About geo-challanges

[+Matekarlo]

Hello,

I have a question. We plan to do geo-challenge geocacahes. I want to ask if all the challenges we came up with are possible and will be approved if we do them?

 

Here is the list:

 

1. 3x3. - within 24 hours (one day) to visit 3 foreign countries and find 3 geo-treasures each.

2. 1000 geocaches finds (total). 

3. To have 60 possitive atrributs. (total) at project-gc.

4. 10 letterbox (type) founds.

5. find 6 different types of geo-treasures in 24 hours.

6. Attend an event that has "night cache" attribute. 

--------------------------------------------------------------

1. 15 attended event's (total)

2. 100 mystery finds (total). 

3. Found a geocache with minimum 50 favorite points.

4. To have 35 negatibe  atrributs (total) at project-gc.

5. To have found a geocache older than 8 years.

6. Attend an event that has "boat required" attribute. 

 

Thank you in advance!

Edited January 19, 2023 by Matekarlo

[Keystone]

Challenge ideas 1 and 5 in your list are time-limited and thus are ineligible under the challenge cache guidelines.

[+Jayeffel]

You can alway find them and know you did them without them being officially sanctioned. 

[+Matekarlo]

15 minutes ago, Keystone said:

Challenge ideas 1 and 5 in your list are time-limited and thus are ineligible under the challenge cache guidelines.

Interesting. We have found a 4x4 in the Czech Republic. But thanks, will have to think of new ones. :/

 

And 15 events. Is that really against the rules? A person does not have to participate in 15 events in a certain time, there are no "instructions" for that. Just an incentive to participate in events. EDIT: I did not fully understand, now it is clear that it is suitable. "No go" 6 types in 24 hours, okay.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Matekarlo

[+Max and 99]

8 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Interesting. We have found a 4x4 in the Czech Republic. But thanks, will have to think of new ones. :/

 

That one was published in August of 2013 before the new rules were announced. 

[+Matekarlo]

3 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

That one was published in August of 2013 before the new rules were announced. 

Sad, but logical. Thank you.

[+Matekarlo]

If anyone has any suggestions on how to replace those 2 with some other challanges, I'd love to hear them!

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Matekarlo said:

1 hour ago, Max and 99 said:

That one was published in August of 2013 before the new rules were announced. 

Sad, but logical. Thank you.

Be especially careful about looking at existing challenges to see what kinds of challenges are possible today. For one thing, the Help Center article Challenge caches specifically calls out the part of the guidelines that states that there is no precedent for placing guidelines. For another, the guidelines for challenge caches were significantly tightened up when the one-year moratorium on new challenge caches was lifted in 2016, and have been tightened up more since then. Existing challenge caches were grandfathered, but new ones with the same challenge requirements are not allowed.

[+MtnGoat50]

You have two lists in your post, both numbered 1 to 6. As was mentioned above the challenge cache guidelines now (since 2016) prohibit time limited challenges such as:

1. 3x3. - within 24 hours (one day) to visit 3 foreign countries and find 3 geo-treasures each.

and

5. find 6 different types of geo-treasures in 24 hours.

Look at item 9. Time-Limited right at the top under acceptable, "Time-limited caching: as in some number of finds per day, week, month, or year."

 

Also, regarding:

6. Attend an event that has "night cache" attribute.

and

6. Attend an event that has "boat required" attribute.

Have you considered that to qualify all an event host has to do it add these attributes to their event? The problem with any attribute challenge that they're easily manipulated by other cache owners. 

 

3 hours ago, Matekarlo said:

If anyone has any suggestions on how to replace those 2 with some other challanges, I'd love to hear them!

In both cases removing the 24 hour time restriction would solve the problem.

[+JL_HSTRE]

4 hours ago, Matekarlo said:

10 letterbox (type) founds.

 

This seems like a challenge that is allowable, yet kind of problematic. 

 

If your region has very few letterbox geocaches it might get denied for being too hard to accomplish with too few existing qualifiers. 

 

If your region has a fairly typical number of letterbox caches then it's kind of a lame challenge. Someone who has started looking at challenge caches has probably already got ten letterboxes. Especially if your region is like mine and letterbox caches are nearly always at the posted coordinates. 

