Wow you guys are expensive...

[Jeremy]

Here's the Ordnance Survey link to the postal code data. Apparently the UK charges a premium for this data, much to the detriment of small guys like me. I'd need at least another 100 annual subscribers from the UK to warrant purchasing that database.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[Jeremy]

I meant to post this in the maps forum, but now that I think about it, it should have its own topic. I need to figure out how to come up with current postal code data for lookups without paying such a price tag (and $3,000 for the data is just for one user!)

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[+Chris n Maria]

Hi Jeremy,

 

A bit of surfing brought up the following options:

http://www.geoplan.com/Products/digital%20data/Category.asp?Cat=500&Page=505

http://www.graticule.com/products/PostcodeData.html

http://www.cgi-interactive.co.uk/uk_postcodes.html[/url]

 

Hopefully one of them should do the job. Most return UK National Grid Coordinates but Teasel or Myself can supply routines to convert to WGS84.

 

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

[+Rocky Balboa]

Slightly off topic I know but can i just say in reply to jeremys post that i would have become a subscriber to the site months ago if there was an easier way to pay. My switch card is not accepted and i don't have a cheque book. I am also not interested in sending money through the post. ANy way we could enable switch for the uk users?

 

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

[iryshe]

What is a switch card?

 

I went ahead and ordered one of the cheaper databases. When I receive the database and necessary conversion code I'll set it up immediately. Thanks for the links!

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[+SimonG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

What is a switch card?

---

Switch is 'the UK's leading debit card scheme.' So says www.switch.co.uk.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jcmatwf js g wjl, g pjjz ta dgo'a pfam shtfow. Toatwf js g wjl, tm'a mjj wghz mj hfgw. - Lhjcrxj Dghu

[Jeremy]

Ok, I actually purchased postcodes from this guy. Here's his response.

 

quote:

---

Jeremy,

 

I have refunded your credit card, as I don't

feel the system will be suitable for your needs.

 

Thanks

Paul Bradley

 

|cgi Interactive Software

|W: http://www.cgi-interactive.co.uk

 

Huh? I asked him why, but he has yet to respond. Any other suggestions?

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[el10t]

That's weird. I wonder how he could make that judgement.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

[+Kouros]

How very peculiar - perhaps if you emailed him, he might be kind enough to explain why... he might well have a valid point, and be able to suggest a more suitable system.

 

------

An it harm none, do what ye will

[+dylanhayes]

Licensing conditions prehaps? The data may well have some limitation placed on how it can be used by the company who supply the data he is reselling. As postcode data is ultimatly supplied by the Royal Mail (insert whatever name they are called this week) who manage the business of maintaining the master set of postcode data which is then resold by various 3rd parties there may be some restriction on the sort of application that the data can be put to, although the website fails to mention any such limitations.

The quoted price is pretty cheap for this sort of data as I have looked at the prices for this data for a previous project.

 

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

[Jeremy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by el10t:

That's weird. I wonder how he could make that judgement.

---

 

I had the same thought. I asked him why but he has yet to give me a response. I found another supplier who gave me the 1 user license quote. I haven't received the "Internet" quote yet.

 

What's up with the cost of postcodes in the UK? Here in the US you can purchase a pretty good version for under $50.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

[MCL]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

What's up with the cost of postcodes in the UK? Here in the US you can purchase a pretty good version for under $50.

---

 

Probably something to do with the fact that your postal service is not about to go bankrupt? Our one has just borrowed £3bn and unless they get a penny rise in stamp prices through, they ain't going to be able to repay it...

 

They want money. Lots of it. And they want it now.

 

No trees were harmed during the production of this posting, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced....

[+dylanhayes]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

What's up with the cost of postcodes in the UK? Here in the US you can purchase a pretty good version for under $50.

---

 

Generally the government and quasi government agencies charge 'market rates' for data such postcodes and mapping where as in the US public funded agencies tend to charge on a 'cost' basis, the argument being you have already paid for the data in taxes.

Compare the cost of buying USGS topomaps vs. UK Ordinance Survey OSGB paper or electronic mapping.

 

Anybody selling data derived from these datasets has to pass on the higher cost of the source data.

The disadvantage of the UK model is that the data is prohibitively expensive for many users, but the advantage is the data is of very high quality, just compare 50,000 scale mapping from streetmap.co.uk with other similar scaled data to see what I mean. IMHO OSGB topographic mapping sets the standard which other maps are compared against, although they do have the advantage of having a much smaller area to do mapping on and several hundred years to get it right. Having been quite confused by outdated and just plain wrong mapping in other parts of the world, I can speak with the benefit of experience on that. Of course now we have GPS nobody ever gets lost

 

Although the Royal Mail is desparate for the money (although I believe the US Mail isn't exactly flush with cash, they have not realised what a goldmine postal codes are), they have always charged a lot for postcode data. Presumably other people are willing to pay for it, as the ability to data mine for marketing data is useful enough to justify the high cost.

