+Team Paradise Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 I've just been reading the NZ forum... It's Deja Vu but without the pain ! Basically it appears that the NZ Dept of Conservation (who manage ALL New Zealand public land) got wind of geocaching and posted to the forum asking for a meeting. One was held and the DOC's requirements were outlined, which included the NZ geocachers forming a 'society' as one of the conditions. This was done with a minimum of fuss and the NZ geocachers got their dispensation to allow caching on DOC managed land (which the DOC has previously deemed to be illegal under NZ law). A few lessons to be learned from the way our antipodean counterparts managed the process, maybe ? Steve [This message was edited by Team Paradise on May 15, 2003 at 04:54 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+BigNick Posted May 14, 2003 Share Posted May 14, 2003 quote:This was done with a minimum of fuss and the NZ geocachers got their dispensation to allow caching on DOC managed land (which the DOC has previously deemed to be illegal under NZ law). It is actually still in the process of being finalised (we are waiting some more information from DOC's lawyers) but yes it has not been as painful as what is happening over there. A couple of us have been following the various threads in the UK forums, and it has proved to be food for thought, hopefully we have learnt some things from your problems, and won't encounter the same things by the time the NZ society has been finalised. Cheers Nick. Quote Link to comment
+Richard & Beth Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 It seems to me that the big difference with New Zealand is in the order things happened. Over there I understand that the DOC came onto the forums and pretty well gave New Zealand cachers an ultimatum - we regard caching as illegal unless you do x, y and z, one of those items being forming a society. Over here the UK admins became aware of the potential problem and to some extent were pre-empting the need for a society, before a national organisation raised the issue. As a result it gave a lot of opportunity for people to disagree on the basis that there wasn't currently a problem in their area, that it was a local Hampshire issue and so on. I believe that the reason New Zealand was comparitively painless was because the majority of people could see that there wasn't really much option. Richard Quote Link to comment
L8 Ed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Richard & Beth: I believe that the reason New Zealand was comparitively painless was because the majority of people could see that there wasn't really much option. Richard I agree the the added "and" perhaps criticisms were taken as constructive, given serious thought and not personal attacks I wish it were as easy to get rid of admin in real life. Just how long do you think M Thatcher would have lasted. Six weeks? But then nothing would get done. Quote Link to comment
+rediguana Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 As one of the Kiwi's involved, I'd like to clarify a few points on the order of things, and how it has panned out to date. We had discussed approaching the Department of Conservation possibly a year before they approached us in the geocaching forums. We decided not to do anything until we needed to. DOC did not so much make an ultimatum, but started a dialog, and I have now had two meetings in Wellington with their representative. Their first position on geocaching on their land was forceful for reasons I cannot repeat. Suffice to say, as discussions continued, they came to realise our position and the issues, and have become much more flexible as they have been educated on geocaching and other GPS activities, and are happy with the way things are progressing. No, we have not yet set up the society, but that is the roadmap that we are taking and they are supportive of this approach. The key is that we will only represent the cachers that belong to the society, not all geocachers in New Zealand. And I wouldn't say that this is the only option that has been explored, but it seemed to be the most popular. Consideration was given to getting a commercial concession, or driving the activity underground as well. After much discussion with DOC and amongst interested Kiwi cachers, we decided that the Society was the best route. So the plan from here is three-fold. 1. Create a Society that represents its geocaching members and can form a relationship with DOC. We can't speak for cachers who aren't members, and DOC recognises this. They get the benefit in that it eases managing the relationshop between the two groups. 2. We are going to create a geocaching code of practive, or best practive guide, that incorporates guidelines worked out between DOC and the Society. Including basics such as safety in the outdoors. 3. We will form a Memorandum of Understanding which will formalise the relationship between our society of geocachers and DOC. So, we weren't forced directly to this position, but it is where we agreed to end up, and the path we are taking. There is still much work to be done, and I imagine it will take most of this year to complete, certainly the next 4-6 months. If you want more information, feel free to check out our forums at http://gps.org.nz Cheers Gav Quote Link to comment
+Team Paradise Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 Ahhh, so what we need to get things 'back to normal' is for an officer of DEFRA or the Environment Agency to post on here with an ultimatum. If that's all it takes, anyone know one ?... Perhaps the good folks at HCC do. You'd have thought that folks would see that pre-empting was a good thing, as that's what will probably happen eventually. Good luck with your continuing negotiations BigNick... The NZ way of life obviously goes a long way to stemming the radical factions (probably all that space per person and nice weather helps too...) Steve [This message was edited by Team Paradise on May 15, 2003 at 04:52 AM.] Quote Link to comment
+Flackadder Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 And people in the UK could start to agree and organise....'anything'??!! Not a chance. I would love for all this to work out. We just do not work the same. We just have to argue with anything it seems. Bob.... http://www.bobh.co.uk Quote Link to comment
+Richard & Beth Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Thanks for taking the trouble to come over here and tell us what is happening in New Zealand. What is the situation for cachers who do not wish to join the society. Are they allowed to place caches on DOC land? Richard Quote Link to comment
+Team Paradise Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 Many thanks for the clarification Rediguana. As all of our Admins have resigned and nobody (understandably) wants to take up the position, any chance you shipping us a few Kiwis to take over and smooth things out (And no, that wasn't a dig at our ex-Admins!) Can't we just reword the remit of GAGB so that it only supports the interests of it's members and get the whole thing back on track again ? It seems to have worked in NZ, complete with the blessing of their DOC.... Hey, it might even keep our radicals happy! Steve If you can see the 'light at the end of the tunnel', it's usually a train coming ! Quote Link to comment
