+firennice Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 I was told many years ago, speaking with a lackey, that benchmarks were going away. It was before it was relegated to the bottom of the page, where it is now. There were far too few people using it then. The cost to rewrite the code was far higher than the member fees of the people that use that portion of the site. It did not go away, they had not needed to touch that code at that time, but it was moved and not made a focus. So they are finally at a point where the code needs to be updated for future projects. It can't be left alone because it will impact those projects. I am thankful for the extra 7-8 years that I had with it, but i understand the sadness of others. I have a number of caches I found standing on a benchmark, and never logged the benchmarks. Just like tens of thousands of other cachers. 6 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Johannis10 Posted November 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2022 Page 1: On 10/17/2022 at 9:30 PM, The Snowdog said: That is truly unfortunate. On 10/17/2022 at 9:44 PM, trekkerdmc said: I am very disappointed On 10/17/2022 at 9:55 PM, Forest-Ghost said: extremely disappointing On 10/17/2022 at 10:04 PM, elrojo14 said: a huge disservice On 10/17/2022 at 10:47 PM, Run&Hike said: This is disappointing! On 10/17/2022 at 11:58 PM, sillywillie said: Very disappointed On 10/18/2022 at 12:00 AM, Stachey Pete said: Poorly conceived On 10/18/2022 at 12:05 AM, Chalupa_Dad said: I will miss it On 10/18/2022 at 12:46 AM, bluesnote said: This decision is such a disappointment On 10/18/2022 at 1:57 AM, The Snowdog said: great loss On 10/18/2022 at 2:39 AM, Nylimb said: reconsider this decision On 10/18/2022 at 2:41 AM, dprovan said: I'm also disappointed On 10/18/2022 at 3:38 AM, DragonsWest said: I'll miss benchmarking On 10/18/2022 at 3:41 AM, cachestacker said: cancel it for no reason whatsoever with nominal notice and call it 'progress' On 10/18/2022 at 5:52 AM, Web-ling said: Very disappointed On 10/18/2022 at 7:29 AM, bluesnote said: All we (the community) are asking is not to remove them On 10/18/2022 at 10:40 AM, Hynz said: I'm strongly opposing On 10/18/2022 at 1:45 PM, lullabye4u said: Very disappointed. On 10/18/2022 at 3:37 PM, steve.n.erin said: Please, at the very least, I beg you: don't remove our logs and our photos On 10/18/2022 at 4:50 PM, chaosmanor said: request that GC-HQ rethink this decision On 10/18/2022 at 10:56 PM, Vixen42 said: Oh this is so sad @Geocaching HQAnyone can have a strange idea but the smart ones listen to good advice. 11 3 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post +jaylous1 Posted November 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2022 Say it ain't so! I just found out. Groundspeak, Please reconsider! This is one of the last pure aspects of geocaching. Yes, nobody "owns" them, that is why we love them. Why not worry about careless drop-down replacements, power-trails not maintained, fake 5-star difficulty/terrain caches, just to fill out a chart? Well, because you can't. The game is what people make it. Real cachers or armchair cachers. The average quality of geocaching has steadily declined in my 15 years of geocaching, but I continue to make it into something I enjoy, albeit quite different than what I first fell in love with.....hmmm that sounds weird, but I digress. Anyway, please reconsider your actions on this matter. 12 1 Link to comment
Johannis10 Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 On 10/18/2022 at 2:53 AM, sammydee said: I guess we have a month to scrape database off the website and host it somewhere else then. Since Groundspeak doesn't care about it and it's public data anyway I'm sure they will have no objection. On 10/18/2022 at 7:19 PM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said: Scraping the website constitutes a violation of the terms of use... This is not a law of nature. GS can allow this, if they don't want to annoy their customers unnecessarily. If GS no longer wants to play along, it would be appropriate if GS at least did not prevent the others from doing so. 7 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Johannis10 Posted November 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2022 A few friends are playing a board game together. At some point, the game leader doesn't feel like playing anymore. The others try to convince him to at least continue playing for their sake or to compensate him financially. But he refuses. When they suggest to continue playing the game without him and to look for a new game leader, he refuses to allow this and throws the board game over. 8 1 2 Link to comment
+Sammydogs Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 We are so unhappy and disappointed to hear that benchmarks will no longer be on geocaching. It is part of geocaching to us and we enjoy finding them and have put in a photo for every one we have found. It is fun to find benchmarks and even exciting if they are old or haven't been found in a long time. We had a goal of finding 1,000 and now our count is 947 benchmarks. So now there is not enough time to find 53 more. Of course, after we had reached our goal, we planned on continuing hunting for benchmarks. It takes extra effort and research to find a benchmark. First you have to find ones in the area you are going. We used the link to nearby benchmarks on a cache page to find ones where we would be geocaching. Then sifted through them to find ones we thought we could find. We printed photos, if available, of the ones we were going to try to find because sometimes the cords were not exactly right and we had to "hunt" for them. After we found one, then we took a photo and posted it and our find log on geocaching. It was very satisfying to find them. Beside not having benchmarks to find anymore, it doesn't seem right that our benchmark statistics, photos and logs will just be gone. With benchmarks gone from Geocaching, if we try to find them on Waypoints, how will we know which ones we have found? We know if geocaching has decided to get rid of benchmarks, they will. It won't matter that some geocachers love finding them and will be quite sad. It won't matter that to some an important part of the game is gone. It seems that benchmarks just don't matter anymore. That's too bad. 7 2 Link to comment
