+Chris n Maria Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 In this thread there was some discussion as to whether moderators should allow caches in glass containers. So the question is: Should moderators allow caches which are described as being in glass containers ? Chris Quote Link to comment
+Nobby Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I voted for No. It may not be in the guidelines, but what is wrong with a moderator applying basic common sense. There is already enough broken glass in the countryside, why risk adding to it. I may not always agree with a moderators decision, but I will always respect them. They have a difficult job to do, and have to make what they think is the correct decision. Some will agree, others will not. I think you sometimes have to agree to disagree. Saying all that, in this instance I think perhaps the approver could have agreed to approve the cache, subject to the owner replacing the container at their earliest convenience. Simon (Nobby) Quote Link to comment
+makerofthingsup Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 The cache was approved subject to me changing the container when I next visit but I had to push for that decision. If you could see the location you'd understand why it is not a danger. It's heavy moss and heather, you'd have to first find it then break it on purpose. Quote Link to comment
Wilting Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I voted yes for much the same reason that Nobby voted no! I believe that common sense dictates that the danger from suitable glass containers is minimal. I think that admins/approvers should apply common sense as well. In his defence I think that Eckington did what he believed was correct but by the same token I think in this instance he was wrong. There's NOTHING in the GC guidelines that says a suitable glass container in the right place cannot be used. Let's not get ourselves in a situation where we impose extra restrictions upon ourselves unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. In the US for instance they say never place caches on/under bridges. Do we want to impose this restriction in the UK. I say NO. Let's apply as light a touch as possible. As happy as a piggy in ordure. Quote Link to comment
+The Bennett Family Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I voted NO. Is there a reason you need a glass container? If not the why take the chance? Using glass is surely ammunition for those who see us as litterer's of the countryside. We take our children everywhere, but they always find their way back home... Member of GAGB, enthusiastic user of G:UK, Charter M...oh never mind, we just like everyone. The Bennett Family Webspace Quote Link to comment
+TheCat Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I did not vote but one thing worth pointing out is the risk of fire caused by the sun being focused on the surounding vegetation through the glass. OK I know it is a remote chance but a chance never the less. Mark (TheCat) www.geocacheuk.com Quote Link to comment
+Criminal Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 quote:Is there a reason you need a glass container?If not the why take the chance? What chance? If you drop and break a jar/bottle on your kitchen floor, do you move out? http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Quote Link to comment
+Logscaler and Red Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 I voted yes. At this time there are no rules preventing them - and there should not be. Have you ever tried to light a fire with a random chunk of broken glass? Do not bet your life on getting a fire started with one. Common sense should tell you if the location will accept a glass container or not. The same as if the location would be suitable for a plastic container. How long would a plastic container last in the direct sunlight? How long would a small metal one last with ravens/gulls/raccoons/(other curious critters) in the area? Do you make sure there are no sharp edges on your containers? No seams that might come loose? Are your cache containers made of a flimsy metal that might get bent and create a sharp edge? Are your containers closed so tight a person might pull-strain a muscle getting it open? No paper inside to get paper cuts from? No instant tea/coffee/drink mix they might use hot water with and burn themselves? There are way to many other things that would be more problematic then a glass container. Where do you want to draw the line at? Quote Link to comment
+stu_and_sarah Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I think Stu mentioned the fire aspect of this. I imagine that the small fire which started in our house due to him leaving some prisms on the table would have made this spring to mind. Luckily it was just a piece of paper, but if we hadn't smelled the smoke it could have been a lot worse. Sarah -- Quote Link to comment
+plaid-dragon Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 I said No. IMHO, a glass container is more likely to cause a hazard than a non-glass container. With as wide a range of alternative containers available as there are, it seems unnecessary to use a glass one. The "traditional" tupperware and ammocans are less likely to break than glass. Breakage of metal/plastic is more likely due to wear and tear, and gradual damage like that I would expect to find reported on in the logs anyway, giving time to act on it :before: a hazard develops. Quote Link to comment
