Not a Troll or Sock-Puppet

July 24, 2003

Here are my reasons for hiding my identity.

I thought I would explain myself following an abusive email, (and yes I do know that you can do that with a black bin liner, but being a gentleman, you first ...)

I have been caching for nearly 18 months, and before I realised there was a major security risk exposing my home to burglary I used to log my finds on site.

I will continue to visit caches. But I won't log on site (not worried about numbers). I value my privacy, what I do and when I do it. That's why I abandoned my old user name and started again.

Visiting www.geocachinguk.com, a lot of detail (about my caching habits) is laid out in a rather splendid manner. If I were a burglar, I would only have to scan some of the more active cachers to identify a target. With a little reading, I could easily identify the families full names, which days the family are regularly all out, which day in the week one of them has a day off and what sort of time they are likely to return home from a caching trip. In short, a nice pattern of their activities is served up on a plate. Statistics are very revealing. All the work done for me, too much information!

Take for example, one family in Hampshire. The full names of the family are easy to put together, A quick look in the phone directory I'm sure would reveal their address, I just checked on the web and was successful. Foolishly, even the name of their house is in their profile.

Just visiting that teams profile will reveal a lot of information about their caching habits. But it would still be a fair amount of work to sort this into a format which would be useful to a house-breaker. Also, I would have to keep searching each cache team individually in order to identify a good target.

When I signed up to www.geocaching.com the privacy policy said my details would be kept private, this is only true to an extent.

Nope ! Too much of a security risk for me. In my work, I have too often seen the heartbreak and distress that housebreaking causes.

July 24, 2003

I guess it's a matter of perspective. We had our car broken into while caching. We don't assume it will be broken into each time we go caching.

I'm sure if any theives out there are willing to put the work into checking stats versus names versus an address book, they'll probably be hard-working enough to get a proper job, than risk all that hard work on possibly going to prison.

There are risks all around us, but when paranoia stops you enjoying yourself, then what are you living for? Just look at some of the paranoia threads from americans - do you carry a gun? what do you do about psychos jumping out from the bushes? I believe it's all a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and there's nothing you can do to stop it if it's going to happen.

Obviously, you can act on funny feelings - if you see a suspicious character, maybe just turn around and go home - but paranoia the whole time? No thanks.

Just my 2p.

Stu

1.4k · July 24, 2003

It strikes me as a huge amount of work to go to find out which houses are empty.

Why not just walk round the local estate looking for houses that look like there is no one in then knock and see if anyone answers (if they do answer as for directions or try to sell them double glazing). Seems a lot easier than driving to Watford to burgle The Hornet. IMHO

Chris

If only life had an undo button....

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

1k · July 24, 2003

What a load of nonsense!

Go ex-directory and get your name removed from the polling register if you think this is a likely scenario.

Seasider

We are not retreating - we are advancing in another Direction!

24.7k · July 24, 2003

So does that mean you are goint to log your finds or are you going to become an evil Lurker?

1.2k · July 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:
Seems a lot easier than driving to Watford to burgle The Hornet. IMHO

WHAT!!!!! This sounds like an open invitation. If I was paranoid I might never leave my house to go caching again. But I think it so unlikely that a burglar would use GC.COM as a surveillance tool that I'll probably keep caching. I just won't announce to everyone when & where I'm going.

When filling in the logs although the date is noted, the time is never mentioned so discovering a pattern to predict when I'll be away is nigh on impossible. Much more likely they would come when I'm playing golf. (Oops, have I said too much?)

There again, each to his own. If Land Ranger is that worried who are we to criticise him (or is it her?) for his/her precautions.

July 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Hornet:
_WHAT!!!!!_ This sounds like an open invitation. If I was paranoid I might never leave my house to go caching again. But I think it so unlikely that a burglar would use GC.COM as a surveillance tool that I'll probably keep caching. I just won't announce to everyone when & where I'm going.

