Approvers...

1.3k · September 4, 2003

On a thread here regarding the NorthWest Cache event there is/was a debate re:cache approval. I am posting this to open it up to those who wouldn't look on that thread.

Approvers have a role defined by the powers that be, but how do we see them? Should they blindly apply the rules? Should they interpret them?

I, personally, like to think of them in a similar way to football referees... sorry if any football haters here don't get this... but here is my thinking.

A football referee is appointed by the rule setters (just like an approver) to keep the rules in a game. Some things (eg two footed challenges) are banned by the rules, but if you see a game, you'll notice that they happen, and if the ball is won, no foul is given. By the letter of the law, if a player were to commit two such tackles he would be sent off. The referee, however, interprets these rules and applies that interpretation within the spirit of the game. For the purposes of the game any decisions are final. If a referee is seen to be constantly making bad calls, he's hauled up infront of the rule makers. Some referees are more harsh than others, but as long as a particular referee is consistant, you know where you stand.

I see an approvers role as exactly the same. Operating with a set of guidelines, some things are allowed that maybe are not exactly as per the guidelines. I believe that as long as they are decisions made in the interests of the game, then they are good decisions.

If an approvers role was to just apply the rules blindly, surely we'd need a robot user and not a person. There would then be absolute rules and we wouldn't now be having this debate. This is a growing and evolving game, and the approvers that we have have to keep up with not only changing guidelines, but also the will of cache setters and finders. I believe that we are lucky to have people willing to do this, using up a lot of their valuable time, for free. Their only reward is being in the position... and most have to hide that reward behind another id because some people give them a hard time... I find this very sad. I now have 3 caches placed, and approved by more than one approver, and have found them to be efficient and friendly. I think that we in the UK are particularlly fortunate to have Eckington in the role... and were also to have Moss do it for a time. I don't know why Moss felt he had to resign, but I considered it a great loss at the time.

The purpose of this thread is not so much for debate, though I hope & expect we'll get some, and I'd like to not have it degrade into arguement about particular incidents or caches that were approved or rejected. I'd like this thread to show how we see approvers, and how we feel they should perform their task. I didn't wan't to limit this to a poll, but I see the following options:

1: Approvers should uphold the rules, to the letter, with no exceptions or discussion.

2: Approvers should interpret the rules, and be flexible where they feel it will be good for the game.

3: Who needs rules? We should just have a free for all, place caches anywhere legal, and basically do what we like.

I feel that we will benefit from this thread as we will be able to see the different oppinions. I hope that we can all be grown up though and agree to differ when there's no alternative. I also don't expect any approver to change what they do based on this discussion.

September 4, 2003

Hi ,very worried about the last option-this may well have worked 2 years ago when there were very few caches and very few geocachers.This sport is growing very quickly in this country(have we got the greatest cache density of any country) and this means we have a greater public presense.Also not having rules leads to caches being placed in areas that are not legal aand having cache contents that may not be suitable.As for the other two the problem with flexibity is that it gives the people who do not want any rules a weapon to be used to hit people like Eckington over the head with.In effect these aforsaid people actually make flexibility and genuine mistakes an unforgivable sin.To do what Eckington does and other people like Moss has done takes some courage.We salute them!!!!

1.3k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Hungry Caterpillars:
Hi ,very worried about the last option-this may well have worked 2 years ago when there were very few caches and very few geocachers.This sport is growing very quickly in this country(have we got the greatest cache density of any country) and this means we have a greater public presense.Also not having rules leads to caches being placed in areas that are not legal aand having cache contents that may not be suitable.

I agree totally, this would be along the lines of letterboxing where there is no governing body. Luckily the 2 games I know of in this country are limited to an area, and letterboxing doesn't have things other than paperwork and stamps left in them (by design at least) Dartmoor is, for me, a typical bad example of no-rules box hunting. New Forest is also no-rules, but it's underground and so its growth is limited. I do feel there are some who would love to see geocaching go the same way... I also feel that it will lead to degredation of areas and thus spoil the game forever.

quote:
As for the other two the problem with flexibity is that it gives the people who do not want any rules a weapon to be used to hit people like Eckington over the head with.In effect these aforsaid people actually make flexibility and genuine mistakes an unforgivable sin.To do what Eckington does and other people like Moss has done takes some courage.We salute them!!!!

I guess you need very thick skin and or a crash helmet to be an approver! The problem is, with changing rules... they get hit over the head anyway as rules are interpreted by players regardless of whether the approver is flexible or a stickler for the rules.

September 4, 2003

Well, for what it's worth, my opinion is that "Approvers should uphold the rules, to the letter, with no exceptions or discussion".

Taking a 'flexible' approach is all good and well in theory BUT, to use the football analogy, the referee more often than not will get a 'slagging' from the many people who don't agree with his interpretation of the rules. It also leads to bickering between persons from the two opposing viewpoints.

