Geocache Condition Report (free t-shirt)

[+barefootjeff]

1 minute ago, L0ne.R said:

 

I think there needs to be an expiration date to refresh the game and get rid of the caches that are no longer being monitored by cache owners that never plan to maintain.  IMO you are very conscientious rarity when it comes to ownership and maintenance. Are there any other cache owners in your area maintain caches as well as you do?

 

 

I haven't done much cache maintenance as most of my hides have never needed any. Of my 50 active hides, only 18 have ever needed maintenance and, of those, most were issues arising early in life when my choice of container turned out to be unsuitable for the location (typically, what I thought was a dry hiding place turned into an underground watercourse in heavy rain). With those, I switched to a more suitable container (or moved it slightly) and haven't had any trouble since. The rest are unchanged since the day I placed them, still the original container with its original lookbook and all snug and dry. The hiding places I've chosen are generally protected from the elements, the containers I've chosen are meant to be long-lasting and the logbooks are big enough to easily cope with the number of finders they're likely to get.

 

As for other COs, well sadly I'm now the most prolific hider in my region, but most of the other seasoned hiders have used similar containers and hiding places to mine that don't need intensive maintenance. Those who are still active are generally pretty responsive to reports of problems when they arise, but there aren't many of us now. Micros are rare here, making up just 23% of hides and well outnumbered by smalls (43%) and regulars (27%). There was an active CO close to here but he stopped caching at around the time I started, though it seems he still monitors his emails and will pop out of the woodwork to archive any of his remaining hides that go missing or fall into disrepair. One of his caches, GC44X7B, is close to home and was one of the first I found, so out of interest I just went up there to see what it looks like now. Not much has changed in the decade since my find, apart from there being some more names in the logbook. The container, a Sistema, is sound, its contents dry and the original 96 page logbook is still only about a third full. Not surprising, as the cache is hidden under a rock ledge where it's well protected from the elements.

 

 

This isn't a rare exception, it's pretty typical of the bushland caches around here. We're fortunate to have all the ancient eroded sandstone ridges that offer great protected hiding places for caches, a generally cache-friendly climate and the good range of the New Zealand made Sistema containers that stand up well long-term as long as they're kept out of the sun.

 

The key to good quality caches isn't intensive maintenance, although that might be needed for urban micros, it's picking containers that are suitable for their hiding places. Get that right and it won't matter whether the CO does regular maintenance visits or not.

[+MNTA]

2 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

The state of caches in my area was the big reason for stopping. The other was being called a 'cache cop' a number of times for reporting caches.

 

But I'm really glad to see a couple of staff members in the Groundspeak ranks taking the issue a little more seriously.

 

Hopefully you'll change your mind one day and return. Please don't feel like you are alone. My intention of these posts is to try to improve things. I've also never shied away from filing NM & NA despite complaints. There is a lot of resistance to any change, even positive change.  Consider the pushback of cache health scores, adventure lab caches, phone vs gpsr.

 

As for me if these pictures were my first, second, or third experience I'd probably never cache again which is my motivation to cleaning up problems. I'm volunteering to help. Sounds like as you said there may be a a glimpse of change in the wind.

 

 

[+barefootjeff]

46 minutes ago, MNTA said:

I've also never shied away from filing NM & NA despite complaints.

 

I'm pretty meticulous about logging NMs and NAs on caches that are in disrepair. Out of my 142 finds this year, I've logged 4 NMs and 1 NA. Of the NMs, two were missing caches, one was flood-damaged and the other fire-damaged. Three have since been disabled by the reviewer and one then archived by the reviewer (the one I subsequently logged the NA on). The rest of the caches I've found, the other 138, were fine. Most were new caches, as I've cleared out most of the older caches close to home, but 38 were more than five years old and nearly all those were in good repair. Only 9 of those 38 older caches were micros, though, so maybe that says something.

[+MNTA]

38 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I'm pretty meticulous about logging NMs and NAs on caches that are in disrepair. Out of my 142 finds this year, I've logged 4 NMs and 1 NA. Of the NMs, two were missing caches, one was flood-damaged and the other fire-damaged. Three have since been disabled by the reviewer and one then archived by the reviewer (the one I subsequently logged the NA on). The rest of the caches I've found, the other 138, were fine. Most were new caches, as I've cleared out most of the older caches close to home, but 38 were more than five years old and nearly all those were in good repair. Only 9 of those 38 older caches were micros, though, so maybe that says something.

