found the cache, at which time I no longer need a hint. For me, I like it best when there's a straightforward hint that narrows down the places I need to search at GZ, and if it's a remote cache that's taken me half a day to get to, the more explicit the hint the better as I really don't want to walk away empty-handed.

 

For my own hides, it varies according to the style of cache and its location. If there's a surprise element to the hiding place or container, I'll avoid spoiling that, but if it's just a plain old ordinary small or regular sized container I'll be more explicit, particularly if just getting to GZ takes a lot of effort and the cache is all about the location, not the container. For caches placed in national parks in particular, I make the hint as explicit as I can to minimise any damage to the area around GZ. Likewise if some of the potential hiding places around GZ would be dangerous to reach, I'll be pretty explicit as I don't want searchers putting themselves at risk when the cache is actually in a safe spot, for example GC9ZM7G.

 

But as I said, there are others for whom it's all about the search at GZ, and the more cryptic the hint the better. Ultimately it's the CO's choice of how they want to present their cache.

Edited by barefootjeff
  • Upvote 3
Posted

There are two reasons I hide caches.   

 

To give back to the geocaching community & to get people up and outside.   

 

I design my hides to be relatively easy and interesting and I always supply a generous hint.   If for some reason someone is having a hard time, I'm more than willing to provide additional help, especially if it means getting them up and outside a second time.  

 

Hint, no Hint, extra help or no extra help is perfectly acceptable.

 

The only question left is....... what would you do? 

  • Upvote 1
Posted
On 10/24/2024 at 12:29 PM, Lellynelly said:

I often get messages from people saying they can't find one of my caches, and could I please give them an extra hint.
In my mind, they have the hint, they know what difficulty rating it is, and if they can't find it then to log a DNF.
I have always considered it bad form to give an extra hint, and I would never consider asking a CO myself for more hints if I was stuck. But it seems to be happening more and more. Am I just being a knob? 

 

I hide my caches to be found. If someone can't find a cache, and they need an extra hint, I'd rather give them one than have them ransack the area looking for it, or draw attention to themselves through extensive searches - either of which could end up with the cache getting damaged or muggled.

 

If that's not how you want to do things, don't. It's your cache, you run it the way you want to run it.

 

On 10/25/2024 at 7:29 AM, JL_HSTRE said:

In my experience, the Hint field has always varied widely in detail and quality. Let's not forget the classic Hint "no hint needed" which in the days of manual decoding surely made some seekers scream.

 

I for one am glad that reviewers don't put up with this anymore. I found it insulting. Sure, guy who hid the thing, YOU don't think a hint's needed, but I'M the one out here and I can't find the dadgum thing. Well, joke's on you, my DNF may end up lowering the health score to the point where a hint really WON'T be needed, because it's going to get archived.

  • Upvote 2
Posted

I've been geocaching all over the US, Canada and Mexico. It's fascinating to me how different states/provinces differ so much. Not only with their hides, descriptions, hints, but the D/T too. 

 

There have been some COs that I figure out their style and I can (mostly) find their caches. But there have been some that totally stump me and I get frustrated. 

 

Some COs state that they aren't trying to bum people out, and that if they put in a good faith effort, to have the geocacher message them for a hint. I truly appreciate that. I think if you're willing to give out extra hints, it's genuinely appreciated, but if not, then just state that in the description. That helps.....that being said,  I have had several cachers reach out to me when they haven't been able to find one and the CO wasn't responding or willing to help. They saw that i recently found it, and messaged me. I have no problems helping a fellow cacher out. 

 

I say all this to encourage COs to help cachers who have legit tried to find a cache. It's appreciated 🥰

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  • Surprised 1
Posted

I attempted three trad caches today in Athens, Greece. All three had a spoiler photo, provided by the COs. The hint for each was "see spoiler photo". I found one and DNF'd two, one of which had a tell-tale magnet in the spot where the cache should have been.

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  • Surprised 1
Posted
On 10/30/2024 at 1:06 PM, colleda said:

I attempted three trad caches today in Athens, Greece. All three had a spoiler photo, provided by the COs. The hint for each was "see spoiler photo". I found one and DNF'd two, one of which had a tell-tale magnet in the spot where the cache should have been.

This is not unusual in Greece, especially in urban environments. During my holiday on Corfu this year, I searched a handful of caches in Corfu town (Kerkyra). I think that all except one were either missing, or a relatively recent throwdown. Earlier experiences on Crete and Kos were similar.

 

Anyway, regarding the topic of hints: For caches, which are easily muggled, an exact hint and/or spoiler photo is extremely useful, for several reasons:

- If the cache is in place,  it's much easier to grab inconspicuously

- If the cache is missing, then I can see this immediately without unnecessary searching

- If someone is into placing throwdowns (I'm definitely not), then they can at least replace it in the correct spot

Posted
On 10/29/2024 at 3:08 PM, hzoi said:

Sure, guy who hid the thing, YOU don't think a hint's needed, but I'M the one out here and I can't find the dadgum thing. Well, joke's on you, my DNF may end up lowering the health score to the point where a hint really WON'T be needed, because it's going to get archived.