Popular Post +InGodsHands Posted November 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 3, 2022 Another bad decision from Geocaching.com just like when they said the virtuals were finished - then they had to reverse themselves when they listened to their users. Many people have invested a lot of time in benchmarking and the USA is a large & favorite place for international geocachers/benchmarkers (from Canada and Europe). This seems to be another short-sighted, under-researched idea from the central systems group that struggles to make changes that improve functionality. They seem to be more interested in shrinking the scope of things they have to support (not that they have supported benchmarks very well at all in the past). Eventually, I'll let my Premium membership lapse because they keep providing less and less of what I value. I do not do Lab caches and GeoTours so all their work in these areas is lost on me. I do many benchmarks so this proposed change will affect me. 8 2 Link to comment
+dprovan Posted November 3, 2022 Share Posted November 3, 2022 On 10/31/2022 at 1:03 PM, niraD said: Thus, Waymarking doesn't get in the way of updates to the geocaching.com site, whereas Benchmarking shares the infrastructure used by other parts of the geocaching.com site, and gets in the way of updates to that shared infrastructure. It's easy to see how people can be puzzled by this since the benchmarking interface is almost exactly like it was when I started geocaching in 2010 except for occasionally removing features. Geocaches, on the other hand, have changed a great deal both in user interface and database capabilities. Benchmarking seems entirely distinct. Naturally I have no idea what's going on under the covers, but it's hard to understand how two features that are so different could share a lot of infrastructure. And notice they didn't say it would be hard to make benchmarking independent, just that it would be more effort than killing it off. That's their choice, of course. 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post +JL_HSTRE Posted November 4, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 4, 2022 I have 142 BMs logged in 12 years of caching. Some I searched for, mostly were incidental, a few hadn't been logged on the NGS site in the 21st century. Geocaching.com is what made me aware of benchmarks and led me to understanding them. I notice them in a way I didn't before. It was an important stepping stone on the way to a general awareness of surveying that has been personally interesting and sometimes professionally relevant. In my day job as a historian, I've spoken about surveying history to professional surveyors, who are happy to meet someone who has a clue about what they do. Without geocaching.com's benchmark database, my understanding would have been years behind. 1. This day has been coming for a long time and its a self-fulfilling prophecy. Some years ago (2015?), Groundspeak essentially buried Benchmarks on the site on the basis of them not getting much use. So it's no surprise use has declined further since then. That Groundspeak never really updated the benchmark interface from the early days of the site and literally never updated the BM database on the site contributed to making it less appealing. One frustration I've had with benchmarks is how many I come across that are non-NGS marks and thus not on geocaching.com Army Corps of Engineers has its own marks, and in my area there are lots of local surveyor marks (disks, not just nails with flags). 2. Benchmarks have been available for a long time on Waymarking, but the different nature of the database makes it less appealing. (This site had all the NGS benchmarks; Waymarking doesn't have a benchmark until a user finds and adds it.) Additionally, Waymarking has not really been supported by Groundspeak in a long time. The website is old, and even though it's almost 2023 there's still no Android Waymarking app! Waymarking is surely in its own slow downward spiral where it doesn't get support because it isn't used enough so people aren't inclined to use it. 3. A lot of people posting in this thread don't seem to have a clue about the technical side of a website like geocaching.com and are struggling to grasp why benchmarks are being removed. 4. While I enjoy benchmarking, I understand why benchmarks are going away, and I don't feel I can even argue it's the wrong decision to do so. What I find frustrating is the why (the aforementioned self-fulfilling death spiral, not the technical issues) and how this decision has come about. With regard to the latter, I mean that this feels like yet another instance of Groundspeak deciding to get rid of a feature with little to no warning and seemingly without taking council of users beforehand. I wish Groundspeak had made a good-faith effort to support and promote benchmarking years ago and, if use still dwindled, to make a more transparent management decision to say: "We're thinking of getting rid of this niche part of the hobby. Here's why. Please give us your thoughts, including ideas on how we might keep it around while addressing the issues we have. If we can't figure out a solution and the numbers don't go up enough it's getting the axe." We can't try to help solve a problem we don't know exists. 9 2 Link to comment
+mineral54 Posted November 4, 2022 Share Posted November 4, 2022 Keystone, I have tried to add waymarks to Waymarking.com and it is a super difficult process for me. I have added historical markers to the HMDB website and their form is really easy to understand and fill out. Waymarking not so easy to understand, and no one to help with figuring it out. 3 1 Link to comment
+oakwilt Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 I'm sorry to see benchmarks are going to be removed. I enjoy looking for them and logging them for challenges. I my opinion I think the database for benchmarks should be updated. There are so many newer benchmarks that aren't loggable on geocaching because of an outdated database. If the database were updated more cachers would look for them. Right now if you stumble across a benchmark and try to log it it probably isn't listed on the geocaching site. Gone are the days of long hikes and ammo-cans. I'm glad I got to experience geocaching as it was original setup to be. 8 Link to comment
+Max and 99 Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 20 hours ago, mineral54 said: Keystone, I have tried to add waymarks to Waymarking.com and it is a super difficult process for me. I have added historical markers to the HMDB website and their form is really easy to understand and fill out. Waymarking not so easy to understand, and no one to help with figuring it out. There most certainly is someone to help you figure it out. I have found the officers quite helpful any time I had questions about a benchmark waymark. 2 Link to comment