[+Mausebiber]

Whatever you come up with, please keep in mind, that a challenge checker is required.  You have to provide a link to a checker as part of the cache description.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Hmm...  I've found 91 Letterbox hybrids!

When I went to my brother's wedding in Washington, I told him I wanted to find as many types of caches in one day.  I'd never cached in Washington before.  He helped us find 8 cache types in one day, including GCHQ.

[+barefootjeff]

29 minutes ago, Harry Dolphin said:

Hmm...  I've found 91 Letterbox hybrids!

When I went to my brother's wedding in Washington, I told him I wanted to find as many types of caches in one day.  I'd never cached in Washington before.  He helped us find 8 cache types in one day, including GCHQ.

 

I'm probably at the other extreme. In ten years of caching I've found just 9 LBHs and currently my region has only two active ones.

[+niraD]

13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I'm probably at the other extreme. In ten years of caching I've found just 9 LBHs and currently my region has only two active ones.

I've got only four LBH finds.

 

In the area where I used to live, there weren't many LBH caches, but the ones that were there all used letterbox-style clues. There was an area that I used to visit about once a year that had a lot of LBH caches, but they were all "traditional with a stamp" style LBH caches, which didn't particularly appeal to me. So when I visited that area, I found other caches that were more interesting rather than racking up LBH finds just for the icon.

Edited January 20, 2023 by niraD

[+thebruce0]

I won't even consider suggesting how many LBs I've found and how many are in Ontario. We have owners who place powertrails of LBs, with the cheapest little stamps you can get (though many don't have them, or lost them). We have many people in Ontario who are out for stats. It's sad because the intent of the LB is getting lost in numbers runs. 

 

So yeah, it really is regional. 10 LB finds is almost zero effort in my area.

 

ETA: 572 for me. But I haven't visited the latest few letterbox trails an hour or two from me. Ontario is rife with LBs.

Edited January 20, 2023 by thebruce0

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, thebruce0 said:

the cheapest little stamps you can get (though many don't have them, or lost them).

I have found that in places too.

 

I have a challenge I need one more cache for to qualify; a micro sized letter box cache. An oxymoron if ever there was one, as letter box caches should be big enough for a stamp and a log big enough for finders' stamps. A micro log is not big enough, and micro letter boxes should not be allowed. However, as some others have qualified for this challenge, obviously micro letter box caches exist. I have come upon letter boxes marked small with logs too small for stamps. Obviously not a letter box cache, if finders can't use their stamp. Anything can be called a letter box cache. Sad!

Edited January 20, 2023 by Goldenwattle

[+barefootjeff]

58 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

I have found that in places too.

 

I have a challenge I need one more cache for to qualify; a micro sized letter box cache. An oxymoron if ever there was one, as letter box caches should be big enough for a stamp and a log big enough for finders' stamps. A micro log is not big enough, and micro letter boxes should not be allowed. However, as some others have qualified for this challenge, obviously micro letter box caches exist. I have come upon letter boxes marked small with logs too small for stamps. Obviously not a letter box cache, if finders can't use their stamp. Anything can be called a letter box cache. Sad!

 

A quick search shows there are 6 micro-sized LBHs in New South Wales. Three are part of the Colo River Grumpy Power Trail, which I'd intended doing on a kayaking trip early last year, but repeated severe flooding of the river during 2022 put paid to that. None of the caches along there have been found since May 2021 and, with the flood waters peaking at about 20 metres each time, are probably now somewhere out to sea. One of the others claims to contain a logbook and stamp (but a recent log said the stamp has gone missing); it's not clear about the other two.

[+Oxford Stone]

Interesting read, thanks. https://project-gc.com/Home/FAQ#3082063764 a useful link to see how to get that checker set up. 

 

Here https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC42ARE is an example of one near me that would no longer be allowed. 

