+TheCat Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Hi, It is with some regret that I write this post. I have tried to contact the guys on geocaching.com re the stats pages that we provide on geocacheuk.com apart from one response from Elias we have heard nothing more from them. I do not know what to do anymore. I have put alot of time and cash in to the site not to mention the fantastic work that Teasel has done with the UK Stats. But there comes a time when you have to cut your losses. I have tried to provide a service for UK cachers at no cost to them and was willing to continue doing this. But I am fed up trying to get a response from geocaching.com. I do understand that thay are busy guys but to ask for a dialog and then not respond is not on. With this in mind (unless something happens soon) Geocacheuk.com will cease operation this weekend. I will use the resources elsewhere. As I cant justify continuing to fund the site with no response from geocaching.com. I am sorry to have to do this but I dont know what else to do. I would like to thank those of you that I have met over the last few months and I have had a great time. I will still carry on caching in the future but the site will be no more. Many thanks for all the fun. Mark (TheCat) Administrator GeocacheUK.com Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+John Stead Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Please don't - I do hope you hear from Geocaching soon and can keep Geocacheuk going. We do appreciate it. Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 I am able to keep the site running with no problem. But we wish to provide the Uk related information pages. We could keep on doing that without permission from geocaching.com like a number of other sites. We decided however to suspend the stats while we talked to the guys at geocaching.com but we are getting no response. The first message I sent to them was to ask for permission to continue to webscrape the data (as we where doing) while we sorted out a more formal arrangement but no response. Believe me when I say that I want to keep the site running but if geocaching.com are not going to talk to us then what are we to do. Regards Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+Slytherin Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Give it a little longer Mark. The guys at ground-no-speak are always a little slow off the mark. Hopefully they will get their act together before it's too late. If not, I can see an awful lot of Charter Memberships not getting renewed. Alex. Link to comment
+The Hornet Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Mark, this is terrible news. I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating what you have put together in a remarkably short time. It has proved to be an immensely useful adjunct to the main Geocaching.com site and provided a focal point for UK geocachers whithout crossing that boundary into comeptition with the main site. This is not the first time Jeremy and the other guys at Geocaching.com have gone very silent over something that is not US based. Yes they are busy but surely entering into a dialogue with you shouldn't present a major problem. Perhaps if a certain name were mentioned you might generate a rapid response Having said all that I quite understand your frustration and have to understand your decision. However would it be possible to keep the non-stats part of the site ticking over? I'd hate to see it fold completely. Many, many thanks again for all your efforts, Peter _________________________________________________________ It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do. Link to comment
el10t Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 This really is terrible news. Mark has done a hell of a lot to get the site going. It is a real shame that we get no response from GC.com once again, despite the comment from Jeremy in another thread that he would happily enter dialog. I am entirely in agreement with Alex re the charter membership numbers. Rich mobilis in mobili Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Don't give up yet, Mark. Wait a while longer. You, and everyone involved in GeocacheUK, have accomplished too much and provided too great a service to the UK geocaching community (IMHO) to give up unless everything fails. I have become almost dependent on the UK stats pages for my complete enjoyment of the sport. Until Jeremy Irish objected, I was very conscious that Teasel's wizardry (built on what Rob&Lisa started) had added a huge amount of fun and facilty and was providing a greater useabilty and overall enhancement to Jeremy's geocaching.com. So much so that, despite my great reluctance to use PayPal, I was about to cough up my $30 and become a charter member. I can appreciate Jeremy may be peeved that, through oversight and misunderstanding, no-one managed to obtain his direct consent to webscrape geocaching.com. I'm sure no offence was intended and that we all regret he has apparently taken umbrage. But maybe he has not. Perhaps he is just too busy to respond for the moment. Let's hope the next few days will see a positive response from geocaching.com. After all, geocacheUK.com only enhances what Jeremy provides. It takes absolutely nothing away. So, be patient Mark. Jeremy must see the good you have been doing. ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! [This message was edited by washboy on December 02, 2002 at 08:16 AM.] Link to comment
