Geocache was placed on private property

[JustPassingThrough1]

Hello. This geocache https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GCAFA4_rosita-animal-cache was placed on private property , and the owner does not wish to have it there. The member who started the geocache has not logged in since 2020. Strangers have been wandering through the property, so we need to get this geocache removed!

 

Thank you.

[+peter-tvm]

Since you have created an account you write a new log, exactly as the one you did on the cache.

 

To the right under the field where the text is written you have this text:

- Report a problem

Click on it and choose:

- Cache should be archived

 

This alerts the reviewers, those who review and publish caches, in the area that will disabled the cache and give the owner 30 days to archive the cache themself.

 

If no action is done after 30 days a reviewer will archive the listing 

 

The physical cache will still be left and some cachers will actively search for archived caches with the container left. So the landowner can remove the container anytime, if it's place on private property without permission.

Edited May 30, 2023 by peter-tvm
Spelling

[+TeamRabbitRun]

 

Actually, a little more complexity:

Since there's a landowner whom you know doesn't want it there, I'd emphasize that point in your log and the reviewer may decide to take action earlier.

Groundspeak is very responsive to landowner issues. If it's not wanted and causes unwelcome visitors (legally called 'trespassers') it'll most likely get action faster than a 1/1 FTF on Main Street!

You could volunteer to go clear it from the land at the request of the reviewer, but that gets into all sorts of issues about physical cache ownership.

Either way, you could also act as an ambassador for the hobby by letting the landowner know when it's gone, so they're not left with a bad impression of our little band of whackos.

Respect for the land and its managers!
 

[+Vicious Cycle]

1 hour ago, TeamRabbitRun said:

 

Actually, a little more complexity:

Since there's a landowner whom you know doesn't want it there, I'd emphasize that point in your log and the reviewer may decide to take action earlier.

Groundspeak is very responsive to landowner issues. If it's not wanted and causes unwelcome visitors (legally called 'trespassers') it'll most likely get action faster than a 1/1 FTF on Main Street!

You could volunteer to go clear it from the land at the request of the reviewer, but that gets into all sorts of issues about physical cache ownership.

Either way, you could also act as an ambassador for the hobby by letting the landowner know when it's gone, so they're not left with a bad impression of our little band of whackos.

Respect for the land and its managers!
 

@TeamRabbitRun, I believe you've got the best of intentions, but I don't think anyone should ever remove a Geocache that doesn't belong to them. And I also believe it would be a bad idea to act as a mediary on behalf of Groundspeak by contacting the land owner. This is not the first time something like this has happened. GeocachingHQ has policies in place for handling this exact situation. My suggestion would be report it to the volunteer reviewer (which has already been done) and then let them handle it.

[JustPassingThrough1]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I am good friends with the landowner. The geocache was originally placed by someone who probably assumed that the land was public for some reason. There is a "park" nearby, but that is actually also private land. She pointed out the geocache to me, but is unfamiliar with geocaching, so I am helping her out by finding it online and trying to get it decommissioned/archived. I think she has already removed the cache, and has mentioned posting no trespassing signs. I just don;t want anybody to waste their time looking for it or scaring her by wandering through her yard anymore.

 

I will take the advice given in some of these posts.

 

Thanks again!

[+TeamRabbitRun]

1 hour ago, Vicious Cycle said:

@TeamRabbitRun, I believe you've got the best of intentions, but I don't think anyone should ever remove a Geocache that doesn't belong to them. And I also believe it would be a bad idea to act as a mediary on behalf of Groundspeak by contacting the land owner. This is not the first time something like this has happened. GeocachingHQ has policies in place for handling this exact situation. My suggestion would be report it to the volunteer reviewer (which has already been done) and then let them handle it.

 

I can't argue with that. My comment was based on the fact that the OP already had a relationship with the landowner. 

I've written before about not touching others' caches.

[+TriciaG]

I see someone has already posted a Needs Archived log on it. If action isn't taken in a day or two, you or the landowner can email HQ as per this Help Center article:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=93&pgid=431

 

EDIT to add: on the form, choose 11. Legal Inquiries, then "Report a geocache on private property".

