Is this fair?

[+Cjbear087]

So for my 100th cache I did a big multi cache I’ve wanted to do for a while now. On the 2nd stage there was a tree climb which was very tall and I didn’t feel comfortable doing it so I messaged the owner and he said don’t worry about it and sent me the coordinates to the next stage. I still wanted to see the stage for myself however so I got a friend along who is more comfortable climbing trees and he managed to bring it down for me to see (the coordinates on it were very faint so we ended up using the ones he sent us anyway but we still got the stage). I did the entire cache by myself except from this stage of it. Do you guys think this is cheating? As I’ve said - the owner didn’t see a problem with it but I’m not sure.

[+Max and 99]

2 minutes ago, Cjbear087 said:

Do you guys think this is cheating?

No. And my answer would be the same regardless if the CO helped you. 

[+KYcachingguy]

Nothing wrong with teamwork. 

 

Did you let the CO know the coords are faded so they can do maintenance on it?

Edited August 11, 2024 by KYcachingguy

[+JL_HSTRE]

If a cache required climbing a tree and I couldn't climb the tree then I would skip the cache if I was solo. I wouldn't ask the CO for a way to skip the stage unless the problem with the stage was a maintenance or similar issue (ex: I'm doing a multi and find Stage 2 has been bulldozed).

 

However, if the cache requires climbing the tree I think it's perfectly acceptable find it with teamwork, as you ended up doing. 

[+Smitherington]

I was invited to go with some other cachers recently where tree climbing was required.  I don't climb anymore.  I had no problem accepting the help and claiming the smiley.  Others may feel different.  Another cacher was along and said he would return and climb himself when things were not so wet.  

 

In your case I would claim the find.

[+niraD]

Welcome to geocaching! And welcome to geocaching with other geocachers. It doesn't have to be a solo activity.

 

1 hour ago, Cjbear087 said:

So for my 100th cache I did a big multi cache I’ve wanted to do for a while now. On the 2nd stage there was a tree climb which was very tall and I didn’t feel comfortable doing it so I messaged the owner and he said don’t worry about it and sent me the coordinates to the next stage. I still wanted to see the stage for myself however so I got a friend along who is more comfortable climbing trees and he managed to bring it down for me to see (the coordinates on it were very faint so we ended up using the ones he sent us anyway but we still got the stage). I did the entire cache by myself except from this stage of it. Do you guys think this is cheating? As I’ve said - the owner didn’t see a problem with it but I’m not sure.

I've gone geocaching in groups, and some of those groups have included the CO. And sometimes we've come to a stage that needs to be repaired, and the CO has described what we should have found and/or given us the coordinates for the next stage.

 

And usually, different people have contributed in different ways, like a multi-stage puzzle night cache that I found with a group. One person climbed a tree to retrieve an elevated stage, another found the mechanism to lower another elevated stage, another solved a puzzle, another had a UV flashlight to read a clue that used fluorescent ink/paint, and so on.

 

Also, there are two main method for groups to operate when it comes to the final container location. I've heard the most common method called the Three Musketeers method ("One for all, and all for one!"). As soon as anyone spots the cache, they declare victory and everyone logs a find.

 

I've heard the method I prefer called the Huckle Buckle Beanstalk (named after an old children's game). When you spot the cache, you walk a few steps away and declare that you've found it. When the last person spots the cache, everyone logs a find. That way everyone gets the experience of figuring out the hide. And yes, people usually start giving hints ("warmer", "colder", etc.) if the last person is really not finding the cache.

[+thebruce0]

9 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If a cache required climbing a tree and I couldn't climb the tree then I would skip the cache if I was solo. I wouldn't ask the CO for a way to skip the stage unless the problem with the stage was a maintenance or similar issue (ex: I'm doing a multi and find Stage 2 has been bulldozed).

