What is he up to

[Guest rediguana]

Just found this thread - I'm a Kiwi (and not in the UK LOL!)

 

After having a look at some of the issues here, I'd have to say.

 

Give Robin a warning, and place conditions on his cache pages. I don't have a problem with him putting free copies of software in his caches. The problem comes with; cachers web link on the cache page (directly to GPS related business), multiple links on cache description pages (a link to a map, places you on a huge download page you have to scroll halfway down to find - past links to GPS software prices, and the little bit about his contact details. He should have to remove all links to his GPSS site, and remove the little trailer about contacting him through his compuserve email. If he doesn't reply through a geocaching.com message - his tough luck. Also he should not be allowed to mention he is in GPS industry on his cache pages. If he wants to host geocaching stuff separate from his business he can get a personal domain - of course he is still entitled to link to GPSS from there. It is just less obvious than going directly to the GPSS domain - which is what he wants.

 

If he doesn't change the cache pages within a week, then delete them.

 

I don't know if the is the first major case of commercialism in caches, but this is the biggest I've seen yet.

 

To quote Star Wars TPM "Wipe them out, all of them!" - commercial caches that is

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest The Northumbrian]

A friend of mine has this morning Emailed me

to tell me about a great new hobby of his.

He said that its called Geocaching, so I

replied and told him I had been doing for a while and found great enjoyment with it, I then went on to tell him how it is being spiolt by Commercial caches in the south near him ,He lives near Reading .You may soon hear of him as he has called himself

THE BINMAN and he loves nothing better than a clean enviroment free from Commercialism.

So he said that he only intends to visit commercial caches but not to log them , Only

to put them in his black bin bag and deposit them on the local rubish dump Without even opening the cache

So we may see an end in sight to these bad for the sport caches

"Well done The Binman"

------------------

The Northumbrian

 

[This message has been edited by The Northumbrian (edited 02 November 2001).]

[Guest BumbleBee]

I don't think that's the way to go.

It's not up to us to remove them. Either Robin Lovelock should remove them himself or they should be archived by Jeremy.

 

If Robin wants them all to stay in place then maybe he should consider advertising his caches on his company's website only.

 

 

------------------

 

-Emma-

[Guest theGophers]

Now he's just taking the p***. Another one by Rogin & June's Dad with pictures of Robin hiding it.

 

Go Away!

[Guest BumbleBee]

If my maths is correct (it very often isn't)

 

13 votes for them to be removed

 

1 vote for them to listed as 'semi-commercial'

 

0 votes for them to stay

 

------------------

 

-Emma-

 

[This message has been edited by BumbleBee (edited 02 November 2001).]

[Guest Lozsing]

I think its up to the Lovelocks to be asked to clear them up first and given a time limit , if by then they are not removed them , then let the binman have them .

 

[This message has been edited by Lozsing (edited 02 November 2001).]

[Guest kitcat]

as a relative newcomer to geocaching,i think that there shouldnt be commercial caches like this and certainly not this amount of them,i agree give them a time limit to remove them,if nothing happens remove them.

 

 

[This message has been edited by kitcat (edited 02 November 2001).]

[Guest JasonW]

While the appeal of the Binman clearing them up is great, I think the right course of action is for them to be removed from Geocaching.com and then we needn't care too much what happens after that - might be worth the binman popping round and removing the standard stashnote that ties it to Geocaching.com though.

[Guest backtrac]

i've been watching whats been said about commercial caches, if i want commercials i'll watch tv, caches should be placed for the right reasons and advertising a business is not in my opinion a right reason, i'm with the group of cachers who think these caches should be archived.

[Guest Kimrobin]

I understand that Jeremy is concerned about what is happening and will be taking some action tomorrow.

 

Watch this space.

 

Alex.

[Guest k2dave]

After a quick look, I have had the following thoughts:

 

1 He is being honest about his intentions.

 

2 He is followinghte geocaching rules.

 

3 He is providing his own product for free in the caches (I don't know if it is a good product)

 

4 He is trying to expand the scope of geocaching.

 

As for the commercial aspect - it's already here - look around Jeremy sells geocaching items - garmin has included a geocache icon on their gps and basically a ad for Garmin has shown up on the geocache website plus a link to amazon.com and the newest from Mag and Gar.

