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Seifer

By Seifer
in United Kingdom and Ireland

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
Posted

Having just learn how to do backgrounds with HTML, i feel pretty proud and have been adding them to all our cache pages.

 

One question, is it possible to do music with HTML or do I have to use javascript for that?

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

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paul.blitz

+paul.blitz

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by SimonG:

You can do it like this:

 

Thanks for that.... I have a simple, tacky, but actually RELEVANT tune to go with a cache we just placed (I'd like to say WHICH cache, but then I'd either have to kill you, Michael or myself!). If people REALLY complain, we'll take it off!

 

Team Blitz

 

No, I gave YOU the spare batteries....

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Nia:

from what i know of 'team blitz' i expect the tune will be part of a clue to help you find a thing to solve a puzzle to .................

 

So it won't be tacky, more esential i guess.

 

Tech-no notice

 

Hey, we're evil, but not THAT dadgum evil. Hang on, that gives me an idea....icon_biggrin.gif

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

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The Northumbrian

+The Northumbrian

Posted
Posted

I like the idea of background music on a cache page, but if I added some to a page for all to listen to, Do I need copyright permission to add

it? A couple of years ago I added a map to a poster and was very nearly sued over it by a local council who had produced the map, It took a bit of explaining,and that it was only to show people where a sale was to take place, but I did get a severe warning from the council legal dept, and the letter ran into 5 pages, This is just a question, so please no one take it the wrong way, It's your advise I'm after,

Nige

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

Do I need copyright permission to add

it?

 

I dont think so, unless it's blatently obvious that it's copyrighted very well. EG i wouldnt put Sum 41's new song on a cache page.

 

I think the answer is to put the song on, but also provide a link to the site that has it on

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

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paul.blitz

+paul.blitz

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

I like the idea of background music on a cache page, but if I added some to a page for all to listen to, Do I need copyright permission to add

it?

 

On some sites where there are images / maps etc, they specifically say (for copyright reasons) that you may link to their page, but may NOT copy the images.

 

Copyright exists at many levels: in music, there is copyright in a composition, in a performance, and in a recording (that's 3 fingers in the pie for recent music that is still itself copyrighted).

 

The piece of music I linked to (English Country Garden) is itself free of copyright, but the midi file (the "performance") WILL be copyrighted... so being pedantic, linking to it is ok, but copying it would be breaking copyright.

 

In principle, the same applies to images and programs.

 

Paul

 

Team Blitz

 

No, I gave YOU the spare batteries....

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jeremyp

+jeremyp

Posted
Posted

Firstly IANAL so if I'm wrong it's your fault if you get into trouble.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:

The copyright thing isnt really your problem its the person who created the MIDI files problme.

Not true. If you publish somebody else's midi file without permission, you are breaching their copyright on the midi file and possibly any copyright that might exist on the music itself.

 

quote:

I dont hink its a good idea to link the HTML to the source site though....you should download it yourself and upload it again to your web soace, that way you have total control over when it stays and when it goes.

That's true on the technical level. On the legal level it might be better to link to the source site. You might be able to claim that you didn't copy the music but merely showed people where to get it from. Does publishing a link to a midi file constitute a performance bearing in mind that most people's browsers will play it straight away?

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Hey, I've just noticed something: on your profile page you can't put sounds or backgrounds on, has any1 else noticed this or is there a way to get around this?

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

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Rocky Balboa

+Rocky Balboa

Posted
Posted

This conversation has really interested me. I thought Midis were just files to use on the internet? where else are they used? - Heres my probably useless advice anyway - use the file if you want to. I think the chances of getting sued over using a midi is minimal, like less than winning the lottery. However this isn't meant to say that all the other comments are wrong - you probably could be sued, just not likely.

 

Dan Wilson - www.Buckscaching.co.uk

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Tim & June

+Tim & June

Posted
Posted

I wonder what the implications are for Geocaching.com

 

There have been a number of ISP's taken to court over the content of newsgroup postings (which the ISP has no control over) because which they allowed these postings to pass through their servers.