Seifer Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Slytherin:If not, I can see an awful lot of Charter Memberships not getting renewed. Alex. Good idea, and those of us who are not yet may decide not to after all ï mây bé dùmb bù± ïm ñøt §±ùpïd Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl! 26 27.75 34.2(recuring) 41.09275 480.048 55.027777777(carrys on!) 62.01749271 Link to comment
+SimonG Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 I certainly hope some arrangement can be reached. I've come to rely on the .mps cache files from GeocacheUK. I went to download the latest version at the weekend only to find it wasn't there! I had to enter the waypoint manually! It really would be a shame if this is discontinued permanently, along with all the other valuable services you've provided. SimonG PS. Happy now, Huga? ............................................................................... Fnwu n ies galu rnseupyu cesf pucieut. Aj yahltu tagu aj sfug nys bhgi - sfuq'lu ajsup tshbupst, jal funwup't tnzu. - Sullq Rlnsyfuss Link to comment
+SimonG Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 I just realised that the PS in my previous post might have looked like I was blaming Huga for GUK closing down. I wasn't - I was referring to something completely unrelated. ............................................................................... Fnwu n ies galu rnseupyu cesf pucieut. Aj yahltu tagu aj sfug nys bhgi - sfuq'lu ajsup tshbupst, jal funwup't tnzu. - Sullq Rlnsyfuss Link to comment
+Tim & June Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 The reason the "moderators hat" is off for this post is because I do not wish this post to be read as official Geocaching.com response but my own comments. I have been trying to look at this from all sides, and I have to agree that it would be a shame to loose the stats as provided by Marks site. If nothing else they have been entertaining. Teasel and Mark have done a terrific job. However, consider the other side of the coin, Jeremy does not know Mark personally and therefore cannot be entirely sure of his intentions. Mark, I am not suggesting for one moment that your intentions are anything but honourable, I am just proposing an alternate point of view. Suppose for a moment if you will, that a certain unmentionable had provided the facilities on his site that Mark has been doing, and Jeremy just handed over the data. Later, when all the trouble started, would we have forgiven Jeremy for making it so easy for that person to obtain what could be a powerful hold over caching in the UK ? I have no reason to assume, suspect, suggest or imply that Mark is doing anything but enjoying the sport and giving caching something of a helping hand in the UK. It has to be asked, should Jeremy take his time before he takes any action which has a potential to impinge on Geocaching.com. The stats are not the be-all-and-end-all of the site so I would suggest, as others have Mark, if you can, give it some time before making any decision. Thanks for listening. Tim & June (Winchester) See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 Thank you all for your support in this matter. I will state my position in this matter for all to read. Geocacheuk.com was setup as a rescource for UK cachers. When I first started the site I made a few rules these have been stated to cachers I have met during my travels etc (CIN Fox Hunt etc). 1, GeocacheUK will NEVER charge its users for acces to the site or any of its services. 2, GeocacheUK will never log caches etc on the site Geocaching.com provides that service and as I have said before if it aint broke dont fix it. I can understand Jeremy does not know me but if he would like to let me have a phone number I would be more than willing to call him and discuss the situation. We give credit on the site stats pages to geocaching.com as the source of the data we use. I want to continue to run the site as a service for UK cachers is that wrong. We can provide extra services to the UK Cachers with little or no drain on geocaching.com and there rescources. If anything the UK site will get more members to use the geocaching.com site for if you are not registered on geocaching.com nothing will be gained from our site. I hope this sets my position re geocaching.com and geocacheuk.com Oh if Jeremy is reading this and would like to email me at mark@geocacheuk.com with a phone number and a time it would be convineant to call I will do just that. Oh by the way I would not release the phone number to anyone else. Regards Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+naffita Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Please give it a while Mark. After all the work that must have gone into the stats pages it must be frustrating to now lose them, but the rest of the site took some time too, please don’t throw that away. Geocacheuk is not just for stats surely? OK, the stats are a part of the site, but did you have that in mind when you set up the site? I can understand you wanting to provide a comprehensive service, and to lose access to statistics is a lessening of that service, but the rest of the site is still functioning and still being developed and provides another resource. I can only hope that you give it a little more time to see how things work out before pulling the plug. naffita Link to comment