+paul.blitz Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 quote:So the question is:_Should moderators allow caches which are described as being in glass containers ?_ Chris As with ANY container, it needs to be "suitable and safe": apply common sense! If it's glass, and the cache is gonna be hidden in a rocky area, then "any old jar" is probably *NOT* suitable. But if we are thinking of a small strong glass jar (like a mustard jar....) that is hidden in the roots of a tree, then the liklihood of breakage is the same as for any other container... close to zero. Paul Quote Link to comment
LazyLeopard Posted July 9, 2003 Share Posted July 9, 2003 Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the location, the type of glass, and the lid. I can think of a few reasons why a glass container might not be best for a cache in some situations, but there are other situations where a plastic container wouldn't be a good idea, and yet others where an ammo box wouldn't be sensible. A transparent glass jar shouldn't be left in an area where the sun could shine through it onto dry tinder and start a fire. The jar would need to be tough enough to survive the sorts of knocks it'll get in the area it's hidden, and it'll need a water-tight lid. So I'd say it's mostly down to the cache hider's good sense, same as for any cache Quote Link to comment
+Teasel Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 I voted yes, as a blanket ban seems plain silly, but I have reservations. Having witnessed the accidental starting of a heather fire and then battled for over an hour with a dozen others to beat it out again, I can assure you that a thoughtlessly placed glass cache would be quite capable of destroying large areas of countryside and possibly risking both lives and property. However, caches should not be placed thoughtlessly, and we have the cache approvers as a final sanity check. So my GBP0.02 worth is let's not invent ourselves another new UK-only rule (like the UK ban on event caches without physical caches, and a possible UK ban on knives in caches), but let's think about the consequences of what we do and act responsibly. GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community. Quote Link to comment
+Hi-Tek Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Teasel:I voted yes, as a blanket ban seems plain silly, but I have reservations. Having witnessed the accidental starting of a heather fire and then battled for over an hour with a dozen others to beat it out again, I can assure you that a thoughtlessly placed glass cache would be quite capable of destroying large areas of countryside and possibly risking both lives and property. However, caches should not _be_ placed thoughtlessly, and we have the cache approvers as a final sanity check. So my GBP0.02 worth is let's not invent ourselves another new UK-only rule (like the UK ban on event caches without physical caches, and a possible UK ban on knives in caches), but let's think about the consequences of what we do and act responsibly. http://www.geocacheuk.com - resources for the UK Geocaching community. I voted 'maybe' because of similar thoughts to Teasel. It should be left to the cache placers common sense taking into consideration the actual hiding place with regards to the sun and surrounding terrain. I believe the guidelines cover this adequately and are just that, guidelines NOT rules. Let us not burden ourselves with too many UK specific regulations in order to gain approval. "Fear is temporary, regret is permanent!" motley. adj. varied in appearance or character. crew. n. group of people. Quote Link to comment
Rockratgirl Posted July 12, 2003 Share Posted July 12, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Criminal: quote:Is there a reason you need a glass container?If not the why take the chance? What chance? If you drop and break a jar/bottle on your kitchen floor, do you move out? http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/ Nope, but I don't live in the countryside with wildlife (some days it feels like I do, but then I put them all back in their cages ). Its all about respect, being sensible, looking at alternatives if available. Sam ~ Love many, trust few, learn to paddle your own Canoe ~ ~ We can't run away for ever ... but theres nothing wrong with getting a good head start ~ Quote Link to comment
+SimonG Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 I voted yes. I don't think a thick glass jar hidden in moss is particularly dangerous. I do have reservations as to whether it's a good idea (waterproofing, public perception), and I might have voted differently if the question was 'Should the rules be changed to disallow glass caches?'. But since the rules do allow them, I think approvers have to approve them. Yes, they have to apply common sense - I'm not suggesting that caches hidden in a pit of anacondas should be approved just because there's no rule against hiding a cache in a pit of anacondas. But glass caches are something which have been around for years, and it's clear that the owners of the site don't have a problem with them, whereas no one's ever hidden a cache in a pit of anacondas. Hmm... that gives me an idea... What's your favourite thing? Quote Link to comment