The Northwest Cache Event thread started off as a nice simple "thankyou, what a great time we had" and appears to have rapidly sunk to petty bickering between 'cachers. Why does everyone take it so seriously? It's only a hobby for goodness sake.

September 4, 2003

Wow! I'm impressed with Eckington! Submitted my first ever cache for approval about an hour ago and it's been approved already. Nice one!

September 4, 2003

There used to be a worldwide geocaching stats page, however the owner of the site didn't have time to maintain it any more, and nobody would take it over so it was shut down.

There are stats here however there is only a total number of caches (not totally acurate as if a cache is placed on more than one geocaching site it will get counted once for each site) for the UK, with only density information for the USA.

Worth noting that whereas we used to be third in the league table for caches behind the USA and Canada, Germany has now overtaken the UK and pushed us into fourth!!!!

Richard

September 4, 2003

Just to put you fine folks right.. There are NO rules in Geocaching.. Just Guidelines... and as such open to interpretation.

Moss the Boss... Sorta

1.2k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Just to put you fine folks right.. There are NO rules in Geocaching.. Just Guidelines... and as such open to interpretation.

Moss the Boss... Sorta

Nicely put! What this sport needs is a healthy dollop of good old common sense. I would suggest that's exactly what we're getting at the moment from Eckington.

Sure, the guidelines appear to be 'stretched' a little from time to time but from what I've seen these instances are intended to improve the game rather than stifle it for the sake of adhering slavishly to something that could benefit from interpretation.

To use NattyBooshka's football analogy, I'm a very firm believer in the No.2 approach. How much better is a game as a spectacle when a sensible referee uses his experience and common sense to choose to ignore minor infringements and lets the game 'flow'?

_________________________________________________________

Enthusiastic user of GeocacheUK

It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do.

_________________________________________________________

September 4, 2003

This all depends if the ref is watching the action!

In other words, the approver only knows as much as they are told.

Case in point, whilst on holiday last month I placed 2 caches. When I got back I put the details forward for approval. The first cache was approved straight away with no questions.

Because I mentioned in the description of the 2nd cache to it was placed on holiday, I then had to guarantee that I could maintain this cache( I could, it is in this country). Yet the 2 were less than 15 miles apart!

3.8k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Moss Trooper:
Just to put you fine folks right.. There are NO rules in Geocaching.. Just Guidelines... and as such open to interpretation.

Moss the Boss... Sorta

Thank you, Moss. That's just what I've been waiting to hear

As Hornet says, we need no more than a bit of common sense to 'interpret' the 'guidelines' for the good of the game.

John

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability

[This message was edited by Pharisee on September 04, 2003 at 07:30 AM.]

September 4, 2003

Sorry Moss ,should have used the word "guidelines"rather than "rules".Glad of the correction and good to see you back in action .Agree very much with Hornet about the common sense and we would like to see some flexibility.Unfortunately,as can be seen on many other threads this is used as a means for points scoring.We cannot carry on loosing approvers such as Moss as happened in the past.The job they do is voluntary and the problems they have to deal with seem to go way over the top.We do not have an infinite supply of these people and to loose another one such as Eckington appears to be would be very bad for our sport as a whole.They are only human and will probably make mistakes or misunderstandings with people.This is exarcebated by the way we communicate using this medium.Who would be an approver-they must be mad!!!

September 4, 2003

Did you suggest 'flowing game of football' with the thoughts of Watford in mind ???

Jokes aside, I agree with a corrective cattle-prod rather than an electric fence as per #2 above.

Andy

September 4, 2003

Guidlines & common sense are needed. I would say that the majority of people have common sense (especially the ladies ) so wouldn't put themselves or others in danger or awkward situations (beware the landowner with the above cattle-prod ).

You could try to place a cache anywhere, but would anyone bother finding it? I always thought that the whole idea of Geocaching was to enable people to visit interesting & different places, but thought must go into the placing of the cache to make the whole thing worthwhile, fun & a bit of a challenge(apart from the odd cliff face!)

Sarah x

Team Tate

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

3.8k · September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Tate:
I always thought that the whole idea of Geocaching was to enable people to visit interesting & different places...

Sorry, but I don't think it's the 'whole' idea. There are some of us that just enjoy the challenge of a cache. It doesn't matter too much whether it has a pleasant view or nice scenery, though it's nice if it has. It's the setter saying... 'Bet you can't find this one' and me replying... 'Bet I can'.

John

Age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability

September 4, 2003

I have to agree with this, although I usually try and set caches with an interesting or nice setting, I have put 1 or 2 caches down that throw down the gauntlet....

www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=14820

Not up to the standard of some volcano based caches obviously...

September 4, 2003

Sorry, don't know how to copy!

I did say towards the end of the message that 'thought should go into the placing of the cache etc...... & a bit of a challenge!! So I hadn't forgotten about those of you who don't just go for a bit of a stroll .