+cone_dxf & family Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Mark, don't give up please, the site has been tremendously valuable for geocaching in the UK, and your personal contribution both in money and time has been huge. I read Tim & June's posting, and understand the point they are making, It may well be that Jeremy etc. are protecting a commercial position, or seeking advice, however to not respond at all is just plain rude. I hope that Jeremy will respond, and rapidly agree an interim arrangement without prejudice to either side. As a final thought, I know you are commited to not chargeing people to use Geocacheuk but have you considered giving people the opportunity to contribute if they wanted to ? Keep up the good work Mark & family Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 quote: Suppose for a moment if you will, that a certain unmentionable had provided the facilities on his site that Mark has been doing, and Jeremy just handed over the data. Later, when all the trouble started, would we have forgiven Jeremy for making it so easy for that person to obtain what could be a powerful hold over caching in the UK ? Unless I completely misunderstand, this is an issue of etiquette and manners, not technology. Not even copyright. It is not a case of whether Jeremy hands over the data (or not). As registered users of GC.com, we all download web pages containing data about caches and log reports. That is the principal function of the site. In this way, Jeremy already "hands over" the data. Normally speaking, though, we only view that information on screen. We don't keep it on our computers in a database - or do we? Many of us use the GC.com facility to download cache details to EasyGPS for manipulation there. So Jeremy obviously wants us to be able to make more use of the data. In principle, all that Rob&Lisa/Mark/Teasel's system does is "view" every UK-related cache page and log report on GC.com and then store pertinent details in a database. That database can then be interrogated to provide the reports (and downloads) we were used to seeing on geocacheUK.com. Those reports merely link back to the very GC.com pages from whence the data was gleaned in the first place. Net result: GC.com is of more use to UK users. Jeremy has more satisfied UK users without the need to invest development and programming time to provide UK-biased customisations and features. He can concentrate on US users. Mark gets a warm fuzzy feeling. We all get happy and send Jeremy more money. If that certain unmentionable had wanted to have the data, he could have done so without Jeremy's permission. All he would have needed is the appropriate programming expertise. If Mark & Teasel were up to no good they could have ignored Jeremy's hints of annoyance (in this forum only) and carried on regardless. As Mark has indicated, several people/sites already routinely "nick" data from GC.com. Jeremy does not stop this from happening but he is presumably not pleased about it. Apperently his earlier silence did not constitute consent (as, I guess, Rob&Lisa assumed). Upon learning of Jeremy's displeasure, Mark and Teasel have done the gentlemanly thing by immediately ceasing to continue the offending activity. They have approached Jeremy with apologies and reassurances of their benign intentions. Let's hope that Jeremy has simply been too busy enjoying the Thanksgiving festivities to read his email and that, shortly, he will enter into a constructive dialogue. ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! [This message was edited by washboy on December 02, 2002 at 12:58 PM.] Link to comment
+The Wombles Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 We'd like to add our plea to keep the G:UK site running. It's very useful and contributes a great deal to caching in the UK. Jeremy is obviously up to his ears in running the G.com site and no-one could doubt his dedication. I'm sure he's just not got round to this issue yet. Perhaps it would be helpful if everyone who uses the G:UK site posts a message of support here to be sure that Jeremy is aware how many cachers find it useful. Dave Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 If you look at the boards Jeremy hasn't posted anything for a few days so he is probably busy, out caching or worse still got some sort of life outside of Geocaching.com! Also the 28th was thanksgiving day in the states so he might well have been taking a well deserved long weekends holiday. Can we just hold on a while and see what happens when he comes back to us? Chris Bear rescues a speciality! London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Link to comment
Elias Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 As indicated above, I had a brief conversation with Mark last week about trying to find a way to work with Geocacheuk.com so he could provide additional services for UK geocachers. This thread has completely taken me by surprise and is inconsistent with that conversation or our desire to help him with his site. I can only suspect that his desire to take down Geocacheuk.com must stem from something else because it certainly wasn't because of us. I'm still open to working with another UK-specific site to help provide additional services to UK geocachers. If anyone here is interested, please feel free to e-mail me. -Elias Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 First let me say I was unaware that it was Thanksgiving Holiday in the USA. This would of course explain the delay. I have recieved a message from Elias saying he has been away from geocaching.com over the holiday hence the lack of response. He still wants to work with us so I hereby state that GeocacheUK will not be shutting down we will be continuing to provide the service of UK Stats etc as soon as we have worked out the details with Geocaching.com. I would also like to apologise to all at geocaching.com for any offence I might of caused. Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+John Stead Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 Thank goodness for that! Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote:Originally posted by washboy: In principle, all that Rob&Lisa/Mark/Teasel's system does is "view" every UK-related cache page and log report on GC.com and then store pertinent details in a database. That database can then be interrogated to provide the reports (and downloads) we were used to seeing on geocacheUK.com. Those reports merely link back to the very GC.com pages from whence the data was gleaned in the first place. This is true, but the web scrape software "views" the site as fast as it can. The time between HTTP requests is probably several hundred (or thousand) times faster than human viewing. This results in quite a heavy load on the site while the program is running. When I used to run it, it took about an hour on even a fast link. This is probably the real reason Jeremy doesn't like webscrape software, hence the need to ask his permission to use it. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote: This is true, but the web scrape software "views" the site as fast as it can. The time between HTTP requests is probably several hundred (or thousand) times faster than human viewing. This results in quite a heavy load on the site while the program is running. When I used to run it, it took about an hour on even a fast link. This is probably the real reason Jeremy doesn't like webscrape software, hence the need to ask his permission to use it. My simplistic explanation was in response to T&J's comment about JeremyI not giving the data to the likes of "he who shall not be named". My point was that the data is taken, not given and that if HWSNBN wanted it, he could get it. That said, I'd like it on record that I totally agree with the need to ask JeremyI for his permission (as, I'm sure, do Mark and Teasel). ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! Link to comment
+Bill D (wwh) Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 jeremyp wrote: quote:This is true, but the web scrape software "views" the site as fast as it can. The time between HTTP requests is probably several hundred (or thousand) times faster than human viewing. If this is the problem, that the software causes a big load on the server in a short time, then couldn't it be re-written to spread the load over a period, in the same way that many search engine robots do? Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 4, 2002 Share Posted December 4, 2002 quote: ...couldn't it be re-written to spread the load over a period, I think I remember Teasel mentioning in another thread that he had done things to reduce the amount of "hammering" it caused GC.com. The impression I got is that the stats system, as we saw it latterly, is somewhat different "under the bonnet" to what it was originally. No doubt Mark or Teasel would have commented to this by now if it weren't such a delicate issue ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 5, 2002 Author Share Posted December 5, 2002 Just a quick response. The system we use now puts far less of a drain on GC.com as we now only look for updated pages on six days of the week. On the seventh we do a full download to catch any late log additions. The system we used before did a full download each day. On another matter we are now in dialog with GC.com trying to sort things out so we can restart the stats system. Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+Teasel Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by washboy: quote: ...couldn't it be re-written to spread the load over a period, I think I remember Teasel mentioning in another thread that he had done things to reduce the amount of "hammering" it caused GC.com. The impression I got is that the stats system, as we saw it latterly, is somewhat different "under the bonnet" to what it was originally. No doubt Mark or Teasel would have commented to this by now if it weren't such a delicate issue It's a complete rewrite, from scratch. The main difference is that all the data is now held in a database, so the creation of web pages is totally separated from the harvesting of the cache data. The advantages of this are that i) we don't have to retrieve all caches every night; ii) it's very easy to quickly knock up new reports (and be a show-off in the forums ) and iii) if we start getting data in a different way, we won't have to rewrite the user interface as well. Current total is around 6000 lines of code. None of the correspondance from Jeremy and Elias has so far explicitly mentioned the load on their web server; the main issue is that of ownership, care and usage of the data. Sure, other sites out there webscrape cache data from geocaching.com, maybe with less regard for server load. The problem (other than our initial rudeness!) is that by crossing the border between interest and utility, GeocacheUK has raised more issues for geocaching.com. At the risk of stating the obvious, our discussions so far involve trying to persuade geocaching.com that we're "nice people to do business with", arguing that having extra functionality on GeocacheUK improves rather then competes with the "geocaching.com experience", and discussing what data we'd like to use, and how we'd like to use it. Link to comment