 

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

[iryshe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy Irish:

quote:

---

Originally posted by el10t:

That's weird. I wonder how he could make that judgement.

---

 

I had the same thought.

---

 

The owner of cgi-interactive no longer provides the service, but hasn't updated his web site yet. It was cost prohibitive to offer the database. He was a bit peeved I posted about it. I'm sure he got some email from you folks as well.

 

The other vendor has given me a price that is over $1k US currency. I still need to do the conversion but we'll probably purchase it.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[iryshe]

Found this online...

quote:

---

In fiscal year 1995, the Postal Service had the largest increase in operating profits of any company in the world and earned $1.8 billion. By 1998, some were complaining that the Postal Service was making too much money. In 2001, the USPS is predicting a $3 billion loss that may be the largest negative change in the bottom line of any company in the world.

---

 

Financial statements for 2001 was a loss of $1.7 billion.

 

You can ignore my grumblings. I get used to data being considered public-owned and therefore subsidized by the taxpayers. I'll just know my money is going to the Queen, and I guess that's pretty cool.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[+The Wombles]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

I'll just know my money is going to the Queen, and I guess that's pretty cool.

---

 

She certainly needs it. She's going through Butlers pretty fast these days.......

 

Dave

[+Chris n Maria]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

I'll just know my money is going to the Queen, and I guess that's pretty cool.

---

Trust me - the Coolness wears off pretty quickly

 

Chris

Bear rescues a speciality!

London & UK Geocaching Resources: http://www.sheps.clara.net

[+washboy]

...but, especially since it is so costly to implement, do we urgently need a facility for postcode searches?

 

I mean, I have a GPSr so I know the co-ords of my own house. I can use lat/lon to search for caches nearest to my home. As for caches nearest to a place of uncertain location, I don't imagine I'll say, "Right! I'm going to be in Malvern tomorrow. I wonder if there are any nearby caches. Now, what's the postcode for Malvern?". I'd use Streetmap's (or whatever) gazeteer to establish the lat/long and then plug them into GC.

 

I'm sorry if I seem to be looking a gift horse in the mouth and I suspect I must be blind to the significance of postcodes here. So, can anyone enlighten me please?

 

=====

There's no such thing as a free lunchbox!

[+welch]

quote:

---

Originally posted by washboy:

...but, especially since it is so costly to implement, do we urgently need a facility for postcode searches?

---

Im not from UK so i changed the quesiton to "why do i need a zipcode search?"

 

Besides the fact that i can type in my zip code faster than my coords. and dont know my exact location off the top of my head

I think a lot of new users or lurkers that come by this site have little or no idea what their coords. are, but they may know their own zip/post code. If they can punch it in real quick and find the nearby caches, maybe they'll seek it, But if they have to go research where they are. They could lose interest.

That makes sense to me, does it hold water?

 

[+Slytherin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by washboy:

...but, especially since it is so costly to implement, do we urgently need a facility for postcode searches?

---

Quite agree. I don't really see much use for a postcode search. I'd MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather see the return of the geocacheuk.com stats.

 

Now they WERE useful.

 

Alex.

[+naffita]

quote:

---

washboy said:

since it is so costly to implement, do we urgently need a facility for postcode searches?

---

I cant see a need for it either, as you say, I know my home coords and I can easily find others. If I have to spend a bit of time finding out what the coords are, it is no longer than having to search for post codes. A thousand quid could well be spent elsewhere in my opinion.

 

naffita

[crr003]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slytherin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by washboy:

...but, especially since it is so costly to implement, do we urgently need a facility for postcode searches?

---

Quite agree. I don't really see much use for a postcode search. I'd MUCH, MUCH, MUCH rather see the return of the geocacheuk.com stats.

 

Now they WERE useful.

 

Alex.

---

 

Especially as my Post Code doesn't even get recognised

 

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

[+Huga]

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

Especially as my Post Code doesn't even get recognised

---

 

But will be recognised with the new postcode set...which is rather the point of buying it.

 

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

[el10t]

It looks like peoples opinions are split on this issue.

 

Now that we know a bit more about the pricing etc of incorporating the UK postcodes, perhaps we should have an opinion poll to better inform Jeremy's decision of what to do about this data.