Not worth the trip from the smoke mate.

When I picked me ammo tins up, I noticed that your gaff was full of old tat. You only have to look at the kind of stuff yer hawking on ebay to know that.

Been caching for years mate. Never log 'em. Too risky.

1.4k · July 24, 2003

The more I think about this the more it seems to be a load of old tosh. There is a cacher near me (lets call them Team ZigZag) who have done 20 or so caches. There is nothing on their profile page, GC:UK stats reveal that they do a lot of caching on Wednesdays. A thorough read of their logs reveals that there are at least 23 people in team zigzag - 1 called Lisa. Looking at their first finds I recon they live near Romford.

So I have established that there is a family (posibly) who live in Romford and are out on Wednesday afternoon - that narrows it down.

The only thing that really gives info is your profile - if you don't want to put stuff on it don't.

Wether you log caches or not is up to you BUT you should at least log something in the log book. The only thing people who plant caches get out of the game is the logs of other players.

Chris

If only life had an undo button....

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

July 24, 2003

Besides, the filthy little toerags that burgle houses in our neck of the woods haven't got computers - if they did have, they'd have turned it into a wrap of smack long ago. You're crediting them with too much intelligence.

____________________________________________

Everyone is entitled to my opinion...

July 24, 2003

Oh come on! You can't be serious. Burglars using the Geocaching website to plan their jobs?

You'll be saying next that there were WMD in a certain middle eastern country next

As happy as a piggy in ordure.

July 24, 2003

Maybe I should post my house as a cache?

That way, it will get visited by nice geocachers, who will (a) do some CITO, and ( cache-up a few things!!!!

Paul

Another proud member of the GAGB!

July 24, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz:
Maybe I should post my house as a cache?

That way, it will get visited by nice geocachers, who will (a) do some CITO, and ( cache-up a few things!!!!

Paul

Another proud member of the GAGB!

Sounds like the now archived Fish and Coffee Cache!!!

Richard

July 24, 2003

What does a troll do?

July 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cholo:
What does a troll do?

A troll is someone making a deliberately inflammatory post - just trying to stir things up.

A sock puppet is someone using a secondary identity to hide their real identity.

HTH

DerekReed

"Lost in the woods? Not if you remembered to waypoint the car!!". []

I am a proud member of the Geocaching Association of Great Britain.

July 25, 2003

I'm kinda disappointed when folks find a cache but don't record the find on the website.

Yes, I can see that analysis of the information could reveal patterns of behaviour or whatever, and that's one of the reasons I chose a nickname that wasn't immediately revealing. Same risk goes with sites like LiveJournal. For that matter, being a regular member of a church congregation, a folk club, a football team, or whatever could carry similar risks.

Maybe there should be a log tick-option to say you wanted to remain "anonymous"? Folks would be able to see your log, but not know who was behind it (unless they were the cache owner)....

Folks visiting your user page (and cache list) would not see the logs you'd marked "anonymous" (again, unless they were the cache owner).

July 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Leopard:
Maybe there should be a log tick-option to say you wanted to remain "anonymous"? Folks would be able to see your log, but not know who was behind it (unless they were the cache owner)....

But just think of all the thieves who will set a series of caches, just so they can see who is logging them, and when... and ... OK. I'll shut up.

Stu

July 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Cholo:
What does a troll do?

My feelings exactly Cholo!

Why is it when I read not a troll but...it usually is a post designed to wind us up?

I woke this morning and my boat was not rocking...for one horrid moment I thought I lived in a house!

July 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Merman:
Why is it when I read not a troll but...it usually is a post designed to wind us up?

Just like when someone starts a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..."

Stu

July 25, 2003

LandRanger, by your own admission you are indeed a sock-puppet.

I understand your possible concerns about burglary etc hence the new persona, but surely you don't feel the need to contradict yourself if you're an experienced cacher and forum-user?

"Woof" quoth he. Oh, and "Grrr" also.