 

Here's my list that I want to set up - in March 2024, you'll see why:

1. FTFs in 6 counties (I qualify)
2. 1000 unknowns (I'm currently on 1236 so maybe that will get pushed up to 1500)
3. 1000 caches in each of 3 counties - verifiable in PGC, drill down a level from Region - I'm in low 900s for my 3rd county
4. 10 calendar loops - I'm currently 10 dates and 30 caches off (including today, need 4 will get 1, but it'll be a Saturday next year!) and hope to finish on 29 Feb next year. 

Those are all easily verified by eye in PGC - setting up the checkers will be fun.

[+baer2006]

1 hour ago, Oxford Stone said:

Here's my list that I want to set up - in March 2024, you'll see why:

1. FTFs in 6 counties (I qualify)

Sorry to be a but blunt here, but this is obviously disallowed under the current guidelines:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=206

 

It says explicitly, that challenges based on FTFs are not possible:
 

Quote

Competition rather than achievement. Examples: challenges based on "First to Finds" or lonely caches are competitions.

 

[+Goldenwattle]

1 hour ago, Oxford Stone said:

Here https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC42ARE is an example of one near me that would no longer be allowed. 

Not something I will make an effort at 🥱.

[+thebruce0]

9 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

a micro sized letter box cache. An oxymoron if ever there was one, as letter box caches should be big enough for a stamp and a log big enough for finders' stamps. A micro log is not big enough, and micro letter boxes should not be allowed.

 

Technically it's not required that a finder be able to stamp the log, only that there is a stamp inside to stamp their own log; nor is an ink pad a required item in the cache. And yes, there are stamps small enough for bison tubes, I've come across quite a few as such. This is not me condoning it, but is a perfect example of how people will "play within the rules"

 

 

One reason people aren't caring as much is because, honestly, how many people who geocache regularly actually do letterboxes in the classic intended manner?  Few and far between at best. And I'd guess that's worldwide too, not just my area.  I do recall coming across at least a couple since I start caching.  Imagine them trying to actually seek out legit letterboxes?

 

No these days the LB is primarily there for people's numbers. Occasionally a CO will put effort into the style of finding (instructional not at posted), but really those letterbox hybrids are almost always just puzzle caches with a stamp in them.

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by thebruce0

[+Hügh]

3 hours ago, baer2006 said:

obviously disallowed

…it’s also not the only one that’s very specifically disallowed - #4 is not publishable either:
 

Requiring more than one find on any day or calendar date, even if cumulative. Example: find 5 caches for every date of the Finds for Each Day of the Year grid.

[+niraD]

1 hour ago, Hügh said:

5 hours ago, baer2006 said:

obviously disallowed

…it’s also not the only one that’s very specifically disallowed - #4 is not publishable either:

And the others would go straight onto my ignore list if they were in my "blast radius". (The only caches on my ignore list are challenge caches that I never expect to complete.)

[+MtnGoat50]

 

9 hours ago, Oxford Stone said:

2. 1000 unknowns (I'm currently on 1236 so maybe that will get pushed up to 1500

That seems like a lot. I suspect your reviewer will ask you for a list of 10 other local qualifiers. See 5. Standard for Criteria in the Help Center which says:

"A challenge cache needs to appeal to and be attainable by a reasonable number of cachers. Your reviewer may ask for a list of cachers from your area who qualify."

 

9 hours ago, Oxford Stone said:

10 calendar loops - I'm currently 10 dates and 30 caches off (including today, need 4 will get 1, but it'll be a Saturday next year!) and hope to finish on 29 Feb next year. 

Why 10? I've done 6 loops (366/6) and I'm happy with that but if wanted another goal it would be 11 (where the color on the grid changes) not 10.

[+Goldenwattle]

9 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

but really those letterbox hybrids are almost always just puzzle caches with a stamp in them.

Often just a traditional cache in an ordinary container with a stamp.

[+barefootjeff]

11 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

9 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

but really those letterbox hybrids are almost always just puzzle caches with a stamp in them.

Often just a traditional cache in an ordinary container with a stamp

 

I've only found 9, but a lot of those have used an actual letterbox as the container. Some were traditionals, some puzzles (perhaps with a postal theme), but only one has had letterbox-style clues to follow.