We all have our own reasons for doing caches - challenges or not and that's what I think Geocaching is all about - a bit of something for everyone.

Team Tate

Remember - if it's moving, it's not dead...

24.7k · September 4, 2003

The intent of this site is pretty clear. There are no rules. Only guidlines. Strong guidlines perhaps but guidelines none the less. I see it as a mandate for an approver to understand why the rules is there so they can work with cache placers in the real world and have the flexability to do it.

September 4, 2003

The following appears in the GUIDELINES but

to me these are most definatly rules.

I can live with that.

Off-limit (Physical) Caches

We're assuming that you asked permission to hide your cache. However, if we see any listing description mentioning ignoring "No Trespassing" signs (or any other obvious issues), your listing will be automatically archived.

Caches will be quickly archived if we see the following (which is not inclusive):

* Caches on National Park Service maintained lands

* Caches that are buried - If a shovel/trowel/pointy object is used to dig - in order to hide or find a cache - it's not appropriate.

* Caches hidden by active railroad tracks

* Caches near or in military installations

* Caches under public structures deemed targets for terrorist attacks

* Caches placed on vacation.

September 4, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Spokes:
The following appears in the GUIDELINES but

to me these are most definatly rules.

I can live with that.

It is worth saying that ultimately the site has no control over where a cache is placed, what goes in it, and so on. As has been said, if you bury a cache in the middle of an army base, until it gets reported, the cache will stay listed on the site.

The GC.com rules basically define a framework for the game under which caches will be listed here. Other sites have different guidelines, and may list caches on their sites that don't get listed here. Equally caches that GC.com list may not be acceptable elsewhere.

Certainly when I was approving caches I would use the guidelines as a base, but there were always variations, caches that may or may not fall within the guidelines. Ultimately common sense and experience were the main skills used, rather than rigidly applying a set of rules. To be blunt there are so many caches that could break the guidelines but probably weren't that if all the guidelines were rigidly applied it would get incredibly frustrating for all involved.

In an ideal world every cache should be approved after physically checking it, but that is practically impossible with the number of caches being hidden, and the limited time available to approvers, all of whom have 'real' jobs to do as well.

As I see it, the guidelines provide a common starting point so cachers can be fairly certain that a cache they go to find will not be dangerous when they find it, that they won't get arrested or hurt trying to find it, and also that the cache and the cachers will not damage the environment playing the game.

Ultimately, by maintaining guidelines based around those ideals, and allowing those guidelines to evolve according to circumstance the game can grow, and the landowners, who ultimately 'control' the game by allowing us to play on their land, can be happy to let the game can continue to be played.

Richard

1.8k · September 5, 2003

quote:
The Hungry Caterpillars asked:
have we got the greatest cache density of any country?

This page has density information, but it's only updated to June.

The UK has the second highest density, after the Netherlands, if you disregard countries with less than 100 caches placed. (Some very small countries have only a dozen or two caches placed, but the density comes out really high because their area is so small.)

The top five (with at least 100 placed) are:

Netherlands 1647 per 100,000 sq kilometers

UK 909

Belgium 717

USA 562

Denmark 536

Bill

-------------------------------

"Ah, take the Cache and let the Credit go..."

The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, trans. Edward Fitzgerald

September 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by 5 Balls & Tammy:
Wow! I'm impressed with Eckington! Submitted my first ever cache for approval about an hour ago and it's been approved already. Nice one!

It took THAT LONG?

I guess I must hold the record, when he approved my cache within a couple of minutes of me creating the page (ok, so he was almost looking over my shoulder as I typed it in, so only had to login and tick an "ok" box)

Another proud member of the GAGB!

[This message was edited by Team Blitz on September 05, 2003 at 01:53 PM.]

September 5, 2003

quote:
Worth noting that whereas we used to be third in the league table for caches behind the USA and Canada, Germany has now overtaken the UK and pushed us into fourth!!!!

Well, if the quality of the caches is generally like the (small number) I found in northern Germany, they need to improve things. 6 of 7 were wrapped in plastic bags, one contained alcohol & a knife, and the quality of the contents in all cases was sadly very poor.... "took nowt, left a signature keyring".

Another proud member of the GAGB!

September 5, 2003

<bugger, wrong button!>

September 5, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:

Well, if the quality of the caches is generally like the (small number) I found in northern Germany, they need to improve things. 6 of 7 were wrapped in plastic bags, one contained alcohol & a knife, and the quality of the contents in all cases was sadly very poor.... "took nowt, left a signature keyring".

Another proud member of the GAGB!

I have been to several caches a couple of days after a german group had visited caches and found an odd array of items including cigarettes and a VERY sharp knife.

I used to live in Germany so all germans please note. I'm not saying you're all doing this However, there does seem to be a trend emerging!

Onwards and upwards. Never retreat, never surrender.

Approvers...

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