Love statistics wish there were more like below.

 

YTD 530 Found, 57 DNF, 31 NM/OAR, 14 NA/RAR So close to a 20% not found/problem rate. Most of the DNF & NM were on older caches but not all. 

 

Of the 31 NMs all but 12 are either archived or disabled soon to be archived.

Of the 12 still enabled. 3 were replaced by the CO (YAY 10% fix rate), 1 archived by CO due to fire damage, 1 was there I simply did not find it, 1 CO filed a OM log ignoring the problems, 6 will eventually be archived 

 

Of the 14 NAs reviewer has archived or disabled with a final warning of all caches.Reasons for filing NA

1 Clearly posted no trespassing sign ignored by previous DNFs

11 Old logs either showed problems/missing and/or ignored NM many years of ignoring logs, inactive CO

1 COs friend had posted a request for help archiving as cache was missing new CO inactive

1 previous DNF said neighbor had told them they had personally disposed of the cache on their property line and did not want cachers near their property

 

Some may think this is acting like the caching police, in reality every one archived had multiple months to fix and file an OM. But a ~10% fix rate is pretty poor. What did most of these have in common. Older caches with inactive COs, or COs that did not maintain and fix reported problems.

 

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

YTD 530 Found, 57 DNF, 31 NM/OAR, 14 NA/RAR So close to a 20% not found/problem rate. Most of the DNF & NM were on older caches but not all.

 

I didn't include my DNFs before, but so far this year I've logged 11 of them. Here's the breakdown:

• 4 were caches I simply didn't find on my first attempt but have gone back since and found them.
• 2 I couldn't find but others have since found them.
• 2 were ones where I was defeated by the terrain, one a mountain climb where we took a wrong turn and I baulked at a rock face and the other a tree climb where I didn't think the tree would support me. Both caches are fine.
• 1 was checked by the CO, confirmed to be missing and replaced.
• 1 has since been disabled by the reviewer.
• 1 hasn't had any logs since my DNF so I don't know whether there's a problem or it was just me doing a Blind Freddy.

So of the eleven, one was definitely missing (replaced by the CO), one is likely missing (disabled by the reviewer) and one still in limbo. The rest were fine, I just failed in my attempt to get my name in the logbook.

 

From my persective at least, counting DNFs is a poor measure of cache health.

Edited August 21, 2023 by barefootjeff

[+Goldenwattle]

9 hours ago, L0ne.R said:

I think there needs to be an expiration date to refresh the game and get rid of the caches that are no longer being monitored by cache owners that never plan to maintain.

We've had this suggestion before and this is the same reply. That would mean some areas would then have NO caches at all, if an old cache, which might still be in great condition, is archived just because it is old and the CO is no longer active. Not all of the world is urban with huge numbers of caches. Many more remote places might only have a hand full of caches, with long distances between each; 100kms or more is not unusual. No one is going to replace them at present, no one. And besides, lots of space left to place new ones, but that's unlikely to happen, because almost no one lives in those places. However, many people might drive through and hope for a cache to break the journey. Don't make this suggestion, just because you have plenty of caches, to deprive others of being able to find a cache in more remote areas. If you had said in urban geocache rich areas, fair enough, but you made a broad statement.

[+CAVinoGal]

13 hours ago, MNTA said:

 

YTD 530 Found, 57 DNF, 31 NM/OAR, 14 NA/RAR So close to a 20% not found/problem rate. Most of the DNF & NM were on older caches but not all. 

 

This got me interested enough to look at my stats for the year so far:

284 Finds (50 of them Ad Labs...so do they count?)

21 DNF (and a few more but one other of our group logged so I didn't repeat)

3 NM/OAR

 

Of the DNF's, over half were on my trip to the East Coast, and 3 more were out of state in Nevada.  Locally, I tend to contact the CO directly if I know him/her. and resolve it without logging a DNF.  9 of the DNF's have had no action taken by the CO or a reviewer, and my DNF is still the last log, or there may be another DNF or two after mine. In one case, the CO checked and the cache was still there, I just missed it.   6 have subsequently been found, so I simply missed it. 2 have been disabled by a reviewer and are awaiting CO action.  1 was archieved by the CO. 3 were replaced by the CO, and one of those I was able to go back and redeem my DNF.