 

(I not faulting Jeremy for the above - hey he has to make a living somehow)

 

Also some of the 'commercial' caches (i.e. planet of the apes and one sponsered by a orentating club) has some of the most valuable items making the find just a little sweeter.

 

My vote is as long as he is following the rules it should stay. Perhaps as previoulys commented a commercial cache catagory could be created (try saying that 5 times fast).

[Guest JasonW]

quote:

---

Originally posted by k2dave:

2 He is followinghte geocaching rules.

---

He may be following the letter of the rules, but IMHO not the spirit of the rules - in a 20 mile radius there are over 25 caches planted by the same person - perhaps the highway authorities there are hoping that the entire area will be tiled with caches and save them the job and expense of maintaining the roads.

 

quote:

---

3 He is providing his own product for free in the caches (I don't know if it is a good product)

---

I tried it, but found it completely counterintuitive, and frustrating to set up.

 

quote:

---

4 He is trying to expand the scope of geocaching.

---

 

Yes, but the explosion of caches in such a small (heavily populated) area seems just way too much.

 

quote:

---

As for the commercial aspect - it's already here - look around Jeremy sells geocaching items - garmin has included a geocache icon on their gps and basically a ad for Garmin has shown up on the geocache website plus a link to amazon.com and the newest from Mag and Gar.

 

(I not faulting Jeremy for the above - hey he has to make a living somehow)

---

 

The link to Amazon actually provides income (to provide $$ for the running of the site - quality internet hosting is rarely if ever free) the odd bits of merchandise are never likely to turn much of a profit - they seem to be more like a service to Geocachers to me.

[Guest laurie]

ite showing caches placed???

 

Laurie

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by laurie:

(From the other side of the pond)

 

OK, did anyone notice that the map on the GPSS Website has the same points marked as users of the GPSS software as the map on the Geocaching website showing caches placed???

 

Laurie

---

 

I does sorta look like that huh? Even worse (for the people that have "registered" GPSS) are those links to the email addresses of all the users. OMG, that is spammers heaven. Thousands of email addys ripe for harvest. Man would I be pissed if any company I did any sort of biz with did that.

[Guest laurie]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mopar:

I does sorta look like that huh? Even worse (for the people that have "registered" GPSS) are those links to the email addresses of all the users. OMG, that is spammers heaven. Thousands of email addys ripe for harvest. Man would I be pissed if any company I did any sort of biz with did that.

---

 

Not only that but looks like the coordinates for each "registered" person is posted for anyone to get! You would have to peel me off the ceiling if any company I worked with did that to me (head spinning, etc.... think "The Exorcist").

[Guest BumbleBee]

I've seen the GPSS software in action and I absolutely hated it. The worst part was the insanely boring and irritating voice. AAARRRGGGHHHH!

 

The pronunciation of some places leaves a lot to be desired too - Especially the Welsh ones. Very bad attempts.

 

All I wanted to do was hit the dadgum thing repeatedly with a hammer.

 

Luckily the GPS wasn't mine and the software wasn't registered. If any company did that to me you'd have to...oh, never mind.

 

------------------

 

-Emma-

 

 

[This message has been edited by BumbleBee (edited 04 November 2001).]

[Guest laurie]

ARGHHH!!!! I have to remember to to go "back" after I post!!!

 

Laurie

[Guest JasonW]

quote:

---

Originally posted by laurie:

ARGHHH!!!! I have to remember to to go "back" after I post!!!

 

Laurie

---

 

You could use the Edit/Delete option on your duplicate post

[Guest theGophers]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kimrobin:

I understand that Jeremy is concerned about what is happening and will be taking some action tomorrow.

---

 

Can he hurry? Yet another one hidden.

 

Does anyone else find it offensive that Robin has not yet commented on this tread for himself?

 

Stephen

[Guest Moss Trooper]

Yes. I sure would if I was getting all this flak!! Obvious by his absence!!