+tumbleweed2 Posted November 6, 2022 Share Posted November 6, 2022 Sorry to hear this, just as I was sorry when they stopped allowing new Virtual Cache placements, ( in the old style). I don't often search for Benchmarks, but do occasionally when Caches are not in an area, or I have found all the current caches there. I was thrilled to have discovered one as FTF since it was put out around 1935 . Please reconsider re-establishing Benchmarks, and adding to the list, since many were not included in the original list. 5 1 Link to comment
+Crazy4horses Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 I think the main reason benchmarks were not more popular is because they do not show up on the smartphone geocaching apps. You could be standing on top of one and not know it. I did enjoy doing them because they were harder to find. As someone pointed out in remote rural areas benchmarks can be the only thing there to hunt . They are still there untouched by development. 4 Link to comment
+The Snowdog Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 Don't know when it actually happened, but "Find nearby benchmarks" finally dropped off the (old view) page. I never opted in to the "new" page so no idea what it even looked like there. So sad to see it go. But I could still see my old benchmark logs. 1 Link to comment
+CAVinoGal Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 On 11/7/2022 at 5:17 PM, The Snowdog said: Don't know when it actually happened, but "Find nearby benchmarks" finally dropped off the (old view) page. I never opted in to the "new" page so no idea what it even looked like there. So sad to see it go. But I could still see my old benchmark logs. On the cache pages, it is still there (website) - 3 Link to comment
+The Snowdog Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 24 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said: On the cache pages, it is still there (website) - Hmmm, I could swear it was gone for a while. Are they having second thoughts? Is there a chance? 1 Link to comment
Moun10Bike Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 1 minute ago, The Snowdog said: Hmmm, I could swear it was gone for a while. Are they having second thoughts? Is there a chance? Were you by chance looking at a cache outside of the US? 2 Link to comment
+Max and 99 Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 58 minutes ago, CAVinoGal said: On the cache pages, it is still there (website) - I also see it on the old dashboard today. 1 Link to comment
Keystone Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 As a reminder, stories and photos about individual benchmarking adventures can still be posted to the Benchmarking Forum section. A number of off topic posts have been hidden from view. 1 Link to comment
MRC1925T Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 12 hours ago, The Snowdog said: Hmmm, I could swear it was gone for a while. Are they having second thoughts? Is there a chance? I certainly hope so. There's so much interesting history behind those benchmarks and it's invaluable what people could learn from them. In fact, there were a couple of benchmarks that I found, not too far from where I live, and the datasheet described the roads that the benchmark was near as "a dirt road". Of course, that was over 50 years ago and the roads are now paved. I found another one that was embedded near the steps of what used to be a high school. It's now a cultural center and there's even a nearby plaque describing the change. What's also interesting are the posted coordinates and what they are today. I found one that was 185' off. There was additional information on the datasheet to help pinpoint the benchmark, similar to landmarks on finding a letterbox cache. It amazes me how coordinate accuracy has improved. HQ wants to move benchmarking over to their Waymarking site, but I find that website to be old and outdated. I used it for a short-time in 2008 when Virtuals were retired and looked again recently, and my opinion hasn't changed. There are certainly a lot of Waymarks listed but I don't see a lot of logged finds. I don't know about other people but I'm not in favor of using several websites to log finds. That would be the equivalent of going to several grocery stores to purchase groceries instead of going to one. 5 1 1 1 Link to comment
+Isonzo Karst Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 5 hours ago, MRC1925T said: HQ wants to move benchmarking over to their Waymarking site Hmm, no? it has merely been suggested that benchmarks can be created and/or logged on Waymarking. 1 1 Link to comment
+JL_HSTRE Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 5 hours ago, MRC1925T said: HQ wants to move benchmarking over to their Waymarking site, but I find that website to be old and outdated. So is the benchmarking portion of geocaching.com 2 Link to comment
+Rose Red Posted November 10, 2022 Share Posted November 10, 2022 I was shocked when I recently heard the news. I am deeply disappointed! It is such a thrill to find a Benchmark that has been listed as Missing or Destroyed or has not been found in simply ages. Benchmarking is a great addition to my travels. I pay more attention to the countryside as well as state and government buildings, water tanks with names of towns and cities painted on the side, smokestacks near famous sites (i.e. where the ammunition train was destroyed in Atlanta during the War Between the States), churches and cathedrals, bridges (some quite famous), etc. when searching for Benchmarks. 3 1 3 Link to comment
Popular Post +yellow1961 Posted November 11, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 11, 2022 Being nostalgic, I guess, and thinking that the geodetic survey appreciated our logs to let them know that bench marks are still there. They are THE physical connection we, as geocachers, have to connect us with the latitude and longitude grid lines of the earth. Years ago one of my logs was copied to a datasheet. A few weeks ago several of us were 'FTF' on benchmarks set in the 1940's. While waiting in line at the ferry to Port Townsend I saw that the ONLY photos posted on a datasheet were taken from a log submitted by a geocacher. What a disappointment that our contributions to that will no longer be available to them. I feel that it's shame on us for withdrawing that support. 7 1 3 Link to comment
+JL_HSTRE Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 5 hours ago, yellow1961 said: What a disappointment that our contributions to that will no longer be available to them. They will be available. Geocachers had to submit a separate log via the NGS website for it to appear in the datasheet and that option isn't going away. 1 2 Link to comment
