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Problem with Signal's Labyrinth


Exit8Jake

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The idea of Geocaching events is awesome and I love the idea of it, but they should make you want to go caching more often.

I just filled out the survey for the current challenge and made me wonder if others have the same feeling I do.

 

I hate Signal's Labyrinth, because it has actually prevented me from caching. 

At the beginning of each round/labyrinth, I will go searching for a lot of caches and get enough points for both souvenirs in a day or two.

Once you get 500 points (To escape and get the last souvenir) all points are meaningless. Also every cache you find, you can't use again in the next round for points.

So, I would literally stop Geocaching all together for 2 months until the next round!

This really does the opposite of what it should do.

 

I feel like having extra points rollover or keeping the points and having the escape goal higher in the following labyrinths would fix that.

There's no incentive to keep searching and actually limits the caches you can find points for the next goal.

 

How does everyone else feel? I can't be the only person who finishes each round really quickly and then waits.

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2 hours ago, Exit8Jake said:

The idea of Geocaching events is awesome and I love the idea of it, but they should make you want to go caching more often.

I just filled out the survey for the current challenge and made me wonder if others have the same feeling I do.

 

I hate Signal's Labyrinth, because it has actually prevented me from caching. 

At the beginning of each round/labyrinth, I will go searching for a lot of caches and get enough points for both souvenirs in a day or two.

Once you get 500 points (To escape and get the last souvenir) all points are meaningless. Also every cache you find, you can't use again in the next round for points.

So, I would literally stop Geocaching all together for 2 months until the next round!

This really does the opposite of what it should do.

 

I feel like having extra points rollover or keeping the points and having the escape goal higher in the following labyrinths would fix that.

There's no incentive to keep searching and actually limits the caches you can find points for the next goal.

 

How does everyone else feel? I can't be the only person who finishes each round really quickly and then waits.

You're not alone in feeling this way, but there are others ways of looking at it. The incentive to keep caching, even though you already earned the two souvenirs, is to enjoy getting outside and finding geocaches. No need to wait, just keep caching as usual. I understand what you are saying, that continuing to find caches after you earned all the points will limit your cache options for the future months. I get that. But it may also encourage someone to expand their caching area and find caches in new places.

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3 hours ago, Exit8Jake said:

So, I would literally stop Geocaching all together for 2 months until the next round!

This really does the opposite of what it should do.

Well, that depends on what you think the promotion should do...

 

But there are various goals (including some sanctioned by Groundspeak, like one-year streaks) that can limit your geocaching in various ways, depending on how you approach them. As an example, when I was working on my streak, I limited myself to only one cache per day. The only exception I made was when I went geocaching with a group, and we went somewhere I wouldn't normally go. But if I was in a park I visited regularly, then I'd find only one cache and save the rest for future visits.

 

Strictly speaking, a one-year streak doesn't restrict you from finding caches. But on a practical basis, one way you maintain a streak is by not exhausting the supply of available caches, and doing that does restrict you from finding caches.

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46 minutes ago, niraD said:

Well, that depends on what you think the promotion should do...

 

But there are various goals (including some sanctioned by Groundspeak, like one-year streaks) that can limit your geocaching in various ways, depending on how you approach them. As an example, when I was working on my streak, I limited myself to only one cache per day. The only exception I made was when I went geocaching with a group, and we went somewhere I wouldn't normally go. But if I was in a park I visited regularly, then I'd find only one cache and save the rest for future visits.

 

Strictly speaking, a one-year streak doesn't restrict you from finding caches. But on a practical basis, one way you maintain a streak is by not exhausting the supply of available caches, and doing that does restrict you from finding caches.

 

That makes sense. Keeping a streak seems tough. I feel like the point of this promotion was to get people to search for more caches and more often. I can be wrong, I'm just speculating. 

I've pretty much exhausted all the caches by my office. So there's none I can really get on my lunch break anymore.

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3 hours ago, Exit8Jake said:

How does everyone else feel? I can't be the only person who finishes each round really quickly and then waits.

 

Would you run outta caches if you didn't do that?  I could see some areas where someone would have to wait because of cache numbers..

We didn't cache during one of our most active years because we were given souvenirs we didn't ask for, every day for a month straight...

I had to look at this one...Apparently, I have new souvenirs I didn't know about again.  They're the other 2/3rds thing, and serious about them.

We've always called these things promotions and couldn't remember when the last time was I logged an event to get a souvenir.  