 

Moss the Boss.. he de man (can dream can't I )

[Guest Moss Trooper]

Yes. I sure would if I was getting all this flak!! Obvious by his absence!!

 

Moss the Boss.. he de man (can dream can't I )

[Guest timp]

Hang on a bit!

 

A number of people here have mentioned that he is not breaking the rules, including Jeremy:

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeremy:

Here's my problem. He seems to be overtly following the rules on these caches, so it is hard for me to put the foot down, so to speak, on his caches. I perfectly understand covertly he is using the sport to promote his software (and he's been constantly contacting my partner about doing "stuff" with geocaching. Not sure what that means). However, since he is basically working a loophole here it is hard for me to crack down on it.

 

Jeremy

---

 

Unless I have missed something, the only place I can see anything about commercial caches is on the "Hide and seek a cache" page and the "submit a cache" page where it says

 

"READ FIRST: This is a free service. Only caches of a non-commercial nature can be posted through this form. If you wish to create a commercial cache or promotion, please contact us first. Caches perceived of a commercial nature will not be approved."

 

I think the important phrase here is "perceived of a commercial nature " there is no question that these are "perceived of a commercial nature" therefore, no question.

 

Unless, of course I have missed something, Jeremy, you have no problem.

[Guest Mopar]

30+ caches in a smaller area then the last town i lived in.

[Guest BumbleBee]

>Does anyone else find it offensive that Robin has not yet commented on this thread for himself?

 

...If only he had the time!

 

 

------------------

 

-Emma-

[Guest JasonW]

quote:

---

Originally posted by theGophers:

Does anyone else find it offensive that Robin has not yet commented on this tread for himself?

---

 

Erm - he has browser issues (his words not mine) - not enough of an issue to prevent him from reporting his 30+ caches, but apparently too much for him to get here reliably - If only he had the time/inclination to reinstall his browser!

[Guest Moss Trooper]

OK.. time for being the Boss..

 

Jerremy.. he is making a fool out of you.. and us.. I have read a comment from a totally different forum. Geological and he is anoying them.. I don't know how many of the UK cachers are gona back me up on this.. either he goes or I go.. If nothing is decided one way or the other. then I will archive all my caches.. an go pick em up.. is either him or me..

 

Moss..

[Guest jeremy]

My lack of responding doesn't mean I'm not doing anything about it. Have patience for a day or two.

 

Jeremy

[Guest Moss Trooper]

OK.. Jeremy (Spels nam write)

 

Just he is peeing folks off I'm afraid.. (geodie speak) My yer a canny lad like

 

[This message has been edited by Moss Trooper (edited 05 November 2001).]

[Guest Moss Trooper]

OK.. Jeremy (Spels nam write)

 

Just he is peeing folks off I'm afraid.. (geodie speak) My yer a canny lad like

 

[This message has been edited by Moss Trooper (edited 05 November 2001).]

[Guest jeremy]

Disregard my last statement. From previous discussions it is easier to take action and archive the caches first, then come to an amiable resolution.

 

The ayes have it.

 

Jeremy

[Guest Moss Trooper]

Thank you Jeremy.

 

Moss Trooper.

[Guest timp]

Sorry Moss Trooper,

 

You have NOW been overtaken!

 

"Jeremy the Boss.. he de man"

 

It don't have quite the same ring to it, apologies !

 

Ta-Taa from down south.

[Guest The Northumbrian]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jeremy:

Disregard my last statement. From previous discussions it is easier to take action and archive the caches first, then come to an amiable resolution.

 

The ayes have it.

 

Jeremy

---

 

"WELL DONE " that man

 

------------------

The Northumbrian

[Guest dhm.munro]

Phew..........common sense prevails at last.

Do I here we have recruited 40 + binmen to place a few more caches around Scotland !

[Guest mbrett]

The first I heard about this was when Robin advised me (and presumably all of the logged entries to his caches) via email that all of his caches had been archived.

