Release Notes (Website: Benchmarking retirement) - October 17, 2022

[+gjhimages]

Oh No!  No more benchmarks and no more benchmark challenges!  I feel that benchmarking is another avenue for geocachers.  I have done some benchmark challenges and enjoyed looking for benchmarks.  There are millions of benchmarks available, well until November.  Yes, I know that Benchmarks do not count for caches, but neither do TB's, Waymarks, Adventure Labs (although it does show up on some stats, but are only 0/0 T/D).  Due to the fact that not very many cachers log benchmarks, will this be the same reasoning to quit Wherigo's in the future?  Please Do Not stop Wherigo's and can benchmarks be reconsidered?   Bring back new Webcams if stopping Benchmarks?     

[+Goldenwattle]

What is a benchmark? Is it just a trig, or any survey mark?

 

I asked this before, but never got a reply. I am interested. So please, what is a benchmark?

[+The_Sleuth]

To me, the beauty of Geocaching is that everyone can participate in their own way. Beyond the fundamental principles, there is no right or wrong way to geocache. Depending on if you like hard or easy, traditionals or EarthCaches, remote or in the city, etc. etc...whatever it is you want to get out of the game, you can find it.

 

It's a shame we are taking away part of the game for the sake of consistency instead of appreciating and celebrating the diversity of experiences one can have Geocaching.

[+Hügh]

23 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

What is a benchmark? Is it just a trig, or any survey mark?

 

I asked this before, but never got a reply. I am interested. So please, what is a benchmark?

I think that a benchmark can be either a survey marker or a trigonometrical point (or even a lighthouse). But in particular it is a marker point placed by the US Geological Survey for the purpose of geodetic surveys. 

 

For instance, all (?) of the mile markers along the Can/US border are benchmarks. Other than Peace Arch, Monument 74 is the only one I’ve visited. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Hügh

[Moun10Bike]

39 minutes ago, Goldenwattle said:

What is a benchmark? Is it just a trig, or any survey mark?

 

I asked this before, but never got a reply. I am interested. So please, what is a benchmark?

 

They are survey markers of any type, often brass metal disks secured to the ground or other surface. This FAQ from the US National Geodetic Survey gives more specifics: https://geodesy.noaa.gov/datasheets/SurveyMarks_FAQ.shtml

Here is a photo of one I provided to the NGS recently:

[+Ceredwyn]

I am very unhappy and pretty mad that this great caching activity is going away. And, I am really upset that not more people are upset by this! Have we really turned into a group of easy peasy arm chair cachers! Benchmarks are often a true test of 'navigation in the field' skills. Read (yes, actually read) the description and make the find! Currently, it is so easy to track my benchmark finds via geocaching.com. Too bad that soon won't be true.

As to automatically archiving all benchmark challenges - surely there's another way to document ones benchmark finds besides looking up a number on the public profile page. I suppose that was deemed too cumbersome and labor intensive to keep a stats list...but, most real cachers I know are totally into stats! Leave those challenges alone! And, for that matter, just cough up the $$ and beef up the benchmark interface! Keep the benchmarks, for goodness sakes. It's worth it!

[+The Snowdog]

I will throw in one last comment...

 

Geocaching by itself is fairly one-dimensional. But I have always found that the trio of geocaching / benchmarking / Waymarking to be a fairly fulfilling hobby because benchmarks and waymarks fold in components of history and society and culture that really add a lot to my geo trips. When I find a never-visited NGS disk and post good photos of it, I feel like I'm making a contribution to history. Deleting those logs and photos will be a loss to the historical record. And to some extent Waymarking is the same way. Waymarking has some pretty silly categories (Wal-Mart? Really?) but there are others that are meaningful. For example, I deliberately seek out WPA projects because those are prone to fall to new development and our log photos might be among the only good ones that exist of those old structures. Again, our photos are part of that historical record. But if they're doing away with benchmarking because of problems with the page code Waymarking can't be far behind; those pages are a hot mess, with issues that haven't been fixed for years. That I really dread; as I get older and less mobile I find myself doing less geocaching and more Waymarking. So when they drop Waymarking as well I believe that I just won't find geocaching alone to be interesting enough to continue in the hobby. And I say that as someone who just shelled out four grand to pick up the APE cache in Brazil a few months ago. And of course I found a couple of benchmarks there, and set many waymarks as well.

 

So there's my final .02. Make of it as you will.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by The Snowdog

[+BasicPoke]

I am very sad about the decision to remove benchmarking.  I have found hundreds of them and enjoy them very much.  I feel blind-sided by this.  What was the point of all the carefully-thought-out logs and photos?  We have put a certain amount of trust in you that our data would remain intact.  Many of these markers are not documented anywhere else.  The first step should be to disable new logging, but leave the web pages in place for a long period of time, like a year for example, so that we can save our precious info.  Or better yet, groundpspeak should export the logs and photos to a database and make it available so that someone else can re-host.  Please consider my suggestions.
Ron

[+bluesnote]

It would seem every comment here is in favor of keeping benchmarks as a part of the GC site. As others have said, I am also willing to pay more for my Premium Membership if it means benchmarks are not axed from the site. The price of a Premium Membership has not changed in the 15 years I have had it. Why not raise it slightly and use the extra funds to put more resources to revamping and preserving the benchmark database? I'm okay with that.