1. Report a geocache

 

1.1. Report a geocache

1.1. Report a geocache

If a geocache has been found placed in an unsuitable location, please let us know.

• If you are law enforcement, call us at 206 971-0544.
• If you are a private citizen or business owner, email us.

Include information to identify the geocache

1. Geocache name.
2. GC code (GCXXXX).
3. Legible photo of the most recent logbook entries.
4. Nearest address or coordinates.

Find the coordinates of a location

1. Locate the area of the geocache on Google Maps.
2. Right-click the location on the map.
3. Select What’s here?
4. At the bottom, you’ll see a card with the coordinates.

Tip: The more information you can provide, the better.

Edited May 30, 2023 by TriciaG

[JustPassingThrough1]

This is a very lengthy and complicated process for a geocache which is located on private property of a person whom does not wish to be involved. Lots of communication and back and forth. We are trying to be nice and understanding here, but it may get to calling the sheriff and trespassing people, because the landowner does NOT WANT STRANGERS WANDERING THROUGH THE YARD AND AROUND THE HOUSE. I just don't understand how placing an old ammo can of plastic trinkets on someone else's property somehow confers any rights to the property to geocachers. Just delete the cache from the website. I don't want to waste any more time on this. There are even pictures in the finders log of strangers trespassing and sitting around the fire pit in the yard!!

 

ADMINS, DELETE THE LISTING ASAP.

[Keystone]

A site volunteer entered a "Needs Archived" log on this cache 5/30.  The local Community Volunteer Reviewer will see this log the next time they visit their queue of pending requests.

 

Please note, cache pages are not "deleted" but they are "archived" so they will not show up in cache searches.

[+Team Canary]

1 hour ago, Keystone said:

A site volunteer entered a "Needs Archived" log on this cache 5/30.  The local Community Volunteer Reviewer will see this log the next time they visit their queue of pending requests.

 

Please note, cache pages are not "deleted" but they are "archived" so they will not show up in cache searches.

 

Surely based on the angst caused, the Forum Moderators could get this dealt with ASAP. Sure seems like this is taking longer than it needs to.

[+GeoTrekker26]

Gee, mister property owner, we are sorry we violated your property rights but you need to understand that we have internal practices that don’t allow us to help you for at least thirty days. Should you need any additional information please use the terms that we use. We don’t delete caches because we want to maintain a record of illegal caches along with our other cashes, so please use the term “archive.”  BTW, I have seen caches retracted in the past. 

 

What the hell happened to common sense?

[+NanCycle]

This cache was placed in 2002, so this situation has been continuing for a long time.  Were reviewers not checking for private property in 2002?  Are the current owners the same as the owners in 2002?  Reading through the old logs, I don’t see anything that caused anyone any concern that they were on private property, no mention of fences, signs or a nearby residence. I found the cache in 2015 and also had no Idea of it being private property—no fence, sign or residence; as mentioned in my caching companion’s log, we sat at the nearby picnic table to eat our lunch. If there had been any indication that it was private property, we would have just left. 

[JustPassingThrough1]

1 hour ago, GeoTrekker26 said:

Gee, mister property owner, we are sorry we violated your property rights but you need to understand that we have internal practices that don’t allow us to help you for at least thirty days. Should you need any additional information please use the terms that we use. We don’t delete caches because we want to maintain a record of illegal caches along with our other cashes, so please use the term “archive.”  BTW, I have seen caches retracted in the past. 

 

What the hell happened to common sense?

 

 

The geocache is gone, and strangers will be trespassed by the sheriff. The responsibility is on YOU to verify that you are placing caches on public land.  The publicly accessible county assessor website has always clearly indicated that the geocache was placed on private property. The owner did not know it was there because IT WAS HIDDEN WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

 

You need to make sure that you are placing caches on Forest Service or BLM land, etc. Your response is snotty and uncalled for. Do you want strangers wandering around your mom's house?

 

Now I am thoroughly irritated by the entire situation. It's good to know that some geocaching enthusiasts feel entitled to trespass because someone put a box full of plastic animal toys on somebody's private property without checking or doing any due diligence whatsoever. Anyway, the cache is gone and no more strangers trespassing. That is done. I will put out the word tomorrow with all of the neighbors, and we will all keep an eye on the place for our friend. If I see anybody I will not ask them to leave, I will call law enforcement and let them handle it.