+element14 Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 If it's such a problem to have it on your website, could the code be put on the geocaching.com site, giving them "ownership". You could licence the code to them, for a small consideration eg free charter membership, or whatever (depends on how valuable the code is to you). This way it is more integrated with the rest of the website. Link to comment
+Chris n Maria Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 Mark, now that Postcode searching is provided by geocaching.com. Can we remove them from GeocacheUK - so that we are not duplicating functionality. Cheers chris Bear rescues a speciality! London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net Link to comment
+Postie Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by TheCat:On another matter we are now in dialog with GC.com trying to sort things out so we can restart the stats system. Mark (TheCat) http://www.geocacheuk.com YIPPEE!! I have realy missed the stats page over the last few weeks!! Keep up the good work guys. (Every one needs a bigger letterbox!) Link to comment
+BigNick Posted December 6, 2002 Share Posted December 6, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Teasel:None of the correspondance from Jeremy and Elias has so far explicitly mentioned the load on their web server; the main issue is that of ownership, care and usage of the data. Which is kinda weird because the new GPX pocket query is going to give all that information away anyway - I wonder why it matters that you are doing it via a screenscape? Cheers Nick Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 quote: Which is kinda weird because the new GPX pocket query is going to give all that information away anyway Until now, I'd presumed that Jeremy/Grounded claim no ownership of the details of the caches and log reports on GC.com. My presumption was based on the fact that no membership or registration is required to access cache pages and there is no requirement to accept a license agreement in order to get access to or contribute to those pages. Then I became a Charter Member (see, told you I would ) and could finally access the Pocket Queries facility. What is the first thing I saw there? Bang! - A license agreement stating, essentially, that Grounded, Inc. claims ownership of everything on the site, which means all the descriptive text, photographs, etc that we all routinely contribute. Technically speaking, we would all be in breach of copyright if we published details of our own caches and/or finds on, for example, a personal website. Several people already do that. I have to say, I'm not particularly impressed that I've been encouraged to contibute data to an apparently license-free repository only to be informed later (when I've contributed funds to help support that repository) that I don't actually own my own data and that I need a license to use it! Something's amiss here ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! Link to comment
+Richard & Beth Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 It is worth saying that Geocaching.com has always claimed copyright of their cache details. It has produced some heated discussions in the past, most notably when the Buxley maps were temporarily removed back in June 2001. (see here for the discussion on Slashdot at the time) Richard Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Hmm, I tried hard to find a statement that says that all cache details and logs are copyright Grounded, Inc. but with some trouble. I did find this in the disclaimer: quote:This website is for personal and non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, excerpt, distribute, transmit, publish, license, create derivative works from, or sell any information, or services obtained from this website. which is fairly clear, but whether it could be upheld in court is an interesting question. I always understood that for a contract to be valid, there had to be some sort of exchange of cash which means that us charter members could possibly be sued but not the normal members. Even if it is legally worthless, I think it is still a reasonable thing to ask of people since they put a lot of hard work into the site and don't want other people "parasiting" on the back of it. Technically geocachinguk.com is in breach of the conditions but as it doesn't try to compete with gc.com but provide services not on the gc.com website, I would regard as being OK and within the spirit of the law. The copyright notice at the bottom of each cache page is interesting too. How would the courts view a copyright notice on a page that is clearly machine generated? I could not find anything on the web site that requires me to assign copyright on any of my caches or logs to Grounded, Inc so as far as I am concerned it is still mine. Not that I have a problem with it unless Jeremy decides to sue me for posting my cache details and/or logs on my own website aswell as his. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Link to comment
+paul.blitz Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 quote:The copyright notice at the bottom of each cache page is interesting too. How would the courts view a copyright notice on a page that is clearly machine generated? A book / Magazine is copyright... do you really think that parts of most modern books aren't as "machine generated" as the geocaching pages? Start with the copyright notices & dates at the front of a book, then the Contents & Index pages... all "machine generated". Now turn to TV / Films... plenty there that is machine generated, but is still copyrighted. The computer is just a tool, the design and "contents" of the pages are "put together" by "geocaching.com"....... Paul Team Blitz No, I gave YOU the spare batteries.... Link to comment