 

I, and many others, have been against new changes by HQ over the years. First with the updated stricter (and in my opinion less fun/enjoyable) challenges, then by allowing over saturation of ALs, and now this? To me, it would seem they are trying their best to reach a broader audience rather than trying to keep the large one they currently have. This actually makes me pretty upset and borderline mad. I urge HQ to reconsider after hearing our concerns.

[Tahosa and Sons]

This is one of those stupid decisions that will change what some cachers enjoy.   But if we are creative they can still be used to hide caches  

[+niraD]

23 minutes ago, bluesnote said:

It would seem every comment here is in favor of keeping benchmarks as a part of the GC site.

Only if you ignore the ones that aren't...

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

This is just another thing that GC is taking away from me, all of those places and logs and pictures that are just going to be deleted forever. My dead husband and I spent many hours, miles and love of a sport that is now going to be gone. I could come here and at least relive those times he and I had together. 

 

So, this is truly goodbye GC. On November 1, without our benchmarking logs and without being able to go to Off Topic to talk to friends that I had made there, there will be no reason for me to return. You have caused me many tears and heartache this year. There is nothing else you could do, as we had archived all our caches before John died in 2019. So this year you killed off, Off Topic and now Benchmark Hunting plus deleting all mention of any of the logs and the Benchmark forum as well. I have a very bad case of heartache right now, thanks to a place that we used to love coming to and where I could come to be with people who remembered John. 

 

There, I have had my say, and I know it won't mean a whit to anyone. But, it had to be said.

 

Sincerely, Shirley Bloomfield

 

[+elrojo14]

I put in a lot of effort and time into those logs. To have them just wiped out is pretty disheartening. However, I am not surprised. First the watering down of challenges, then a underhanded attack on my own challenges. This is the reason I did not host my shooting event this year. HQ does not seem to care about us anymore. Whatever it takes to keep Geocaching going with a bunch of everyone gets a prize youth that will never stay dedicated to this game. 

[+Escargoccinelles]

I do not practice benchmarking, living in Europe I didn't get the opportunity. But I read the disappointed comments here and understand their feelings. 

 

If I understand correctly, benchmarking relies on existing benchmarks. When our planet desperately needs care, I really appreciate virtual caches and Adventure Labs, because they are opportunities to play geocaching without any plastic left everywhere...

 

Maybe benchmarking needs to be improved rather than just erased ? Even if some of us can't do it. I will not get access to T5 or far away caches either, that's part of the game ! 

[+Hynz]

I would be interested to know how much of that information (logs, photos) produced here were accually helpfull for the NGS.

Have they been using this information somehow in the past?

Have they been asked if they are interested in getting the database?

[Nylimb]

20 hours ago, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

You and all others who feels strongly about their benchmark logs and photos have some time to save them for yourself.

Can you be more specific about how much time we have?  Saying "Sometime after November 1, 2022 and before the end of the year" isn't very helpful.

 

Saving just the logs won't take too long.  I can open each one in my browser and save it as an HTML file.  But the photos are more of a problem.  I have to click on the smallest version at the bottom of a log to make it show up as a medium sized version, then click on that to get the large version, and then save that to a JPG file.  If I knew that the photos weren't going to be deleted, I could skip that.  Each HTML file contains the URLs of the associated photos, so I can still view them (for now) by opening the file.

 

So will you please let us know if the photos going to be removed?

[+BryantsofTR]

Leave the challenge caches grandfathered!!!!

 

Why archive the challenge caches?  It sucks that you are taking away an aspect of the game by removing benchmark logging, but there's no reason to remove the associated challenge caches.  There are probably plenty of geocachers out there that would qualify for the challenges, they should be grandfathered and allowed to stay, until the CO decides to archive them or they die naturally like any other geocache.  Not every cache has to be achievable for every person.

 

Thanks!

[+cerberus1]

12 hours ago, bluesnote said:

 It would seem every comment here is in favor of keeping benchmarks as a part of the GC site.

 

It seems (to me) that if someone's uninterested, they might not leave a comment as well, so I'll be the wet blanket and say I won't miss it...

I "found" over a hundred benchmarks not even in the system, so could never log them.  Eventually I stopped looking...

I don't log many caches and most events, so maybe that's why this doesn't bug me that much.

Even with my limited knowledge of the tech involved, having to maintain something not used by many seems silly.

I lost my Windows phone app for the same reason...