 

It was interesting to go back to my DNF's out of state and see how many I just missed - and sometimes to see other DNF's after mine and know I'm not alone in not finding stuff!

[+CheekyBrit]

It's so heart warming that this is legit.

[+MNTA]

13 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

We've had this suggestion before and this is the same reply. That would mean some areas would then have NO caches at all, if an old cache, which might still be in great condition, is archived just because it is old and the CO is no longer active. Not all of the world is urban with huge numbers of caches. Many more remote places might only have a hand full of caches, with long distances between each; 100kms or more is not unusual. No one is going to replace them at present, no one. And besides, lots of space left to place new ones, but that's unlikely to happen, because almost no one lives in those places. However, many people might drive through and hope for a cache to break the journey. Don't make this suggestion, just because you have plenty of caches, to deprive others of being able to find a cache in more remote areas. If you had said in urban geocache rich areas, fair enough, but you made a broad statement.

The area you are talking about does not pay the bills. The game should not be run based upon fear of change.

[+MNTA]

3 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

It was interesting to go back to my DNF's out of state and see how many I just missed - and sometimes to see other DNF's after mine and know I'm not alone in not finding stuff!

 

This is one of the problems mentioned in the survey results. The chance of a negative experience for new cachers to an area is high

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

The area you are talking about does not pay the bills. The game should not be run based upon fear of change.

It does matter actually, as MANY geocachers travel, at least here in Australia. I personally have been out to remote areas several times. Besides, please explain why the few caches in remote places you are so itching to archive. Why does their existence matter that much to you, that you want them gone, never to be replaced?

 

On your comment, all the non premier members who have been geocachers for awhile without buying a membership, should have their accounts deleted too. They don't pay the bill either. In fact, they are more a drain than caches in remote areas, which assist keeping paying members interested when travelling. (That's one of the reasons I have argued that virtual caches should be given to those who can place them in more remote areas, where there are none or few caches, as it expands the game and helps keep geocachers interested enough to remain in the game and spend on membership. They know that wherever they travel, they are likely to still be able to log a cache. I do most of my geocaching when travelling, and I'm not alone with this.)

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

The area you are talking about does not pay the bills. The game should not be run based upon fear of change.

 

My region isn't as remote as the ones Goldenwattle mentioned, being only 40km from the Sydney CBD (though separated by water), but caches are pretty sparse here with just 497 spread across 1681 square kilometres of coastline and hinterland. Over 75 percent of them are more than 5 years old and, with archivals (owner and reviewer) outnumbering new caches by a good margin these days, that percentage is only going to rise. Most of the caches, old and new, get few finds now, so I doubt the advertising revenue from views on our cache pages is paying many bills.

 

Archiving old caches simply because they're old doesn't refresh the game board here, it just creates more empty space on the map. Before long there won't be any caches here so then I guess everyone will be happy.

[+barefootjeff]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

6 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

It was interesting to go back to my DNF's out of state and see how many I just missed - and sometimes to see other DNF's after mine and know I'm not alone in not finding stuff!

This is one of the problems mentioned in the survey results. The chance of a negative experience for new cachers to an area is high

 

Are DNFs always a negative experience? Of my eleven DNFs this year, eight weren't due to any problem with the cache, just my inability to complete the find on my first attempt. Sure, it was a little disappointing at the time, but it's also disappointing when the football team I follow loses a game. Life's like that. The really memorable caches are the ones that pose a challenge to the finder, be that through the nature of the hide or access to it, and with any challenge comes a risk of failure otherwise it wouldn't be a challenge. For me, the joy of finally getting my name in the log of a cache I'd previously DNFed far outweighs the disappointment I felt the first time round.

 

One of my recent hides, a D2/T4 traditional (GCABG77), is a pretty challenging cache. For someone just using the app and following the arrow from the road without looking at the description, D/T rating or attributes, it's likely to end in a DNF when they don't find anything on the rock shelf above the cave where the cache is. Getting into that cave is also pretty challenging, as it involves crawling along an exposed ledge above a four or five metre vertical drop, so it's not for everyone and I fully expect it to get some DNFs from those who baulk at the climb. There will probably also be some who take a look and walk away without logging anything. Negative experiences galore, most likely, but the seven cachers who've found it have all enjoyed the challenge and given it FPs.