+Tim & June Posted July 13, 2003 Share Posted July 13, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Teasel:let's not invent ourselves another new UK-only rule (like the UK ban on event caches without physical caches ... It is not often that I wander in here and have a read, so I am sorry to bring this topic to the top again. Teasel, I do hope you did not deliberately ignore my posts HERE where I said I would "ask for definitive answer from those above" and where I posted the response to that query. Also Eric (pretty much the top GC.com Admin) posted his clarification too. quote:Originally posted by Teasel:... and a possible UK ban on knives in caches), As June and I retired from admin, there was a discussion about knives in caches in the US, It seems that the general concensus over there is that knives are not suitable cache content. UK-only rules ? I don't think so. There will always be some differences around the World, for example, as far as I'm aware, if you want to walk down the street carrying a ten-inch Bowie knife in the USA, you can, but try that here ! The UK is the only country which has "Rights of Way" over private land. Scotland has no law of tresspass. In some cases then, we have to be slightly different, but in the cases you mention, we are not. Quite why some admins see fit to approve "cache events" without a caching element, I don't know. One thing is for sure I'm glad I'm out of it because I don't have to care about people bleating on about what I do. Quote Link to comment
+Teasel Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Tim & June:Teasel, I do hope you did not _deliberately_ ignore my posts http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=6616058331&m=22860243 where I said I would "ask for definitive answer from those above" and where I posted the response to that query. Also Eric (pretty much the top GC.com Admin) posted his clarification too. Since the full guidelines, perhaps wisely, are not written down for any country, of course it is wrong for me to have suggested that they are UK only. However, the rules do seem to allow event caches to be organised events specifically intended for the discussion of geocaching by geocachers. Eric's counter-examples were all about events which were either nothing to do with geocaching, or were impromtu, unorganised events. The many examples listed by Wood Smoke suggest that the interpretation of guidelines is more relaxed in the US, and this thread suggests that this is still the case with Slytherin listing many more. Whether this is the UK setting higher standards, or UK only rules is really just a matter of spin. Anyway, this is getting way off-topic! With regard to containers like the one shown on the geocaching.com home page, I'd say they're OK in any country, so long as they're placed in an appropriate location. GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community. Quote Link to comment
adampierson Posted July 14, 2003 Share Posted July 14, 2003 I voted no. Basically because glass can shatter and leave a big hairy dangerous mess. In rare instances, glass under the right circumstances (under the sun at the right angle) can start a fire. It is extrememly rare it can happen. Plastic is IMO a better. Quote Link to comment
Stumper Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Tim & June:Quite why some admins see fit to approve "cache events" without a caching element, I don't know. One thing is for sure I'm glad I'm out of it because I don't have to care about people bleating on about what I do. Looks like the whole world is out of step except you. Stump. Quote Link to comment
Moss Trooper Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 Hi Stumper.. sorry.. Alex.. how was yer trip to Stockton.. and your other trip.. you know.. one where yer found a virtual 3 months ago Moss the Boss... Sorta Quote Link to comment
+NattyBooshka Posted July 15, 2003 Share Posted July 15, 2003 We voted no... Whilst sure all geocachers are responsible an dwould take care to not break such a container, it may be found by muggles who could not be so responsible. We've all seen caches trashed in the cache pages, if glass this could mean broken glass in the area. Also at this time of year Sun + Glass + Dried out flora can cause some spectacular fires. We've already lost many acres of moor land up here in the Peak Distric this year due to fire, and I wouldn't like to think that geocaching could cause this kind of event. We are all lovers of the countryside, and many caches are placed in wonderful locations that would be upsetting to visit all black and charred. There seems to be a feeling that if it isn't covered by the rules, then it's fine. I think that glass containers should not be allowed unless the powers that be could draw up some guidelines to limit the use of such containers to ensure safety of the cachers and the environment. One that's going to rage on as a debate I'm sure... Natty Quote Link to comment
+Slytherin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Moss Trooper:Hi Stumper.. sorry.. Alex.. how was yer trip to Stockton.. and your other trip.. you know.. one where yer found a virtual 3 months ago Wouldn't know. Haven't been to Stockton for the best part of six years as far as I can remember. You been on the gin again?? ------------------------------------------------ Knights of the Green Shield stamp and shout..... Quote Link to comment
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