Besides... If I cared enough to log them, I could go to Waymarking.  They're all able to be logged in Waymarking...

[+TyroneShoelaces]

51 minutes ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Besides... If I cared enough to log them, I could go to Waymarking.  They're all able to be logged in Waymarking...

 

Only if somebody created a waymark listing for the mark.  I doubt every benchmark available to view on this site was replicated by somebody on the Waymarking site.

[+cerberus1]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:29 AM, bluesnote said:

The very same thing can be said for the Waymarking site, which hasn't had a major overhaul in years. And many bugs have appeared and were left unfixed for months, sometimes years. There's probably less than 75 active users per month and I'm one of them. I understand the benchmark feature is widely underused. But that should not be a reason to discontinue and remove them entirely from the site. Maybe create or move the database to a separate website, as what occurred with locationless caches to Waymarking in 2005/06. 

 

For the same reasons, people years later wanted to log/find locationless caches. Groundspeak listened. Two new ones were added, with a third several months ago. I am positive benchmarks will follow the same route. 

 

IIRC, Locationless caches were going bye-bye when Groundspeak felt they didn't fit into the original concept of Geocaching (a container with a log to sign). 

IIRC, Individual Locationless owners were given the option to add their Locationless page to the Waymarking site or be archived. 

 - No other data was transferred AFAIK...

 

Newer people who weren't here when Locationless were a thing wanted them "reissued" for stats that they missed out on.   

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that when stats make it kind of a game, games should have losers as well as winners.  

Benchmarks in the US have never added a "point". Probably the reason so few go for them (since the hobby sorta became a game). 

Multiple finds on one cache finally got crazy enough that "benchmark" caches in other countries got archived, and the multiple log function canned May 2017.   

[+cerberus1]

2 minutes ago, TyroneShoelaces said:

Only if somebody created a waymark listing for the mark.  I doubt every benchmark available to view on this site was replicated by somebody on the Waymarking site.

 

Well, if you're gonna pick nits...  Then you create your own waymark page for others to enjoy and log...

[+TyroneShoelaces]

1 minute ago, cerberus1 said:

 

Well, if you're gonna pick nits...  Then you create your own waymark page for others to enjoy and log...

 

Certainly, and I do create waymarks.  It's not the most user-friendly experience, and take some time and effort to make each one.  Replicating all of the benchmarks as waymarks would be a lot of time and effort for something that already exists here, if HQ would just leave them be.

[+capsai]

As someone from germany, i honestly don't care that benchmarks are only available in the US. During a visit in 2017 i logged a few of them.

 

And with the same argumentation, you could archive the two APE-Caches... or the HQ...

 

Edit: I really want to see LAB caches removed instead of benchmarks

Edited October 19, 2022 by capsai

[+thebruce0]

Ok let's see...

 

1. First off, just to address the quantity of comments - being a contentious issue, of course all those who dislike the change will come here in droves to voice their discontent (as is always the case), making it seem like a loud majority who want them to stay. But as their use stats show, it's a very very small sliver of the actual user community. So this thread is showing it's a vocal and very small minority who are drawn here to voice complaints.

 

2. There is certainly value in past logs. I don't think there's any changing that the ability to log and track history of Benchmarks on GC.com will be leaving. So, on the chance that this wasn't already considered and weighed in with the cost options -- Could HQ provide an Export Benchmark Logs function for users who wish to download their own logging history? In some form or other... there doesn't have to be a standard. If it's a data dump, someone can write a program for people to parse and import to another place if they wish. But if that history can be retained (with photos), I'm sure a LOT of people (from that vocal minority) will be much happier.

 

3. Alternatively, perhaps since Benchmarking and Waymarking are both under HQ management, someone could write a script that could export the Benchmark listings from its current location and import to a new Waymarking category. A one-time data transfer, bypassing whatever guidelines/reviews/etc there may be, to keep the current state of listed Benchmarks available in a different, still active, location? There may be duplicates in the full database, but if say it's a special category that people know was a data dump from GC Benchmarking, it could be used even just as a reference for the ideal Benchmarking category. People could then verify the latest status of all the benchmarks, there or not, at whatever pace they like.  Of course there's still the official NGS database, but the GC database of benchmark statuses(statii?) is its own thing, its own reference, its own format and status. There's still some value in that.

[Frau Potter]

We appreciate the passion that some players have for benchmarking. And thanks @thebruce0for trying to come up with ideas to try to help. However, at this time we would like to focus our resources on geocaching and Adventure Lab. To implement any of these ideas, we would have to slow progress on other projects that are more important to our core products. As a recent example, we have a team who made key improvements to the Pocket Query API and is working to fix a couple bugs resulting from that update.

We believe those who are passionate about benchmarking can still participate in a variety of ways. Many of the contributors in this thread have pointed out opportunities where you can still participate, such as through Waymarking or by directly reporting benchmarks to the NGS. You don't have to stop finding benchmarks. 