+GrateBear Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 I'm likely one of the few who will not miss them. I found it frustrating to come across one well away from where I live, then try to find it in a list to actually log it. That never worked well for me. I was probably doing something wrong. 2 Link to comment
+BubbaJuice Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 On 11/11/2022 at 5:06 AM, JL_HSTRE said: They will be available. Geocachers had to submit a separate log via the NGS website for it to appear in the datasheet and that option isn't going away. While we can still submit logs to the NGS, all of the previous data from the benchmarks people have logged on the geocaching website will be lost to time. 5 Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 5 hours ago, BubbaJuice said: While we can still submit logs to the NGS, all of the previous data from the benchmarks people have logged on the geocaching website will be lost to time. It is called Complete Deletion of anything benchmark on GC. It was like when people had and found Locationless Caches = Delete. Simple. I still think that the Geocachers should get to vote on whether or not that complete sections of GC be deleted. But, I have been proven wrong on the LC's and now the Benchmarking. It was glorious while both of those lasted. Just saying. 4 1 Link to comment
Popular Post +kittyshrink Posted November 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2022 "Many benchmark listings refer to marks that were removed or destroyed long ago, which makes for an uneven game experience." 1) Those *known* to have been destroyed or removed are *marked* as such, either in geocacher logs or (more importantly) in the Description. 2) As for those *not known* to have been destroyed/removed: How exactly is that any different than the experience of geocaching itself? You look for something that's supposed to be there and it isn't there. You log that it isn't there so others won't waste their time looking for it. Geocache experience = Benchmark experience. This is a bs explanation. If you're trying to save server space/$$ by removing a database not used by most *younger* players (because no one has pointed it out to them or explained what it is/how to do it), then just say so. 6 1 1 3 Link to comment
+The Snowdog Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 11:24 AM, Moun10Bike said: Were you by chance looking at a cache outside of the US? LOL I bet that was it, I was doing a bunch of waymarks from my recent trip to Brazil and could have clicked on one of those caches. Link to comment
+Ernmark Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 10:42 PM, Keystone said: As a reminder, stories and photos about individual benchmarking adventures can still be posted to the Benchmarking Forum section. A number of off topic posts have been hidden from view. U.S. Benchmarks leader over at Waymarking here again - so what happens to all the www.geocaching.com/mark links in the forums AND on the existing waymarks that reference them as well? I'd hazard a guess that 70% of the submissions on WM link back to the BMs on GC... 4 Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 34 minutes ago, Ernmark said: U.S. Benchmarks leader over at Waymarking here again - so what happens to all the www.geocaching.com/mark links in the forums AND on the existing waymarks that reference them as well? I'd hazard a guess that 70% of the submissions on WM link back to the BMs on GC... By Jove, My Dear Watson, you have hit the nail on the head. If we were to transfer the info from our benchmarking finds onto Waymarking, they will probably be non-functional due to the links to Benchmark hunting being deleted. So it would be a waste of time for each of us to try to save that info by just transferring by clicking and moving it. So, if we were to want to try to save any of our logs, we would have to retype each and every one and upload new pictures also. With so many logs that, my dear Watson, would be undo-able in the amount of time they have given us. That is why it seems that was just thrown out to the benchmark crowd to seem like there was a solution. But if it was that easy, the powers that be could have just transferred all of data over to Waymarking themselves. Just saying... It is just another feature of GC that will be deleted like Locationless Caches, and others that they just decide for whatever reasons to delete without the members getting to vote on the matter. Plain and simple. 7 1 Link to comment
+Gabrielol Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Since my response is to the moderators of the site and Groundspeak et al., I will post this here weeks after the main discussion has passed. Like all of my logs, this is mostly just a rant. I... support the decision! The sport/game/hobby of geocaching has existed for so long, its long term survival outweighs what some users think about the more antiquated elements of it. I would argue benchmarking is not a priority for many users, only partially because Groundspeak has relegated it to obscurity on the website for years. Beginners, who are important customers to expand the product, don't seem to be flocking toward benchmarks. My area has been dominated by loop-holers focused more on statistics than unique hunts and only seem to log benchmarks when they can get a challenge cache out of it. The 0.13% statistic that was paraded around is probably an understatement, but I do not see the logic of paying to support something so little of the general population cares about. A majority of my gripes are not with Groundspeak's decision but the rotten system of global capitalism and the myth of unlimited business growth. Low interest, sadly, equals low profitability and thus elimination. The archivist aspect is the main element that is tragic in all this, for me. But this is a symptom of the internet at large- huge portions of the web are just being lost to the wind and almost no one seems to care. Geocaching has now outlasted web 1.0, 2.0 and if the impending demise of twitter is any indication, 3.0 as well. One of its most valuable elements then are the logs from a pre-cell phone age. There are inactive users who commented on benchmarks and their logs will be lost forever. That sucks. While scraping page by page through The Internet Archive is a great idea, it's not practical. I'll try anyway. It's not a defense of the decision, but reality. Burying the lede here, but Benchmarking is/was one my favorite elements of Geocaching. I think it is profoundly interesting from a historical aspect, and many of my most