GeoTrashing

March 3, 2002

I'm curious to know how many agree with the policy of condoning removal of physical caches, without the owners permission, even if they are archived (or deleted) on geocaching.com but published on other sites ?

This topic is discussed in more detail on

http://www.gpss.co.uk/geotrash.htm

Robin Lovelock

"the most hated geocacher in the world" - according to "TheAla" :-)

March 3, 2002

Sorry - GeoTrasher URL should have been

http://www.gpss.co.uk/geocache/geotrash.htm

March 3, 2002

I'd use the word 'Theft'

Spog

March 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Spog:
I'd use the word 'Theft'

Spog

Robin makes it clear that his caches are public property, so it isn't theft.

That said, I would not condone trashing of caches in any form and would hope that others would have the same attitude.

alex.

March 3, 2002

Even if they have been archived on geocaching.com, they cannot be physically removed (except by the owner) because as Robin points out, they may be published elsewhere.

------------------

Why use one word when two polysyllabic agglomerates will do?

March 3, 2002

I think that that, like a lot of geocaching issues, a degree of common sense should be used, with no hard-and-fast rule necessarily imposed.

In general it would be ideal to get permission from the cache owner in advance of removal but sometimes caches opught to be removed in instances when the owner is uncontactable, away or no longer active.

For example caches that have been placed badly and pose potential security risks etc.

March 3, 2002

OK here is my opinion

As a general rule physically removing caches without the owners / publishing web sites knowledge is wrong.

However, if the cache concerned contained unsavoury or inappropriate items then I could see a case for either removing the said items or cache as long as the owner / publishing web site were informed ASAP and the items/cache were made available for the owner to collect or in fact returned to the owner. I can see there being a grey area as to what items are deemed to be appropriate but that is another issue... having said that, there seem to be pretty clear cut rules as to what is allowed in geocaching.com.

Did the caches concerned or the pages on geocaching.com for these caches contravene any of these regulations?

Please remember this is just my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of geocaching.com as far as I am aware.

Regards

Monz

[This message has been edited by Monz (edited 03 March 2002).]

March 3, 2002

o what items are deemed to be appropriate but that is another issue... having said that, there seem to be pretty clear cut rules as to what is allowed in geocaching.com.

Did the caches concerned or the pages on geocaching.com for these caches contravene any of these regulations?

Please remember this is just my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of geocaching.com as far as I am aware.

Regards

Monz

[This message has been edited by Monz (edited 03 March 2002).]

March 3, 2002

Blinky Blimey,

Looks like Robin has lost at least 21 caches

Looks like someone really has it in for him, I hope it isn't one of us. That would be just so sad. I know robin has upset a few people but this does seem really childish.

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 3, 2002

sad. I know robin has upset a few people but this does seem really childish.

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 3, 2002

Blinky Blimey,

Looks like Robin has lost at least 21 caches

Looks like someone really has it in for him, I hope it isn't one of us. That would be just so sad. I know robin has upset a few people but this does seem really childish.

------------------

Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chris n maria:
Blinky Blimey,

Looks like Robin has lost at least 21 caches

quote

Where has he lost them from ? as he's not on the geocaching.com site. And I dont think any of our fellow Caches would go to those levels of removing caches. I know there have been bad feelings but we got the problem solved, Didn't we Robin?

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The Northumbrian

[This message has been edited by The Northumbrian (edited 03 March 2002).]

March 3, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chris n maria:
Blinky Blimey,

Looks like Robin has lost at least 21 caches

quote

Where has he lost them from ? as he's not on the geocaching.com site. And I dont think any of our fellow Caches would go to those levels of removing caches. I know there have been bad feelings but we got the problem solved, Didn't we Robin?

------------------

The Northumbrian

[This message has been edited by The Northumbrian (edited 03 March 2002).]

March 3, 2002

Oh this is just too sad for words.

As I see it the thing that makes Geocaching a great sport is the amazing generosity involved in it. A complete stranger spends time and effort to fill a box with goodies and then plants it somewhere they think people should see just for me and a few hundred other people - how nice is that.

Robin wanted to make a fast buck by using this generosity of spirit to promote his software business. He was stopped.

Now persons unknown have decided to remove all robins caches - presumably to right the first wrong. Oh Grow up! There are just too many injustices in the world for a few tupperware boxes to be that important.

------------------

Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:
Where has he lost them from ? as he's not on the geocaching.com site

I just looked on his site and they have physicaly gone missing.