 

If I were alone and if I couldn't climb trees (if, or replace the stage with something else I can't/won't do :)) but the CO felt it was okay to give me a way to skip it, either by asking him directly or perhaps there was an alternate solution method to the stage) then I may log it found assuming I find the final cache, but I'd also qualify how by explaining either clearly or vaguely (to avoid spoilers) that stage 2 posed a problem for me but I 'found a way around' or something like that.

 

Ultimately, having your name in the log book is the primary goal, and how you accomplish that goal is irrelevant.  However, I would say it's really your conscience that should decide for you what is a "valid" qualification to log it found online. I absolutely condone doing all that is intended by the cache owner to attain the experience from beginning to end that they want you to have. But secondarily, if the CO has no issue with the 'cut corner', then you shouldn't feel like it's "cheating" if they permit it.  But it's still okay to not log a cache found that a CO permits you to log found, I've done that plenty of times too, because I didn't feel the log online would be legitimate and/or accurate (like a container is missing and I'd have absolutely found it but the CO says I can log it found anyway).

 

Claiming finds can be nuanced. I simply like to encourage a simple goal: Find the cache, sign the log, enjoy the experience the CO crafted and intended you to have. Geocaching is indeed a community experience, and while everyone "enjoys" it their own way, "playing it your own way" can step on other people's toes, and it can bring everyone down. You don't have to find every cache.  A "Found it" has a definition and meaning and implication for everyone who sees it.  Treat others the way you'd like to be treated.  All of that will help the community to thrive if everyone's on the same page  

[+cerberus1]

I like to take some people with me for company n safety when using rope to access trees or drop off cliffs.

One may be maintaining my equipment, or a photographer.  We're a team, and I bring the log down for them to sign. 

A smart guy I know in a wheelchair got a tough mystery that had some borderline seizures watching the cache page.

He solved it, and I (not so smart...) accessed the rope-in-a-tree cache with him present (a feat in itself...). 

 - We were a team, and both claimed the find.  

[+niraD]

3 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

enjoy the experience the CO crafted and intended you to have

I once found a trailhead cache, but I didn't experience it as a trailhead cache. I rented a pedal boat from the marina across the lake and experienced the cache as a D5 boating cache.

 

And then there's the D5 puzzle cache that I know was solved in a few different ways by the first dozen or so finders.

 

I guess I don't worry much about whether my experience finding a cache matches what the CO "intended"...

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, niraD said:

6 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

enjoy the experience the CO crafted and intended you to have

I once found a trailhead cache, but I didn't experience it as a trailhead cache. I rented a pedal boat from the marina across the lake and experienced the cache as a D5 boating cache.

 

I've done something similar on a couple of caches in the Watagan Mountains. The CO's intended approach was to drive in along the ridge-top road with a short walk to the cache, but I opted to convert them into T4s by walking up the trail from the valley 370 metres below (and gave them both FPs for the fun hikes).

 

As a CO, what I present on the cache page (be it a puzzle to solve, waypoints to visit or access route) is only a suggestion and I'm happy for players to use whatever creative method they devise for determining GZ, getting there and writing their name in the logbook. Some of the most amusing logs I've read were from those taking such shortcuts, which often turned out to be longcuts. One (now archived) field-puzzle multi had 64 possible solutions for GZ, but rather than visit the waypoints, someone plotted them out, eliminated the ones that were on water, roads, private property or inside the national park, leaving about a dozen, then visited each one, most of which were much harder and scratchier to reach than the real GZ. She eventually found it.

[+Mausebiber]

Of course, you can go caching in a group, and of course someone in the group can help solve a stage. That's no different from someone having the solution to a puzzle.

But if it's an important cache for me, a round 100th, then I want to do all the stages myself. If I can't do that, then I'll look for another cache.

 

[+Cjbear087]

1 minute ago, Mausebiber said:

But if it's an important cache for me, a round 100th, then I want to do all the stages myself. If I can't do that, then I'll look for another cache.