 

As a reminder, in the last 365 days, about 2,500 players have logged a benchmark. This represents ca. 0.13% of players who have logged a find during that same period. We know that some players are disappointed about our decision to retire benchmarking. But the numbers give us a clear indication that this is not a critical part of our offerings.

 

[foxtrot_xray]

 

On 10/18/2022 at 1:19 PM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

Scraping the website constitutes a violation of the terms of use and you risk a suspension of your account if you opt to proceed this way.

Just like GC didn't update the database with new info from NGS, NGS does not have all the recovery info and pictures that have been posted here. Can't compare the two, sadly.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 1:19 PM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

If you want to make this information available to others, please go the route proposed by @chaosmanor and contact the NGS directly.

On 10/18/2022 at 11:16 AM, Moun10Bike said:

For those of us who enjoy benchmarks, you can still register recoveries directly with the NGS here: https://geodesy.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/mark_recovery_form.prl

Please note, if anyone submits information, to keep it professional, and only update it if it hasn't been in a year or more, OR, if something major has changed. No names, no funny stories. Those are used by professionals, and whatever you put in there is never deleted, never removed, and will be publicly available forever.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 1:19 PM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

Alternatively, you can obtain the data from the NGS directly. There are also different apps out there dedicated to benchmarking for both Android & iOS.

On 10/18/2022 at 1:19 PM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

Benchmarking was identified as a dependency for another project that is currently in-progress and nearing completion. We aren't quite ready to share more details about it, yet, which is why it wasn't mentioned in the pre-release notes.

I'll be removing the links to the GC site from my Android app and GE plugin then. They were useful before, with additional pictures and all, but if they're all gonna be wiped, there's absolutely no reason to link to GC anymore. Whatever this new project is, I won't even be interested. Frankly, if GC shows it 1/10th the love that it showed benchmarks in the last 22 years, the 'new project' will be gone in 5 years, and I don't have the time to set up a new API and program in new info trading for something that's not gonna last.

 

18 hours ago, 2oldfarts (the rockhounders) said:

So, this is truly goodbye GC. On November 1, without our benchmarking logs and without being able to go to Off Topic to talk to friends that I had made there, there will be no reason for me to return.

Sadly, same here. I was a premium member for one time, and when BM code updates stopped happening, it wasn't worth it. I don't geocache, it bores me. (And the one time I DID? Someone stole the geocoin.) While the BM Forum has died down to a quiet whisper, I still checked it regularly, and enjoyed the talk and banter.

 

Disappointed, but not surprised that it was going to happen, just am that it happening this soon.

 

[Edited by Moderator to remove potty language.]

Edited October 19, 2022 by Keystone

[+Supercheeseburger]

This is truly a sad day in the geocaching community. I've been Geocaching since 2011 and Benchmarking has been part of my adventure. Now, with geocaching. com cancelling one of my fun hobbies, I will no longer be purchasing my Premium Membership. I know this isn't much, but if this decision isn't reversed, I will probably end up cancelling my account as well. I don't want to be a part of something that has taken the fun away from me.

 

Shame on you Geocaching. com.   

[+Viajero Perdido]

My dream version of this game:

• More searching for tangible, real objects, where your eyes can light up, and you yell to your friends, I found it!!! 
• Less intangible concepts, wisps of ideas, geology lessons, go-here-do-this abstract stuff. 

I miss the Brass Cap Cache, which was a quasi-equivalent to benchmarks for Alberta only (and an equivalent for UK); both were nuked 5 years ago.  Those sent people up mountains.

 

 

I have a cherished souvenir on my fridge, the tiniest thing:  a finder's card.  It says (in micro print), "Found a Nano in a Tree in a Forest on a Mountain".  Kinda mind-blowing, when you think of it.

Tangible, baby!

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Viajero Perdido

[+EntropyEndeavor]

Back in 2016 I attended an event hosted by The Maryland Society of Surveyors that was a presentation/Q&A session about benchmarks. I learned a lot about benchmarks, but the most important thing that stuck out to me was how the NGS (National Geodetic Survey) was using the information submitted by Geocachers to help update their database. To see this in action consider one of the benchmarks I found recently: HV0059. The originally imported datasheet on Geocaching list scaled coordinates of 38 46 29 (N) 076 04 35 (W). Scaled coordinates means before the days of GPS someone tried to line the description up with a map and made their best guess. Now compare that to the current datasheet. It has handheld coordinates of 38 46 29.00 (N) 076 04 36.54 (W) and look at who made the last recovery note. This is common when looking at the updated datasheets. Just like CITO this is a way Geocaching has given back to the community, and soon it will be gone. NGS still has their own program for citizen submission, but it is hard to imagine they will obtain the same amount of information without benchmark logging integrated into the Geocaching site. Perhaps it is an extreme long shot, but have you even contacted NGS for the potential for some amount of funding or at the very least for their comments on this decision?

