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No way to contact AdLab creator from app


fizzymagic

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Am I hallucinating?  Or perhaps just blind?  There appears to be no way to contact the owner of an adventure lab from within the app.  Last weekend I did a stage where the owner had misspelled the answer, and without completing the entire lab there was no way to contact them to let them know.  Doesn't it seem that ability to contact the owner with questions like this would be a part of the app?  For now, you can always go back through the geocaching app, but it would seem to be a pretty big problem going forward.

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3 hours ago, Viajero Perdido said:

Ownership made "geocaching" great, and lack thereof sank "challenges" (don't ask).

I don't need to.  I was there (shudder).

 

If the testing tools for ALs were better perhaps there would not be a need but as long as they are weak and HQ performs no discernible quality control of any kind, there will inevitably be a need for communication with owners.

 

Sigh.

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2 hours ago, fizzymagic said:

If the testing tools for ALs were better perhaps there would not be a need but as long as they are weak and HQ performs no discernible quality control of any kind, there will inevitably be a need for communication with owners.

 

Even with the best testing tools, the things in the environment that the questions are about can change. If a question becomes unanswerable because the sign it refers to is removed or replaced by a new sign with different wording, the owner's not going to know about it because there's no way to log a DNF or NM, and they'd be even unlikely to notice a lack of finders because owners don't get notified of those either. Once an AL gets past 10 completions, the owner can't even see when the most recent completion was.

Edited by barefootjeff
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On 11/29/2022 at 7:49 AM, barefootjeff said:

 

Even with the best testing tools, the things in the environment that the questions are about can change. If a question becomes unanswerable because the sign it refers to is removed or replaced by a new sign with different wording, the owner's not going to know about it because there's no way to log a DNF or NM, and they'd be even unlikely to notice a lack of finders because owners don't get notified of those either. Once an AL gets past 10 completions, the owner can't even see when the most recent completion was.

I did a sequential AL yesterday.  It was not a pleasant experience.  At Stage 4 the notice board is missing. Many people have mentioned this in their logs but I assume that the owner has no idea.  Obviously, if one cannot figure out the answer then, as it is sequential, the AL cannot be completed. Apart from that I believe there should be a good reason to make an AL sequential. Especially when there is a choice of parking places.

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15 minutes ago, lefisher said:

I did a sequential AL yesterday.  It was not a pleasant experience.  At Stage 4 the notice board is missing. Many people have mentioned this in their logs but I assume that the owner has no idea.  Obviously, if one cannot figure out the answer then, as it is sequential, the AL cannot be completed. Apart from that I believe there should be a good reason to make an AL sequential. Especially when there is a choice of parking places.

I wouldn't assume that the owner doesn't know, but of course it's possible. I struggled mightily with  a vacation AL, and finally after 30 minutes of frustration contacted the ALO who said something along the lines of: "Yeah, I know, it's been gone a while now. You can enter this answer." 

Many locations that I've visited have had missing sources. It happens. A responsible AL owner will adjust the question/answer.

Have you contacted the ALO?

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4 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I wouldn't assume that the owner doesn't know, but of course it's possible. I struggled mightily with  a vacation AL, and finally after 30 minutes of frustration contacted the ALO who said something along the lines of: "Yeah, I know, it's been gone a while now. You can enter this answer." 

Many locations that I've visited have had missing sources. It happens. A responsible AL owner will adjust the question/answer.

Have you contacted the ALO?

 

There's a local AL with coordinates that are way off.  I asked the AL Owner, an experienced Geocacher, who told me that everybody has issues with those stages, and that it's not possible to edit, it cannot be fixed.  That issue alone made me place my AL credit on the back burner.  So you can't contact the ALO from the App, "can't even edit it after publication", there are many major flaws.  I won't subject Finders to that!  Yet I keep reading that yes, owners can fix their messed up AL.  Why would they insist it cannot be done?  Is there just a lot of confusion about how these things work?

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1 minute ago, kunarion said:

 

There's a local AL with coordinates that are way off.  I asked the AL Owner, an experienced Geocacher, who told me that everybody has issues with those stages, and that it's not possible to edit, it cannot be fixed.  That issue alone made me place my AL credit on the back burner.  So you can't contact the ALO from the App, "can't even edit it after publication", there are many major flaws.  I won't subject Finders to that!  Yet I keep reading that yes, owners can fix their messed up AL.  Why would they insist it cannot be done?  Is there just a lot of confusion about how these things work?

You can absolutely edit the coords of the stages after the AL is live… and text, answers, etc.  It’s the same easy process as creating the stages.

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One AL I did was such a problem because of no cell service, so he completely moved it to another city, edited every single coordinate, every single question, every single answer, every single photo. It was unrecognizable. And of course I got credit for visiting a location I've never been to. 