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chris n maria:
I just looked on his site and they have physicaly gone missing.

What Site?

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The Northumbrian

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:
What Site?

http://www.**********/geocache/index.htm

[/b]

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chris n maria:

What sort of answer was that? a blank page.you seem to be going on about his lost caches a lot , So what site?

so pee or get off the pot

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The Northumbrian

[This message has been edited by The Northumbrian (edited 04 March 2002).]

March 4, 2002

http://www.**********/geocache/

March 4, 2002

No idea what hapened there something removed the URL...strange?

it's from his GPSS site as above. I'll try again:

http://www.**********/geocache/index.htm

March 4, 2002

quote:
No idea what hapened there something removed the URL...strange?

There are filters in place to try to prevent certain types of URL-abuse. One tries to filter out cookie-stealing. Maybe another is now filtering out sites about which complaints have been received?

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Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:
What Site?

The one that he mentioned in his first two posts on this thread. What other site would we be talking about?

[This message has been edited by jeremyp (edited 04 March 2002).]

March 4, 2002

Arial" size="2">Originally posted by chris n maria:

Oh this is just too sad for words.

Now persons unknown have decided to remove all robins caches - presumably to right the first wrong. Oh Grow up! There are just too many injustices in the world for a few tupperware boxes to be that important.

EXACTLY!!!

I agree this is childish. Not only sad, but what's the need? I thought this was all sorted out now?

They've also posted info on

each page for example

Incidentally according to their profile, this user first registered in Feb 2002, long after all this was originally discussed.

[This message has been edited by element14 (edited 04 March 2002).]

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by chris n maria:
Oh this is just too sad for words.

Now persons unknown have decided to remove all robins caches - presumably to right the first wrong. Oh Grow up! There are just too many injustices in the world for a few tupperware boxes to be that important.

EXACTLY!!!

I agree this is childish. Not only sad, but what's the need? I thought this was all sorted out now?

They've also posted info on

each page for example

Incidentally according to their profile, this user first registered in Feb 2002, long after all this was originally discussed.

[This message has been edited by element14 (edited 04 March 2002).]

March 4, 2002

I agree too. Not sure what Yomper and Theala are trying to do but they don't make us look good as a group.

March 4, 2002

As a newbie, I was planning to plant my first cache this afternoon. However, after initially following this thread, it just killed my enthusiasiam - such pettiness & downright nastiness. I could see this sport going the self-destructive way that so often happens.

I had pause for thought & decided that I could always carry on geocaching and just not read the forums.

Then I thought back to the emails I'd had from old hands - always helpful, always friendly & I decided to say 'sod the pillocks - there are more poeple I'd like to know in these forums'. So I'm going to stay (assuming I'm welcome here - I'm not local).

To the aggressors I simply say 'get a life. whatever your reasons, you are just making yourself look vindictive and petty. You'll never convince people that your words/actions are justified. Stop ruining the sport. The world is full of enough intolerance and aggression without your adding to it.'

Let's all be friends, hold hands and love each other. It makes everyone feel a lot better.

Spog

March 4, 2002

I would hope that theala is not typical of geocachers as a group. My impression is that he/she is not.

As far as I know (I only started geocaching about the time that all this stuff was dying down), Robin's caches were pulled because he tried to use www.geocaching.com to promote his business. The owners of the site and a lot of the UK geocaching community (as represented in this forum) felt that this was wrong, so the cache descriptions were archived. I think that's fair enough and that's where it should have ended. Robin made a mistake and the mistake was corrected.

Everything else that has gone on since has just been pure spite and vindictiveness. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Theala is the person that has been removing the caches (this is just an opinion and I apologise unreservedly if it's wrong).

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by element14:
EXACTLY!!!

I agree this is childish. Not only sad, but what's the need? I thought this was all sorted out now?

They've also posted info on

each page for example

Incidentally according to their profile, this user first registered in Feb 2002, long after all this was originally discussed.

[This message has been edited by element14 (edited 04 March 2002).]

Blimey! I checked the log about 10 minutes ago and it was still there. I checked again with the intention of e-mailing Theala and it's gone!

March 4, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by element14:

They've also posted info on

each page for example

[This message has been edited by element14 (edited 04 March 2002).]

These logs were posted to archived caches. They would never have seen the light of day until you chose to publish the link on this open forum.