 

You say their is no one to perform maintenance on them. Did you try to find volunteers like there are for reviewing Geocaches?

 

You say they are only available in the US. This does not have to be so! The UK has trigpoints you could add. And look how cool they are. It was a choice not to try to extend the concept to other countries.

 

You say only few people log them, but they seem almost intentionally hidden. How were new members to even learn they existed?

 

It is so disheartening to be powerless to a constant barrage of short sighted money based decisions (including but not just at Geocaching) to make the internet worse than it was or could be. The memories I have from benchmarks are up there with the rest of the memories from Geocaching. The time I hung off the side of a bridge with one arm to get a picture without being in traffic. The one and only time I was able to find an azimuth disk. Taking the time to look for all the reference marks. And there was so much I was still looking forward to. Trying to get the rare gravity and magnetic types of disks. Trying to convince this building to let me on their roof. Something to log on mountains where Geocaches aren't allowed to be placed. At least I never bought a metal detector like I had been planning...

Edited October 20, 2022 by EntropyEndeavor

[+streudelz1222]

On 10/17/2022 at 7:57 PM, The Snowdog said:

 

If the logs are deleted as well, that would be a great loss. I imagine there are countless benchmarks out there for which the only photos in existence are on our logs. That is a national treasure, right there.

 

And don't say "Well just use Waymarking." I set perhaps one in twenty benchmarks as waymarks; they have to be both interesting and reasonably accessible to the public. A never-photographed disc that requires a two mile hike along a railroad line really can't be waymarked, but at least the photos are (or, soon, were) there on the site.

To lose all those photos forever would be so sad and such a huge loss.  Some posters keep pointing out that we can download our logs in the next two weeks.  While that is true it is also enjoyable and educational to read the logs that others have posted, and one individual probably can't download every log that every other cacher has posted.  This is such a disappointment.

[+streudelz1222]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:37 AM, steve.n.erin said:

This is a terrible punch in the gut. I discovered so much joy in Benchmarking during the pandemic. It felt safe, and interesting, and challenging.

 

I have logged over 700 benchmarks since the pandemic started, and I've grown to really love researching the marks, learning more about the history of surveying, and visiting old courthouses,  post offices, etc on Geocaching trips. Groundspeak has a huge and valuable database of benchmark logs, especially photos and GPS coordinates. I frequently see surveyors have log benchmarks here, occasionally thanking previous finders for their documentation.

 

This semi-neglected part of Geocaching has brought so many people legitimate JOY over the years DESPITE the fact that the logs don't count toward any statistics. I personally have brought JOY to several non-US cachers by helping them log their first benchmark to earn that icon. You know, like the Groundspeak HQ icon that is only available in the US.  Like the APE caches only available in 2 countries. People make life-goals out of hard-to-earn accomplishments. Some things are fun, interesting, and compelling because they are difficult.

 

I can't believe that Groundspeak is choosing to remove this joy from my life. Finding joy in this world right now is really hard.

 

Please, at the very least, I beg you: don't remove our logs and our photos.  I've worked so many hours researching, finding, documenting these marks in the last 2 years, and reading and enjoying other loggers' posts.  Or, make benchmarking pay-to-play.  I'd gladly add a premimum benchmarker's rate to my membership if it had to be.

This is one of the most well-said posts.  It definitely is a punch in the gut.  I completely agree that some of the most worthwhile accomplishments are worthwhile because they are difficult - just like some of my favorite caches that I've found are ones that are difficult and/or are in hard to get to areas; just because a cache may not be found often doesn't mean it's not a great cache.

[+streudelz1222]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:50 AM, chaosmanor said:

My biggest complaint about this has to do with the plain, true fact that Geocachers have become a very valuable partner of the NGS, as thousands of solid Recoveries have been filed. I've done over 100 of them, and I know one person who has done nearly 500. By eliminating the file, even as old as it is, the NGS will lose an active documentary asset. I would respectfully request that GC-HQ rethink this decision; keeping Benchmarking on the site would be a "good citizen" thing.

You hit the nail on the head with the "good citizen" thing.  Even though the NGS site has notes for recoveries from Geocaching, it doesn't include the photos or other details which are often helpful in locating them.

[+streudelz1222]

2 hours ago, EntropyEndeavor said:

Back in 2016 I attended an event hosted by The Maryland Society of Surveyors that was a presentation/Q&A session about benchmarks. I learned a lot about benchmarks, but the most important thing that stuck out to me was how the NGS (National Geodetic Survey) was using the information submitted by Geocachers to help update their database. To see this in action consider one of the benchmarks I found recently: HV0059. The originally imported datasheet on Geocaching list scaled coordinates of 38 46 29 (N) 076 04 35 (W). Scaled coordinates means before the days of GPS someone tried to line the description up with a map and made their best guess. Now compare that to the current datasheet. It has handheld coordinates of 38 46 29.00 (N) 076 04 36.54 (W) and look at who made the last recovery note. This is common when looking at the updated datasheets. Just like CITO this is a way Geocaching has given back to the community, and soon it will be gone. NGS still has their own program for citizen submission, but it is hard to imagine they will obtain the same amount of information without benchmark logging integrated into the Geocaching site. Perhaps it is an extreme long shot, but have you even contacted NGS for the potential for some amount of funding or at the very least for their comments on this decision?