+welch Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Richard & Beth:Geocaching.com Has Always Claimed Copyright It is worth saying that Geocaching.com has always claimed copyright of their cache details. It has produced some heated discussions in the past, most notably when the Buxley maps were temporarily removed back in June 2001. (see http://slashdot.org/articles/01/06/05/2222249.shtml for the discussion on Slashdot at the time) Richard From what i remember of some of those "heated" threads is that gc.com claims the collection of data, but not your own personal cache. Anyways... what brought that up? EDIT: some other threads about data ownership. April 09/02, July of 01, Open Season??, more, Pin maps... this is when one the threads about the gc.com & Ed Hall's maps dispute. Out of the last thread linked theres this piece by Jeremy, which seems to outline his "ownership" (sorta long): posted May 28, 2001 05:18 PM -------------------------------------------------Geocaching.com owns the collection of data. The data entered by individuals who place caches on the web site also own their own data. So basically, you can't go to the geocaching.com web site and suck down via a program or type in the information on to another web site, publication, etc, or attempt to profit from that info. An example would be publishing a book on Geocaching that contained a list of coordinates and sell it to the public. Another way would be to take the data from the web site and create another web site with that information. This not only protects the original cache owner that entered the data, but protects the game from other sites cropping up with information from the web site that may be inaccurate or just plain wrong. In addition it protects your personal data on the site from someone attempting to take and sell it to someone. If you owned a cache and wanted to list it on your web site, another web site, or whatever, it's your deal. Having a copyright on the data does not mean that you no longer have rights to what you entered. If you want to use the data for your own personal use, that's fine too as long as you don't redistribute the data (i.e. on another web site). I don't own your physical cache, nor would I want to. It relates to "information and services" obtained from this web site. Jeremy << [This message was edited by welch on December 07, 2002 at 05:51 PM.] Link to comment
+Richard & Beth Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:Hmm, I tried hard to find a statement that says that all cache details and logs are copyright Grounded, Inc. but with some trouble. I did find this in the disclaimer: Indeed. I've had a dig around, but I'm still trying to find exactly where I got the information from originally. There is a forum discussion along similar lines here however there is not, as Jeremy has said, anything specific in what is currently on the site, and having done a quick run through old copies of the Geocaching web site using the Wayback Machine at The Internet Archive there doesn't seem to have been before. Most of the more explicit comments and discussions about data ownership I can find are on the long standing GPSStash group on Yahoo which has had several discussions on the subject, and also on the alt.rec.geocaching usenet group which you can trawl through on Google if you wish. Richard [This message was edited by Richard & Beth on December 07, 2002 at 05:46 PM.] [This message was edited by Richard & Beth on December 07, 2002 at 05:48 PM.] Link to comment
+washboy Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Sincere thanks to Richard & Beth and welch for taking time to indicate the "history" behind this issue. Several hours reading later... I should have known better than to post without first trawling the forum archives to check if the topic had already been done to death. After all, it's not very often that I have an original thought (and this wasn't one of them either!) So, my apologies to all present. I'll try not to react so quickly in future. I'd delete my original post, if I believed in censorship. I guess I'm simply getting frustrated at the continued lack of stats pages and the convenience they provided. They've been offline now for what seems like an age and it's all too easy to fear that "dialog with GC.com" is not progressing very well. BTW, Mark/TheCat, you're as guilty as JeremyI re not responding to e-mails! Anyway, I'll sidle off now to further digest what I've learned through all this. The archives made very disheartening reading ===== There's no such thing as a free lunchbox! Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by washboy: I should have known better than to post without first trawling the forum archives to check if the topic had already been done to death. After all, it's not very often that I have an original thought (and this wasn't one of them either!) I wouldn't worry too much about whether a topic has already been done to death. IMHO topics are discussed many times over because they are important or interesting to somebody. Situations and opinions change, so what may have been the consensus one day may not be the next. