GAGB Again.....

May 12, 2003

Those Opposed

The GAGB (or whatever it will eventually be called) has to happen. It is unreasonable to assume that Landowners will want to deal with numerous individuals on the subject of placing caches.

Like it or not these bodies are happier dealing with one designated local person who abides by formal transparent guidelines of a National Committee.

Tim & June

Your decision to resign is regrettable and in my opinion it is sad that none of the other initial members have come forward to take the weight off your shoulders with regards to responding to the posts.

There is a middle ground here if people look for it and stop being so intransigent in their viewpoints.

I still think the GAGB is a good thing ( flame me if you like )

But the question remains -

Who is going to be on this committee ?

Suggestion

Lets get some names in from the regions to see if anyone wants the job. Spread the word to ALL of the uk geocaching sites to invite people to put themselves forward.

Using the email address at the bottom of the GAGB site as a mailbox for those interested.

But if no-one wants to do it, What then ?

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mudplugger:
But if no-one wants to do it, What then ?

If Icenians was willing to stand, I would support them. They have a very strong opinion, and I think that is needed.

GAGB needs the naysayers involved, working alongside the yessirs, in order to help shape it.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

I agree and would also support him although I might not agree with all of his concerns.

But will he stand ???

(edited for spelling)

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mudplugger:
Those Opposed

The GAGB (or whatever it will eventually be called) has to happen. It is unreasonable to assume that Landowners will want to deal with numerous individuals on the subject of placing caches.

Like it or not these bodies are happier dealing with one designated local person who abides by formal transparent guidelines of a National Committee.

<snip>

How can you explain that many people have already or are currently in negotiations with local landowners/Councils? Why can those of us happy to do this not continue? This is how Geocaching was intended. Not subsidiary groups for this, that and the other.

I really need to step away though as it has been commented that I know not what I speak of.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mudplugger:
I agree and would also support him although I might not agree with all of his concerns.

But will he stand ???

(edited for spelling)

Don't you guys think that would be a bit hypocritical of me?

I don't think that my outright opposition to a national organisation would be healthy for it from the inside.

However, if there are people out there that are general agreement with an association and agree with some of my points. I suspect they would fit somewhat better.

On the point of middle ground .... No enough from me now I've done that to death.

Statistics show that those with the most birthdays live longest.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
How can you explain that many people have already or are currently in negotiations with local landowners/Councils? Why can those of us happy to do this not continue? This is how Geocaching was intended. Not subsidiary groups for this, that and the other.

No reason why they shouldn't carry on, as far as I can see.

But for those land owners who would prefer to speak to a central body, who do they turn to?

US based GC.com?

Semi-Commercial GC:UK?

Or an independent volunteer group, which promotes the sport because they are a part of it, and has local representatives that can talk to them personally, on a one to one basis?

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

Before this goes any further. GeocacheUK.com was not set up to hold talks with land owners etc as we dont see it in our remit to obtain permission for the placement of caches. We are here to provide services to geocachers in the UK end of story. I have for a few of my caches talked to council reps regarding placement but that is all. I was speaking for myself and no others.

Mark (TheCat)

www.geocacheuk.com

Officially recognized by Groundspeak and Geocaching.com

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by TheCat:
Before this goes any further. GeocacheUK.com was not set up to hold talks with land owners etc as we dont see it in our remit to obtain permission for the placement of caches.

Sorry Mark, I was just using it as an example, I know that's not what GC:UK is all about.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
How can you explain that many people have already or are currently in negotiations with local landowners/Councils? Why can those of us happy to do this not continue? This is how Geocaching was intended. Not subsidiary groups for this, that and the other.

Because when one person takes it upon themselves to approach a big landowner organisation, and their negotions fails for one reason or another, they have (effectively) blown it for all of us... and whingers like me start asking why the negotiations were conducted behind closed doors without the geocaching community at large being involved... What gives one individual the right to nominate themselves spokesperson of all UK geocachers, and approach big-league landowners on "our" behalf?

Of course, when folks try putting together a framework by which such "community" negotiations *could* be run, whingers from another camp start quibbling over trifling details like the use of the word "The" instead of "A".

I can't believe the amount of damage this level of bickering has done to the group over the last 3 days.

"You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't."

John TGS.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Rockratgirl:
How can you explain that many people have already or are currently in negotiations with local landowners/Councils? Why can those of us happy to do this not continue?

I think a lot of the opposition is down to this assumption that the GAGB will become a conduit you HAVE to go through when placing a cache. This certainly isn't the case - if you ask a landowner if you can place a cache on their land, and they say yes, how could the GAGB prevent you?