 

Also:

France successfully won a case (in the French Courts) against Yahoo because Yahoo in the USA allowed the sale of Nazi memorabilia on their website which was, of course, available all over the world, including France. The sale of Nazi memorabilia is illegal in France.

 

This case continues because the French have issued court proceedings in America against Yahoo. It must be costing Yahoo millions.

 

To us in the UK, the examples above seem to be ridiculous, but I bet the ISP's and Yahoo don't think so.

 

The upshot of all this is, what is the legal position of Geocaching.com when it comes to copyright issues. Remember, neither the ISP's nor Yahoo actually posted the material they were being held responsible for, the USERS did.

 

Could Jeremy fight off a big case from the big guns at PRS or EMI ? or would he just have to close down and call it a day?

 

I think we should protect what we have.

 

Tim & June (Winchester)

 

See June, I told you that sign which said 'Unsuitable for Motor Vehicles' was wrong ! icon_smile.gif

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el10t

el10t

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Wilson:

I thought Midis were just files to use on the internet? where else are they used?

I am not a MIDI expert but have used it a little, so in the spirit of forum responses I shall answer in an authoratative manner as though I know what I am talking about. icon_wink.gif

 

MIDI stands for something along the lines of "Musical Information Digital Interchange". This almost certainly isn't exactly correct but someone out there will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

It was originally developed as a standard "language" that enabled musical instruments to talk to each other. The advantage of this was that if, for example, you were a really great clarinet player but hopeless on the piano you could link up your MIDI-enabled clarinet to a digital piano and play the piano using the clarinet without having to learn chord structures etc on the piano keyboard.

 

The other advantage of it was that you could make recordings of your perfomances using very little storage space - the MIDI format encodes things like note-on and note-off events rather than sampling any sound being played. Of course any perfomance you record like this can be played back through any MIDI-enabled instrument you like, including the sound card in your PC.

 

I have a Yamaha keyboard that has a floppy disk drive in it so I can get MIDI files off the internet, bung them on a floppy and get the keyboard to play them. It shows the notes in a little window as it plays them so you can (in theory) learn how to play your favourite tracks on the piano.

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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Richard & Beth

+Richard & Beth

Posted
Posted

Tim's posting on copyright in cache pages has lead me thinking about other legal issues, specifically related to who owns the caches?

 

The majority of the caches in the UK are on privately owned land, abeit private land with public access. Who owns them? Do the people who have hidden them? Or the landowner? Or Geocaching.com? Or are they public domain?

 

The following examples have actually turned up in UK Geocaches at some point. However if authorities found pirated software, or drugs being distributed through caches would we as the person who hid the cache be held responsible? or would the landowner on whose land the cache has been placed? Or geocaching.com?

 

Richard

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Ben Pid

Ben Pid

Posted
Posted

Hmmm interesting thought! would have to take it up withthe police for an actual answer but my guess is the landowner because its his land.

 

As regards to all this talk on MIDI files, I am aware they annoy the majority of Users(MCL being one) so as you have said to protect what we have I have taken all the MIDI files off of my pages that could be done for copyrighting...I have left all the traditional music ones though....like the one with "English Country Garden" because at the end of the day that is a nationally sung song which cant have a copyright can it?

 

Pid

 

Ben Piddington http://www.buckscaching.co.uk

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el10t

el10t

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:

...because at the end of the day that is a nationally sung song which cant have a copyright can it?

Not sure about this. I think "Happy Birthday" is copyrighted despite being a nationally sung song so every time you sing it you should pay royalties to someone. Don't know who though - wish it was me icon_smile.gif

 

Rich

mobilis in mobili

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:

"English Country Garden

 

Hey, thats the one on our page.

 

Out of interest, how would people feel about me using a 10second audio clip of a popular song, THE CD TO WHICH I ALREADY OWN, played backwards. Is this copyright as I own the recordings, are editing them myself and are playing them so the are not instantly recognisable. What do you think?

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

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SimonG

+SimonG

Posted
Posted

I just did a web search on copyright laws. Since this is a US site, I figure it's the US law which matters. I found the relevant section of the Copyright Act here, which states:

 

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use, the factors to be considered shall include:-

 

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

 

Under these rules, I think a ten second clip for non-commercial purposes would be perfectly acceptable.