 

You say their is no one to perform maintenance on them. Did you try to find volunteers like there are for reviewing Geocaches?

 

You say they are only available in the US. This does not have to be so! The UK has trigpoints you could add. And look how cool they are. It was a choice not to try to extend the concept to other countries.

 

You say only few people log them, but they seem almost intentionally hidden. How were new members to even learn they existed?

 

It is so disheartening to be powerless to a constant barrage of short sighted money based decisions (including but not just at Geocaching) to make the internet worse than it was or could be. The memories I have from benchmarks are up there with the rest of the memories from Geocaching. The time I hung off the side of a bridge with one arm to get a picture without being in traffic. The one and only time I was able to find an azimuth disk. Taking the time to look for all the reference marks. And there was so much I was still looking forward to. Trying to get the rare gravity and magnetic types of disks. Trying to convince this building to let me on their roof. Something to log on mountains where Geocaches aren't allowed to be placed. At least I never bought a metal detector like I had been planning...

Great points regarding giving back to the community!

 

I'd be curious to know how much money/resources would be needed to save all this.  As others have stated I would gladly increase my premium membership fee (or have a benchmark add-on fee) if it meant this could be saved.  Paying $30 a year for a hobby I enjoy is hardly anything - people pay far more for far less in my opinion.

[+dprovan]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:19 AM, Bl4ckH4wkGER said:

You and all others who feels strongly about their benchmark logs and photos have some time to save them for yourself. Starting with the List of your benchmark logs on https://www.geocaching.com/my/logs.aspx?s=3 is a good starting point.

What's being lost isn't what I've logged. What's being lost is what I could read that others have logged.

Edited October 20, 2022 by dprovan

[+Ragfoot]

Benchmark hunting has become my favorite part of the geolocation game. I LOVE tracking my finds on geocaching.com. I've found more than 1100 benchmarks, more than 300 in the past year! Benchmarks are often difficult to find since they are not always at the posted coords. You may have to read the description to figure out where the benchmark is. Just like some letterbox geocaches. 

You insist keeping benchmarks would require too much upkeep and maintenance. How so? Just leave well enough alone. Don't upgrade it. There are plenty of benchmarks in your very old database to keep most of us benchmark hunters happy. Your only expense should be allowing enough database space for the finds and pictures.

As to the upkeep of the benchmarks themselves, it's NOT necessary. Unlike geocache hunting, when you can't find an ammo can in a bush you simply throw down a bison tube and claim your find, with benchmark hunting you find the benchmark, take a photo, and log it on geocaching.com. If you don't find it you are allowed to post a note saying you tried, but DNF. If you find evidence the benchmark is no longer there, you can mark the benchmark as destroyed. As many other posters have noted, the USGS has appreciated and used geocacher's logs to update their databases. 

Please don't think I am offering a threat, I'm fully aware my membership fee will not make a dent in your bottom line. But,  removing benchmarks from my geocaching experience doesn't give me any incentive to pay for a premium membership.

 

Finally, I can see on https://www.geocaching.com/my/logs.aspx?s=3 I have posted 1284 logs. What I don't see is how I can download those logs with their pictures.

[+Hynz]

8 hours ago, EntropyEndeavor said:

the most important thing that stuck out to me was how the NGS (National Geodetic Survey) was using the information submitted by Geocachers to help update their database. To see this in action consider one of the benchmarks I found recently: HV0059. The originally imported datasheet on Geocaching list scaled coordinates of 38 46 29 (N) 076 04 35 (W). Scaled coordinates means before the days of GPS someone tried to line the description up with a map and made their best guess. Now compare that to the current datasheet. It has handheld coordinates of 38 46 29.00 (N) 076 04 36.54 (W) and look at who made the last recovery note. This is common when looking at the updated datasheets. Just like CITO this is a way Geocaching has given back to the community, and soon it will be gone. NGS still has their own program for citizen submission, but it is hard to imagine they will obtain the same amount of information without benchmark logging integrated into the Geocaching site. Perhaps it is an extreme long shot, but have you even contacted NGS for the potential for some amount of funding or at the very least for their comments on this decision?

Thanks for that information. I also would be interested what the NGS thnks about this decision.

I wonder if the update of that last recovery note in the current datashet was made by the NGS because of the GC-Log alone or because the logger *additionally* made a report to the NGS.

