DOC, Caches, Virtual Caches etc

[Guest rediguana]

Have had this in my mind a bit recently, after talking to the owner of MapWorld about geocaching, and one of his first questions was what does DOC think about caches in National Parks? And I went a little quiet then... And after reading other threads about the US NPS - http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000114.html

 

There are, I guess, a few ways of approaching this situation, and there are mutiple issues at play. I guess the two major ones are off-trail walking, and placing a container. Most of these points focus on the container issue.

 

1. Carry on same as normal until it becomes an issue.

2. Do something proactive soon, approach DOC, and see what happens.

3. Develop an alternate form of hide and seek that may not be an issue with DOC.

 

I was thinking about something along the lines of not placing a container, but using some other form of marking the location. It could be a piece of wood or a stone with a certain marking on it. It may be a subtle marker on a tree. It could be a pile of stones. I guess what I am trying to think of is using natural materials to mark the location, so that hunters know they find the spot without having to use a manmade container. Kind of making order from the surrounding chaos to mark the place a human has been. Perhaps some wood that has had the cache code carved into it. Or wood carved in a distinctly unnatural way. Perhaps flax tied together round a branch. Note that this item would have to be carried in, and not created there as that would be illegal (damaging plantlife etc).

 

I guess I am thinking this way in case DOC has a fit and says no to caches with manmade stuff being left unsupervised.

 

Am I going overboard?

 

On the plus side, I like this as a way to make some new style of caches, partly a cross between regular and virtual caches. I guess my ideal would be a log only cache I'd be very interested to hear others thoughts and suggestions. Note that this would also mean less upkeep is potentially required.

 

Do you think DOC would have a problem with log-only caches?

 

Hmm, food for thought

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest Nemesis]

Maybe they will see that our sport has little environmental impact (mention trash out too?) when compared to other activities on their land. We are also commited to preventing excessive environmental damage, that is, a cache will be removed by the owner or other geocachers if it becomes a problem. Oh yeah, you should mention that we don't intend to overun the parks with caches (we won't place 20 beside the same waterfall, for instance). They have a finite lifetime, after which they will be removed.

 

I think log book only caches are slightly better, but they will probably be perceived the same way by DOC. If you are worried about placing physical caches in parks, then you should simply choose to use virtual caches instead. But, your idea of placing another object or moving existing object would probably also break the rules.

 

Cheers,

Donovan.

[Guest Adman]

I have been thinking about this long and hard over the weekend and I definately think contacting DOC is the way to go. It might be better received though if it came from an organisation or club.

 

Is it time for Geocaching NZ Inc. ?

 

Cheers

Adam

 

[This message has been edited by Adman (edited 13 October 2001).]

[Guest peejay]

Maybe we could gradually introduce the idea to DOC. Maybe they will see that our sport has little environmental impact (mention trash out too?) when compared to other activities on their land.

 

I can see where this topic is going to become an issue like it has in the USA but hopefully we are a little more laid back than they are.

Could I just point out here (policitaly incorrect message follows!) that it is not DOC's land, it is ours ie citizens of New Zealand. DOC is merely a Government agency and has no ownership of Crown Land.

Just my two pennorth worth.

[Guest Adman]

quote:

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Originally posted by peejay:

Could I just point out here (policitaly incorrect message follows!) that it is not DOC's land, it is ours ie citizens of New Zealand. DOC is merely a Government agency and has no ownership of Crown Land.

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I can't see DOC buying that argument

 

Cheers

Adam

[Guest HunterGatherer]

i certainly don't class my caches as "leaving litter" ... i plan on (and do) keeping an eye on my caches to check things like environmental impact (the immediate impact, as well as if the container itself poses a threat) and clear accessability. Plus, all my caches have a link to the geocaching website and my email address on it... so if it needs to be removed, i will do it ASAP.

 

*nb. i also cast an eye over any caches i'm hunting... if i think they are a threat, i'll drop a note to the owner. I expect people to do the same with my caches.

 

Still, i think it's a great idea to contact DOC, but am sure they'll be unhappy about things

 

solution: plant all caches on non-DOC land and include anonymous off-set co-ords for caches on DOC land. guierilla caching makes the game full-contact

[Guest rediguana]

Sorry its been a while since I followed up on this thread - I have been out of town, as some of you may have noticed

 

I agree with a lot of the points you have all made. Perhaps we should

 

1. Form some sort of organisation to present a unified front, and single contact point in NZ. This would aid dealings with govt agencies etc. Hopefully we could do most of this via this forum and email - if this is required.

2. Form some specific policies (yuck , copied from the principles in the US that apply to NZ. I.e. cache in trash out, look after the environment yadda yadda yadda

3. Then consider approaching DOC et al if the issue hasn't already been raised by that time.

 

As a brief aside, even though DOC doesn't own the land, I believe that it has governance over the land on behalf of the crown/people. So they are the ones we will have to report to in those cases where caches are on DOC governed land. I suppose all non-DOC land is then covered by the TLA's? (Territorial Local Authorities)

 

I guess part of this is also thinking about the potential cache sprall that may occur this summer as more cachers start placing. Just look at the US! Of course we won't reach the same level as them, however given Kiwi's love for the outdoors, I don't see this hobby going away.

 

And sooner or later DOC staff will hear about geocaching. Whether they stumble across it from surfing, or a friend tells them, they will find out. And security through obscurity won't work - such as offset coordinates - because the actual hunters will still need to know the offsets as well. Unless of course we kept a closed loop of people we knew - but that is pointless.

 

Virtual caches are OK, but I think there still needs to be something to mark the virtual cache, something that is involved in the hunt. I'm still trying to figure some examples out, but I'm thinking things like the crossed branches that have been used to mark buried caches etc.

 

Anyway, more food for thought

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest Adman]

quote:

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Originally posted by rediguana:

And security through obscurity won't work - such as offset coordinates - because the actual hunters will still need to know the offsets as well. Unless of course we kept a closed loop of people we knew

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I think we need to take the opposite approach to this, the more people involved the better. An secret organisation of 10 people definately won't ensure the succcess of geocaching in NZ.

 

Unfortunately we may be in a catch 22, because it would be good to approach doc with a large number of people in an organisation, but to do that we would have to promote it heavily which will definately get the attention of doc .

 

Does anybody no what is involved in becoming an official organisation?

 

Cheers

Adam

[Guest Adman]

quote:

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As posted on the DOC Website:

The Department of Conservation is one of the few Government agencies with a mandate to help people enjoy themselves in the outdoors.In addition to its role in protecting New Zealand's natural and historic heritage

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So if this is true we should have no problem at all approaching DOC

 

Cheers

Adam

[Guest rediguana]

quote:

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Originally posted by Adman:

So if this is true we should have no problem at all approaching DOC

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I think if we can show DOC that we are working to this code, then things will be much happier

 

http://www.doc.govt.nz/rec/recgen/environ_care.htm

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest rediguana]

Another reason why I like the small population of New Zealand

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001291.html

 

Cheers Gav

[Guest Adman]

Surely the arguments in this thread will apply to public parks as well, should we be contacting local councils as well.

 

Cheers

Adam