 

W ezlf fr Cnzfajnzb Omdg, mlx mnn w prf emq fjwq nrhqb abojzd.

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The Northumbrian

+The Northumbrian

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Team Blitz (Michael):

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:

"English Country Garden

 

Hey, thats the one on our page.

 

Out of interest, how would people feel about me using a 10second audio clip of a popular song,

 

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

 

3.5 69 736.5 4106 15637.5

Why not contact jeremy Irish The site owner and ask his views? Does this sort of thing not take up more of the server or whatever space and then cost more to run the site, I think thats why we were asked if we would like to become paying subscribers back in march. if it turns out that it does affect the site and the download times of viewing the pages we might find that our subcripions may be increased the next time we pay.

I know nothing on the subject of servers or how these sites work, but not to old to learn more and getter a better insight as the the workings of such things. icon_confused.gif

Nige

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The Artful Dodger

The Artful Dodger

Posted
Posted

I was just browsing the UK board per chance and thought I would help out regarding embedded music - since I am guilty of inserting them in a lot of my pages.

 

Some of my cache pages have the music all set to go, all the cacher has to do is activate it by pressing PLAY. Here are a couple of examples:

 

~Phantasmagoria~

Rapture of the Deep

Durban's Botanical View

 

The code for the above is:

 

<embed src=http://www.musicwebsitegoeshere.mid hidden=false align=center autostart=false autoplay=false loop=false width="137" height="25">

 

The above link will display a mini console. The page viewer can elect to play it or not. It should be easy to change the above code to autoplay if desired.

 

Also, as mentioned, you can upload the MID or WAV to the cache page and link to it. You can delete the link from the cache page so it doesnt display but the physical link still exists in geocaching.com's database.

 

My rollover sound effects are created by javascript which is another step altogether ...

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Seifer

Seifer

Posted
  • Author
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

[Why not contact jeremy Irish The site owner and ask his views? Does this sort of thing not take up more of the server or whatever space and then cost more to run the site, I think thats why we were asked if we would like to become paying subscribers back in march. if it turns out that it does affect the site and the download times of viewing the pages we might find that our subcripions may be increased the next time we pay.

I know nothing on the subject of servers or how these sites work, but not to old to learn more and getter a better insight as the the workings of such things. icon_confused.gif

Nige

 

I have 2 options here it seems. My original question was about the copyright aspect and my original idea was to upload the song onto my server and then point to it, not upload it directly onto the geocaching server.

 

As a non-paying member, i would feel guilty about using up space that I wasn't paying for and thus increasing the premium that you people pay.

 

I don't want to uset anyone here, this is just a bit of fun...now i wonder if i can get an answer to my original question?!

 

Michael aka 1/2 of Team Blitz

 

Wqablz-xqxw tdqml kwfwm twjowcl di klelqklqok ejw hepw gt dm lbw ktdl!

 

26 27.75 34.2(recuring) 41.09275 480.048 55.027777777(carrys on!) 62.01749271

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The Northumbrian

+The Northumbrian

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Geo Weasel:

Artful Dodger your pages are certainly artisitc! Nice one.

 

I can see JeremyP crinching though...LoL.

 

Yes Northumbrian was saying about uploading to the Server and using Geocaching.com space...I do not use Geocaching.com webspace for my pictures because as Michael said it isnt fair, Only use ones which I link from my own webspace.

 

Pid

 

Ben Piddington http://www.buckscaching.co.uk

 

Yes pid , But what about the music on your

cache Burial mound. When I click on details for that cache the music starts to play and I dont need to click on any link or anything, I'm not knocking it mind you , as I think its very very good and that music makes it sound a very interesting cache,

Nige

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The Artful Dodger

The Artful Dodger

Posted
Posted

Northumrian,

 

My Phantasmagoria page uses both a background soundtrack (that is user activated) and sound effects (that is activated by a mouse rollover - hotspots that are activated when the mouse is dragged over an image).