 

lol, see when I read that I interpret it as "it's easy, don't overthink it!" and it helps me step back and think fresh and easy. "No hint needed" can really be a hint. But maybe it could be reworded :P

Posted
On 10/24/2024 at 1:29 PM, Lellynelly said:


2) My other question is, what is the etiquette around hints? When I hide a cache I give a hint as to its location, a hint, a CLUE. But I seem to come across so many caches these days where I have looked for ages, can't find it, so go to the hint, and then find that it isn't a hint, it's a detailed description of exactly where the cache is and what it looks like!
That's not a hint, that's the answer!   I don't want the answer, I just want a hint! Why do people do this? It completely spoils the game for me. 

The etiquette is that the CO provides as much information as he wants.  I like to make my hints somewhat detailed because I want the cache to be found.  Others prefer to be more cryptic.

Also, if you don't want to provide a hint, leave it blank.  It's frustrating to go to the hint and see something like "Easy, no hint needed".  If I'm looking up the hint, obviously I need one. 

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  • Helpful 1
Posted

     If someone dnfs my cache and requests a hint, I will generally provide one and on occasion ask if they want some help even if they do not ask for it, especially if they are a newbie, or the find is particularly difficult.    If I find a cache is particularly interesting but results in a dnf for me, I will ask for a location hint and return.  If not, I just dnf and move on.  If I'm one of a series of multiple dnfs I'm likely to request the CO check the cache by posting an NM or attention required log and explaining why I think so ("Multiple consecutive dnfs, no indication of any CO maintenance, last find two years ago...") 

    My perspective on hints varies based on the distance traveled and effort required to find the cache as well as the size and nature of the hide.  For my own caches, if I don't believe a hint is required I will post [none needed].  By posting in brackets you can seen the hint (well, the non-hint) at a glance.  Alternatively I might post [see the galley] or [review entire cache page] when that contains information relevant to the solution.  I see the sole purpose of the hint is to help you narrow the search area once you are at GZ so it should be a "location hint".  A hint such as "rock" or "tree" in a rock pile or forest is not a hint.  Hints which give general information ('classic hide" = on the ground; "eye high" , etc can be helpful).  Since I place a lot of multis which require consecutive finds to reach the final I often use stage names which describe the location (stump, hollow, fallen, evergreen for trees for instance) and the idea is to hint at the location.  For hunting caches, I expect the difficulty rating of the cache to be accurate, and the higher the d rating, the less useful the hint will be and I accept that.  On the other hand, for the typical roadside 1.5/1.5 rated nano unless there is a hint, I won't typically bother as I don't have the patience to search a 30 foot radius for a button sized object.  For a six stage multi requiring a two mile walk I make the hint fairly explicit and expect the same.  None of this applies to caches which are designed and described as "evil" however as d4 and d5 caches are not designed to be found, so...

edexter

Posted
On 10/25/2024 at 2:39 PM, geodarts said:

I have no problem giving a hint or asking in some circumstances.  The more extreme example is that I wished someone had asked for an extra hint than assume the cache was not there and leave a “replacement’ using the wrong kind of container in the wrong location.  

 

Before I stopped doing most puzzles I had a CO tell me that a cache would be easier if I used trigonometry.  But he was happy to help to help a math challenged person understand the problem.  That kind of extra hint can be a learning experience.   
 

I have a cache that was placed to bring people to a favorite location where there are plaques with various quotes about the city.  It can be found without a hint, but to narrow down the search I provide a hint that would be hard to understand without reading the two closest plaques. The cache description recommends doing this.  It is equally divided between those who love the hint and those who consider it useless.  

 

I like Everyting you wrote. 
good post 

Posted (edited)

I have some caches that I've intentionally hidden in spots where I know they'll be seeked by newbies. I don't mind giving an extra hint on those. Not to mention if I don't give them a hint then I'd accrue more DNFs and end up getting unnecessarily flagged by a reviewer. 

 

I do give legit hints and not spoilers. It's pretty rare when I've found one where the hint was an outright spoiler. One thing to consider - if you already have a few DNFs and you suspect it could be missing and you're already contemplating going there to check on it and someone asks for an extra hint.... Giving them a spoiler may save you an unnecessary visit vs if you gave them a hint and they DNF even though it's still there.

Edited by GearHeadAZ
Posted

I have a 3.5 difficulty cache that if I do say so myself is pretty clever but people almost always ask for another hint even though my hint is almost giving the cache to the point where all I do is just rephrase the original hint slightly and send it back, I am honestly considering just making the hint longer and clearer but I also don't want the difficulty rating to go down.

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