[+Goldenwattle]

18 minutes ago, barefootjeff said:

 

I've only found 9, but a lot of those have used an actual letterbox as the container. Some were traditionals, some puzzles (perhaps with a postal theme), but only one has had letterbox-style clues to follow.

I've found a few with letterboxes as containers and this is great. Plus the letterbox caches inside large metal art creations, some with a small puzzle to get inside it. Those are wonderful and memorable. However, most I have found are just traditionals with a stamp.

[+thebruce0]

3 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

12 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

but really those letterbox hybrids are almost always just puzzle caches with a stamp in them.

Often just a traditional cache in an ordinary container with a stamp.

 

Yes I was referring specifically to the ones that aren't just traditional with a stamp - classic letterbox style, instructional, not at posted (ie, not traditional+stamp) - majority of which are more like puzzle & stamp, rather than offset with orienteering-style instructions.

[+CheekyBrit]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:17 AM, Matekarlo said:

If anyone has any suggestions on how to replace those 2 with some other challanges, I'd love to hear them!

Change found date to hidden date.
Challenge to find 6 types of geocache that were hidden on the same date. I'm working toward hiding a challenge like that.
Right now I have GC9TJ0Z (5 types hidden every month challenge) published and active. Finding 5 types every month was a bit time limited. Part of the issue HQ is trying to avoid is someone intentionally NOT finding a cache so they can ration it for a challenge, like not finding a multi so they can find it in a particular month.

[+Goldenwattle]

22 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

there are stamps small enough for bison tubes,

Letter box caches

 

The small bison tube micro letterbox cache I found today didn't have for a stamp, or room for one. The log took up the whole bison tube. I guess a stamp could be hung outside it.

Several letterbox caches I found today had no stamps. On the other hand, some had some of the nicest stamps I have seen in caches. One 'small' sized cache was a micro sized mintie tin. Really, anything goes with letterbox caches. Shame, as they should be special. Basically, get a small plastic contain, throw a cheap stamp in and voila, a letterbox cache .

[+Matekarlo]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:04 PM, niraD said:

Be especially careful about looking at existing challenges to see what kinds of challenges are possible today. For one thing, the Help Center article Challenge caches specifically calls out the part of the guidelines that states that there is no precedent for placing guidelines. For another, the guidelines for challenge caches were significantly tightened up when the one-year moratorium on new challenge caches was lifted in 2016, and have been tightened up more since then. Existing challenge caches were grandfathered, but new ones with the same challenge requirements are not allowed.

Now I understand that existing geocaches from before cannot be an indicator, sad.

On 1/19/2023 at 11:04 PM, MtnGoat50 said:

You have two lists in your post, both numbered 1 to 6. As was mentioned above the challenge cache guidelines now (since 2016) prohibit time limited challenges such as:

1. 3x3. - within 24 hours (one day) to visit 3 foreign countries and find 3 geo-treasures each.

and

5. find 6 different types of geo-treasures in 24 hours.

Look at item 9. Time-Limited right at the top under acceptable, "Time-limited caching: as in some number of finds per day, week, month, or year."

 

Also, regarding:

6. Attend an event that has "night cache" attribute.

and

6. Attend an event that has "boat required" attribute.

Have you considered that to qualify all an event host has to do it add these attributes to their event? The problem with any attribute challenge that they're easily manipulated by other cache owners. 

 

In both cases removing the 24 hour time restriction would solve the problem.

I think something like this:

4x4. visit 4 countries and find 4 treasures each.

Find 6 different types of geo-caches in Kaunas city.

On 1/19/2023 at 11:10 PM, JL_HSTRE said:

 

This seems like a challenge that is allowable, yet kind of problematic. 

 

If your region has very few letterbox geocaches it might get denied for being too hard to accomplish with too few existing qualifiers. 

 

If your region has a fairly typical number of letterbox caches then it's kind of a lame challenge. Someone who has started looking at challenge caches has probably already got ten letterboxes. Especially if your region is like mine and letterbox caches are nearly always at the posted coordinates. 

We don't have much letter-box geocaches here, but i chsnging it to: 40 virtual (type) founds.