I don't like the idea of someone saying the way I enjoy a hobby needs to be spiced up. I like it just the way it is thanks...   ;)

Others find it sorta a dare, so it's fun... for them.  And that's fine too.   :)

Seems multis and some mysteries will do it for me (but I'm still lab cache, challenge, PMO and something else free...). 

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Yeah, pretty much I've run out caches in areas I'm in often. So now I either have to go further out or into areas I'm not normally in or have the time to goto. Which I know is the general point to explore places you wouldn't normally. But this event is also making me wait to look for the remaining ones in an area I frequent. 

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I agree entirely.  I severely limit caching in my home area, because I will need those caches in an upcoming month.  I try and can freely get caches when I am away from home to get the points I need or to enjoy caching.   The time period of a year for this is too long; or the points should roll into the next level or be cumulative.

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I find caches when I feel like it and the souvenir promotions don't change my behavior.  I only got the intro souvenir for each labyrinth and I only know that because I filled in the survey and it asked which labyrinth souvenirs I found.

 

When I first started geocaching souvenirs were more rare and meaningful and I would go out of my way to earn them, especially in August when the only souvenir challenge of the year would happen.  But one year they had a souvenir for each day of August and that's when I stopped trying and caring about them.  I wasn't going to go caching for 31 days in a row just to earn souvenirs.  But for some people, that was the start of their 366 day or more streak.

 

I enjoy earning location based souvenirs (states / provinces / countries) and the occasional single day souvenir (International Geocaching Day for example).  

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I've said before that the souvenirs should have something in it for more experienced cachers (even though it appears they are used to attract newbies) - like multi level souvenirs, bronze/silver/gold etc, and more involved/stimulating hunts, rather than just the same old tired points for caches approach. The survey I just did says it all - 'how many finds have you made?' - the bands were 1-10, etc up to 100+....... established players just aren't on the radar....

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My region only has about 500 caches total, of which some 40 are mine, so after nine years in the game I've pretty much cleared the map around here. New caches are great when they happen but so far this year there have only been 15 of those. Making any headway in these promotions that require finding lots of caches means plenty of travelling outside my region. Earlier this year I did some group trips away that fortuitously got me over the line for the first two labyrinths, but with 345 points still needed for the current one and only 23 days remaining (and rain likely for most of those) I'll probably miss out this time.

 

The promotions I've enjoyed the most were the ones that only ran for maybe five or six weeks and were more about finding a cache of a specific type, D/T rating or whatever than finding lots of caches. Ones like the Road Trip in 2015, Mission GC in 2016 and Mary Hyde in 2017 come to mind; those were great fun. The last few promotions have all been spread out over six months or more (I think Wonders ran for two years) and it's hard to maintain any sort of interest in them over that long a time. It might have made sense to do that during the COVID lockdowns when caching opportunities were limited but that's now hopefully behind us. For this one, which is essentially just a rehash of last year's Reach the Peak and spread over twice the time, I'm not really paying any attention to it so if I get over the line well and good but if I don't it's no great loss.

Edited by barefootjeff
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I guess I am fortunate to have the opportunity to travel so getting the souvenirs for the current promotion has come without much effort. A few times I have hunted for caches of a specific type to get my points quicker but in the end it did not hurry things up much.  
 

Some of the promotions have not interested me much but I like Signal so this one is fine. Back when the 31 days of caching promotion came along, I was not paying attention to the promotions so I have several but not all of the 31 souvenirs.  If that one happened now I would certainly work to get all 31.
 

A personal goal over the past year was to have at least 10 caches per day on my calendar. Many times I had to travel 45 minutes or an hour to get them but my summer and winter quarters both have plenty of caches to go after.  I am glad I don’t live in a geocaching desert.

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I don't try for these things. I don't understand them, as I never research them, but every now and then I am told I have another crystal or something, Still don't understand this and actually don't care. Apparently I  have  1050 points. No idea how I earned them (except normal caching), or what happens with them. What is a  "Found a Signal's Labyrinth item"? It it something attached to some caches?

I have collected 76 gems. Is that it? Game, that I never knew I was playing, finished?

Edited by Goldenwattle
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7 hours ago, Exit8Jake said:

So, I would literally stop Geocaching all together for 2 months until the next round!

This really does the opposite of what it should do.

In the past I did things like that. I would not cache on a day if I knew it involved a souvenir, so as not to get it. Now I just ignore these things and get on with normal caching.

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I agree with most of what has been said above.

 

These souvenirs are really targeted for the casual cacher or new cacher to give a reward for getting out there. I suspect GS has data to back this up otherwise I'd be a little disappointed. It's a bit sad I think but they have a business to run and this type of marketing promotion someone thinks works even at the expense of their loyal customers.