[+elrojo14]

17 hours ago, Frau Potter said:

We appreciate the passion that some players have for benchmarking. And thanks @thebruce0for trying to come up with ideas to try to help. However, at this time we would like to focus our resources on geocaching and Adventure Lab. To implement any of these ideas, we would have to slow progress on other projects that are more important to our core products. As a recent example, we have a team who made key improvements to the Pocket Query API and is working to fix a couple bugs resulting from that update.

We believe those who are passionate about benchmarking can still participate in a variety of ways. Many of the contributors in this thread have pointed out opportunities where you can still participate, such as through Waymarking or by directly reporting benchmarks to the NGS. You don't have to stop finding benchmarks. 

 

As a reminder, in the last 365 days, about 2,500 players have logged a benchmark. This represents ca. 0.13% of players who have logged a find during that same period. We know that some players are disappointed about our decision to retire benchmarking. But the numbers give us a clear indication that this is not a critical part of our offerings.

 

Yeah I can only handle so much of HQ telling me to pound sand as they continue to remove the fun parts of the game. Moving the benchmarks over to Waymarking automatically would be nice. Providing some way for us to download the data easily would be nice. Geocaching basically told us "Go find a silly Adventure Lab and you will feel better." Maybe you can make us all a souvenir for trying to save benchmarking. Yeah we didn't succeed, but we deserve a souvey anyway. Its the new Geocaching way. 

[+Bl4ckH4wkGER]

8 hours ago, Ragfoot said:

You insist keeping benchmarks would require too much upkeep and maintenance. How so? Just leave well enough alone. Don't upgrade it. There are plenty of benchmarks in your very old database to keep most of us benchmark hunters happy. Your only expense should be allowing enough database space for the finds and pictures.

 

I’ll respond to this comment representative for the various comments of “just leave it as is, it shouldn’t be that hard”.

 

I understand that the work and cost needed with maintaining a website and keeping it up and running may not be clear for everyone, so let me give a more tangible examples:

 

Imagine you live on a couple acres of land with a nice 3000 square feet house. It’s pretty old but looks in decent shape. However, it’d really be time for a remodel because the electrical and plumbing are still from when the house was built 70+ years ago. You had three kids and plenty of space and bedrooms to raise them. All your kids have long moved out and so it’s only you and your partner left in the big house on the big property.

 

Even though there are now only 2 people living in the house instead of 5 people, you still have to:

• Pay the same property tax, maybe even more because it goes up every year
• Pay the exterminator to keep things pest free
• Clean the gutters
• Maintain the yard
• Keep things heated and dry so there’s no moisture damage
• Make updates required by law because hypothetically all houses must have solar now
• Etc etc etc

You can’t just say that you’re not gonna fix the leaky roof because it’s over Billy’s room and Billy moved out so it’s fine. If you do that, you actively risk larger damage to your assets and other parts of the house. Same with not doing the necessary updates to your electrical and plumbing. All it takes is one busted pipe and you're looking at a couple grand in damages.

 

Overall the cost to stay where you are far outweighs the benefit of the large house now that the kids have moved out and their families only all come over all at once for birthdays and holidays.

 

Now, many of you will probably say “well, I’d just downsize and move somewhere else”. Bingo, that’s exactly what Geocaching is doing with benchmarking. We’re moving out into a smaller and more modern house with fewer bedrooms.

 

We understand that selling the house you built and raised your family in can be hard and is an emotional moment, one where you don’t want to hear the numbers. That said, sometimes these tough choices are necessary to make sure that the whole family will be fine years down the road because if you don’t, the debt accrued by staying where you are is just gonna weigh down everyone.

 

I hope you get the picture. 

[+Teper129]

I have been an avid geocacher since I joined in 2011. I have immensely enjoyed this hobby, especially the things I have gotten to see and the people I have gotten to meet along the way. While finding my 8,000+ caches, I have also found 23 benchmarks - a small number compared to many, but it is ALWAYS exciting when I find a benchmark and am actually able to log it on the website.

 

This morning, I checked benchmark stats on the website and it reflected that "In the last 7 days, 461 benchmarks have been logged by 135 users." It is, to be frank, absolute nonsense that geocaching/Groundspeak would choose to get rid of a feature that more than 100 people use on a weekly basis.

 

It really can be summed up very simply. For those that don't benchmark, does removing access give any benefit? The answer is, plainly, no. But for those that do benchmark, that enjoy it as a regular part of caching, independent from caching, or just something else to do occasionally while caching, it will be a negative - it will leave a deficit in the level of enjoyment they found through geocaching before.

 

I know how companies and large decisions like this work, and understand that this decision will almost certainly not be reversed. But I wanted to share my input that I am upset by this decision, and disappointed that geocaching/Groundspeak chose to go this route.

 

[+Hügh]

9 minutes ago, Teper129 said:

I checked benchmark stats on the website and it reflected that "In the last 7 days, 461 benchmarks have been logged by 135 users." It is, to be frank, absolute nonsense that geocaching/Groundspeak would choose to get rid of a feature that more than 100 people use on a weekly basis.