Chill, people! No one's trying to take anything away from us.

What's your favourite thing?

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:
....... This certainly isn't the case - if you ask a landowner if you can place a cache on their land, and they say yes, how could the GAGB prevent you?

Besides, there is always that ultimate choice: publicise the cache on *another* web site that *will* permit you to put food into caches, place them 'bad' places etc

Paul

May 12, 2003

quote:
Besides, there is always that ultimate choice: publicise the cache on *another* web site that *will* permit you to put food into caches, place them 'bad' places etc

In order for the association to gain universal acceptance it will have to encompass these *other* websites of which you speak and actively attract on to the committee people from them in order for it to be able to represent caching in the UK.

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

May 12, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Good Shepherds:

Because when one person takes it upon themselves to approach a big landowner organisation, and their negotions fails for one reason or another, they have (effectively) blown it for all of us...

John TGS.

I wondered how long it would take to get to the real point.

Although a central body may prove useful if necessary, your statement says it all. It's also the main reason I haven't added my comments previously.

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Good Shepherds:

Of course, when folks try putting together a framework by which such "community" negotiations *could* be run, whingers from another camp start quibbling over trifling details like the use of the word "The" instead of "A".

One of the biggest debates in the financial community was over the use of the word 'a' instead of 'the' in the sentance "A True and Accurate record" that is used in the accounts of a company.

The devil is always in the detail!

--... ...--

Morseman

1.4k · May 13, 2003

One of the biggest debates in the financial community was over the use of the word 'a' instead of 'the' in the sentance "A True and Accurate record" that is used in the accounts of a company.

The devil is always in the detail!

--... ...--

Morseman

Sorry , in my 15 odd years as an accountant, I have never come across this debate. Merging of the 3 main institutes, - yes this causes a lot of grief from time to time.

The wording that is actually used is 'a true and fair view'. It is a and not the partly because many accounting standards allow a choice in the method of their application.

Auditors would never sign anything that purported to confirm a true and accurate record anyway, as they don't have time to review every transaction - there are already enough lawsuits involving auditors!

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

Sorry , in my 15 odd years as an accountant, I have never come across this debate. Merging of the 3 main institutes, - yes this causes a lot of grief from time to time.

OK, I'll let you argue it with the lecturers at Leeds Met. Uni. then.

The point I think they were making, and appologies for getting the words wrong, was that there is a difference between "the" and "a" and it it can make a difference to the attude that people will take if you decide that you are going to try to be "the" voice for everyone involved in whatever activity it is.

It's the same with the RSGB, they claim to represent every Radio Amateur in the UK, and that causes bad feeling in some people as well.

If you claim to be "the" one voice then you can probably expect flack from those who, for whatever reason, don't want you to speak for them.

I would expect an accountant not to sign something that purported to be "the" one and only way to represent a set of accounts because there are different ways to interpret the rules. And, let's face it, if the accountants can't agree then what chance have you of getting a disparate band of geocachers to come up with something they can all agree on?

--... ...--

Morseman

1.4k · May 13, 2003

quote:
OK, I'll let you argue it with the lecturers at Leeds Met. Uni. then.

Maybe that's a case of 'those wot can........'

quote:
It's the same with the RSGB, they claim to represent every Radio Amateur in the UK, and that causes bad feeling in some people as well.

If you claim to be "the" one voice then you can probably expect flack from those who, for whatever reason, don't want you to speak for them.

--... ...--Morseman

Agreed. But I think in this case it was an aim, that probably would have been changed by the members following all the recent debate.

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

quote:

1.4k · May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

quote:
OK, I'll let you argue it with the lecturers at Leeds Met. Uni. then.

Maybe that's a case of 'those wot can........'

quote:
It's the same with the RSGB, they claim to represent every Radio Amateur in the UK, and that causes bad feeling in some people as well.

If you claim to be "the" one voice then you can probably expect flack from those who, for whatever reason, don't want you to speak for them.

--... ...--Morseman

Agreed. But I think in this case it was an aim, that probably would have been changed by the members following all the recent debate.

PS - except I've just received a regular mailing from AccountingWeb

quote:
The AccountingWEB Insider
The voice of the accounting community

and nobody gets excited about that.

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources:

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Mudplugger:

quote:
Besides, there is always that ultimate choice: publicise the cache on *another* web site that *will* permit you to put food into caches, place them 'bad' places etc

In order for the association to gain universal acceptance it will have to encompass these *other* websites of which you speak and actively attract on to the committee people from them in order for it to be able to represent caching in the UK.

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

I had an interesting reply from the Maryland Geocachers Society: is seem that they do NOT bother with the 'other sites'.