 

30 days. Lol. Take care of yourself Mr. No Property Owner!

[+Hügh]

5 minutes ago, JustPassingThrough1 said:

Your response is snotty and uncalled for.

 

GeoTrekker26 was being sarcastic, poking fun at (I assume) Keystone's—who is a Forum Moderator and Reviewer—post, which said:

 

Quote

A site volunteer entered a "Needs Archived" log on this cache 5/30.  The local Community Volunteer Reviewer will see this log the next time [potentially up to 30 days] they visit their queue of pending requests.

 

Please note, cache pages are not "deleted" but they are "archived" so they will not show up in cache searches.

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Hügh

[JustPassingThrough1]

1 hour ago, NanCycle said:

This cache was placed in 2002, so this situation has been continuing for a long time.  Were reviewers not checking for private property in 2002?  Are the current owners the same as the owners in 2002?  Reading through the old logs, I don’t see anything that caused anyone any concern that they were on private property, no mention of fences, signs or a nearby residence. I found the cache in 2015 and also had no Idea of it being private property—no fence, sign or residence; as mentioned in my caching companion’s log, we sat at the nearby picnic table to eat our lunch. If there had been any indication that it was private property, we would have just left. 

 

It's ALL private property in the vicinity of the cache location. Nobody knew what was going on because the geocache was HIDDEN without telling the land owner. They do not spend their free time picking through the ruins for hidden boxes of animal toys. Did you see any Forest Service or BLM signage? Who did you assume owned the property? The park is owned by the property owners association, again, private property. We don't have to put signs everywhere indicating who owns what, you need to know where you are going instead of assuming everything is a free for all. The law regarding fences applies to livestock only around here. We don't have to fence out people, you just don't go where you don't have permission.Do you have private property signs around your yard? You probably don't, does that mean I can wander in whenever I want and hang out?

 

The fact that you "  don’t see anything that caused anyone any concern that they were on private property" is very telling. The entire place is obviously private property. There are no goods or services, and houses scattered everywhere.

 

When you are wrong you say you are sorry and fix the problem you created. It is wrong to double down and piss off the people you have trespassed against.

[+GeoTrekker26]

I’m glad someone was able to recognize sarcasm. Thanks Hügh!

[JustPassingThrough1]

18 hours ago, GeoTrekker26 said:

I’m glad someone was able to recognize sarcasm. Thanks Hügh!

 

It's hard to recognize sarcasm on internet posts, so I apologize to you for not picking up on that. On that note, you did a great job of being over the top, and satirizing the state of affairs.

 

Here is the current situation: now I have e-mails from Geocaching.com asking me to verify that I am the landowner before they will move to the next step, lol. It is amazing that Geocaching.com would have this multi day multi step process for possibly removing their crap from private property. Let the lesson be learned now for property owners: never let geocachers or geocaching.com anywhere near your stuff. You will have strangers hanging out in your yard and wandering around, and that is [too bad] for the person who owns the land and lives there, because a geocacher hid a little box with a notebook and some cheap toys there.

 

If anyone winds up getting busted and charged with trespass/ agricultural trespass, I hope they file suit against this website for failing to do any due diligence before placing the cache. It's neat, because if you look at my first posts and log entry I said something to the effect of " We're glad people had some fun and wish them the best of luck in searching for other geocaches". Now I am disgusted by this website and the hobby.

 

Anyway, for any potential searchers who might read this- I am not going through any more process with geocaching.com. I don't need to do anything more. They can keep the geocache listing up, and people looking for the animal toys will be trespassed and charged. The cache is not there anyway- that went into the trash.

 

This is a tight knit rural community, and the landowner getting screwed by geocaching.com is a beloved member of the community. It's a real shame that geocaching.com is so weird about it.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Keystone
potty language edited by moderator

[+Max and 99]

Archived.

[+cerberus1]

Odd that no notices were mentioned for over twenty years...

We've been to a few areas that turned out to be private.  Most turned out to be vacationing association members, and "thought it'd be okay".