On 1/20/2023 at 12:08 AM, Mausebiber said:

Whatever you come up with, please keep in mind, that a challenge checker is required.  You have to provide a link to a checker as part of the cache description.

I can guarantee - it will be.

On 1/20/2023 at 12:23 AM, Harry Dolphin said:

Hmm...  I've found 91 Letterbox hybrids!

When I went to my brother's wedding in Washington, I told him I wanted to find as many types of caches in one day.  I'd never cached in Washington before.  He helped us find 8 cache types in one day, including GCHQ.

We don't have much letter-box geocaches here, but i chsnging it to: 40 virtual (type) founds.

On 1/21/2023 at 7:32 AM, CheekyBrit said:

Change found date to hidden date.
Challenge to find 6 types of geocache that were hidden on the same date. I'm working toward hiding a challenge like that.
Right now I have GC9TJ0Z (5 types hidden every month challenge) published and active. Finding 5 types every month was a bit time limited. Part of the issue HQ is trying to avoid is someone intentionally NOT finding a cache so they can ration it for a challenge, like not finding a multi so they can find it in a particular month.

Mine will also be of 6 types, but simpler: Find 6 different types of geo-caches in Kaunas city

[+Matekarlo]

Thanks a lot everyone for the replies, today's reworked challenges look like this. Maybe not very difficult, but our main idea is to encourage new geocachers.

 

1.     2000 geocaches finds (total). 

2.     4x4. visit 4 countries and find 4 treasures each

3.     300 geocaches in Kaunas city (hit the amount of 300 found geocaches within the city of Kaunas).

4.     To have 60 possitive attributes. (total) at project-gc.

5.     40 virtual (type) founds.

6.     Find 6 different types of geo-caches in Kaunas city.

7.     Attend an event that has "night cache" attribute. 

8.     25 attended event's (total)

9.     To have 35 negative attributes (total) at project-gc.

10.   To have found a geocache older than 8 years.

11.   Attend an event that has "boat required" attribute. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Matekarlo

[+Max and 99]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:08 PM, Mausebiber said:

Whatever you come up with, please keep in mind, that a challenge checker is required.  You have to provide a link to a checker as part of the cache description.

 

4 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

I can guarantee - it will be.

And the finder is not required to use that checker! 😁

[+Matekarlo]

6 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

 

And the finder is not required to use that checker! 😁

haha

[+Max and 99]

9 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

haha

Just in case there's any doubt, I was serious about that statement. 

[+Matekarlo]

5 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Just in case there's any doubt, I was serious about that statement. 

Then what is the need for a checker if a person does not have to pass it?

[+MtnGoat50]

19 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Thanks a lot everyone for the replies, today's reworked challenges look like this. Maybe not very difficult, but our main idea is to encourage new geocachers.

 

1.     2000 geocaches finds (total). 

2.     4x4. visit 4 countries and find 4 treasures each

3.     300 geocaches in Kaunas city (hit the amount of 300 found geocaches within the city of Kaunas).

4.     To have 60 possitive attributes. (total) at project-gc.

5.     40 virtual (type) founds.

6.     Find 6 different types of geo-caches in Kaunas city.

7.     Attend an event that has "night cache" attribute. 

8.     25 attended event's (total)

9.     To have 35 negative attributes (total) at project-gc.

10.   To have found a geocache older than 8 years.

11.   Attend an event that has "boat required" attribute. 

On 3 and 6 you can't specify a city. Only countries, states, and counties (or their local equivalents) are allowed. See Item 10. Source of Criteria which under Not Allowed, says, "Challenges based on geographic areas other than countries, states/provinces, counties (or their local equivalent). Examples: user-defined mapping polygons, latitude/longitude, radius, etc."

[+Max and 99]

2 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Then what is the need for a checker if a person does not have to pass it?

[+Matekarlo]

4 minutes ago, MtnGoat50 said:

On 3 and 6 you can't specify a city. Only countries, states, and counties (or their local equivalents) are allowed. See Item 10. Source of Criteria which under Not Allowed, says, "Challenges based on geographic areas other than countries, states/provinces, counties (or their local equivalent). Examples: user-defined mapping polygons, latitude/longitude, radius, etc."