MGS is responsible for the approving of all GC.COM caches in its area, and one of MGS's important jobs is talking to the various authorities, negotiating guidelines to allow cachers to continue to place caches. As such, to have a cache approved, the cache HAS TO meet the MGS guildelines / rules.

This is a simple statment of FACT.... feel free to visit their website to confirm it.

Paul Blitz

May 13, 2003

Paul,

It appears you did not fully understand my point I said ...

quote:
In order for the association to gain universal acceptance it will have to encompass these *other* websites of which you speak and actively attract on to the committee people from them in order for it to be able to represent caching in the UK.

Of course it doesn't *have* to but if it doesn't it cannot purport to represent all cachers in the UK only a proportion of them.

Don't need to visit their website I'm sure your right.

May 13, 2003

Just a couple of final questions before we all put this to bed:

1. Why did the forming members of GAGB keep all their discussions so secret until their hand was forced by a posting on GC:UK, (quote: Moss Trooper)?

2. I can totally understand why the cache approvers would be on the "committee", but what was the rationale behind the others?

Bah, humbug!

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:
.... feel free to visit their website to confirm it.

Nice website. I particularly like this bit..

We do not enforce rules or make them..

Some mistake, surely??

Alex.

---------------------------------------------------

Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout.....

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Scrooge:
2. I can totally understand why the cache approvers would be on the "committee", but what was the rationale behind the others?

There doesn't have to be any rationale.

Anyway its irrelevant now. Put to bed.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by el10t:
There doesn't have to be any rationale.

....... and you wonder why there was such a stink?

Where's the boat go from..??

May 13, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Dr Crippen:
....... and you wonder why there was such a stink?

Yes I do wonder that.

I also wonder why some people enjoy creating fake IDs and posting complete rubbish just to keep the argument going but there you go. Put to bed again.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

May 24, 2003

Now things have quietened down for a week or two it seems OK to ask - What's happening with GAGB?

Is it still in existence? Are elections still planned? Are the founders still around (apart from T&J who I know have resigned)?

No hidden agenda, just curious.

May 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by piggly:
Now things have quietened down for a week or two it seems OK to ask - What's happening with GAGB?

Is it still in existence? Are elections still planned? Are the founders still around (apart from T&J who I know have resigned)?

No hidden agenda, just curious.

A very good question Piggly , I also would like to know if this is still going to happen, in my opinion its a very positive move forward for the sport and can only do it good. They have my total support .

Nige

May 24, 2003

Thanks Northumbrian.

Yes the idea of the association is still around and hasn't been totally diguarded though it has to be said that it lost some momentum given the passionate discussions that took place recently.

The website is being updated to reflect everyone's helpful suggestions and things will progress if everyone who signed up wants it.

Rich

mobilis in mobili

June 1, 2003

Sorry a bit late, but any body that would seek to be "the" voice would get the same flack from me.

I'm not an Accountant (ain't that obvious!) but I am a member of Prospect. They represent such a diverse group I doubt if they would dare claim to be "the" voice of any one group now!

In my opinion and experience, beware any group that claims it has the one voice. They probably arn't and haven't. Oh, and my experience is that if you want to really slow up, and mess up anything - Form a Committee! If there were any issue that I wanted to stop in its tracks, I would now say I was in full support, and start a committee dedicated to talking about what is 'best' to be done. Guaranteed to nip anything I personally don't want in the bud straight away! It may not be what you intended, but how would you stop that happening?

Then, what if I (for one) just refused to recognise what you said were the rules? You might bluster and blow, but I could still just go alone to talk to a landowner and blow your "The Voice" straight off the map. Excuse the pun.

Please excuse the lateness of posting - Family issues. 50th Birthday (not mine!), party etc. Plus Dad having to go back for Chemo Therapy have distracted me.

--... ...--

Morseman

June 2, 2003

Hi Morseman ,I have been a member of half a dozen different associations,some have been a pain but others have been very good,for instance the LDWA and The Ramblers Association.Both groups represent certain kinds of walkers but not all walkers.In the case of The Ramblers they represent a large mass of walkers but again not all walkers.At the same time they do a massive amount of work that benefits ALL walkers including us as geocachers.It would appear that you have had some bad experiences with various groups but this is not universal

June 2, 2003

No, we're the "associated cachers of GB" the "British Great cachers association" are over there.

Cue Omally

It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses.

June 2, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Ambu:
No, we're the "associated cachers of GB" the "British Great cachers association" are over there.

Cue Omally

Eh? What? Someone call? <hides Guinness>

Whatever happen to the PFJ anyway?

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

GAGB Again.....

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