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Feature request: Option to hide stages in sequential lab series


Ericles

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The subject really says it all. I would like the option to only reveal the stages one at a time.

I'd like to put some actual Adventure into my next Adventure Lab and the essence of adventure is the unknown. This would allow for better story telling as well.

Years ago I heard this would be a future feature so ... how about now? :cool:

I guess I could create a huge zone to mask where the stages are but that removes much of the "location based" aspect and would allow easier spoofing.

Thanks!

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6 hours ago, Ericles said:

The subject really says it all. I would like the option to only reveal the stages one at a time.

 

Since the text of each stage in a sequential AL is only revealed after you've completed the preceding stages, I presume what you're asking for is that the locations of those stages be hidden too. Almost all the ALs I've done have involved substantial travelling, and for quite a few I've used public transport when I've known in advance that all the locations would be within walking distance, but without knowing whether the other stages are a short walk or half a day's drive away I'm pretty sure I'd pass and, if there was an Ignore list for ALs, that's where it would go.

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8 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

Since the text of each stage in a sequential AL is only revealed after you've completed the preceding stages, I presume what you're asking for is that the locations of those stages be hidden too. Almost all the ALs I've done have involved substantial travelling, and for quite a few I've used public transport when I've known in advance that all the locations would be within walking distance, but without knowing whether the other stages are a short walk or half a day's drive away I'm pretty sure I'd pass and, if there was an Ignore list for ALs, that's where it would go.

I would guess that the OP is talking about stages that are in the general area. Naturally it would be bad design to hide the stages and then make them unexpectedly far away. But I'd still call that bad design by the owner, not a bad feature by the AL system.

 

But, personally, I wouldn't be too wild about the other stages being hidden. I get what the OP is thinking, but I'm not sure it worth the added uncertainty even when we're talking about the stages all being in the same park.

 

5 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If you want to create something like this then just make a multi cache instead of a Lab.

Yeah, I think that's good advice.

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2 hours ago, dprovan said:

I would guess that the OP is talking about stages that are in the general area. Naturally it would be bad design to hide the stages and then make them unexpectedly far away. But I'd still call that bad design by the owner, not a bad feature by the AL system.

 

"Unexpectedly far away" depends on the mode of transport the searcher is using. Discovering the stages are spread over tens of kilometres is no big deal if you're driving but it's a different matter if you're on foot. It's bad enough in that regard that the app's map doesn't have a scale on it, let alone hide the uncompleted stages from view.

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Ignoring all of the expected snark...

16 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

if there was an Ignore list for ALs, that's where it would go.

Don't try to hijack the thread with your request to add an ignore list feature. :bad:

 

13 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

If you want to create something like this then just make a multi cache instead of a Lab.

It's been done and only 4 groups tried it in 10 years which is why I posted it in the Adventure Lab forum. The point isn't to put another single-find cache out there that would be generally ignored but to use the new app and the new technology. To sweeten the deal, that old multi would now become something of a bonus cache for the AL series.

 

8 hours ago, dprovan said:

I would guess that the OP is talking about stages that are in the general area. Naturally it would be bad design to hide the stages and then make them unexpectedly far away. But I'd still call that bad design by the owner, not a bad feature by the AL system.

I agree and it wouldn't be vague. All five stages are within a square mile.

 

We have this new tool with great potential but it could do more. In it's current form ALs can replace virtuals and field puzzles. With this modification it could also replace multis and some aspects of Wherigo and letterbox hybrids. I've seen some brilliant ingenuity, despite the limitations.I want it to continue to grow. Imagine what people will create when the app is full featured?

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8 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

 

"Unexpectedly far away" depends on the mode of transport the searcher is using. Discovering the stages are spread over tens of kilometres is no big deal if you're driving but it's a different matter if you're on foot. It's bad enough in that regard that the app's map doesn't have a scale on it, let alone hide the uncompleted stages from view.

"Unexpectedly far away" means exactly what it says: farther away that the person looking at the AL would expect. That doesn't depend on the mode of transport the searcher is using, only what mode of transport he's expecting to need. If he's expecting a walk in the park, tens of kilometers is a huge deal even if he drives to the starting coordinates in a car.

 

2 hours ago, Ericles said:

We have this new tool with great potential but it could do more. In it's current form ALs can replace virtuals and field puzzles. With this modification it could also replace multis and some aspects of Wherigo and letterbox hybrids. I've seen some brilliant ingenuity, despite the limitations.I want it to continue to grow. Imagine what people will create when the app is full featured?