So yes everything can be edited!

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7 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

One AL I did was such a problem because of no cell service, so he completely moved it to another city, edited every single coordinate, every single question, every single answer, every single photo. It was unrecognizable. And of course I got credit for visiting a location I've never been to. 

So yes everything can be edited!

 

But when the ALO "knows for sure it can't be edited", it never gets fixed.  These bad ALs need to be clearly marked by Finders as "Unsolvable".  I also got the answers from the ALO, but there's of course a distance requirement that makes hunting the AL a chore.

 

Seeing these things reminds me to not do an AL, and never make an AL.  This is not the experience I'm intending for people.

 

Yet the first time I "found" a stage, I was impressed.  It seemed like a thing.  That impression wore off after the next poorly formed stages.

 

Edited by kunarion
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16 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I support the idea of a "Needs Maintenance" report for an AL.

 

As it applies to the OP, what percentage of ALs are unworkable?  I'd expect (and I'm sure the ALOs do) that you set it and forget it, that there's no need to contact the Owner.  Are there tons of these malformed ALs?  If so, it may be bigger than just about not being able to contact people, especially when we see that "contacting them" may not fix the problem.  The whole system may need to be re-tooled.

 

Edited by kunarion
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22 minutes ago, barefootguru said:

You can absolutely edit the coords of the stages after the AL is live… and text, answers, etc.  It’s the same easy process as creating the stages.

 

But suppose I contact them, and I say it can be fixed and they say it can't.  Does it seem like ALOs are having trouble understanding how, or that it's in fact possible to fix an AL?  If they can't figure it out, there's more to it than contacting them.  And if it's totally messed up, I'll have trouble helping them unscramble it anyway.

 

Edited by kunarion
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32 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

I support the idea of a "Needs Maintenance" report for an AL.

 

Seems like that can be automated.  The App is always connected, so it can report that a required answer is misspelled, or that there are problems with stages or the entire AL. 

 

The system could create the NM automatically, contact the ALO, and even require results.  "It looks like people are typing 'nine', and getting the answer wrong, and your AL wants 'nie'.  Do you need help fixing that answer?"

 

Or the system could ask me.  I got a stage correct, then never completed it.  If lots of people are having the exact same experience, I'd be fine with The App asking me if this AL appears to be broken.  You know, with the implication that it's not up to me to fix it, but that there's an interested party with sufficient gravitas to do something about it.

 

Edited by kunarion
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28 minutes ago, kunarion said:

Or the system could ask me.  I got a stage correct, then never completed it.  If lots of people are having the exact same experience, I'd be fine with The App asking me if this AL appears to be broken.  You know, with the implication that it's not up to me to fix it, but that there's an interested party with sufficient gravitas to do something about it

 

There's an AL that has its five stages set at cemeteries along Sydney's northern beaches from Manly in the south to Barrenjoey in the north, a straight-line distance of 24km. In September there was an event near the Barrenjoey stage and pretty much everyone at that event, including me, did that stage. I've yet to do any of the other stages, though, and the same is probably true of some of the others who attended that event, but the AL isn't broken.

 

All of my ALs have more "finds" on some stages than others, some of which I suspect might be armchair location-spoofers guessing some answers but not others, but mostly it'd be just people doing a stage when they happen to be close to it while out doing something else. My most recent one, which I set live back in October, is on a small island that's only accessible by ferry or private boat, and none of the stages are particularly difficult to either get to or find the answer, yet according to the stats page, one stage has one more find than the others and one has one find less. That one doesn't have a bonus cache so I don't get any feedback at all from anyone who doesn't complete all the stages and, even for those that do, I have to go looking if I want to see who's written an optional review. It was only this thread that prompted me to go and have a look at the stats page. Out of sight, out of mind.

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3 hours ago, kunarion said:

I asked the AL Owner, an experienced Geocacher, who told me that everybody has issues with those stages, and that it's not possible to edit, it cannot be fixed. 

That just shows, that even experienced geocachers can be absolutely clueless about core aspects of their own hobby. It doesn't come as a surprise though - I'm not only an experienced geocacher, I've also had lots of experiences with other geocachers ;) .

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3 hours ago, kunarion said:

 

But suppose I contact them, and I say it can be fixed and they say it can't.  Does it seem like ALOs are having trouble understanding how, or that it's in fact possible to fix an AL?  If they can't figure it out, there's more to it than contacting them.  And if it's totally messed up, I'll have trouble helping them unscramble it anyway.

It is absolutely trivial to edit stages of an AL. You do exactly the same as when you created the AL in the first place. Log in to the "AL Builder" website, select your AL, then the location, and change anything that needs to be changed.

In other words, there is no difference in the UI between initial creation of a location and a later update. This is IMHO as easy as it can get.