+rediguana Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Richard & Beth:What is the situation for cachers who do not wish to join the society. Are they allowed to place caches on DOC land? Well there is nothing formal or certain at this stage, but my take would be that independent cachers would have to approach DOC for permission to place caches on DOC land. Otherwise they would likely be removed. Because our society would have the Memorandum of Understanding in place, society members would be able to place caches on DOC land - with exceptions for certain places - as we will have mechanisms in place to assist DOC to manage the caches. Our relationship with DOC however would not be a monopoly, any other group of cachers could organise and go through a similar process to form their own relationship with DOC with their own conditions. I don't expect that DOC will work with individual cachers, they have to be organised. Individuals may not like this, but it entirely understandable from DOC's perspective. What organisation wants to deal with hundreds of individuals, when they can deal with a handful of organised groups... Cheers Gav Quote Link to comment
+Omally Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by rediguana:Individuals may not like this, but it entirely understandable from DOC's perspective. What organisation wants to deal with hundreds of individuals, when they can deal with a handful of organised groups... Cheers Gav Hooray for common sense! It would be a good idea for us to keep an eye on your progress with the DOC and apply your principles up here. Hopefully by setting a good example to us whinging poms we might actually get somewhere one day! Quote Link to comment
L8 Ed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 This made me think. How many UK cachers read this forum.? Are the UK Cachers of this forum thinking too big here. Around 40 people post. On the Poll questions around 50 respond. The views some posts get are in the 100s sometimes 1000s for very heated posts. Now the question is this do non Cachers come on this board for a laugh at the agro.?. Because its like a real life soap. We had a NZ casher drop in who was reading the UK posts. Thanks for the input. An American casher to swat a fly with a nasty name. Thanks again. The Mod Ants still read this board. (They think that UK Geocaching is about to implode as a result of this agro.) And I suspect many many more. So with many more casual observers what have we got. 50 genuine cachers perhaps. And a storm in a teacup all be a it hurricane force. Quote Link to comment
+DerekReed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:This made me think. How many UK cachers read this forum.? I started reading the forum last weekend, and am beginning to wonder if I'm in the wrong hobby. Quote Link to comment
+Meriadoc Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 The experience of creating a Society in New Zealand sounds reasonably painless. However it should be remembered that New Zealand has a population of 4 Million, while the UK's approaches 60 Million. Setting up any national society in Britain, will be like an exercise in herding cats. Should we geocachers that are based in Scotland need to create a Society, I am sure our experience would be as painless as that of those in New Zealand. However we don't need a society (Association) imposed on us, by our "argumentative" English neighbours. Quote Link to comment
+DerekReed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Meriadoc:However we don't need a society (Association) imposed on us, by our "argumentative" English neighbours. Time to cue a bit more MontyPythonesque 'Yes you do, No we don't' behaviour... ?? Quote Link to comment
+The Hungry Caterpillars Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Hurray-a way forward after all the bad feeling that has been caused on the different fora.To Tim and June and the other moderators when thhe going gets tough the tough get going Quote Link to comment
Mudplugger Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I don't think we need worry about anything being imposed on anyone from anywhere. After the last couple of days it's unlikely anyone would even bring up the subject of, or agree to become involved in a proposed association. If however a single region did decide to set up an association locally ......and it was shown to be effective ..... it could be used as a model for others to follow. Wherever they are. Quote Link to comment
+Team Paradise Posted May 15, 2003 Author Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Meriadoc:However we don't need a society (Association) imposed on us, by our "argumentative" English neighbours. Due to the lack of moderators... Already been 'done to death' elsewhere... Slapped wrist Meriadoc Quote Link to comment
+The Good Shepherds Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:After the last couple of days it's unlikely anyone would even bring up the subject of, or agree to become involved in a proposed association. On the contrary, I'd still be quite happy to be a member of / involved with an association, and I'd guess a lot of other people still would be too ...but we've pretty much reached a stalemate here on the forums with various people adopting entrenched positions.. so it's time for the people who want an association to just wander off and do it, and for the people who don't want an association to sit around and, urm, not do it. Continuing to argue the toss here on the forums is pretty pointless, and in this respect, it is truely time to move on. Quote Link to comment
+Meriadoc Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Mudplugger wrote: If however a single region did decide to set up an association locally ......and it was shown to be effective ..... it could be used as a model for others to follow. Wherever they are. Modelling a Scottish society on that of another (successful) region’s would certainly be the correct thing to do. However having a society imposed or having a society dominated by people from another regionally distinct area would not be good. I think any future plans on creating societies to support geocaching should begin from the grass roots and concentrate on support at the regional level. Once a successful number of regional support organisations exist then, a national council could be created. Quote Link to comment
+jeremyp Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DerekReed: quote:Originally posted by L8 Ed:This made me think. How many UK cachers read this forum.? I started reading the forum last weekend, and am beginning to wonder if I'm in the wrong hobby. Most geocachers go about their hobby without ever going near the forums. Actually, I think more of them would read the forums if they realised how exciting they are ------- jeremyp The second ten million caches were the worst too. http://www.gagb.org.uk Quote Link to comment
+Lance Ambu Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:Actually, I think more of them would read the forums if they realised how exciting they are ------- jeremyp Where's that guy who said he was leaving the forums 'cos the topics were boring and everyone agreed with everyone else in a sheep like fashion. Found it! it was here Lance It's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Quote Link to comment
+DerekReed Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 quote:Originally posted by jeremyp:Most geocachers go about their hobby without ever going near the forums. Actually, I think more of them would read the forums if they realised how exciting they are If I'd known I was walking into a firestorm, I'd have stayed out of it completely. As it is, I now know that T&J aren't happy bunnies, and after seeing the effort that they've expended, I'm quite sad that they've jacked it in. DerekReed Will cache for food. Quote Link to comment
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