Likewise, Chris and Maria did the same by publishing the link to "Dr. Rubbin Numbnutz's Laboratory", a cache page which never even saw the light of day as far as I am aware as it was never approved for release. Until Chris & Maria publishsed it, no one knew anything about it.

After a lul of about three months, it was Robin Lovelock who chose to open the can of worms again, not Yomper or Theala.

Think about it.

Anyway, for the benefit of the sensitve souls who did more to air the dirty laundry in public than I did, I have made sure that my offending logs have been deleted.

My last on this subject

March 5, 2002

helist.cgi?city=London&state=&country=&user=" TARGET=_blank>http://www.insidecorner.com/geocaching/stats/cachelist.cgi?city=London&state=&country=&user=

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

[This message has been edited by chris n maria (edited 05 March 2002).]

March 5, 2002

I don't think people were worried about the arguments it was more the Trashing people were upset by.

Anyway - can we let this one lie know that everyone has had their say?

By the way I didn't go looking for the archived cache I was just fascinatred when I found it here http://www.insidecorner.com/geocaching/stats/cachelist.cgi?city=London&state=&country=&user=

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

[This message has been edited by chris n maria (edited 05 March 2002).]

March 5, 2002

Hi All,

Firstly, let us say that there can never be any justification for removing a cache unless it belongs to the person removing it. The people most hurt by this action are those who try to find the missing cache.

We have watched this thread without saying anything because we think that whatever is said here, Robin will take no notice but it is worth another try.

There is a potential resolution to the continuous bickering that goes on here. Perhaps we all need to know exactly what his motives are and how he intends to use Geocaching.com in the future. I would therefore invite Robin to come back here into this thread to reply to the following questions so that we all understand his intentions :-

A. Would you be willing to use the Geocaching.com website purely as a hobby/pastime instead of an extension to your business ?

B. If Jeremy were to allow you to place new caches on this site, could you do so without mentioning your business or websites either on Geocaching.com website or in your caches and without requiring cachers to email you direct rather than through the 'mail bot' thereby compromising their privacy ?

C. Would you be willing to not put your advertising material (or allow others to do so on your behalf) into other peoples caches thereby using them as a vehicle for your advertising ?

D. Would you agree not to flood an area with your caches (which would deprive others of placing caches in that area, common sense must prevail) ?

I am sure that if you, Robin, can agree to play the game like all the other cachers then there would be no objection to you or your caches. You would upset a lot less people and perhaps your caches would not have been archived in the first place thereby saving all the ill feeling and bickering that has been going on.

I am sure that there are many new cachers out there who have visited this forum and who are now wondering what this is all about, to them I apologise, the history is long and I can only suggest that you take a look at previous threads on this forum. I have scanned through briefly and whilst there must be a number I have missed, I think the following are the most pertinent :-

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000115.html http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000116.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000140.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000143.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000170.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000197.html

Tim & June (Winchester)

March 5, 2002

no notice but it is worth another try.

There is a potential resolution to the continuous bickering that goes on here. Perhaps we all need to know exactly what his motives are and how he intends to use Geocaching.com in the future. I would therefore invite Robin to come back here into this thread to reply to the following questions so that we all understand his intentions :-

A. Would you be willing to use the Geocaching.com website purely as a hobby/pastime instead of an extension to your business ?

B. If Jeremy were to allow you to place new caches on this site, could you do so without mentioning your business or websites either on Geocaching.com website or in your caches and without requiring cachers to email you direct rather than through the 'mail bot' thereby compromising their privacy ?

C. Would you be willing to not put your advertising material (or allow others to do so on your behalf) into other peoples caches thereby using them as a vehicle for your advertising ?

D. Would you agree not to flood an area with your caches (which would deprive others of placing caches in that area, common sense must prevail) ?

I am sure that if you, Robin, can agree to play the game like all the other cachers then there would be no objection to you or your caches. You would upset a lot less people and perhaps your caches would not have been archived in the first place thereby saving all the ill feeling and bickering that has been going on.

I am sure that there are many new cachers out there who have visited this forum and who are now wondering what this is all about, to them I apologise, the history is long and I can only suggest that you take a look at previous threads on this forum. I have scanned through briefly and whilst there must be a number I have missed, I think the following are the most pertinent :-

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000115.html http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000116.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000140.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000143.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000170.html

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000197.html

Tim & June (Winchester)

March 5, 2002

Well put Timp...

March 5, 2002

quote:
Originally posted by Monz:
Well put Timp...