 

Yeah that was the issue I had with it, oh well. I guess 100 isn’t a MASSIVE goal but maybe if it was something like 1000 it would be a different story. Also it’s not like it was only a 2 stage cache I believe this one was a big 5 stage so yeah 

[+JL_HSTRE]

3 hours ago, Cjbear087 said:

I guess 100 isn’t a MASSIVE goal but maybe if it was something like 1000 it would be a different story.

 

Statistically speaking, 100 Finds actually is a big milestone, in terms of what percentage of people who log a Find on 1 cache ever make it to 100.Finds.

[+Mudfrog]

I've watched quite a few times where one guy made the climb and signed for everyone standing below. There have also been times when I climbed and signed for everyone below. I don't see any issues with anyone doing this but it doesn't feel right for me in particular. Kinda silly I guess but I'll log the DNF if I'm personally not able to complete a cache for some reason.

[+Mausebiber]

3 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

I've watched quite a few times where one guy made the climb and signed for everyone standing below.

 

Yes, you shouldn't do this, and I did something like this also.  There was a series of ten trees to climb and my partner and I always did five.

 

The big difference is, I'm able to do all ten trees, even when it takes me a couple of hrs more.

But when I know, there is a cache, and I'm not able to complete one of the stages, I don't even start it. 

[+GeoElmo6000]

I once found the final of a particularly difficult puzzle by looking at the map of where the others in his series were hidden (all along a particular waterway) and searching where the one hole was.  I found the cache and signed the log and it counted as a find.  +1

 

I also once signed the log of a Wherigo final where I refused to go into the dense tall grass in the summer (for fear of ticks) but another cacher was willing to wade through and bring the cache out for me to sign and then wade back in and replace it.  +1

 

I once found a cache put in a spot where the CO had recently archived another.  I wondered if he'd put a new cache in the spot so I drove over and lo and behold there was a fresh logsheet.  A few days later when the cache published I signed as FTF and marked it on the day I found it.  +1

 

I once wanted to find a chirp cache but didn't have a chirp capable GPS so I asked the CO for another way to find it.  He sent me an alternative puzzle and I solved it and found the cache.  +1

 

I think you're good on getting help on a tree climb cache.

[+Mausebiber]

1 hour ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I think you're good on getting help on a tree climb cache.

 

I don't question this, sure, getting help is fine. 

But he will always remember, for the rest of his cacher live, that he logged a found of a for him imported cache without having it done himself.

 

It is not just any cache, it is the one where he puts a "100 Found" medal around his neck.

If he wouldn't care, he wouldn't have started this discussion.

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2024 by Mausebiber

[+barefootjeff]

31 minutes ago, Mausebiber said:

 

I don't question this, sure, getting help is fine. 

But he will always remember, for the rest of his cacher live, that he logged a found of a for him imported cache without having it done himself.

 

It is not just any cache, it is the one where he puts a "100 Found" medal around his neck.

If he wouldn't care, he wouldn't have started this discussion.

 

The cache I did for my 1000th find was a full day terrain-4.5 hike which I did with a group of friends. At GZ, one of the friends, who's a lot more sure-footed than me, volunteered to retrieve the cache from it's rather precarious hiding place on the edge of the cliff and I was happy for him to do that. For me, it was all about the journey with the fantastic group hike to celebrate the milestone, with everyone contributing along the way, and it made no difference who actually retrieved the cache.

[+niraD]

2 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I once found the final of a particularly difficult puzzle by looking at the map of where the others in his series were hidden (all along a particular waterway) and searching where the one hole was.  I found the cache and signed the log and it counted as a find.  +1

Back in California, I knew someone who routinely brute-forced puzzle finals. If the puzzle looked interesting, then he'd solve it and find the cache using the solved coordinates. But if the puzzle looked tedious, then he'd brute-force the final. To him, brute-forcing was more fun than solving a tedious puzzle.

[+Goldenwattle]

8 hours ago, niraD said:

But if the puzzle looked tedious, then he'd brute-force the final.

What does that mean. Search a large area for any likely hides?