 

In comparison, over 1.5 million logs (= GL18J2NCN_31 - GL18GAPQ2_31; this probably isn't 100% accurate but it should be close enough) have been posted on the main Geocaching.com site.

[Moun10Bike]

10 hours ago, streudelz1222 said:

You hit the nail on the head with the "good citizen" thing.  Even though the NGS site has notes for recoveries from Geocaching, it doesn't include the photos or other details which are often helpful in locating them.

 

That is not correct. The NGS site allows photo upload, including a helpful categorization method:

 

[Moun10Bike]

9 hours ago, Ragfoot said:

Unlike geocache hunting, when you can't find an ammo can in a bush you simply throw down a bison tube and claim your find, with benchmark hunting you find the benchmark, take a photo, and log it on geocaching.com.

 

I hope you are not really advocating for throwdowns.

[+Ragfoot]

27 minutes ago, Moun10Bike said:

 

I hope you are not really advocating for throwdowns.

This was not an advocation, simply an observation. In my experience, the "normal" with geocaches appears to be don't log a  DNF. Simply log "I thought I would help the cache owner and leave a replacement".  I have also noticed the replacement is almost never the same size as that in the listing which is never updated. (I have found a enough geocaches to have made a reasonable observation.)

I was pointing out that was never a problem with hunting a benchmark. It was ALWAYS as described if not damaged or missing.

[+Isonzo Karst]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:24 AM, BryantsofTR said:

Leave the challenge caches grandfathered!!!!

 

Why archive the challenge caches? 

Two reasons:

1) if you don't already qualify, you never can

2) only benchmark challenges that are purely, Log some number of benchmarks, could be monitored by the CO - you log the challenge, CO looks at the only remaining benchmark stat on the site -> count.

 

My Benchmark challenge called for 13 different types. Some require X number of types, or elevation, or within state,  or in X number of states,  there are other requirements.  None  verifiable.

 

 

[+momcheers]

I absolutely agree that just because only a small number of people are using it, or that it's only available to people in the USA, does not mean that it needs to go away --  Scuba diving is only available to a small number of people too!   Not everyone is participating in puzzle caches or even earth caches, or heck, even "cemetery caches".... so what?!? 

 

I think the number would definitely go up if people were aware of this aspect.... there are many "aspects" to geocaching that the "average" player doesn't use because they haven't taken the time to learn about them.... why punish those who have?!?

If the answer is that it's taking up "room", "space", "availability", "a piece of the limited pie",  etc, in the game, then what is going to be replaced with?  

[+niraD]

4 minutes ago, momcheers said:

I absolutely agree that just because only a small number of people are using it, or that it's only available to people in the USA, does not mean that it needs to go away --  Scuba diving is only available to a small number of people too!   Not everyone is participating in puzzle caches or even earth caches, or heck, even "cemetery caches".... so what?!? 

 

I think the number would definitely go up if people were aware of this aspect.... there are many "aspects" to geocaching that the "average" player doesn't use because they haven't taken the time to learn about them.... why punish those who have?!?

If the answer is that it's taking up "room", "space", "availability", "a piece of the limited pie",  etc, in the game, then what is going to be replaced with?  

The problem isn't the small number of people using it. The problem isn't that it's taking up room, space, availability, etc.

 

The problem is that the code for the benchmarking part of the site is old and crufty. New important projects are being held up by this old and crufty code. Groundspeak's basic options are either to remove the benchmarking part of the site, or to delay the new important projects even further so they can completely rewrite the benchmarking part of the site.

[+cerberus1]

1 hour ago, momcheers said:

If the answer is that it's taking up "room", "space", "availability", "a piece of the limited pie",  etc, in the game, then what is going to be replaced with?  

 

It's above somewhere that there's a project in the works...

I don't know a lot about this stuff, but I know the reason that benchmarks came here in the first place is simply because there were so few caches at the time.   You missed all that...  

In order to keep new cachers interested, they needed to find something so members could use their brand-new, expensive GPSRs (this is a GPS hobby...) so folks found something... And benchmarks fit. 

- Today, you can find spots that'd take you most of a day or longer with all the caches around.

It lasted here a long time.    I think canning them was a tough decision to make actually, maybe a bit of guilt too, but things change.

[+Curious Joe]

Boo!!!!  Hiss!!!

[+streudelz1222]

11 hours ago, Moun10Bike said:

 

That is not correct. The NGS site allows photo upload, including a helpful categorization method:

 

I believe you're talking about submissions on the NGS site.  I was referring to logs from geocaching being fed back into the database.  Below is an example where the geocaching log has pictures but that same log on the NGS site does not.

[+streudelz1222]

22 hours ago, dprovan said:

What's being lost isn't what I've logged. What's being lost is what I could read that others have logged.

Exactly!