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Ordnance Survey grid references anyone?


Teasel

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Is it just me, or does anyone else find it awkward dealing with HDDD MM.MM format locations? In the UK, all good walking maps are based on the OS National Grid, so it seems odd that anyone would choose HDDD MM.MM...

 

If others agree, I suggest we ask for the option to convert any HDDD MM.MM / WGS84 coordinates to National Grid / OSGB36. I'm happy to do the coding for this, and I could probably knock up a 'proof of concept' web page, if anyone's interested?

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quote:
Originally posted by Teasel:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it awkward dealing with HDDD MM.MM format locations? In the UK, all good walking maps are based on the OS National Grid, so it seems odd that anyone would choose HDDD MM.MM...

 

If others agree, I suggest we ask for the option to convert any HDDD MM.MM / WGS84 coordinates to National Grid / OSGB36. I'm happy to do the coding for this, and I could probably knock up a 'proof of concept' web page, if anyone's interested?


 

I don't know about all the GPS units out there, but on my Garmin 3+ you can suck the waypoints in in lat/long-WGS84 and it is a simple thing to get the GPS to convert internally to UK grid-OSGB36. (If you need to).

 

Don't forget this is a US-centric hobby/sport/pastime so any request from the outside world will be filed appropriately (as in trig point hunting). icon_wink.gif (Plus there are only so many resources to go round - your offer to do the work might help!)

 

In the meantime, I think there are several UK caching web sites that you could house your convertor on.

 

Ideally yes, the option should be there, as is NAD27 or UTM options. I've noticed in other threads when people question the coordinate format there isn't much sympathy - and given the global reach of geocaching, maybe less is better. People seem to get confused enough downloading coords - the fewer options the better! icon_biggrin.gif

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quote:
Originally posted by Teasel:

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it awkward dealing with HDDD MM.MM format locations? In the UK, all good walking maps are based on the OS National Grid, so it seems odd that anyone would choose HDDD MM.MM...

 

If others agree, I suggest we ask for the option to convert any HDDD MM.MM / WGS84 coordinates to National Grid / OSGB36. I'm happy to do the coding for this, and I could probably knock up a 'proof of concept' web page, if anyone's interested?


 

I don't know about all the GPS units out there, but on my Garmin 3+ you can suck the waypoints in in lat/long-WGS84 and it is a simple thing to get the GPS to convert internally to UK grid-OSGB36. (If you need to).

 

Don't forget this is a US-centric hobby/sport/pastime so any request from the outside world will be filed appropriately (as in trig point hunting). icon_wink.gif (Plus there are only so many resources to go round - your offer to do the work might help!)

 

In the meantime, I think there are several UK caching web sites that you could house your convertor on.

 

Ideally yes, the option should be there, as is NAD27 or UTM options. I've noticed in other threads when people question the coordinate format there isn't much sympathy - and given the global reach of geocaching, maybe less is better. People seem to get confused enough downloading coords - the fewer options the better! icon_biggrin.gif

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If you want cache listings with OS grid references you can use the summary pages generated at: http://www.geocacheuk.com/webscrape/summary.html

 

Apart from conversion on your GPS you can convert using various software of which I have listed some here: http://www.sheps.clara.net/UKTools.html

 

and (you know the plug is comming icon_wink.gif) you could use my free Spreadsheet which you can download from here:

http://www.sheps.clara.net/SSVersions.html

 

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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If you want cache listings with OS grid references you can use the summary pages generated at: http://www.geocacheuk.com/webscrape/summary.html

 

Apart from conversion on your GPS you can convert using various software of which I have listed some here: http://www.sheps.clara.net/UKTools.html

 

and (you know the plug is comming icon_wink.gif) you could use my free Spreadsheet which you can download from here:

http://www.sheps.clara.net/SSVersions.html

 

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

If you want cache listings with OS grid references you can use the summary pages generated at: http://www.geocacheuk.com/webscrape/summary.html

 

Apart from conversion on your GPS you can convert using various software of which I have listed some here: http://www.sheps.clara.net/UKTools.html

 

and (you know the plug is comming icon_wink.gif) you could use my free Spreadsheet which you can download from here:

http://www.sheps.clara.net/SSVersions.html

 

Chris


 

Also if you are using an Etrex Vista you can have the best of both worlds by setting the Trip Computer page to show both.. I don't know if any other of the Garmin range allow this.

 

You may have to upgrade the firmwear of your GPS to allow this though.

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

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quote:
Originally posted by Chris n Maria:

If you want cache listings with OS grid references you can use the summary pages generated at: http://www.geocacheuk.com/webscrape/summary.html

 

Apart from conversion on your GPS you can convert using various software of which I have listed some here: http://www.sheps.clara.net/UKTools.html

 

and (you know the plug is comming icon_wink.gif) you could use my free Spreadsheet which you can download from here:

http://www.sheps.clara.net/SSVersions.html

 

Chris


 

Also if you are using an Etrex Vista you can have the best of both worlds by setting the Trip Computer page to show both.. I don't know if any other of the Garmin range allow this.