memorable experiences with caching overall have been hunting remote benchmarks. I was annoyed with how old the datasheet was and just how many of the marks were actually destroyed. Especially living in an urban area, where mindless sprawl and that myth of unlimited growth have destroyed many of these disks. But the ones I did find were fun, even if it was impossible to combine that experience into any sort of phone application. Of the 84 I found so far, 56 (66%) have been radio/water towers, cupolas, domes, flagpoles, or just tall buildings. These are a majority of the benchmarks I've noticed other users have logged. Which is logical- they are the most easily accessible. But I would also argue, not entirely worth it. For those above me who complain about lamp post hides, these categories of benchmarking are very much in the same vein. I do not want to gatekeep against either as that would be hypocritical. I strive to give my logs as much depth and information as possible, but it's pretty obvious that a State Capitol dome is "in good shape". Which leaves the other 32 (34%) of my finds- bench mark discs themselves. This is what I'll- and others here- will truly miss. I think that the amount of marks logged as missing or never logged at all are vast. That sort of eliminates the ease of accessibility. Of those 32 disks, a third of them have been found less than five times. I am the most recent finder on all of those for the past eighteen months. I was happy to recognize one of those other finders in these comments, and empathize with their disappointment, but this doesn't eliminate benchmarking. It just pushes it to a much less popular website. This is by no means the end of my benchmarking. It's just the end of me keeping track of my benchmarking online- my disapointments with Waymarking are a separate rant entirely. Talk all you want about how the best things in life are worth the challenge, but from a business model perspective it's not marketable. Which goes back to my hatred of the "game" (capitalism) not the "player" (Groundspeak) trying to promote and protect Geocaching. So in summary, while I love benchmarking, I can understand why Groundspeak would phase it out. Because it's a niche, mostly unrelated element to geocaching at large. 4 2 Link to comment
+dprovan Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 12 hours ago, Gabrielol said: The sport/game/hobby of geocaching has existed for so long, its long term survival outweighs what some users think about the more antiquated elements of it. I have a hard time believing geocaching's longterm survival depends on eliminating benchmarking. Other than that, I think your points are reasonable. I can't say I support the decision, but for the reasons you cite, I agree it's GS's decision to make. 3 1 Link to comment
+JL_HSTRE Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 On 11/14/2022 at 12:01 PM, 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) said: It is just another feature of GC that will be deleted like Locationless Caches, and others that they just decide for whatever reasons to delete without the members getting to vote on the matter. Locationless caches weren't deleted, just locked. While I want Groundspeak to be more transparent and less abrupt in their decision making, they are a business not a democracy. Next person to start a GPS game as a nonprofit organization with voting membership will be the first, AFAIK. On 11/12/2022 at 11:22 AM, BubbaJuice said: While we can still submit logs to the NGS, all of the previous data from the benchmarks people have logged on the geocaching website will be lost to time. I was replying to someone who lamented the logs here would no longer be available to surveyors. Surveyors and any other professionals are only going to check the NGS database. They don't check the benchmark logs here or on Waymarking; that's purely for hobbyists. 2 Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said: Locationless caches weren't deleted, just locked. While I want Groundspeak to be more transparent and less abrupt in their decision making, they are a business not a democracy. Next person to start a GPS game as a nonprofit organization with voting membership will be the first, AFAIK. I was replying to someone who lamented the logs here would no longer be available to surveyors. Surveyors and any other professionals are only going to check the NGS database. They don't check the benchmark logs here or on Waymarking; that's purely for hobbyists. Sooo, if the Locationless caches weren't deleted, where are they? Also, I know it is a business, but businesses need to listen to their customers otherwise they will slowly but surly, not have that business after disappointing said customers being treated wrongly in the eyes of said customers. Plus, the head NGS Surveyor and others were constantly on the Benchmarking Forums to check on the errors we found (we had Dave D and a couple of others) that would check our logs here on GC and update their existing NGS data without our posting on the NGS ourselves. That happened in many cases. Now, there will no longer be that small back and forth ever again. We felt we had something extra here that in it's small way, was actually doing something good instead of just going out and leaving caches all over the world as a game. So, do not belittle the importance of Benchmark Hunting and our small part with harvesting information. Edited November 19, 2022 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Old age is my reason for this edit. 7 1 1 Link to comment
Keystone Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 Locationless caches haven't been "deleted," so let's abandon that inapposite analogy. For example, here is a link to the locationless caches found by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders). This can be accessed from the "Geocaches" tab on the user's public profile page, and locationless finds continue to show up in a "All My Finds" pocket query. There are also three active locationless caches available for logging (though two of them are scheduled to be archived and locked on January 1, 2023, as previously announced). 3 2 Link to comment
+niraD Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 32 minutes ago, Keystone said: Locationless caches haven't been "deleted," so let's abandon that inapposite analogy. Yes, a better analogy would be the way Geocaching Challenges (not to be confused with challenge caches) were retired. 1 2 Link to comment