Edited August 22, 2023 by barefootjeff

[+Goldenwattle]

36 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

The really memorable caches are the ones that pose a challenge to the finder

I agree, and what constitutes (good) "memorable caches" varies from person to person. Some of the most memorable caches (for good reasons) for me have been long distance multicaches. My most memorable FTF was for a cache Canberra to Darwin. I have completed several other long distant caches too, and have some others started. Some have taken years to complete, which makes it even more special when I finally get to sign the log. The Canberra to Darwin Multi I drove straight there, although over some weeks as I explored on the way and stopped to find other geocachers. All the others have taken several trips, often just when I am in the area, I find a few more WPs.

 

Also memorable were the three ALs I completed from my hotel room, without getting off the chair, but memorable for the banality of them, not for the same satisfaction of completing a long distance multicache. An AL could be that too, but would be restricted to where there is a mobile phone tower.

[+barefootjeff]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:05 PM, L0ne.R said:

Here are the last few caches that I found before I stopped bothering to spend my time and money geocaching:

 

Just a crushed painted juice bottle that was repeated logged as a found with no Needs Maintenance log.

 

Tabs broken off this so that the lid just rested on on the container. Found It logs reported it as 'wet' for over a year but no NM logs.

 

Found It logs reported it as broken into pieces but no NM log.

 

The state of caches in my area was the big reason for stopping. The other was being called a 'cache cop' a number of times for reporting caches.

 

But I'm really glad to see a couple of staff members in the Groundspeak ranks taking the issue a little more seriously.

 

What I see here isn't so much a lack of maintenance as a poor choice of container to begin with. If you really want to fix the problem, you need to stop hiders from using containers that aren't fit for purpose.

[+MNTA]

28 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

What I see here isn't so much a lack of maintenance as a poor choice of container to begin with. If you really want to fix the problem, you need to stop hiders from using containers that aren't fit for purpose.

No container here unless they are indoors lasts forever.  O-rings disintegrate, plastic containers eventually become brittle and shatter, metal containers rust and seize, zip-lock baggies get torn, threads of screw tops wear out due to use or misapplication. Water gets in one way or another. You can only delay maintenance. 

[+Goldenwattle]

2 hours ago, MNTA said:

No container here unless they are indoors lasts forever.  O-rings disintegrate, plastic containers eventually become brittle and shatter, metal containers rust and seize, zip-lock baggies get torn, threads of screw tops wear out due to use or misapplication. Water gets in one way or another. You can only delay maintenance. 

It depends where they are placed. Even a mintie tin (which usually have very short lives, especially the log placed in it) will last a long time if placed in a dry place, not near salt water. I placed a large, dark green *, plastic vitamin container under a tree eight years ago. It's still okay. Although outside it's a very shady place, so out of the sun.

 

* I mentioned its colour, as dark colours last longer than pale colours in the sun. However on further research that might only be black plastic that contains Carbon Black. It might just be because my cache is in the shade it has lasted so long, so its position. Someone else might know more about the science of this.

 

Metal tins will last a long time in dry places that aren't salty.

[+barefootjeff]

4 hours ago, MNTA said:

No container here unless they are indoors lasts forever.  O-rings disintegrate, plastic containers eventually become brittle and shatter, metal containers rust and seize, zip-lock baggies get torn, threads of screw tops wear out due to use or misapplication. Water gets in one way or another. You can only delay maintenance. 

 

Have you read any of my earlier posts in this thread and looked at the photos I posted? Like the stainless steel cookpot I used on GC752YF, still in perfect condition with not so much as a drop of water inside after five years in this cave on Scopas Peak...

 

 

Or the 10-year-old Sistema in GC44X7B that was one of my first finds when I started in 2013 and is still in excellent condition.

 

 

Or this cache of mine, placed in 2014 which is just tucked under a rock shelf at ground level on Blackwall Mountain...

 

 

I've found Sistemas in similar condition that were 20 years old, just keep them out of the sun and they're fine.

 

The Duratech black ABS plastic instrument cases that are now my go-to container when I want something rugged and extremely waterproof have 6mm thick walls and are unlikely to turn brittle and fall apart in my lifetime. For over a year now I've had one sitting next to the base of a waterfall where it's constantly wet and even got fully submerged in one of last year's floods but its contents are still bone dry.