 

You may have to upgrade the firmwear of your GPS to allow this though.

 

Moss de Boss... Sorta

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quote:

If others agree, I suggest we ask for the option to convert any HDDD MM.MM / WGS84 coordinates to National Grid / OSGB36. I'm happy to do the coding for this, and I could probably knock up a 'proof of concept' web page, if anyone's interested?


As has been stated here before, most GPS units have the ability to convert from one format to the other. Certainly, with Garmins all downloads are always in WGS 84 format. This means you could keep your GPS receiver permanently in OS mode and still download the coordinates with EasyGPS and not get confused.

 

If you don't have a data cable, I definitely recommend you get one - it'll make life soooo much easier for you.

 

The one thing that does irritate me about geocaching.com is that all coordinates are in dd mm.mmm format except when you want to search for caches close to a particular position when you have to put the coordinates in in dd.ddddd format. That is annoying.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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I'm happy switching my GPS between formats/datums, but that only works for waypoints which have already been downloaded or manually keyed in (or prepared in advance using eg a spreadsheet).

 

Yesterday we were driving to GC5F80. The cache description recommended "parking at N53*05.274 W001*49.752 and walking down to the path". A couple of weeks ago, we foolishly ignored the recommendation in GC675F to "follow the easier path via N 53 17.820 / W 002 12.322".

 

In both cases I considered it just too much faff to change the GPS to HDDD MM.MM / WGS84, key in the waypoint manually, then change back to National Grid / OSGB36 before checking the map. And I paid the price :-)

 

What I had in mind was something which automatically inserted OSGB references into descriptions wherever it found HDDD MM.MM coordinates. If I get some spare time, I'll code up something to show what I'm on about.

 

Many thanks for the links - they may well come in useful!

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Before you do any codeing I strongly recommend that you download Chris's spreadsheet from

 

http://www.sheps.clara.net/SSVersions.html

 

Chris's spreadsheet not only converts into multiple formats, it also contains autolinks to various Uk mapping sites includeing Streetmap and the OS. I usually use the streetmap link, as it produces an extract of Landranger map with the location marked.

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OK, I've hacked some basic code together, which I'm throwing to the wolves to see if anyone else comes up with good ideas such as links to mapping sites.

 

I've put the test page on geo.teasel.net. So eg try http://geo.teasel.net/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=24448 ...or just... http://geo.teasel.net

 

Any HDDD MM.MM coordinates should be converted to OSGB, with a link to streetmap.co.uk.

 

Like I said, it's just a mock up. Some searches don't work (eg 'by waypoint'), and cookies aren't implemented so you can't log on. My network connection is also a little tempramental... But hopefully there's enough to make it useful to people who like OS maps. Comments (+ve or -ve) most welcome...

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It looks like it has some possibilities though I'm not sure how often it would get used.

 

1. The links to street map are great.

2. The OS references are handy but the problem with the standard Geocaching page format is that it is no good for printing or downloading to palm - would it be possible to provide it in summary format which strips out the extraneous formatting?

3. (Pushing his luck icon_biggrin.gif) Now you have developed the technology to find references on a page, what would be really handy, is if you could generate a waypoint file (EasyGPS format is XML) which contains all the points mentioned in one file. This would make the pages supremely useful.

 

Email me if you want more info on what I am talking about.

 

Anyway it seems to work very well. A word of warning though - be carefull how much traffic your site generates with Geocaching.com people have been blocked before when they generated huge amounts of traffic.

 

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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It looks like it has some possibilities though I'm not sure how often it would get used.

 

1. The links to street map are great.

2. The OS references are handy but the problem with the standard Geocaching page format is that it is no good for printing or downloading to palm - would it be possible to provide it in summary format which strips out the extraneous formatting?

3. (Pushing his luck icon_biggrin.gif) Now you have developed the technology to find references on a page, what would be really handy, is if you could generate a waypoint file (EasyGPS format is XML) which contains all the points mentioned in one file. This would make the pages supremely useful.

 

Email me if you want more info on what I am talking about.

 

Anyway it seems to work very well. A word of warning though - be carefull how much traffic your site generates with Geocaching.com people have been blocked before when they generated huge amounts of traffic.

 

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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As Chris says, the question is how many people are interested. Too few and what's the point; too many and I need to get the OK from geocaching.com first. As you'll have noticed, my approach is somewhat more, ummm, parasitic than geocacheuk.com icon_wink.gif I'll see how many others reply to this thread and decide what to do...

 

I'm sure a palm friendly version could be arranged, if someone can define 'extraneous formatting'. Can I assume geocacheuk.com's webscraper is exactly what is required? Surely, though, this is a global issue which geocaching.com should be sorting out?

 

Looking at the code in Chris' excellent spreadsheet, an EasyGPS export option should be fairly easy to provide. (Though if someone could send me a formal file format defininition, that'd be great!) But again, since the export would best be against a WGS84 datum, this is something geocaching.com should be addressing?