Omally

July 25, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Land Ranger:
Here are my reasons for hiding my identity.

I thought I would explain myself following an abusive email, (and yes I do know that you can do that with a black bin liner, but being a gentleman, you first ...)

Huh? My profile on here has always been fairly anonymous, although anyone who has reason to contact me finds out my true identity pretty quickly. (Please don't anyone tell me you thought "Cain Mosni" was my real name?)

FOr that someone chose to abuse you? There has to be more to it than that, surely?

quote:
I have been caching for nearly 18 months, and before I realised there was a major security risk exposing my home to burglary I used to log my finds on site.

I will continue to visit caches. But I won't log on site (not worried about numbers). I value my privacy, what I do and when I do it. That's why I abandoned my old user name and started again.

Visiting http://www.geocachinguk.com, a lot of detail (about my caching habits) is laid out in a rather splendid manner. If I were a burglar, I would only have to scan some of the more active cachers to identify a target. With a little reading, I could easily identify the families full names, which days the family are regularly all out, which day in the week one of them has a day off and what sort of time they are likely to return home from a caching trip. In short, a nice pattern of their activities is served up on a plate. Statistics are very revealing. All the work done for me, _too much information!_

Take for example, one family in Hampshire. The full names of the family are easy to put together, A quick look in the phone directory I'm sure would reveal their address, I just checked on the web and was successful. Foolishly, even the name of their house is in their profile.

Just visiting that teams profile will reveal a lot of information about their caching habits. But it would still be a fair amount of work to sort this into a format which would be useful to a house-breaker. Also, I would have to keep searching each cache team individually in order to identify a good target.

Surely the thing to do is simply not be habitual? Anyone tracing my caching habits would be hard pressed to establish a reliable pattern, for the simple reason that there isn't one.

And is there any greater risk than (say) your average family going out for their Saturday afternoon shop? Or someone single going to work 5 days a week? Negligible by comparison, I would think.

quote:
When I signed up to http://www.geocaching.com the privacy policy said my details would be kept private, this is only true to an extent.

Nope ! Too much of a security risk for me. In my work, I have too often seen the heartbreak and distress that housebreaking causes.

So why suddenly get sensitive about it now, 18 months on? (Just curious, what brought this sudden rush of paranoia on.)

(And remember: just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.)

July 27, 2003

I have had my house burgled before I ever got into caching. Now that I am a cacher and post my stats and logs on the web, I have not been burgled once! So am I to logically deduce that caching actually helps to prevent my house being broken into?

You can argue it both ways. I have a personal distrust of anyone who hides behind an anonymous identity on the net. I don't do it, I never have, and I won't start now.

In other words, I honestly don't believe you when you say these are the only reasons you are hiding. If they really are, then I believe you to be mistaken in the level of your concern. There are far easier ways to gather burgling details about you, than trawling through stats on here. Most burglars either do their work when the occupier is out at work (far more regular than geocaching, and easier to suss out but following you every day) or they work in the time between 4 and 6am when you are at home asleep and in the deepest slumber. In this case, once again, caching has nothing to do with it.

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

July 28, 2003

I'd never thought about the security risk's really.

I'm screwed if anyone decided to stalk me or steal from me. A few items of personal info are all they would need and its they're displayed on my website so its an open book really :-)

My house mate is ugly enough to scare anyone away, even women :-)

Tip of the day : Always be nice to your mother and don't eat yellow snow :-)

July 28, 2003

quote:

Tip of the day : Always be nice to your mother and don't eat yellow snow :-)

The question begs to be asked :- If I eat yellow snow why is that being nasty to my mother?

July 28, 2003

quote:
Why not just walk round the local estate looking for houses that look like there is no one in then knock and see if anyone answers

It is a known fact that criminals who do their "homework" are those who are least likely to get caught. The toe-rags who wander around their local area and do a job with little or no planning are the ones who most often get caught. Break a window, nick your visible and more easily carried goodies and the £30 you had hidden in the cookie jar, while making a real mess of your home.