I agree with you Timp , Lets see what Robin has to say to your proposal, after all , had he not done what he done with his caches and making links to his money making scheme we would all have a peaceful and pleasant forum to read ,and it would be nice to get back to the good old days

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The Northumbrian

March 5, 2002

I'd like to second the Motion - but I'm too late so I'm Fourthing it

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Chris

We are not lost, we just don't know where we are..

March 5, 2002

quote:
D. Would you agree not to flood an area with your caches (which would deprive others of placing caches in that area, common sense must prevail) ?

We too have been keeping quite about this subject mainly as we have got involved in the sport just recently, however here is our pennies worth.

As someone who lives just up the road from Robin my first though was look at all the local places there are caches. However we have never visited any of Robins, as we have agreed with the statements of the majority in these forums.

We have also been interested in placing our own cache (only one) but have halted due to the amount of caches within the Surrey Berkshire border the area we have local knowledge of. I must admit that we were a little annoyed when Robin stated he is deploying more. Give someone else a chance

There is one other point that has been concerning us; Robin?s entry to Cobham?s Quest http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=11833

This hints that Robin jumped the farmer?s fence. All we can say to that is read the country code, and act responsibly or landowners will take appropriate action against us all.

March 6, 2002

ot get a bad reputation with landowners and other authorities. The result would be that others would have difficulty planting caches. Again, this is a subject already dealt with in depth on my website.

I don't think I've ever given reason for people to hurl the abuse that we've received on this newsgroup alone. Unfortunately mud sticks, and so I'm sure many of your readers (100 or 200 ballpark now?) do not have a good opinion of me. However, June and I are comforted by what we read on our logs - particularly the log books themselves, and by our conversations with people by email, phone or directly, who are not afraid to hide their identity.

Perhaps the most significant point in all this is that Jeremy Irish has, in all this time, not deleted the Lovelock caches. It is only recently, when these caches went missing, that the Robin Lovelock account write access was removed (locally?) and they are therefore highly misleading. Deletion of these caches is easy, by whoever has write access - you simply delete the description text, and change things like lat/lon to zeros, titles to "deleted" etc. I'm sure Jeremy has even neater ways.

In November 2001, following pressure from (an unknown) few on this newsgroup, Jeremy archived all the Lovelock caches. After protest from others, who had been happily visiting the caches, he un-archived them. After one of the moderators threatened to resign, he archived them again. When an American visited UK hoping to visit these caches, Jeremy suggested that he login and visit the archived cache pages using links from my site (which also has links to my backup pages and the two other geocaching sites). I've not had replies from Jeremy for some months, but understand that is a common problem and one that I have sympathy with him on (again explained on my site).

Now let me answer your questions Tim:

A. Would you be willing to use the Geocaching.com website purely as a hobby/pastime instead of an extension to your business ?

- Yes, this has been the case since I first started Geocaching.

The only connection is the indirect one that I have always openly declared: if Geocaching results in a massive increase in GPS product sales, it will also help my business.

B. If Jeremy were to allow you to place new caches on this site, could you do so without mentioning your business or websites either on Geocaching.com website or in your caches and without requiring cachers to email you direct rather than through the 'mail bot' thereby compromising their privacy ?

- Several points here, all of which I have no problem with, so long as I am protected from the sort of abuse I have already suffered. There is no immediate need to place new caches on this site, of course.

C. Would you be willing to not put your advertising material (or allow others to do so on your behalf) into other peoples caches thereby using them as a vehicle for your advertising ?

- No problem at all: our visiting card is not "advertising material" - if that is what you are thinking of: it gives links into our personal geocaching page hosted on my business web site, and links to all three major geocaching sites. It also has words promoting good practise. I'm sure no reasonable person would object to this card. If I could quote a URL here it would be to a picture of the card - but I can't. Are you happy with the 5(?) copies I dropped into your cache along with the torch, etc ? Or did you object to it Tim ?

D. Would you agree not to flood an area with your caches (which would deprive others of placing caches in that area, common sense must prevail) ?

- As mentioned earlier, my caches certainly do not prevent others planting theirs. Also, the density of my caches are far fewer than other clusters already, some of which you have visited, along with ours, logging nice words. You should see how dense the clusters of caches are in some places in the USA, or parts of Europe. If anyone wishes to plant caches within 20 miles of us in Sunninghill, I'll be glad to give what help I can, including donating materials such as boxes, cameras, and advice.

Part of that advice, after our own experience, would be to publish the caches on all three geocaching sites, in addition to keeping their own backups.