+Aix sponsa Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 I doubt it will make in difference but I will put in my two cents worth. I, too, would rather not see benchmarking go away or the challenges that encourage geocachers to seek them out. I live in a very rural area. Apart from a few caches that I am saving for a souvenir or whatever else may pop up, I have to drive over an hour one way to find a geocache. If my dog and I wish to go hiking closer to home we can search for benchmarks. Adventure Labs are generally placed in locations where a person drives up to them or close. This doesn't encourage hiking or quality time with my dog. I have found numerous benchmarks and enjoyed the challenge and exercise to find them. It has been fun finding benchmark named with unique names like HOCKEY at the Hockey Hall of Fame. I would rather see them handled like the labs. One gets credit for a find but it doesn't affect your D/T rating. 6 1 1 Link to comment
+ganseyiii Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 Incredibly sad to find out that benchmarks on Geocaching are going away. I'd much rather use old datasheets to track down a physical survey disk—a tangible part of history—than answer questions in a virtual Adventure Lab. Maybe more players would use the function if it hadn't been hidden away on the site; I only found out about it myself last year, and though I haven't logged as many as some users here it's always a delight to find benchmarks out in the wild. I understand that there are technological reasons behind the change (to update code/make room for a new project), but given that the latest new feature was ALs I can't say I'm looking forward to whatever is coming next. I wish HQ would reconsider. 6 1 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post +BlueMoth Posted November 23, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2022 I have just finished saving all 900 of my and my caching partner's logs and over 3,000 photos from benchmarks I/we found. It is still not sorted. That will take another month. If someone had not alerted me on Oct 30th that benchmarks were being scrapped from the geocaching website, I would have woken up one morning to find out too late to save anything. What was the thinking behind this long slothful slouch to the hurried end? It is unfathomable. And how could GS announce it right before the holidays when most of us are busy with family matters. Were they hoping no one would notice or care? I believe minimal community input actually was the goal of this abrupt announcement. If that is true, it succeeded. And how many unaware are going to wake up one morning to find nothing left but their find count? I sent as many pms to people I thought would want to know. But I shouldn't have had to do that. A mass email to the community should have been sent. A simple six month courtesy notice would have gone a long way to mitigate the fury I have been feeling this past month. As I progressed in my task of saving all my finds over the last weeks, not knowing if this day would be the last one I had to save anything, I thought a lot about this purge and came to the realization that for many years now, GS has given up being the stewards of the game and appointed itself its driver instead. My friend said in an earlier post on this thread that his friend was always saying that GS is constantly taking away things we want and giving us things we don't want and never asked for. That friend he was talking about is me. I've been saying that for 7 yrs, and I'll say this now, that attitude is going to be the eventual death of geocaching because GS is so focused on being the driver they forgot how to be the steward. What GS can't see is that in their attempt to attract the inattentive newbie gadfly with all the shiny objects they dangle out there they keep driving away their longtime paying customers because they are doing it at the expense of things that are useful, needful and enjoyable to us as committed paying geocachers. Some people on this thread have said they have had enough and will not be renewing their pmo. Can GS afford this continuing trend? What will be the next thing to go? Benchmark hunters are angry and disappointed now. Who will GS anger next? Will the gadflies pony up the $30 a year for their few days or six months of a lark? No, most of them will be on to whatever next catches their attention. And here we are. With another soon to be announced trinket for the gadflies. As to ease of use/logging finds and benchmarking apps, there have been in the past, and are also current Groundspeak supported benchmark hunting apps for both iPhones and android that link the USGS data base to Geocaching.com so you can find benchmarks and log your finds directly onto the Geocaching.com website in the field. I suppose the developers pay GS a fee for that link. Now it will soon be gone. I do not know what will happen to these apps in the future. What if GS had developed one of their own? What if. What if... Benchmark hunting is the mother of both virtual caches and adventure labs. What a shame it was never recognized and promoted as such. Think of all the swag, T-shirts, coins, pins, tags etc GS could have sold in their store and profited off of and earmarked for the update of the benchmark data base. Because we all know money is the bottom line for decisions like this. So, as GS sits in its lofty ivory tower in the shadow of the Space Needle, one of the most iconic benchmarks on the planet, and of which you can find a plethora of reproductions at any tourist shop in Seattle, I hope they reflect on the wasted opportunity they always had in their hand. 5 1 2 13 Link to comment
+Viajero Perdido Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 4 hours ago, BlueMoth said: Benchmark hunting is the mother of both virtual caches and adventure labs Benchmarking (or rather, the equivalent we had in Canada) was the only one of those that stoked my passion. The latter two bore me to tears. If you need me, I'll be out looking for tangible stuff. 5 1 1 Link to comment