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2 hours ago, baer2006 said:

That just shows, that even experienced geocachers can be absolutely clueless about core aspects of their own hobby. It doesn't come as a surprise though - I'm not only an experienced geocacher, I've also had lots of experiences with other geocachers ;) .

 

When I tried to contact the AL Owner and discovered that I cannot do so, I was not surprised when they told me that they (the ALO) also can't edit the AL.  It seemed to me like just another glaring deficiency.  I had to contact the persons in my usual way.  I have their email address.

 

Anyway, the ability to contact someone in no way ensures that the AL gets fixed, easy or not.

 

I still think it's partly due to ordinary cachers mentioning a problem.  The ALO already knows the AL is broken.  The issue is that there's no mechanism to actually cause them to fix it.  I can tell them it's messed up, they tell me they have not fixed it.  And the Thread Topic creates a link to make that more convenient.

 

Edited by kunarion
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12 minutes ago, HHL said:

Just report the adventure as not completable, HQ will do the rest for you.

 

Now you're talkin.  An added "contact link" merely delays the process, and at worst, creates grief for ALOs.

 

But I'd still appreciate knowing in advance which ALs stink.  I hardly ever bother with them, and who knows how many other people also decided not to bother, because there's oh so much wrong here.  I don't even check to see which ones may be highly favorited.  And I therefore won't reach the point where I'd need to contact the owner, nor HQ for that matter.

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21 minutes ago, Max and 99 said:

Here are the options when you report an AL for violating the guidelines. Just fyi.

Screenshot_20230202-191902.thumb.png.8b0fe347525f01de1b007657595fe9bc.png

 

 

I think that would do.  It's not exactly "reporting it incompletable" which I don't see there as an option.  But the Location guidelines state:

 

"Locations
Make sure all Locations

Require players to physically visit Adventure Locations.
Are accessible to the public most of the week.
Have permission from the landowner or land manager.
Do not involve placing a physical object or container for the Adventure.
Cause no harm to plants, animals, or property.
Adhere to all local laws. "

 

The bolded part is at least about the stages being where the coordinates are.  So if the stages are, for example, 2 blocks away from the coords, that's a violation of the Location guidelines.  That doesn't say anything about misspelled answers or otherwise messed up stages.  If I read that "Violation Type", I might cancel my report if I merely thought the stages are screwed up, because that's not what I might interpret as a Violation Type.  Maybe there's a text box for the report, for specifics.

 

I guess the big question is, what does HQ think that ordinary Geocachers should do if a stage seems unsolvable?  We can't click a link and ask the ALO directly.  So are we expected to go research the username and try to contact them outside of the AL App?  Or do we file a Report within the App, first thing?  I ask, not because I expect that many ALs are broken, but because the only broken one I know about is still broken, and it's been a long time.  If it's just one AL, then that's no big deal, and nothing needs to be changed... people can go find all the rest just fine.

 

 

Edited by kunarion
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6 hours ago, kunarion said:

But I'd still appreciate knowing in advance which ALs stink.  I hardly ever bother with them, and who knows how many other people also decided not to bother, because there's oh so much wrong here.  I don't even check to see which ones may be highly favorited.  And I therefore won't reach the point where I'd need to contact the owner, nor HQ for that matter.

 

There are some COs whose caches are good fun, well cared for and promptly fixed whenever there's a problem. Some of them have also created ALs, as their profile shows how many AL stages they own, and I'd expect they'd also be pretty good. BUT it doesn't say which ones are theirs! The only way to find that out is if they've added bonus caches or to guess where they might be and check each AL in that region one by one until finding one of theirs.

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20 hours ago, lefisher said:

I did a sequential AL yesterday.  It was not a pleasant experience.  At Stage 4 the notice board is missing. Many people have mentioned this in their logs but I assume that the owner has no idea.  Obviously, if one cannot figure out the answer then, as it is sequential, the AL cannot be completed. Apart from that I believe there should be a good reason to make an AL sequential. Especially when there is a choice of parking places.

I lost sight of my original point when I wrote the above.  It was that when anyone completes one of my ALs I do not get any notification.  Every now and then I have to make a conscious decision to go back to my ALs to read the logs.  Otherwise I would have no idea if stage info was missing.

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18 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

There are some COs whose caches are good fun, well cared for and promptly fixed whenever there's a problem. Some of them have also created ALs, as their profile shows how many AL stages they own, and I'd expect they'd also be pretty good. BUT it doesn't say which ones are theirs! The only way to find that out is if they've added bonus caches or to guess where they might be and check each AL in that region one by one until finding one of theirs.

If you look at their profile on the app it tells you which adventures they have published.

Screenshot_20230203-191708.thumb.png.274caa828dd58d709a8e8b48cb0f3a51.png

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