Hm? We have a fresh cache where you need to find 700 caches in a city. Published 12/16/2022.

[+Matekarlo]

8 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Well, that's right, you can find it at any time, but mark it in the system only when you pass the checker. Simple.

[+Max and 99]

Just now, Matekarlo said:

Well, that's right, you can find it at any time, but mark it in the system only when you pass the checker. Simple.

 

 

[+Hügh]

6 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

Hm? We have a fresh cache where you need to find 700 caches in a city. Published 12/16/2022.

 

They probably phrased it as "Kauno miesto (county), Kauno (region), Lithuania". If you do the same, then it is permitted.

[+Matekarlo]

3 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

 

 

Ah, okay. Now I understand. Then answer is no - you must pass the checher.

2 minutes ago, Hügh said:

 

They probably phrased it as "Kauno miesto (county), Kauno (region), Lithuania". If you do the same, then it is permitted.

Yes, you are right. They phrashed exactly like that. Thanks for the correction.

[+thebruce0]

For #2, what is "4 treasures"?  That's not a geocaching term.

 

As for qualifying, a cache (assuming its log has been signed) can't be logged found unless the challenge is qualified (or rather, a cache owner can delete a log if qualification cannot be demonstrated). Passing the qualification checker is itself not a requirement, but it is an easy way to verify qualification. Checkers are required on challenge caches now, but if a checker returns a failure, yet the finder can verify they qualify to the owner's satisfaction, that is still a pass (and probably means there's a problem with the checker; it happens).

It's still ultimately the cache owner's decision as to whether a finder has qualified. But, if the checker is accurate, that's a pretty good defense either way.

 

And yes, you can't require finds in a city, but you can require them within county boundaries. It's odd when a county's name may include "city", heh, or if a county is primarily filled with a city and some surrounding countryside and the county is usually referred to by the city. Technically speaking, it must be county boundaries in a qualification.

[+Matekarlo]

7 hours ago, thebruce0 said:

For #2, what is "4 treasures"?  That's not a geocaching term.

 

As for qualifying, a cache (assuming its log has been signed) can't be logged found unless the challenge is qualified (or rather, a cache owner can delete a log if qualification cannot be demonstrated). Passing the qualification checker is itself not a requirement, but it is an easy way to verify qualification. Checkers are required on challenge caches now, but if a checker returns a failure, yet the finder can verify they qualify to the owner's satisfaction, that is still a pass (and probably means there's a problem with the checker; it happens).

It's still ultimately the cache owner's decision as to whether a finder has qualified. But, if the checker is accurate, that's a pretty good defense either way.

 

And yes, you can't require finds in a city, but you can require them within county boundaries. It's odd when a county's name may include "city", heh, or if a county is primarily filled with a city and some surrounding countryside and the county is usually referred to by the city. Technically speaking, it must be county boundaries in a qualification.

 4x4. -  Visit 4 foreign countries and find 4 geo-treasures each. Better or still not a geocaching term? 

[+Goldenwattle]

geo-treasures?

are Caches?

[+Matekarlo]

3 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

geo-treasures?

are Caches?

yes, 'geocaches', probably would be better

[+Goldenwattle]

49 minutes ago, Matekarlo said:

yes, 'geocaches', probably would be better

Thank you. Geocache is much better. That's understandable. Geo-treasures are trinkets found in caches, not the cache.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Goldenwattle

[+Oxford Stone]

On 1/20/2023 at 12:29 PM, baer2006 said:

Sorry to be a but blunt here, but this is obviously disallowed under the current guidelines:

https://www.geocaching.com/help/index.php?pg=kb.chapter&id=127&pgid=206

 

It says explicitly, that challenges based on FTFs are not possible:
 

 

Thx, I'd not read the guidelines! 

[+Oxford Stone]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:59 PM, niraD said:

And the others would go straight onto my ignore list if they were in my "blast radius". (The only caches on my ignore list are challenge caches that I never expect to complete.)

Fair dos, I think the only cache I currently ignore is a CITO in 6 counties' challenge! Doing one in my own county was bad enough!