I think the average number of caches per user is 3:1 - see the front page of geocaching.com - however a very large number of Geocachers plant no caches at all, so it requires those that can to plant more than this average.

There you go folks: as always I feel more comfortable speaking with those who do not hide their identity. One or two postings on this site certainly do not deserve a reply, but Tim certainly did. I know he has a very poor opinion of me, and objected strongly to me phoning him on his published work number, but despite his hostility to me, I do have a high opinion of his good practise of Geocaching - both what he publishes on the Net and what he writes in log books - including our own.

Thankyou also to those who have spoken good sense here, even if you share the views of others about me - for whatever reason.

I only have one question now, before this thread is deleted:

Who of you think the Lovelock caches should have been removed without my consent ?

Robin Lovelock

22 Armitage Court

Sunninghill, Ascot

Berkshire, SL5 9TA

Tel: 01344 620775

email: gpss@compuserve.com

Geocaching page URL - not given since it would be deleted anyway :-)

------------------

Robin Lovelock

22 Armitage Court

Sunninghill

Ascot SL5 9TA

March 6, 2002

My personal two-pennorth on this one.

I'm not as bothered about the advertising thing as others seem to be, but I can see their point. Wouldn't it be easy for Robin to split the hobby side of geocaching of his website and put it on another domain? Take it totally away from g**s.co.uk? Domains are ten a penny these days, I'm sure he could find a suitable one and then all the accusations of advertising would stop.

More than anything it's the cache density that has always bothered me. Robin says that there are other places where cache clustering is worse. I don't think so. Looking at

http://brillig.com/geocaching/united_kingdom.shtml it's easy to spot where Robin lives.

Having 40 caches within 5 miles of Robin's front door would maybe not be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that they all seem to be 1/1 caches. By Robin's own admission, his caches have had lots of "accidental" finds from people who simply fell over them. There should be some sort of challenge in finding caches. I would say that any cache that can be found accidentaly, wasn't hidden properly in the first place.

So it seems that Robin is prepared to compromise on most of the points that Tim made, except on the question of cache density. That's a shame. I was hoping that we could all kiss and make up and get on with the game.

Alex.

March 6, 2002

that finance themselves through pop-up advertising in which case your web-sites will be covered with adverts which you didn't want.

Anyway wrt to Robin Lovelock, I think we should all kiss and make up. I don't have any problems with him placing caches, there'll be more for me to do and if I think they aren't very good, I'll put constructive criticism in the logs as I did with the SP series.

March 6, 2002

quote:
So it seems that Robin is prepared to compromise on most of the points that Tim made, except on the question of cache density. That's a shame.

Yep. To my mind the cache-density was the biggest problem with his caches. Whatever he says, if an area already has 40 caches, the opportunities for others to hide caches there are reduced.

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Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

March 6, 2002

First.. I do not hold to trashing caches, having had a couple of mine go the journey.

My main concerns were the amount of caches in such a small area.. and in such a short period of time. Also the continuous references to the GPSS site, and the I will not answer emails to questions sent via BOT attitude. Robin insists that he is a geocacher.. therefore he should accept the terms of geocaching. This includes the accepting of emails.. from where ever they come.

I do think Robin is trying to conform. What I have seen seems to show that he is playing the game, although the calling cards do seem to have aroused suspicion.

One point I would call into question is the base reason. If more folks buy GPS's then this may increase Robins software business. I honestly do not think this is a practical way. By default to carry out Geocaching you need to have a gps. The majority of folks I doubt would shell out a minimum of £100 just to see what this hobby is like. I talk with enthusiasm about the hobby to friends an colleges and usually all I get is a skeptical look. One frequently asks if I have been on a lunch box hunt lately.

I personally have had a GPS for several years before the hobby emerged. Robins software requires a lap top, I would love one, but even though I am in a reasonably well paid post, this is an expense I can not justify.

To finish I would like to say to Robin, I may have been one of your harshest critics but the only place to air your views is on the forums. You can not expect answers to your comments if they are not in the public eye. Meaning they should be posted to the forum, this way you get the feed back first hand .. not second.

If you agree to come into the fold as one of the fold then welcome, play the game as it was intended.

Moss de Boss... Sorta

March 6, 2002

Readers of this may need to refer to Robin's last reply on the old forums - the link is http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000276.html

Well Robin – for once in your life you started a thread and actually came back in to make a post !! well done – that must have taken some effort.

To pick up on some of your points….