 

The sheer niceness of having maps with a km square grid makes it highly unlikely that OS will ever convert to walking maps with lat-long grids.

 

Personally I think that geocaching waypoints should only ever be displayed in whatever coordinate system is most used on walking maps in the relevant country. Sure, cachers may have to reset their GPS whenever they move country, but that's a small price to pay for not confusing people with datums they don't understand and coordinates they can't find on a map!

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As Chris says, the question is how many people are interested. Too few and what's the point; too many and I need to get the OK from geocaching.com first. As you'll have noticed, my approach is somewhat more, ummm, parasitic than geocacheuk.com icon_wink.gif I'll see how many others reply to this thread and decide what to do...

 

I'm sure a palm friendly version could be arranged, if someone can define 'extraneous formatting'. Can I assume geocacheuk.com's webscraper is exactly what is required? Surely, though, this is a global issue which geocaching.com should be sorting out?

 

Looking at the code in Chris' excellent spreadsheet, an EasyGPS export option should be fairly easy to provide. (Though if someone could send me a formal file format defininition, that'd be great!) But again, since the export would best be against a WGS84 datum, this is something geocaching.com should be addressing?

 

The sheer niceness of having maps with a km square grid makes it highly unlikely that OS will ever convert to walking maps with lat-long grids.

 

Personally I think that geocaching waypoints should only ever be displayed in whatever coordinate system is most used on walking maps in the relevant country. Sure, cachers may have to reset their GPS whenever they move country, but that's a small price to pay for not confusing people with datums they don't understand and coordinates they can't find on a map!

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quote:
Originally posted by Teasel:

I'm sure a palm friendly version could be arranged, if someone can define 'extraneous formatting'. Can I assume geocacheuk.com's webscraper is exactly what is required?


Perhaps it may make more sense to work with Mark and JeremyP to add this to the GeocacheUK functionality - rather than reinvent the wheel. The Palmable version from Geocaching.com is quite clunky and doesn't provide OS refs which Geocachuk does.

 

quote:

Surely, though, this is a global issue which geocaching.com should be sorting out?


Posibly, but Jeremy and co are completly submerged trying to get the site to perform with the increasing volumes and then meet of enhancment requests. The work in providing this functionality world wide would be huge and at the moment the usee jeeep.com to provide the conversions for most of the world. To do the job for the US alone is quite complex as the conversion from WGS84 to NAD27 (american map datum) is not a straightforward formulaic conversion. Any functionality improvements would be aimed at the US well before us.

 

quote:

...an EasyGPS export option should be fairly easy to provide. (Though if someone could send me a formal file format defininition, that'd be great!)


The format is a preliminary version of GPX which you can find out loads more here (you need to be logged in to get to this page). Current versions of EasyGPS do not support the full format, only the elements available in the downloads.

 

quote:

But again, since the export would best be against a WGS84 datum, this is something geocaching.com should be addressing?


Maybe, but it's on their jobs to do list and we have no indication of expected delivery times (if ever).

 

Chris

"We're not lost - we just don't know where we are"

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

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Yep, OK the display of locations in OSGB format would be great. Yep, it's great to hack a bit of code and the results will look impressive.

 

Surely the simplest (non technical) answer is for folk to include the OSGB reference in the descriptive text. We could handle our OS maps happily, the GPS will read it in almost any format you like to mention and our American cousins could use the clumsy hhddmmss (or whatever) system if they really want to.

 

The nearer your destination, the more you keep slip sliding away.

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quote:

 

Surely the simplest (non technical) answer is for folk to include the OSGB reference in the descriptive text.


 

I did think about pointing that out when the topic first came up, but thought better of it icon_smile.gif .

 

wrt long and clumsy, they could improve thing a lot by using dd.ddddd format instead of dd mm.mmm format. Grid refs have other advantages too - it is much easier to calculate the distance between two grid refs in the same 100km square than it is with lat/longs

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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quote:

 

Surely the simplest (non technical) answer is for folk to include the OSGB reference in the descriptive text.


 

I did think about pointing that out when the topic first came up, but thought better of it icon_smile.gif .

 

wrt long and clumsy, they could improve thing a lot by using dd.ddddd format instead of dd mm.mmm format. Grid refs have other advantages too - it is much easier to calculate the distance between two grid refs in the same 100km square than it is with lat/longs

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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I must admit when I was reading through this my first reaction was no way as this is a global system and recreation as has already been pointed out. I think the pages might get a bit cluttered if every other country wanted to have their own coordinate system displayed. Unless, and I assume this is what you meant, that the local coordinates are displayed for each country's pages only.

The further I read and after seeing the streetmap link I changed my mind and thought this looks like a great idea and makes finding the cache a lot easier... and that's the problem. One of the things I find challanging is finding the best route to the cache before we start to hunt on foot. I suppose I dont have to use the extra capability.

I am still of two minds to it but I realy like the idea of the Global family we belong to.

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