 

 

 

If you want to get extreme, I've been lugging this plastic toolbox around in the back of my car since I first learnt to drive in about 1975, so that's close on fifty years, but no sign of it turning brittle yet...

 

 

As for ammo cans, the only time I've come across one that had rusted out was in a coastal crevice subjected to constant sea spray. This one in GCMMNT, which was placed in 2005 and adopted by me in 2017, is about ten metres from a salt water estuary and has a little bit of cosmetic surface rust but is still structurally sound. It has its original logbook and everything is bone dry...

 

 

Going to another extreme, here's a cache I found a few years back in the Watagan Mountains. Cast in concrete, I can't imagine it falling apart any time soon, or being muggled for that matter...

 

''

 

For micro containers exposed to the weather, lee737 has been using this style of container for some years now with good success. It consists of a 3D-printed outer container with another sealed container inside and sometimes even a third. This is a cache he placed in a tree stump in May 2020, which I walked past and checked last Sunday, and is still in perfect condition with a bone-dry logbook inside...

 

 

For larger containers he's been using these Pelican boxes which are pretty rugged and unlikely to fall apart in my lifetime...

 

 

If you look beyond the supermarket shelves, it's not that hard to find robust containers that will stand up to whatever the environment at GZ throws at them over the life of the cache. There's no one-size-fits-all container that will work everywhere, but for any given location I'm sure there's something that will do just fine.

Edited August 23, 2023 by barefootjeff

[+JL_HSTRE]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:11 PM, CAVinoGal said:

Locally, I tend to contact the CO directly if I know him/her. and resolve it without logging a DNF. 

 

Anytime someone messages me about being unable to Find one of my caches I tell them to log a DNF. Probably half never do.

 

(I do also ask some questions to clarify where they were looking and try to steer them in the right direction. None of my hides are hard but one simple hide under a boardwalk seems to befuddle more people than it should.)

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by JL_HSTRE
Typo

[+JL_HSTRE]

I have 167 Finds in 2023. Some are ALs and lots of them are either Virtuals or Earthcaches, mostly on a two-week out of state vacation. Only 63 Finds were only physical caches.

 

I'm generally pretty good about logging my DNFs, but I only have 4 DNFs this year - all on physical caches. That's 6% of physical containers or 2% of all caches sought. Of those four:

• 1 also had a NM log from me and was archived (hillside swept by wildfire).
• 2 subsequently found by other seekers (not replaced)
• 1 is in a rural area, resulting in no logs since my visit 3 months ago. The last log before mine was six months earlier.

 

I'm pretty good about logging DNFs so my lifetime rate is 11% DNFs. ISAG so I'd say at least half of my DNFs are on caches that aren't missing; probably no more than 5% are actually gone. However, I also usually avoid searching for difficult hides, and also usually avoid hides with recent DNFs. I extensively curate my GSAK database.

 

I've logged 7 NM/OAR this year:

• 2 of those are now archived. One was destroyed in a fire, and the other was a creative container that had been damaged and leaked; the owner archived in response to the NM rather than repair.
• 2 of the NMs were on Virtuals. In both caches, the Virtual had a question that can no longer be answered. However, both locations relate to unusual buildings so seekers just post a photo (usually a selfie) with the building.
• 1 was armchair logged. While preparing for my trip I noticed a hide with 5 DNFs and 0 Finds in the last 2 years, with logs indicating previous finders confirmed it was missing and a log photo of a clear impression in pine straw of where an ammo can previously sat. The next log after mine was a Find by someone who placed a replacement ammo can. Allegedly they contacted the CO first, but the CO never bothered to log anything on the cache page.
• The other 2 are still active with no Owner Maintenance (or response of any kind), and not Disabled or Archived. Both are broken containers with ruined contents. Several subsequent finds have confirmed the cache remains in poor condition.

 

I've logged only 1 NA/NRA this year. The cache was hidden on a building that burned downed. There were three consecutive logs about the building being burned down...all of them were Notes!!! The CO, who had logged in since 2019, logged on to Disable the cache but probably meant to Archive it. It was subsequently Reviewer Archived.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by JL_HSTRE
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