 

For me I too noticed they caused me not to want to go out specially if it was a weekend before the reset. But then I decided that was dumb and I also did not care about them as I probably would get them regardless of what I did or didn't do. SO I try to not care.

 

The funny thing I see is all these promotions are time limited challenges that are against their own rules. At least with challenge caches you could do it on your own timeline or ignore them. Maybe a rethink of the reward systems is in order.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Goldenwattle said:

Now I just ignore these things and get on with normal caching.

 

3 hours ago, lee737 said:

I've said before that the souvenirs should have something in it for more experienced cachers (even though it appears they are used to attract newbies) - <snip>...... established players just aren't on the radar....

 

4 hours ago, GeoElmo6000 said:

I find caches when I feel like it and the souvenir promotions don't change my behavior.

 

7 hours ago, NanCycle said:

I have completely ignored the promotions (not events) for several years now.  

 

9 hours ago, Exit8Jake said:

How does everyone else feel? I can't be the only person who finishes each round really quickly and then waits.

 

The promos do seem to be focussed on the "newbies" rather than long time cachers.  There is a wide range, spanning 20 years + of cachers, experience, and global variations, and keeping everyone happy is nearly impossible!

 

Yes, we (hubby and I, in the hobby for 5 years and a few months now) do try to earn the souvenirs as they come up.  Our second year of geocaching, all of 2018 and a bit on either side, we did a streak of 404 days finding a cache, and pretty much cleared out our local area; now we are less likely to go for those FTF's  and "save" the local caches for promos if needed.  With 2 months to get to 500 points on the current Labyrinth promo, we've been fortunate to have traveled out of the area and able to find caches to reach the point totals we needed each period so far.  

 

Those in the game longer seem less enthusiastic about all the souvenir promos and more focussed on regional, state, and country souvenirs; if they happen to earn something in their "normal" cache outings, then it happens.  There was a "challenge" of sorts awhile back for one of the promos (I forget now which one!) to see if you could earn the souvenirs with your regular caching behavior - just cache as you normally would, make no special effort to find caches to meet the promo, and see if you earned souvenirs, and how long it took to do that.  It seems most of us that cached fairly regularly, without any specific effort, earned the souvenirs.

 

We haven't made any real push to earn these Labyrinth souvenirs, but the points have accumulated as we did whatever caching we would have done regardless of a promo or not, and we've gotten all the souvenirs so far.  A couple of camping and vacation outings in the next few months should get us the next one or two as well.  And if we don't get enough points, well, we don't.  We don't need the promos to get us out geocaching, we geocache because we enjoy it,  We do events because we like seeing familiar faces and meeting new friends.  The souvenirs are a bonus, if we get them, and no big deal if we don't.

 

If the promos get "newbies" more involved and out finding more caches, that's a good thing!  And that may be the whole idea...

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21 minutes ago, MNTA said:
3 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

If the promos get "newbies" more involved and out finding more caches, that's a good thing!  And that may be the whole idea...

 

100%

 

I'd have thought newbies would have had enough incentive anyway to go out and find caches, after all it's a new and fresh experience for them. My own highest find rate was in my first couple of years but after that, when all the local low-hanging fruit had been found, it got harder with a lot more travelling required and perhaps that's when the incentive is needed.

Edited by barefootjeff
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11 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

I'd have thought newbies would have had enough incentive anyway to go out and find caches, after all it's a new and fresh experience for them. My own highest find rate was in my first couple of years but after that, when all the local low-hanging fruit had been found, it got harder with a lot more travelling required and perhaps that's when the incentive is needed.

 

It's a different generation discovering the hobby these days - while what you said is true for those of us in our 50's, 60's, 70's (that we don't need any more incentive than simply finding the caches and the journey to get there is part of the whole experience), those that are just beginning, those "newbies" seem to need more of a reward than just a "find".  I'm not saying it's true for all, but I'm guessing the majority are looking for more and the souvenir promos seem to give them that little extra push to go out and keep finding more caches.

 

From my own experience, with our kids (now in their 30's) and grandkids, when we plan a getaway to the mountains for a few days (for example), they just want to get to the cabin, and THEN start the getaway.  Hubby and I, on the other hand, take 6-8 hours or more for the 2 hour drive to get there.  We stop in little towns to taste some wine, to shop, to geocache, and the day it takes to get there is PART of the getaway.  The kids' attitude is just different.  I think that can be applied to geocaching in general - for some of us , the find isn't the whole goal, it's the journey to get there too.  For others, the whole goal is the smilie and whatever souvenir and reward THAT brings.  HQ is playing to that audience.