The successful criminal is the one who plans more carefully. He knows that you are most likely to be out until long after he has gone. He conducts a thorough search of your home and takes the most treasured and valuable possessions, like granddads wartime meadals and your stamp collection. He might even load up his/your car in your garage before just driving away with everything you hold most dear. This type of guy isn't interested in your video which he can flog "down the pub" for a round of drinks or his next block of resin/whatever.

quote:
Go ex-directory and get your name removed from the polling register if you think this is a likely scenario.

AND make sure that your habits are not displayed for all and sundry on the web ? It is a criminal offence to not register on the poling list. Also I have a CD (Telepower) which was given away with a magazine which contains many thousands of ex-directory numbers.

quote:
There again, each to his own. If Land Ranger is that worried who are we to criticise him (or is it her?) for his/her precautions.

Thank-you

quote:
you should at least log something in the log book.

I always log in the log book

quote:
I'm kinda disappointed when folks find a cache but don't record the find on the website.

Me too, If it were only on www.geocaching.com I would log it on site.

quote:
LandRanger, by your own admission you are indeed a sock-puppet

I understood that usually, a troll or sick-puppet makes posts which are inflammatory or contrary. This post was meant to be neither. I stand corrected and apologise for the error.

quote:
So why suddenly get sensitive about it now, 18 months on

Not 18 months on, I stopped using my old ID at least 12 months ago. I started this thread to counter the accusations of me being a troll by expressing my reasons for witholding my ID.

My point, which seems to have been missed by most is that, just logging on the www.geocaching.com site would make it very difficult for a villain to find a suitable target. If my statistics were only displayed on that site, in their current format, I would gladly log visits on site again. The problem is with the way they are disseminated and displayed in extreme detail elsewhere, even graphs. In short, www.geocaching.com is not the problem.

July 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Land Ranger:
The successful criminal is the one who plans more carefully. He knows that you are most likely to be out until long after he has gone. He conducts a thorough search of your home and takes the most treasured and valuable possessions, like granddads wartime meadals and your stamp collection. He might even load up his/your car in your garage before just driving away with everything you hold most dear.

Out of interest - what do you do when you go to work? Is there always someone at your house while you're there?

Another something to think about - the "opportunistic" thief is not always as cack-handed as you describe. I can't remember the name of the show, but it was on BBC reently, and had a couple of ex-professional theives who broke into a couple of random houses (with the owners consent) to demonstrate how easy it was.

These people picked a house by ascertaining if it was empty, and were in and out in a matter of minutes. In all cases, they stole a lot more than just "nick your visible and more easily carried goodies and the £30 you had hidden in the cookie jar" - they took several thousand pounds worth of equipment, and highlighted that although it would be sold on on the cheap, they wouldn't care.

They took the valuable possessions - the ones with monetary value - not emotional. No thief would steal the latter. Why would they want it if it's of no value to them?

They stole jewellery, garden equipment, telephones, tv's, dvds, savings, bank details, credit cards, keys, etc. etc.

One time, they took the car, too - and loaded it with everything of value within the house. They weren't sure the owners wouldn't be back at 4:45 precisely - they were in and out within minutes, so they didn't need to worry.

Like you say. They weren't organised. They were careful, sure. They were professional, they knew not to leave fingerprints, or foot prints, and to enter and leave where they couldn't be seen by neighbours.

But ignoring all that - they may be caught.

But after the event, what do you care if they get caught? It's too late - you've had your goods stolen, and probably sold it on.

Theft is ugly, nasty, and horrid, but there's no reason to be paranoid about it. Someone is just as likely to pick on you because your house is empty than to have watched you for weeks to ascertain your habits.

But if you're so worried about theft, I suggest that you consider upgrading your home security.

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

1.4k · July 29, 2003

Right,

I am obviously being completly dim here. How exactly does our profile help a thief ?