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the notion that the goal is to allow ALs to replace other geocache types. So in this case, if what you want to do is a multi, you should do a multi regardless of whether ALs have the feature you need to make an AL act like a multi. I'd reluctantly support to a feature that allowed hiding AL stages in order to do something novel, but I'd be disappointed if people used it just to make another multi.

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4 hours ago, Ericles said:

We have this new tool with great potential but it could do more. In it's current form ALs can replace virtuals and field puzzles. With this modification it could also replace multis and some aspects of Wherigo and letterbox hybrids. I've seen some brilliant ingenuity, despite the limitations.I want it to continue to grow. Imagine what people will create when the app is full featured?

"If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

 

AL is a new tool, but it for the cache types you mention, it doesn't even come close to being a "replacement":

- Multi: There is no way an AL can replace a well-designed multicache. A multi gives you all the creative freedom you want, e.g. show/hide stages in the listing, use any number of stages, use physical stages, give auxiliary waypoints, give a long description with pictures etc.

- Virtual: Virtuals can be much more than "go to the location and make a photo".

- Wherigo: It always baffles me when someone compares AL to WIG. My only explanation is that those people have never played a creative, non-trivial WIG.

- Letterbox Hybrid: What?! The most important feature of an LBH (and actually the only one which defines it)  is a stamp in the box. ALs don't even have a box. And if you refer to "letterbox-style" instructions (i.e. find the next stage w/o GPS), this would only be possible, if you keep the location always hidden, even after you have solved the preceding one.

 

And don't get me started on the various general drawbacks of ALs compared to geocaches :(.

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21 hours ago, Ericles said:

We have this new tool with great potential but it could do more. In it's current form ALs can replace virtuals and field puzzles. With this modification it could also replace multis and some aspects of Wherigo and letterbox hybrids. I've seen some brilliant ingenuity, despite the limitations.I want it to continue to grow. Imagine what people will create when the app is full featured?

 

Perhaps some percentage of virtuals and field puzzle multis/mysteries could be replaced by ALs, maybe some of those might be a better experience as a result (putting aside the 5 smileys instead of one "benefit"), but certainly not all. ALs have a lot of limitations, most notably:

  • All locations need to have good phone coverage, preferably from all providers
  • The locations need to have something reasonably meaningful to ask questions about
  • Access to the locations needs to be clear from the map (and the map really needs to have a scale!)
  • The overview and location description are limited to 1024 characters and can only include one image
  • Activity logs reviews are limited to just a few hundred characters and can't include photos

For virtuals, a few examples come to mind which simply wouldn't work as ALs. One is Fortress (GC7B6E4) which is located atop a 70-metre high waterfall at the end of a canyon in the Blue Mountains, with the logging requirement being to take a photo of yourself (or something of yours) right at the location. Apart from the total lack of phone coverage, there's really nothing that could be worked into an AL question that would do the site justice; anything would likely just be a question for the sake of having a question. It's much the same story at Figure Eight (GC7B9MJ), a figure-8 shaped coastal rock pool where the logging requirement is a photo of yourself in the pool. Then there's the spot I was considering using for a virtual, had I been awarded one. It at least has partial phone coverage along the route but the AL's map doesn't show any of the walking trails in that part of the national park and, with no way to provide intermediate reference points in an AL to guide the way, there'd be too much risk of someone getting themselves lost in some pretty steep and isolated bushland. Again, the attraction of the location is visual, with a stunning rock formation and expansive coastal views, and, with no signage, framing a question that would add anything to the experience would be difficult.

 

For field puzzle mysteries/multis, a few of my own come to mind. There's Quest for the Middle Sea Diamond (GC62WZJ), which has six waypoints where there are observations to be made, so at face value those could be worked into AL questions easily enough, but the real attraction of that cache, and I guess a large part of why it has 76% FPs and won a regional award in 2015, is the scenic final location and themed container (a jewelry box containing a large diamond). Without that, it'd be just a ho-hum go to a bunch of locations and answer some basic questions and, since two of those locations are water-access, the reward for effort ratio would be pretty low even if you got a smiley for visiting each one. The Bushranger's Legacy (GC9M6X5) has a "keystone" at the listed coordinates which sets the field puzzle that has to be solved from other objects placed at three waypoints in large sandstone caves. Once solved, the searcher is led to a pretty impressive rock fissure where the themed container awaits their discovery. Like the others, there are no signs anywhere that could be used to frame questions around, or even fence posts that could be counted (that has to be one of the lamest AL questions, really), because the cache is all about exploring the natural landscape and finding things concealed in it.