 

I have another cache page: Puzzled...? that also employs sound effect mouse rollovers. The sound effects cannot be user controlled. They are either ON or OFF. I believe the effects enhanced the page and therefore left on intentionally. icon_wink.gif Another example is my Travel Bug Hotel

 

An example where I intentionally have a background MIDI that is auto-on is my JukeBox cache. It just seemed...appropriate.

 

[This message was edited by The Artful Dodger on November 14, 2002 at 11:29 AM.]

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The Artful Dodger

The Artful Dodger

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Artful Dodger:

Northumrian,

 

My Phantasmagoria page uses both a background soundtrack (that is user activated) and sound effects (that is activated by a mouse rollover).

 

I have another cache page: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=36454 that also employs sound effect mouse rollovers only. The sound effects cannot be user controlled. They are either ON or OFF. I believe the effects enhanced the page and therefore left on intentionally. icon_wink.gif

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jeremyp

+jeremyp

Posted
Posted

If one of us posts material on the geocaching site and the owner objects, who is liable?

 

This kind of thing has happened before. What usually happens is that the site is sued I think because it's much easier to target the site (rather than the possibly anonymous poster). I think the site and owner are jointly liable but I may be horribly wrong. Anyway in practice, the owner would send a nasty letter to Jeremy and he would remove the offending material to avoid a court case.

 

"Happy Birthday" was written surprisingly recently and it is still in copyright.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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jeremyp

+jeremyp

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by The Northumbrian:

 

Why not contact jeremy Irish The site owner and ask his views? Does this sort of thing not take up more of the server or whatever space and then cost more to run the site, I think thats why we were asked if we would like to become paying subscribers back in march. if it turns out that it does affect the site and the download times of viewing the pages we might find that our subcripions may be increased the next time we pay.

I know nothing on the subject of servers or how these sites work, but not to old to learn more and getter a better insight as the the workings of such things. icon_confused.gif

Nige

If it's a MIDI file, it'll be quite small. The only way I know of to upload files to geocaching is to pretend it's a photograph. A MIDI file is probably much smaller than the average jpeg that most of us put on geocaching pages and logs.

 

Having said, that it would probably be better for Michael to put the sound file on his own site and link to it from geocaching. That way, it would use no extra bandwidth on the geocaching site.

 

-------

jeremyp

The second ten million caches were the worst too.

http://www.jeremyp.net/geocaching

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Team Minim

+Team Minim

Posted
Posted

Copyright?

 

The problem for the net is whose laws apply, this is an american site with a UK set of caches, should we get a mechanical copyright licence UK style or apply to teh states? in any case a quick rule of thumb, if the tune is by a composer over 70 years dead, and you are using your own arrangement e.g. MIDI file, then they are "out of copyright" carry on as mormal, a recent CD sampled track is charged by the time used, so 15 seconds could be £5-£50 depending on track, audience and venue....

Clear? I don't think so, but that's how the prs see it.

 

Shares in Tupperware? Be a Geocacher!

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paul.blitz

+paul.blitz

Posted
Posted

quote:
Technically, you can't even sing it in a restaurant without obining a performance licence.

 

Ah, don't forget that, to have music in a public place in england, you also need a licence from the local authority... and that is on top of the other levels of copyright:

 

- on the composition (ie person who invented tune / words)

- on the performance

- on the recording

 

In England (coz they can't get their act together like in almost ALL other countries) we have 3 organisations that collect copyright fees: PPL, PRS and MCPS.

 

PPL seems to deal mainly with playing of records (ie radio needletime); PRS deal with "public performance" which covers the school play, music on hold, music in shops, music over the internet; MCPS deal with "copying" of music... eg making compilation CDs (Now 43etc).

 

In radio, you end up paying all 3....

 

So to answer Michaels questions: if you copy a piece of copyrighted music in any way, without permission, that is against the law. So placing a backwards piece of music online would be breaking copyright on each the composition & the performance and the recording!

 

If you recorded it yourself, then you own the performance & recording, but not the composition!

 

Last year, I was involved in a live webcast of an awards ceremony, and we needed some "pre-show music", and we had to be VERY careful to ensure we had copyright-free music!

 

paul

 

Team Blitz

 

No, I gave YOU the spare batteries....

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