Chris

If only life had an undo button....

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

1.4k · July 29, 2003

Well, I reckon it's difficult to hide identity's anyway this day and age, from anyone who 'really' want's to know it.

If you are going to get robbed it's going to happen whatever.

People are creatures of habit on the whole, thiefs must love that.

Shopping, school runs, sports etc are all done at the same times week in week out. So me, I am just going to get on with my life and not worry about it.

Bob....

http://www.bobh.co.uk

July 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:
I am obviously being completly dim here. How exactly does our profile help a thief ?

Before I begin - bear in mind that I've altered some details, as I don't want to give the game away to anyone who "has a bright idea" (read: dumb silly notion that will wind you up with a spell in prison or broken limbs if we ever catch you), but the reasoning behind it is sound. The information I present is inaccurate, and a lot harder to come by than my post might suggest, as I think it would be unethical to spell out precisely how to find someones private details on the internet. If anything sounds false, it is, but hopefully Chris and Maria will get the gist about where I am getting the info from.

I suppose you could surmise that you are commonly out on Tuesdays, especially in August, which may leave you with an empty house in Loughton at that time.

However, it fails to take into consideration a number of variables:

1. Is anyone left at home?

2. Just where the heck is your house anyway?

3. What time you leave, and what time you come back

4. Whether you do this every Tuesday, every other Tuesday, or once a month.

For the sake of argument, we'll presume you live alone, and no one tends your house while you are caching. Your neighbours haven't got a clear view of your house from their windows, and are therefore unlikely to notice anyone breaking in.

But we are still left with the problem of finding your house. We might be able to do this if your GCUK page gave any indications about your surname - which it doesn't.

Through the magic of the Internet, I followed several links and eventually found that out.

I pulled your rough location off these forums. This assumes that the thief will know to check these forums for your location, but lets assume that they do. A quick BT.com enquiry pops up two Initials that match your name and location (presuming that the phone is under Chris, not Maria).

This also assumes that you are not ex-directory, but as Land Ranger says, some directories ignore that anyway. The information also handily provides your address.

I could check out both houses, preferrably on Tuesdays, to see whether or not you leave to go caching, and if you do, pay you a "little visit". Or, I could just phone you up and if you answer, say "I've got the wrong number" - if you don't, I'll then drop round.

To be completely frank, that was probably flawed - I've made a lot of leaps of faith there, and no doubt one or two mistakes. But with respect to Land Ranger, that sort of investigation is entirely feasible. And I'd never even tried that before.

But it sure seems like a lot of work - especially when (as a burglar) I could simply watch your road until someone (you?) goes out with all their family, preferrably with a holiday packed car, and nip in then.

Ultimately, it's a really roundabout way of doing things, and easily cured by either a) Having an "Opt-Out" policy on GCUK (which is almost unworkable, considering that most UK cachers probably don't know they have a profile there), or Not linking your personal site to your profile on GC.com

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

[This message was edited by Kouros on July 29, 2003 at 10:21 AM.]

1k · July 29, 2003

Originally posted by The Land Ranger:

Go ex-directory and get your name removed from the polling register if you think this is a likely scenario.

AND make sure that your habits are not displayed for all and sundry on the web ? It is a criminal offence to not register on the poling list. Also I have a CD (Telepower) which was given away with a magazine which contains many thousands of ex-directory numbers.

Shows how much this guy knows about crime and the criminal mind - I said 'get your name removed from the polling register' not 'don't register'.

There are two registers - the full register (which is not available for public inspection) and the abridged register (which is). The law changed to reflect the concerns of the famous who were being stalked etc. All you have to do is tick a box and you are anonymous to all but the government & credit companies.

As for the CD - nonsense!

Seasider

We are not retreating - we are advancing in another Direction!

5.9k · July 29, 2003

quote:
Shows how much this guy knows about crime and the criminal mind - I said 'get your name removed from the polling register' not 'don't register'.