[+niraD]

3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

12 hours ago, niraD said:

But if the puzzle looked tedious, then he'd brute-force the final.

What does that mean. Search a large area for any likely hides?

He was generally much more focused than that on his searches. He would use information in the cache description (including the theme of the puzzle, if any), information in the logs, and knowledge of where other caches were (and thus, where there might be openings for the puzzle cache). Then he would search specific locations that matched the information he had.

[fendmar]

Mostly what I've heard is "If you have to ask..."

[+fuzziebear3]

You need to be there, and you need to contribute to the search.   If that means you are the ground person while someone else actually does  the climb, then go with your heart as to whether you sufficiently contributed.   In many cases the support team is just as important as the climber, and I would have no problem with that.

 

 

[+Harry Dolphin]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:54 PM, GeoElmo6000 said:

I once found the final of a particularly difficult puzzle by looking at the map of where the others in his series were hidden (all along a particular waterway) and searching where the one hole was.  I found the cache and signed the log and it counted as a find.  +1

 

15 Dolphins in the River?

[+GeoElmo6000]

40 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

 

15 Dolphins in the River?

 

Umm... maybe... ;-)

 

That was an excellent series and I commend you on so many fun puzzles.  I enjoyed riding my bike up and down the Hudson River finding those caches as well.

[+geodarts]

At this point tree climbing caches are out for me.  I am not even sure could take a long telescoping pole and use that to reach the container, although I have done that before regardless of whether that was the intended way.  The last time I came across a tree climb cache my noncacher wife did the short climb.  Several years ago a CO took a group of us and demonstrated his amazing climbing abilities.  
 

I had no problem claiming a find in all these situations, but if you do, don’t claim it.  

[+Mudfrog]

On 8/12/2024 at 2:50 PM, Mausebiber said:

 

Yes, you shouldn't do this, and I did something like this also.  There was a series of ten trees to climb and my partner and I always did five.

 

The big difference is, I'm able to do all ten trees, even when it takes me a couple of hrs more.

But when I know, there is a cache, and I'm not able to complete one of the stages, I don't even start it. 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying not to do. 

 

Myself, I won't claim a find if I don't personally climb, swim, dive, hike, spelunk, etc,, to get to a cache. It's a DNF if I start for a cache and can't complete it for any reason. My DNF will include details of why I didn't complete my search.

 

But as I stated above, it does not bother me a bit to help someone else out. I've done it many times over my 22 years of caching. A cacher can make up his or her own mind of what type of log they feel is right for them. Of course it's then up to the cache owner if he's ok with those kinds of found logs. Honestly though, I don't think I've ever come across an owner being that strict in my 22+ years of caching. 

[+Mausebiber]

I don't think my point is understood.

If this was just any cache, it wouldn't matter at all whether someone helped me out or not. But if I see this as something very special, a cache that I will probably remember for the rest of my caching life, then I want to do it completely myself. Again, this is not just a simple cache that I find today.

If I were in his position, I would log the cache now as the 100th, get an experienced climbing cacher, learn to climb and climb the tree at some point. Can you imagine what great feeling this would be, up there.

But that's just my opinion, everyone does it in their own way.

[+Mausebiber]

3 hours ago, Mudfrog said:

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying not to do. 

Very easy:  If you can't do it, don't do it

[+CAVinoGal]

On 8/11/2024 at 3:05 AM, Cjbear087 said:

So for my 100th cache I did a big multi cache I’ve wanted to do for a while now. On the 2nd stage there was a tree climb which was very tall and I didn’t feel comfortable doing it so I messaged the owner and he said don’t worry about it and sent me the coordinates to the next stage. I still wanted to see the stage for myself however so I got a friend along who is more comfortable climbing trees and he managed to bring it down for me to see (the coordinates on it were very faint so we ended up using the ones he sent us anyway but we still got the stage). I did the entire cache by myself except from this stage of it. Do you guys think this is cheating? As I’ve said - the owner didn’t see a problem with it but I’m not sure.