 

I for one am disappointed by this turn of events. My wife is disabled, and our children our very young, so long drives and rough walks are out of the question. The Lovelock caches we have found to date have been high quality, in scenic areas, and easily accessible to us. We were looking forward to finding more over the coming months, as they made for an enjoyable day out that was perfectly matched to our physical

abilities.

 

I was never offended by the mention of their family business and the free CDs in the caches. I see them like some of the ads that show up on Usenet newsgroups -- if the messages are hype-free, on-topic and

make a contribution to the discussion they are tolerated and even welcomed by the newsgroup "regulars". Robin's caches were all extremely well put-together with detailed descriptions including photos, plus cameras, logbooks and an interesting selection of

treasures in the waterproof boxes. In short, they were a huge asset to the game. And it's not as if he was promoting a product or service that's of no interest to the GPS community -- I don't use GPSS but a quick look through Google proves it has a lot of fans amongst the GPS set. His aim is the same as this group's -- to promote GPS use through geocaching. If he succeeds in this, Geocaching.com (not only the network of geocachers but also the revenue to the web site operators) benefits too.

 

I urge you to reconsider your decision and reinstate Robin's caches.

[Guest BumbleBee]

nd more to this thread - for some reason he (and they) decided not to.

 

The number of caches in such a small area was, I believe, reason enough to archive them and to serve as a warning that this is not acceptable for the future of our hobby.

 

There is absoultely no doubt amoung us that they were also of a commercial nature - and that's against the rules set by Jeremy.

 

What also annoys me is the fact that Robin STILL can't be bothered to come to this forum and discuss things further. Instead, he gets you to do it!

 

One or two of his caches would have probably gone unoticed. However, he took it too far trying to promote his business.

 

I, for one, do not wish to see Robin's caches reinstated. As far as I'm concerned he's ruining the name of the sport.

 

 

------------------

 

-Emma-

[Guest Mopar]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BumbleBee:

mbrett,

 

Robin and any of his 'supporters' have had ample time to respond more to this thread - for some reason he (and they) decided not to.

---

That is odd. I've wondered about that. His excuse of browser problems doesnt hold water very well. I mean, 1st off, he is a "webmaster" for his company's site. EVERY web developer I've ever known (outside the "this is my geocities homepage" set) has more then 1 browser installed. At least IE and Netscape, and usually several versions of each and more. The reason is different browsers handle HTML different, and you would want to make sure that half your potential customers are not having "browser problems" accessing your site. Second, he is a software programmer. Never saw one of them with access to only one machine either, for pretty much the same reasons. Not to mention, if your to believe after all these years of programming he still only owns one machine, that machine is just a laptop! Nope, I don't buy it.

[Guest LazyLeopard]

When I found this forum the flames were already blazing, so I've just watched 'til now...

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbrett:

The first I heard about this was when Robin advised me (and presumably all of the logged entries to his caches) via email that all of his caches had been archived.

---

 

I don't think his caches would have caused nearly so much of a stir if he had:

 

1. Made appropriate arrangements in advance for placing commercial caches.

 

2. Spread his caches more widely (ie with much greater distances between them) around the world, or at least around the country.

 

------------------

Purrs... LazyLeopard

 

[This message has been edited by LazyLeopard (edited 06 November 2001).]

[Guest f-stop]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BumbleBee:

 

One or two of his caches would have probably gone unoticed. However, he took it too far trying to promote his business.

 

I, for one, do not wish to see Robin's caches reinstated. As far as I'm concerned he's ruining the name of the sport.

 

[/b]

---

Totally agree with you Bumblebee, the quantity of caches he dropped was bad enough, but to just carry on and fly in the face of the opposition suggests someone hellbent on SELF PROMOTION and not the promotion of Geocaching.

[Guest Kimrobin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by mbrett:

I for one am disappointed by this turn of events. My wife is disabled, and our children our very young, so long drives and rough walks are out of the question. The Lovelock caches we have found to date have been high quality, in scenic areas, and easily accessible to us. We were looking forward to finding more over the coming months, as they made for an enjoyable day out that was perfectly matched to our physical

abilities.

---

 

Good news Marc. You can still do Robin's caches. They can still be accessed if you are logged on to www.geocaching.com.