+OCamera Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 (edited) The comment of “iconic benchmarks” and “missed opportunities” started me thinking. Maybe it isn’t too late for HQ to turn this “retirement” around and make it into a profitable venture. If HQ just looked at the short list of popular benchmarks below, they can see how many visitors they get per year. If the benchmarking part of the website was updated and the activity of benchmarking was marketed well (through miniature reproduction landmark trackables, shaped pins, etc.), there would be a potential for a large revenue stream. Empire State Building (N 40° 44.906, W 073° 59.139) – 4 million visitors Statue of Liberty (N 40° 41.350, W 074° 02.673) – 4 million visitors Space Needle (N 47° 37.230, W 122° 20.957) – 1.3 million visitors Washington Monument (N 38° 53.368, W 077° 02.114) – 7 million visitors Golden Gate Bridge North Pier (N 37° 49.530, W 122° 28.753) & South Pier (N 37° 48.840, W 122° 28.672) – 10 million visitors Edited November 27, 2022 by OCamera 3 2 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted November 28, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, OCamera said: The comment of “iconic benchmarks” and “missed opportunities” started me thinking. Maybe it isn’t too late for HQ to turn this “retirement” around and make it into a profitable venture. If HQ just looked at the short list of popular benchmarks below, they can see how many visitors they get per year. If the benchmarking part of the website was updated and the activity of benchmarking was marketed well (through miniature reproduction landmark trackables, shaped pins, etc.), there would be a potential for a large revenue stream. Empire State Building (N 40° 44.906, W 073° 59.139) – 4 million visitors Statue of Liberty (N 40° 41.350, W 074° 02.673) – 4 million visitors Space Needle (N 47° 37.230, W 122° 20.957) – 1.3 million visitors Washington Monument (N 38° 53.368, W 077° 02.114) – 7 million visitors Golden Gate Bridge North Pier (N 37° 49.530, W 122° 28.753) & South Pier (N 37° 48.840, W 122° 28.672) – 10 million visitors I used to live in Page, AZ. where it is the hub of several National parks and our little town had over 5 million visitors to our small town, where they have built many motels now. There is the Watchtower inside the South Rim of the Grand Canyon National Park that is a benchmark in itself. And at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon National Park, there are many well logged marks regular and some spectacular that were being logged over and over, to make the enjoyment of just being at these wonderful parks, the same also apply at Bryce National Park, and Zion National Park as well where millions of people visit each year. There is another mark between Page and heading north along highway 89 that you can pull over to log Mollies Nipple. A now famous mountain peak that is a benchmark that can be seen there and from Brice NP and other places. We have a wonderful country that has many things to do. The National Parks have learned that many people have been finding and logging benchmarks, so they sell replicas of those that within the National parks, and make a goodly amount off of those, we 2oldfarts ( the rockhounders) bought several to give away to the winners of the contests we had in the Benchmarking forums. GC could have been making money off of that kind of replicas plus keychains with small benchmarks or necklaces or stationary with Benchmarking logos. So many ways to pull in money off of our sport that you did not take advantage of. You could have made money off of our sport, not hide it. Not belittle it. NGS felt it important enough they had a locked thread at the top to explain how to go the NGS site and how to send in recoveries to them. You act like we were not an important part of GC, but you are wrong. It was a sport that was more important than any geocache could ever be. Shirley, what is left of the 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) and now 1oldfart somewhere. where it matters. If you would like to know where, just contact me. Edited November 28, 2022 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) 7 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post +Skyboy01 Posted November 30, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2022 The retirement of Benchmarks is intentional and has been in the works for years. When I first began Geoing nearly 20 years ago, Benchmarks were easy to search. After a while, they were displayed in a way that made them less visible or searchable. I think Benchmarks should be kept as an option and the tab made more visible on the cache page. 9 1 Link to comment
+JL_HSTRE Posted December 1, 2022 Share Posted December 1, 2022 On 11/23/2022 at 5:31 PM, BlueMoth said: And how could GS announce it right before the holidays when most of us are busy with family matters. Were they hoping no one would notice or care? I believe minimal community input actually was the goal of this abrupt announcement. If that is true, it succeeded. And how many unaware are going to wake up one morning to find nothing left but their find count? The announcement was made in mid-October. You consider 5 1/2 weeks before Thanksgiving to be "right before the holidays"? Considering the vast majority of geocachers don't visit the forums it certainly did fly under the radar. Was it ever mentioned in the weekly emails from Groundspeak? On 11/23/2022 at 5:31 PM, BlueMoth said: My friend said in an earlier post on this thread that his friend was always saying that GS is constantly taking away things we want and giving us things we don't want and never asked for. That friend he was talking about is me. I've been saying that for 7 yrs, and I'll say this now, that attitude is going to be the eventual death of geocaching because GS is so focused on being the driver they forgot how to be the steward. What GS can't see is that in their attempt to attract the inattentive newbie gadfly with all the shiny objects they dangle out there they keep driving away their longtime paying customers because they are doing it at the expense of things that are useful, needful and enjoyable to us as committed paying geocachers. Some people on this thread have said they have had enough and will not be renewing their pmo. Can GS afford this continuing trend? What will be the next thing to go? Benchmark hunters are angry and disappointed now. Who will GS anger next? Will the gadflies pony up the $30 a year for their few days or six months of a lark? No, most of them will be on to whatever next catches their attention. And here we are. With another soon to be announced trinket for the gadflies. Groundspeak is a business. Since the vast majority of their perceived customers have less than 100 lifetime Finds their decision-making is aimed primarily at those cachers. If getting rid of benchmarks costs Groundspeak 100 PMs (and I doubt it will), but new feature Groundspeak is going to roll out after getting the old benchmarking code out of the way gets them 200 new PMs that's a win for Groundspeak. And the new feature will be used worldwide instead of only in the US. Unlike most aspects of geocaching.com, Benchmarking could only ever appeal to half the customer base because of its geographical limitations. As long as Groundspeak is a for-profit business it will do what they think is best for business. Trying to keep 1% of geocachers happy isn't important for business. 2 1 Link to comment