Maybe "too many new houses around with inquisitive muggles" in '06 started it finally being noticed, as "Have done a lot of running around in these hills over the last 40 years or so..." might imply many non cachers played there .

[+niraD]

42 minutes ago, JustPassingThrough1 said:

It is amazing that Geocaching.com would have this multi day multi step process for possibly removing their crap from private property.

For what it's worth, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how geocaching works. (It's a common misunderstanding.)

 

The geocache found (and removed) by the property owner was not placed by the geocaching.com site. It is not "their crap" to remove. The geocaching.com site is just a listing service.

 

The geocache found (and removed) by the property owner was placed more than 20 years ago by jmariner, who confirmed "adequate permission" at that time. It is therefore jmariner's "crap" to remove.

 

We now return to the regularly scheduled programming, already in progress...

[+thebruce0]

And to echo the point - the container does not belong to geocaching.com. The container belongs to the owner. It would be, technically, illegal for the listing service to claim they own the item. At best they are a middleman between the property owner and the container owner. Given the state of the hobby, it would be just as wrong to assume that a random individual contacting the website about a container and ranting and raving about it being on private property actually IS the property owner, and not someone with a personal vendetta against the container owner. Thus, the process for adequately proving you are the property owner. If there is enough drama, then of course all it takes is an archival of the listing, but that will not stop people from potentially doing what the property owner doesn't want them to do. That is not the realm of the website. That is the realm of the container owner who - assuming everything is accurate - trespassed in the first place.

 

But as mentioned, it's been there over 20 years and an issue has just been raised. Sometimes properties change hands. Sometimes permissions are forgotten. Sometimes decisions change. The most effective way for a property owner to take the first step is to understand what geocaching is, first, and then if still desired, contact admin at geocaching.com and/or the owner of the listing, and respectfully demonstrate legal ownership of the property and the request that the listing be removed. 

 

Beyond that, business of physical items on property and access to property is entirely between the property owner and the container owner.

[+barefootjeff]

53 minutes ago, thebruce0 said:

Given the state of the hobby, it would be just as wrong to assume that a random individual contacting the website about a container and ranting and raving about it being on private property actually IS the property owner, and not someone with a personal vendetta against the container owner. Thus, the process for adequately proving you are the property owner.

 

Yes. A few years back I was wandering around in a section of what I thought was national park (based on the National Park sign at the entrance and all the maps that showed it as such, including the park's own map), when I was accosted by a woman with several large baying dogs in her car who accused me of tresspassing on her land. I said I thought I was in the national park and asked her where her property boundary was and she pointed to a nearby bridge on the service road and said "the other side of that", which was different to her original claim. I told her I hadn't crossed the bridge and didn't intend doing so, and that was enough for her to leave me alone and not set her dogs onto me, but afterwards I visited the national park's office and was told her property boundary was actually another kilometre or so along that road. In the end I didn't proceed with the cache as I didn't want others to go through the same thing I did. It's certainly not unheard of for people to claim public land as their own even when it isn't and the public have every right to be there.

 

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

Sometimes properties change hands. Sometimes permissions are forgotten. Sometimes decisions change.

 

Also sometimes public land gets sold off to private parties (our local council, needing to boost their coffers, have been doing a lot of that lately). I had a cache that was along a public road corridor that had been preserved for a road that had never been built. At the time, all the zoning maps showed it as public land and it was actually a popular walking track, but then a "Private Property Keep Out" sign appeared at one end and land sale signs at the other. In all likelihood, the council decided that, since the road was never going to be built, they'd sell the corridor to the adjoining landholders, so I archived and removed the cache while I still could.

 

I don't know what it's like in the USA, but here in Australia it can be difficult at times to determine whether undeveloped bushland is public or private. The green areas on various online maps, which are supposed to indicate public land, are sometimes wrong, for example this area that's shown in darker green (parkland) as opposed to the lighter green for the adjoining national park to the south and grey for private land. The map even shows a walking track through there to the road on the northern side:

 

 

In fact most of it is private land, which I only discovered when I came across a real estate advertisement offering it for sale. There are no fences, signs or anything on the trail to indicate where the national park ends and the private land starts, it's just that if you happen to walk past that line on the map (or worse, put a cache in there), you're trespassing.