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Team Blitz: quote:The copyright notice at the bottom of each cache page is interesting too. How would the courts view a copyright notice on a page that is clearly machine generated? A book / Magazine is copyright... do you really think that parts of most modern books aren't as "machine generated" as the geocaching pages? Start with the copyright notices & dates at the front of a book, then the Contents & Index pages... all "machine generated". Now turn to TV / Films... plenty there that is machine generated, but is still copyrighted. The computer is just a tool, the design and "contents" of the pages are "put together" by "geocaching.com"....... Errr.. I'm afraid you've completely missed my point. I'm not arguing about most of the geocaching site pages or the code or even the look and feel of the cache pages. If you specifically look at a typical cache page. It is automatically generated by pulling the description (written by a non-employee of Grounded Inc) from a database and a load of logs from a database (also written by a non-employee of Grounded Inc). So the cache page is generated from different sources with differently copyrighted material on it. How can a copyright notice at the bottom of such a page be valid? To take one of your examples and bend it round to the point I was trying to make: suppose I write a book by taking lots of other people's short stories and putting them all together in one volume. Can I claim copyright on the whole book? no. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Link to comment
+paul.blitz Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 quote:To take one of your examples and bend it round to the point I was trying to make: suppose I write a book by taking lots of other people's short stories and putting them all together in one volume. Can I claim copyright on the whole book? no. Remember that there are many "levels" of copyright. Let me explain in music terms, then apply to this book you describe. Someone owns the copyright of "Yesterday" (Michael Jackson? Sony?). If I sing that song and record it, then (a) I DO INDEED own the copyright of that PERFORMANCE, whilst the song owner owns the copyright of the original song. If the song is played on the radio, then we BOTH get paid. If its released on a record, the "publisher" (record company) owns copyright of that record. On the book: The Bible is NOT copyright (its a bit old for that!), but if I print it, then MY PUBLICATION is copyrighted to me. So if I put out a book, with YOUR story in it, then you can claim the author's copyright, and I can claim copyright on the actual published book. I pay you, the shops pay me. (if I were to publish your story in my book *without* your permission, then I will have broken your copyright and you can sue me and WILL win). So now to a web page: I publish a web page: I own copyright on the "publication". You may have contributed, so you can claim "authors copyright" on what you wrote. (Of course, you may have been deemed to have read a disclaimer which gave up your rights of copyright when you hit the key!) Generally, unless specifically agreed in a contract, an author may also publish his work elsewhere without reference to that original publisher. However, many book, magazine, newspaper and music publishers will insist on "exclusivity" (and will usually have to pay more for that!). (If you are interested to know why I know all about this: I'm involved in Hospital Radio, where we are covered by those copyright rules, and so I've spent time reading about them! Yes, I AM indeed sad!!) Paul Team Blitz No, I gave YOU the spare batteries.... Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I think we are basically in agreement. I own the copyright on the text of my logs and gc.com owns copyright on the pages although technically they should acknowledge copyright of contributors on the text. If we look at common sense and what is basically fair, the owners of gc.com have spent a lot of money time and effort on the site and so have a right to be aggrieved if other people directly rip off work published on their site. OTOH they are dependent on people like us for the content and success of the site and so I believe we (as contributers) have a moral (if not legal) right to scrape the content to provide services not supplied by gc.com. ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching Link to comment
MCL Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:To take one of your examples and bend it round to the point I was trying to make: suppose I write a book by taking lots of other people's short stories and putting them all together in one volume. Can I claim copyright on the whole book? no. Oh abso-friggin-lutely you can! What you publish is called an "edition" and you are the "Editor" and that particular edition is your copyright. The design, the layout, the choice of items itself is an artistic work, and you own the copyright for that piece of art you have created. Of course the individual writers of the stories still own the copyright in their own stories and you will have had to clear that copyright with them in order to publish the book. The 1988 Copyright designs and Patents Act lays out quite clearly that copyright subsists in any work that adds creative or artistic content, whether or not that content was created by a person or a machine. This was mainly to allow for the then somewhat younger software industry to claim copyright in a program (prior to that it had only been enshrined in case law) Why do I know so much about the Copyright laws? Well I have been heavily involved in Hospital Radio and....oh dadgum, someone has done that one already! No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.... Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 15, 2002 Author Share Posted December 15, 2002 Just a quick update to let you know what is going on. We are in the process of working things out with GC.com and things are looking good for the return of the stats feature on geocacheuk.com in the not to distant future. I would like to take this opertunity to thank all the guys at GC.com in particular Elias who is being very helpfull. One last thing I would like to point out is that Geocacheuk.com is not a site in compitition with GC.com we are here to provide a service to UK Geocachers. Little can be done with the stats features if you are not a member of GC.com as we have no facility to log caches etc and we never will. So if you are not a member of Geocaching.com and woujld like to use our UK stats features when they come back on-line now would be a good time to sign up with Geocaching.com. Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+The Hornet Posted December 15, 2002 Share Posted December 15, 2002 This sounds good Mark. I've really been missing the stats pages so I look forward to you and GC getting things sorted. Keep up the good work, Peter _________________________________________________________ It is better to regret something you did, rather than to regret something you didn't do. Link to comment
L8 Ed Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Do it anyway. If you don't feel you can, let someone else get the stats and link from your site. It worked well like that before no hassle. Perhaps anothe geocache uk web site may take it on if you are worried about the Yanks. ED Link to comment
el10t Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:Do it anyway. If you don't feel you can, let someone else get the stats and link from your site. It worked well like that before no hassle. Perhaps anothe geocache uk web site may take it on if you are worried about the Yanks. ED This approach would be the best way to get the whole thing closed down for good! Actually, I suspect this is an inflamatory note from a troll - no finds, no hides and only 3 forum posts. Hmmm. Rich mobilis in mobili Link to comment
+The Northumbrian Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:Do it anyway. If you don't feel you can, let someone else get the stats and link from your site. It worked well like that before no hassle. Perhaps anothe geocache uk web site may take it on if you are worried about the Yanks. ED Pay no attention to this fellows advice Its just asking for bother, your going the correct way about it and I'm sure that you will sort it out . Everything that you have done in the past has always come up trumps. well done Mark Nige. Link to comment
+page28 Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 Keep up the negotiations, I would prefer to see the Very Very usefull stats pages for a long time to come, rather than get gung ho and loose it alltogether !!!! Cheers Mark Link to comment
+TheCat Posted December 16, 2002 Author Share Posted December 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:Do it anyway. If you don't feel you can, let someone else get the stats and link from your site. It worked well like that before no hassle. Perhaps anothe geocache uk web site may take it on if you are worried about the Yanks. ED We are now working very well with GC.com and things are progressing very well to see the return of the stats in the near future. If you think after all the work that Teasel and myself have put into the geocacheuk site we are going to risk it by just taking the information you are mistaken. Yeh we could do that but the reason we chose to close the stats down for the moment is a matter of politeness and the fact that when they return it will be with the blessing of Geocaching.com. Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Link to comment
+Teasel Posted December 16, 2002 Share Posted December 16, 2002 quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:Do it anyway. If you don't feel you can, let someone else get the stats and link from your site. It worked well like that before no hassle. Perhaps anothe geocache uk web site may take it on if you are worried about the Yanks. ED Yes, I can see it now... - We switch the stats pages back on - Jeremy wastes time adding us to his firewall - We waste time installing the scraper on another server - Jeremy wastes time randomly corrupting any requests made by our new server - We waste time writing code to bounce our requests off random proxies, at random intervals - Jeremy deletes our IDs and archives all our caches - We waste time creating new IDs and relogging all our finds - Jeremy continues to waste time and money threatening us and our ISP with tenuous international copyright law suits - The UK caching community realise they owe far more loyalty to Jeremy than to us, and don't visit our site anyway No, I enjoy geocaching, and I'm afraid I'd prefer not to fall on my sword in this way! As you say, there's nothing to stop another UK site from writing their own stats pages, deliberately against the wishes of geocaching.com. However GeocacheUK have chosen to negotiate with geocaching.com in the hope that this will provide the best long-term benefits to the UK geocaching community. ps is the pseudonym a reference to a certain Ed Hall? A good precedent, perhaps, but not one I'd prefer to follow myself. Link to comment
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