 

ALs are great in urban environments when set along historical or art trails, for example, or along signposted nature walks. There's a good niche for them, particularly in places like national parks where setting physical caches can be difficult or impossible, but they don't come close to being a replacement for the other cache types. Yes, ALs are popular but popularity isn't everything and I think there's still a place in the game for a well-thought-out and engaging multi that builds on a theme to a satisfying and rewarding search and discovery at GZ, even if at the end of the day you only get one smiley for it.

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9 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:
On 9/28/2022 at 2:08 PM, Ericles said:

It's been done and only 4 groups tried it in 10 years which is why I posted it in the Adventure Lab forum. The point isn't to put another single-find cache out there that would be generally ignored

 

If nobody wants it maybe it's just a bad idea?

 

I often find that the better the cache, the fewer finds it gets. Of the 12 caches I've given FPs to this year, 7 have had less than 20 finds and one of the most memorable, in terms of the experience, has only had one finder (me).

 

Or at least that's what I tell myself when I look at the find counts on my most recent hides (1, 6, 4 and 8).

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13 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

 

If nobody wants it maybe it's just a bad idea?

 

Much thought went into this before made the suggestion. The experience was great judging from the length of the logs, the favorite point percent (though the cache was hidden well before favorites were a thing), the number of photos in the logs and the reminiscing I hear at local events. Newer cachers couldn't even see the lonely multi through the sea of easy traditionals and were unlikely to try it when there was only one smiley involved. An AL could recreate much of the experience, have greater rewards, be substantially more visible, be easier to maintain and use the new technology/platform. But it can't have all the stages visible at the start or it would ruin the experience. I can think of a few other classic multis/puzzles that would do well as Adventure Labs but cachers would absolutely go the wrong way if the stages were all visible.

 

I'm not looking to change the world or start a debate on the limitations of the platform. I just want to hide the best caches & labs possible and I need a bit of help, in the way of a (hopefully) minor software enhancement, to accomplish that.

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Isn't that basically what an. AL does? I have one out that enables cachers  to get one stage then go towards another, each stage is not known exactly until you get within the Geofence range, mine is set fairly close). If understand what you desire it would be more an multi cache than an AL.

 

I do not know if they could implement a "Hide this Stage" function when setting up an Al or not. That would allow the CO to have the information to place and publish the Al. The seeker would need to get one stage to find the Hidden One, more than likely it would need to be sequential, otherwise the info at each stage would have to refer to each other stage. 

 

I would recommend keeping it simple for all and make a multi. I do not know if there is a distance restriction between stages of a multi cache - minimum or maximum.

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On 10/1/2022 at 5:07 AM, Ericles said:

Newer cachers couldn't even see the lonely multi through the sea of easy traditionals and were unlikely to try it when there was only one smiley involved.

(Emphasis by me)

Yeah, and so what?! Any non-trivial multi is not appealing to the "smiley-count" crowd. Some of the best experiences in my cacher life have been "epic" caches, where I spent many, many hours in the field, sometimes to the point of total physical exhaustion, and the end result was not only one smiley ... but an unforgettable experience! To be honest, I would regard converting such a cache to an AL, with a "find point" for every stage, as a downgrade.

 

On 10/1/2022 at 5:07 AM, Ericles said:

An AL could recreate much of the experience, have greater rewards, be substantially more visible, be easier to maintain and use the new technology/platform.

- Have greater rewards: Like what? I hope it's not only the find count.

- Substantially more visible: Really? A multi in a sea of traditionals stands out at least by its color on the cache map. OTOH, my home area is absolutely swamped by ALs by now, and one more wouldn't stand out at all.

- Easier to maintain: Maybe, if the multi has physical stages (but then the AL couldn't really "recreate the experience"). But if the multi has only virtual stages, they are just as easy or difficult to maintain as AL locations. Additionally, for a multi cache, the cachers can post DNF/NM/Notes to alert the CO of possible problems. As long as ALs don't have any such means, I seriously doubt that they are "easy to maintain" in the long run. See also here ;):

 

 

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