 

Just go to Robin's page at

http://www.gpss.co.uk/geocache.htm

and click the links at the bottom. They will still appear.

 

Hope this helps

Alex.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Kimrobin (edited 06 November 2001).]

[Guest davehinns]

the next visitor. Surely a request to do so could be put on the cache description.

 

P.S. I have nothing to do with Robin, GPSS etc.

 

PPSS. Yup I know the solution would be to put some caches locally and we are already discussing this as a family.

 

Now I know this forum is here I'll keep an eye on it.

[Guest Kimrobin]

You make some valid points Dave.

 

It's unfortunate it has got this far, but Robin knew there was a problem a month ago but he carried on and has planted nine caches since then.

 

I think the final straw for many people was the smirking picture of himself that was posted in a cache description earlier this week.

 

He knew what he had to do to stop his caches being pulled but chose not to. Maybe they will be back.

 

Alex.

[Guest theGophers]

quote:

---

Originally posted by LazyLeopard:

[b2.

Spread his caches more widely around the world, or at least around the country.

[/b]

---

 

God forbid. That was something that I was dreading. If his caching attitude spread to the country parks and nature reserves then the sport would be doomed.

 

Why did he not argue his case. Why did he not eMail his supporters until it was too late. Why does he still not argue his case.

 

Im sorry for you people who do not want to travell too far to find a cache but I feel that is one of the major benifits of this game. To go somewhere where you would never dream of going, packed lunch et al, just because a small piece of plastic with batteries points you there...

 

...and when you get there, the sceanary, the views, the landscape, the trill of the chase and the find.

 

If my GPS could talk it would say "see I told you."

 

The only way I would like to see the caches re-instated would be to cut them down to 10%, remove the offensive comment about the business web site, fix his browser and apologise for ignoring us.

 

Stephen McNally

[Guest LazyLeopard]

quote:

---

Originally posted by theGophers:

God forbid.

---

 

I've clarified my original comment...

[Guest davehinns]

OK, I've re-read the whole thread again and I'm sorry if this gets a little long winded.

 

To be honest it seems like the only people complaining are those who haven't visited any of Robin's caches. I always try to think the best of people so to me the number of caches placed just smacks of someone making the most of his interests, rather than trying to promote his business (which I take to be a one man band company by the way!).

 

I've been to 5 (I think) of Robins caches. All have been in interesting places with more to do than just get to the cache. Is it Robins fault he lives in a part of the country with a large number of parks/open spaces (Old Royal hunting grounds etc).

 

I've just come back from friends at Worksop, where we did two caches. The first Football Stars - Not a bad cache but just a bit of forest by the side of the road, the second I've forgotten (sorry) but was where my friends wife works. Nice adventure playground for the kids, cafe - well worth a visit. Now in the Sherwood forest area I was spoilt for choice over about a dozen caches. I haven't seen anyone complain about over population there.

 

As for Robins - some I've done have been memorable places which we wouldn't have known about unless geocaching.

 

Caesars Camp - recommend to anyone. By Bracknall lookout centre - which I'd been to the swimming pool but not the rest. Great place for a day - take your bike.

 

Dinton Pastures - Again nice place - feed the geese & ducks, playground etc.

 

I was looking forward to Windsor Great park, Donnington Castle etc.

 

I'll admit I never bothered with the one at his house, I thought that a little too personal, but as previously mentioned we hit Bracknall with a view of doing several in a day but only managed 3 because of the quality of sites.

 

So I know I've come to this a little too late, and possibly Robins been a little insensitive placing more caches but in his defence I haven't found anything to do with his GPSS site in his new ones yet apart from his e-mail address on the front page of the log and the cache details.

 

I'd still like to see them reinstated please, even if it means thinning out some of the less attractive ones.

 

P.S. Is there any rules about how far apart. I was thinking about placing two in Swindon, one in a country park near M4 Junc 15, one in a country park near Junc 16 (easy access, nice places etc). You could even sample the delights of the Outlet Village shopping (Wiltshires top tourist attraction would you believe - groan!).

 

Cheers