 

I've been watching this thread with interest.  No, I don't consider this "cheating", and it's one reason I enjoy caching with others along.  They may be able to get into places I can't or won't (high up in a tree, or deep into a culvert under the street) and I may be able to do the same for them (I'm "verctially challenged" and small enough to fit into places a full sized adult can't!).  With 2 or 3 sets of eyes looking, we are more likely to spot the cache, and I have no issues signing a logsheet where someone else has been the one to retrieve the container, or allowing all the group to sign if I have been the one to make the grab.

 

We each have our own caching "ethics" if you will - if you are uncomfortable with it, then don't claim the smilie 'til you do it yourself!  But I doubt anyone will begrudge you the find if you were there, signed the log that someone brought to you after they did the tree climb and got the container!

[+Mausebiber]

10 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

But I doubt anyone will begrudge you the find if you were there, signed the log that someone brought to you after they did the tree climb and got the container!

 

Sure, I fully agree with this, but again, quite obviously, you didn't understand my point.

I try to make a sample:

 

You get up in the morning to do a 10-Mile run, and after 8 Miles you realize, it's too much, and you take the bus for the last 2 Miles.  Not a problem at all, this was your goal, not someone else, it doesn't matter to anyone.

 

But, if your goal is to do a 10-Mile run to get a medal at the end, my feeling is, you have to run the 10 miles.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2024 by Mausebiber

[+Mudfrog]

3 hours ago, Mausebiber said:

 

Sure, I fully agree with this, but again, quite obviously, you didn't understand my point.

I try to make a sample:

 

You get up in the morning to do a 10-Mile run, and after 8 Miles you realize, it's too much, and you take the bus for the last 2 Miles.  Not a problem at all, this was your goal, not someone else, it doesn't matter to anyone.

 

But, if your goal is to do a 10-Mile run to get a medal at the end, my feeling is, you have to run the 10 miles.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying. A milestone cache is sometimes a special cache, that for many of us, needs to be found "properly" for us to get that gratifying and proud feeling of accomplishment. I 100% feel this way, it just wouldn't be the same claiming a find on a cache, especially a milestone cache, that I didn't actually find myself. But at the same time, I do realize and understand that there are plenty of people that feel differently about this. They have to decide themselves how they feel about this and how they want to handle it.

 

[+Mausebiber]

Thank you Mudfrog, this is exactly what I feel and think and yes, plenty of people feel different about this.

 

[+paleolith]

Back to basics. Sign log, get smilie.

[+Rustynails]

We have many lakes with islands making them high terrain hides. Those without boats can swim or have a friend with a boat take them. However, most people here simply walk on water to get these caches.

[+Goldenwattle]

19 hours ago, Rustynails said:

However, most people here simply walk on water to get these caches.

 A group of us did almost that once. I visited a local dam and stood staring in amazement. Where normally there would be an expanse of water, there were dry walks to the islands, which had caches and normally needed a boat. I let others know and we walked out to the islands and made the finds. We didn't delay, as water was being pumped into the lake from another dam. This is one of the local water supplies and because of fires in the area of other dammed lakes, the water in the other dams became polluted by ash, while this one remained okay. This lake had been supplying all the water, and so was almost drained. The other lakes had cleared up and now this one was being filled again from other dammed lakes; hence we didn't delay our walk.

This is how the dam looks normally. On the day we visited, there was almost no water and we took a walk, out there to the islands. Walked on a lake .

Edited August 31, 2024 by Goldenwattle

[+bflentje]

On 8/12/2024 at 4:47 PM, Mausebiber said:

 

I don't question this, sure, getting help is fine. 

But he will always remember, for the rest of his cacher live, that he logged a found of a for him imported cache without having it done himself.

 

It is not just any cache, it is the one where he puts a "100 Found" medal around his neck.

If he wouldn't care, he wouldn't have started this discussion.

 

 

 

 

good grief. Maybe you need to climb more trees.