Beware of the Criminal mind.

http://fp1.centurytel.net/Criminal_Page/

1k · July 29, 2003

Just checked the polling register and there are 2 people with very similiar names and one with exactly my name in Lytham (I of course ticked the anonymity box and do not appear).

I'm happy now - they will get burgled instead of me!

Seasider

We are not retreating - we are advancing in another Direction!

1.4k · July 29, 2003

Hi Kouros,

Thanks loads for doing all the hard work and pointing that out. As I suspected - someone can now find out my name & where I live and that I might be out on Tuesdays.

That's really worrying! Fancy people knowing I might be out at sometime on a Tuesday...hang on a sec lets think about this - almost everyone I know leaves there house at some point on a tuesday. Well that is helpful info then

I think I will spend more time worrying whether I locked the front door or not.

P.S. If you are a thief reading this - the garden is full of man traps, we don't have any money, we are on constant CCTV survelance and Boysie can savage a man to the bone in less than 10 seconds

Chris

If only life had an undo button....

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

July 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:
That's really worrying! Fancy people knowing I might be out at sometime on a Tuesday...hang on a sec lets think about this - almost everyone I know leaves there house at some point on a tuesday. Well that is helpful info then

Heh. Exactly.

If it broke it down to "Chris leaves the house at 10:43 to get the car out the garage, and Maria follows a few moments later. They are out caching for six hours (not including lunch), and return home at 18:00 to find their house ransacked on a weekly basis" I could see there being a problem.

Personally, I prefer to spend more time worrying if I actually left that Tamagotchi in the cache or not, as I claimed I did in the log...

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

July 29, 2003

quote:
Personally, I prefer to spend more time worrying if I actually left that Tamagotchi in the cache or not, as I claimed I did in the log...

Glad I'm not the only one

July 29, 2003

Grr

[This message was edited by Sonya :-) on July 29, 2003 at 01:42 PM.]

July 29, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by The Land Ranger:
Take for example, one family in Hampshire. The full names of the family are easy to put together, A quick look in the phone directory I'm sure would reveal their address, I just checked on the web and was successful. Foolishly, even the name of their house is in their profile.

Just visiting that teams profile will reveal a lot of information about their caching habits.

Tempting as it is to dismiss this out of hand as a troll, I'd like to ask what extra value a handy summary of the GC.com logs would actually be to a thief?

From various sources around the internet, you have deduced the cachers' full names, their address including house name and their phone number. You also know how many caches, on average, they find each week.

From G:UK, you have deduced that they like to go geocaching in Hampshire, especially at the weekend. Ummm, well, that wasn't guessable at all was it?! Do they go out first thing in the morning, for a stroll after lunch, or are they night cachers? You can't tell. I'm still unclear as to what added value the thief gets from the G:UK graphs.

If you genuinely feel it is dangerous to enter the date you found a cache, why not instead enter the date you logged it? That way you're sure to be at home when the thieves strike!

GeocacheUK - resources for the UK Geocaching community.

July 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:
and Boysie can savage a man to the bone in less than 10 seconds

Glad to see Boysie's got his appetite back

=====

There's no such thing as a free lunchbox!

July 30, 2003

Has no one else worked it out yet?

Groundspeak is obviously an evil organisation which set up this website solely to gather data on when best to conduct their nefarious activities. Jeremy 'Moriarty' Irish sits in his office with a giant map of the world on the wall, which has little LEDs all over it that light up when the cache stats predict that someone will be out. He then picks up the phone to his henchman Elias the Knife, who sends one of their minions over to gut the place.

If you're a charter member, they promise to leave the telly.

What's your favourite thing?

July 30, 2003

quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:
If you're a charter member, they promise to leave the telly.

But no computer to log the cache you were out hunting while they looted the house?

But that's evil!!

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

Not a Troll or Sock-Puppet

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