 

YMMV

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3 hours ago, CAVinoGal said:

I think that can be applied to geocaching in general - for some of us , the find isn't the whole goal, it's the journey to get there too.  For others, the whole goal is the smilie and whatever souvenir and reward THAT brings.  HQ is playing to that audience.

 

This touches on something I was almost going to mention yesterday, that these promotions, particularly the find lots of caches ones, seem to be a disincentive to someone going out and doing those caches that are more about the journey than the smiley, those that might take half a day, a whole day or even several days to complete. Back when the promotions ran for shorter periods, I noticed a drop in activity on such caches while they were running. I remember one of them a few years back (was it Cache Carnival?), where you got maximum points by finding caches with 50+ FPs, none of my hides got a single find during that period, instead everyone was going down to Sydney to do the high FP caches in the tourist hotspots around the harbour.

 

On a similar vein, I've seen several people go hell-for-leather finding lots of caches, maybe for a streak or whatever, only to turn caching into a chore and burn themselves out of the game. One friend a few years back made it his goal to get to 1000 finds by his thirtieth birthday, which he just managed to achieve, but it took such a toll on his non-caching life that he dropped out of the game completely soon afterwards.

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Changing the subject a bit...
 
How would you design. a promotion that would be interesting to both the casual cacher and the experienced? Also to not disincentivize people from their normal caching.

- Find a cache in a new county?

- Find a T3 or higher cache traditional?

- Find a cache X miles from your home?

- Find multiple caches in a day

 

Seems to me nothing would work well. Personally what I liked early on that is no longer there for me is focus on maps my challenge caches show my interest there. Focus on the GPS features lat/lon is impossible to even search for any more. Using your compass maybe add tools to project courses or more letterbox type instructions. Rethinking challenge rules may be a start, can't tell you the number of logs on grandfathered or difficult challenges are from lackies, hmmm maybe listen to your own staff. Maybe more stats and web features or better milestones. Slicker websites. Just some ideas.

 

 

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I got the first quest via normal caching, without trying Then I missed the next one because Florida summers are unpleasantly hot and no souvenir was going to persuade me to ignore that.

 

What was the purpose of the gems in the Labyrinth? Just random extra points?

 

There wasn't much to this one to appeal to people who already find 100+ caches/year. With the Wonders of the World being randomly assigned but known in advance (unlike the random gems) there was some incentive to seek caches you might not have otherwise.

 

A bronze/silver/gold tiered souvenir system might appeal to more active cachers, but ultimately if you're a frequent cacher these souvenir incentives aren't really for you.

 

I would be curious to see a souvenir challenge where each cache had a calculated points value. Perhaps the average of the D & T ratings multiplied by the number of Favorite points? Tricky because it's using values that can change, and I'm neither sure how to handle that nor how to prevent people from gaming the score (ex: changing their 1.5/1.5 to a 5/5 to attract seekers during the challenge).

 

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5 hours ago, JL_HSTRE said:

With the Wonders of the World being randomly assigned but known in advance (unlike the random gems) there was some incentive to seek caches you might not have otherwise.

 

The Wonders (and its predecessor with the random assignments, Mystery at the Musuem) might have been okay in more cache-dense areas but for me the required caches were spread far and wide so they necessitated lots of travelling for what were often pretty mediocre hides. For Mystery at the Museum, I remember driving 70km north to where there was a cluster of caches with the fingerprint and footprint clues, only to find a rusted-up fake bolt on a sewer vent (which I managed to open with pliers from the toolkit in my car), a leaky mint tin with a wet log and a bison tube hanging in a rainwater drain in a suburban street. That was about the time I gave up on that promotion. For Wonders, because each one ran for so long, for the most part I didn't even bother seeking them out and just let them accumulate as part of my regular caching.

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13 hours ago, barefootjeff said:

The Wonders (and its predecessor with the random assignments, Mystery at the Musuem) might have been okay in more cache-dense areas but for me the required caches were spread far and wide so they necessitated lots of travelling for what were often pretty mediocre hides.

 

None of these programs are effective for areas with low numbers of caches.

 

I'm doubtful it's possible to effectively incentivize cache hiding through a promotion. Most people who were going to hide a cache were going to do so regardless. The people who have to be rewarded with a souvenir to hide a cache probably aren't going to be much better than Scout caches i.e. placed and forgotten. 

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