 

I've created a poll. The booths are open!

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

[+dylanhayes]

I found a gazetter of world place names supplied by the US DOD (Jeremys' tax dollars at work!) which covers the every country in the world. As far as I know the information is public and can be used on a commercial websites. The data is pretty comprehensive, 32,000 placenames for the UK alone, and you can't beat the price.

 

Most poeple know the postal code of where they live, but don't for any arbitary place they plan on visiting, so arguably the placename system is more useful. The only disadvantage might be that it's less accurate as a placenames are not as exact as postal code (e.g London is a pretty approximate location), and you would need to add some additional layers to narrow down a search as there are so many places with identical names but different locations.

 

Just a suggestion anyway.

 

*******************************************************

Don't mention the mushrooms

*******************************************************

[el10t]

quote:

---

Originally posted by naffita:

A thousand quid could well be spent elsewhere in my opinion.

---

Just to point out its a thousand dollars not quid so is a bit cheaper.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

[crr003]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Huga:

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

Especially as my Post Code doesn't even get recognised

---

 

But will be recognised with the new postcode set...which is rather the point of buying it.

 

--

**Mother is the name of God on the lips of all children**

---

 

Don't rush out and get in just for me - I won't use it anyway , I know the coords where I live.

 

But $1000 is not much(for geocaching.com), so I'm not going to get upset if it gets implemented.

 

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

[iryshe]

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

But $1000 is not much(for geocaching.com), so I'm not going to get upset if it gets implemented.

---

 

You have a rather naive idea of how much it does hit us, but the point is moot anyway. We purchased the data yesterday and will implement it shortly.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location™

[+kennamatic]

Until Jeremys system is up and running the following is a link I no doubt got from an earlier forum.

 

http://www.whereonearth.com/demos/geocode/geocode.htm

 

Just type in a postcode and change the country code to UK and it returns the lat/longs (in decimal format). I've been using it for ages when I've had to visit places I don't know and it's always been very accurate, to the point that I haven't bought a map of an unknown town since I started. Only once have I ended up going astray and that was because I went in a straight line to my destination, (up a dirt track between two farms),instead of sticking to a fairly main road.

 

And my thanks to the person who originaly linked it here.

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

[+kennamatic]

....and now I read the other thread on this topic and discover it is already up and running.

 

Finding your caches - Losing my marbles.

[crr003]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jeremy (Admin):

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

But $1000 is not much(for geocaching.com), so I'm not going to get upset if it gets implemented.

---

 

You have a rather naive idea of how much it does hit us, but the point is moot anyway. We purchased the data yesterday and will implement it shortly.

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location

---

 

If money's so tight, why go and buy something the majority of the voters on the poll concerning this topic voted against?

 

(confused and naive).

 

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

[+Tim & June]

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

 

If money's so tight, why go and buy something the majority of the voters on the poll concerning this topic voted against?

 

(confused and naive).

 

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

---

 

Because Jeremy bought the licence before the poll was started.

 

But Hey! I guess most will find a use for it.

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong !

[el10t]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim & June:

Because Jeremy bought the licence before the poll was started.

 

But Hey! I guess most will find a use for it.

---

 

I agree - I am sure it will prove useful.

There was a delay in posting the poll after the idea was first raised because up until then nobody had mentioned the issue of not wanting the data.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

[crr003]

My underlying point is that if funds are limited, should there not be some kind of approval from the end users for new features that will cost hard cash to purchase?

 

Seems if Jeremy had waited a few days maybe he could have saved a grand towards something else?

 

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

[+The Wombles]

quote:

---

Originally posted by crr003:

... should there not be some kind of approval from the end users for new features that will cost hard cash to purchase?

---

 

No.

 

It's hard enough getting concensus agreement for other issues around here without having an approval process for purchases with the inevitable options. I get enough frustration from this sort of process at work without seeing the development of my hobby grind to a halt.

 

Seems to me Jeremy has done an excellent job of developing G.com to date and it'll get harder as the customer base increases; he's earned our trust to get on with it!

 

Dave

[Jeremy]

The short answer is at some point a decision must be made, and it is always done after careful consideration and through feedback in the forums. Considering that the US zipcodes for a large part contributed to the growth of geocaching (and a launching point for those that did not understand lat/lon or GPS usage), it made sense to spend the money to get postcodes for our friends overseas.

 

I just didn't want to give people the impression that we're wading through cash. We do have to make the right decisions so we can be around for years to come (or as long as my sanity holds out).

 

Jeremy Irish

Groundspeak - The Language of Location