[+niraD]

5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

It's certainly not unheard of for people to claim public land as their own even when it isn't and the public have every right to be there.

Yep. I've seen cases like that too. In some cases, caches were archived because the COs didn't want seekers to be harrassed, even though the caches were on public land with a geocaching policy that allowed them to be there.

 

5 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

Also sometimes public land gets sold off to private parties (our local council, needing to boost their coffers, have been doing a lot of that lately). I had a cache that was along a public road corridor that had been preserved for a road that had never been built. At the time, all the zoning maps showed it as public land and it was actually a popular walking track, but then a "Private Property Keep Out" sign appeared at one end and land sale signs at the other. In all likelihood, the council decided that, since the road was never going to be built, they'd sell the corridor to the adjoining landholders, so I archived and removed the cache while I still could.

I've seen the opposite situation, where private land was donated to a public open space district. The district removed all the "private property" and "no trespassing" signs they could, but knew they had probably missed some. They actually asked geocachers to report the GPS coordinates of any remaining signs they discovered.

 

There's also a location where a county park and an open space (part of the same public open space district) are next to each other, and have the same name. It's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins without looking at a current map. Fortunately, both the county park system and the open space district have geocaching policies that permit geocaches, but the details of the policies vary a bit. It's conceivable (albeit unlikely) that someone might comply with the guidelines for the wrong part of the park/open space, and not comply with the part where the geocache is actually located.

[+Viajero Perdido]

12 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The green areas on various online maps, which are supposed to indicate public land

 

Not necessarily.  It often means forest.

 

Your example looks like the Groundspeak map, which uses OpenStreetMap data, and OSM doesn't have much provision for indicating public vs private.  There is a family of tags in the database like access=private, which mappers sometimes use, but which (ahem) the Groundspeak map has never shown* though it would be useful.

 

I'm not sure what that shade of darker green in your example means on the Groundspeak maps (did they ever publish a key?), but I think it means forest, and the lighter shade means park or protected area, overriding forest.  (EDIT: confirmed, it just means forest:  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/790034144#map=15/-33.5098/151.3685)

 

(* Was this a lawyer's idea?)

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Viajero Perdido

[+barefootjeff]

5 hours ago, Viajero Perdido said:

EDIT: confirmed, it just means forest:  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/790034144#map=15/-33.5098/151.3685)

 

That's confusing, then, as the same shade of green is used for suburban sports fields where there generally aren't any trees at all. Locally, that green colouring seems to mostly coincide with public reserves, with privately owned forested land coloured grey, which is why I assumed that's what it was meant to indicate.

[+NanCycle]

On 5/31/2023 at 9:47 PM, JustPassingThrough1 said:

 

The entire place is obviously private property.

Well, I don't know how obvious it is now, (and I won't be going back to check it out) but when I was there in 2015 it was not obvious at all.  There was nothing about the area to indicate that it was private property.

 

And I tried to look it up on the county website and couldn't get any information without a subscription.

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 5/31/2023 at 11:47 PM, JustPassingThrough1 said:

The park is owned by the property owners association, again, private property.

 

Here in Florida there are a lot of neighborhood parks that I suppose are owned by the HOA/POA. Very few of them have warning signs about trespassing, private property, or "residents only."

 

Considering this geocache had been placed 20 years ago it's quite possible the person who places it was a resident and maybe even got permission from someone in the POA, but now they and whomever gave them permission are no longer around. Also, back then very few local governments had free online property appraiser maps to make it easy for a Reviewer to verify the property ownership.

 

Groundspeak is pretty responsive to property owner complaints. However, in the 20 years nobody complained about this one.

 

The OP posted a Found log on 5/28, which wouldn't bring the cache to the attention of anyone who could do anything about it (since the CO appears inactive). It was only after someone saw this thread that a NRA was logged, the day after a busy national holiday weekend. It was archived with 48 hours of the NRA log.

 

I do wonder if geocaches ever get "swatted" by someone who isn't really the property owner.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by JL_HSTRE