+chaosmanor Posted December 2, 2022 Share Posted December 2, 2022 On 10/19/2022 at 1:48 AM, Hynz said: I would be interested to know how much of that information (logs, photos) produced here were accually helpfull for the NGS. Have they been using this information somehow in the past? Have they been asked if they are interested in getting the database? I can answer this, from personal experience. The NGS does not see any of the logs that are posted on the geocaching.com website. However, the NGS is *very* happy to have us submitting Recoveries. Recoveries are done through the NGS' own website. Photos can be added to these Recoveries. I have submitted over 100 Recoveries; I know of at least two other geocachers with over 500 Recoveries. The NGS has given Geocaching its own designation for Recoveries; this is no small thing. As for the database of Marks, it is actually from the NGS. The bottom line here is that, while it is true that we can still log Recoveries with the NGS, having easy access here to Mark info has been wonderful. There is nothing that will replace this: not the NGS website, not Waymarking, because neither of them make it easy to actually see where the things are *before* we come across them. They only work *after* we see them. 4 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post +Michaelcycle Posted December 3, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted December 3, 2022 18 hours ago, chaosmanor said: I can answer this, from personal experience. The NGS does not see any of the logs that are posted on the geocaching.com website. However, the NGS is *very* happy to have us submitting Recoveries. Recoveries are done through the NGS' own website. Photos can be added to these Recoveries. I have submitted over 100 Recoveries; I know of at least two other geocachers with over 500 Recoveries. The NGS has given Geocaching its own designation for Recoveries; this is no small thing. As for the database of Marks, it is actually from the NGS. The bottom line here is that, while it is true that we can still log Recoveries with the NGS, having easy access here to Mark info has been wonderful. There is nothing that will replace this: not the NGS website, not Waymarking, because neither of them make it easy to actually see where the things are *before* we come across them. They only work *after* we see them. NGS may not "see" our logs posted to geocaching.com but many of those logs have directly strengthened the NOAA database through the efforts of Dave Doyle, retired NGS chief geodetic surveyor. DaveD posted this after learning of Groundspeak's misguided decision to shutter the benchmarking section and delete the logs and photos: "Many thanks to so many who have posted great pictures and hand-held positions that I've been able to harvest and improve the quality of tens of thousands of stations in the National Spatial Reference System" That's an impressive legacy for a hobby, perhaps on par with CITO events. It really should continue. 5 1 7 Link to comment
2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Posted December 3, 2022 Share Posted December 3, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Michaelcycle said: NGS may not "see" our logs posted to geocaching.com but many of those logs have directly strengthened the NOAA database through the efforts of Dave Doyle, retired NGS chief geodetic surveyor. DaveD posted this after learning of Groundspeak's misguided decision to shutter the benchmarking section and delete the logs and photos: "Many thanks to so many who have posted great pictures and hand-held positions that I've been able to harvest and improve the quality of tens of thousands of stations in the National Spatial Reference System" That's an impressive legacy for a hobby, perhaps on par with CITO events. It really should continue. Thank you so much for posting that. We were given an Agency Code to report to the NGS as quoted below from https://www.geocaching.com/mark/#geocac "Do we have an agency code for reporting to the NGS? Yes, you can use the GEOCAC agency code for your report." Many took advantage of that code because they wanted to go that extra step. Many were just logging on the Geocaching benchmarking their finds and that was good, no matter which way you wanted to go. So, it was more important to the people than just finding caches. It meant something to us that Dave Doyle took his time to come to the Benchmarking forums to see what was going on and would often join our discussions. I understand GC's saying the code is old, but you cannot understand our reasons for updating that code to keep something that has much more meaning than anything else that GC stood for, Caching? It is taking something out in the world and leaving it somewhere for others to find and then forget. Benchmarks are permanently placed by professionals for a real reason other than a game. Keeping adding logs for said benchmarks helped to keep knowledge about what condition said benchmarks are currently in and letting NGS have that knowledge. They are strapped for help and we happily provided that to Dave D when we found something that had been logged as a did not find by a professional surveyor. At times it was more than just a game. I hope John, who died in January of 2019 is proud of me for trying my best to explain this fact of why Benchmarking matters and therefore worth the effort to update said old code and renew what could even be bigger and better than what this site had started with. By using several databases from around the world to allow everyone worldwide have the joy and wonder that was felt by everyone here on GC. It was not our fault that you (GC) did not update and bring in all of the people who had done benchmarks here in the USA and then go home to another country and started up there own databases of the benchmarks in their countries on a local level. The others have posted about the years that we had to hunt for where you had hidden Benchmarking, that was true, but we always searched and found it. You could have had just as many people hunting Benchmarks all over the world if you would have just taken the time to enhance it to include more worldwide benchmark data bases. It is your own fault, not ours that you did not make money in this area like you could have done. Shirley half of the 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Edited December 3, 2022 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) Old age is my reason for this edit. 4 1 3 Link to comment
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