+Tripper Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by TrimblesTrek:If I ever got the inclination to hide a cache in a Provincial Park (unlikely, since I don't live near any and couldn't therefore maintain the cache adequately), I would most likely make it the final destination of a multi-cache (as Bullzie first suggested). The initial stage would likely be outside the park boundary. The only problem I could foresee with this type of cache would be the fact that the final destination would probably require an entrance fee. And, again, I would likely opt out of this type of cache anyway, since there are still a ton of places to hide a cache that don't require an entry fee. Another solution could be to use the parks for the *first* stages of a multi, and hide the final outside the park boundary, but nearby. This way, you could collect info from inside the park (lots of trail signs and stuff to get info from), use the info you gather at the first stages to get the coords for the final, which is outside the park. TrimblesTrek But but but... INSIDE the park: A multi-waypoint cache starting outside the park and finally landing inside the park would not work. In order to enforce their (yet undeveloped) policy on geocaching, Parks Ontario staff will have to purchase a GPSr. Once they have a GPSr they will eventually tackle all geocaches in their area (and why not? it would be fun). Then what would the (yet undeveloped) policy say in terms of punishment and/or fines to the cache owner? OUTSIDE the park: A multi-waypoint cache starting inside the park and finally landing outside the park would not work either (or at least not as often as we would like). Most of the time, if the cache were to land outside the park it would then be on private property (not all provincial parks border on crown land). And as we all know, that would be breaking the rules (unless you had permission of course). (grin) On the other hand, if the park does borders on land that is NOT private property it would inevitably put us back into Conservation Areas, Wildlife Perservation Areas, Crown Land, National Parks, Municipal Parks,... Which would work for now. BUT should a policy on geocaching be developed by Parks Ontario, which one of these remaining groups do you think will take the time to develop their OWN unique policy on geocaching. Hmmm... I vote that they all take the easy road and follow suit. The question remains, will this suit 'suit' the geocaching community? Right now I have few answers and many questions. And yes, I wish 'hiding' and 'keeping quiet' offered more than a temporary solution (and hell, it may still work in the enormous northern parks that just can not be patrolled like so many of the smaller southern Ontario parks). Shhh, Tripper & fam. (PS: Hi again, Parks Ontario staff guy reading this discussion.) Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jomarac5:"...I must agree with one point from bystander however, that there are some who act like they have been elected spokesman for this activity -- i.e., Cache Canucks with 9 finds in a year, you really are a very active participant aren't you? You should know that just because you make more than 500 forum posts in that same year doesn't make you an expert on caching -- it makes you a bag of hot air -- and that makes you a good candidate for a government job. Sorry, but I'm getting tired of your holier-than-thou attitude in these forums whenever someone expresses an opinion that you don't agree with..." Frankly, I'm not concerned in the least about what you're 'tired of'. These forums are chock-a-block full of discussions among people with differing opinions, the catalyst for which is often one person taking issue with a point being made by another. If you don't agree with some of the comments that I - or anyone else - may make (or 'how' they're made), oh well, that's life ...you're always free to offer up your own thoughts in response (as we *all* are - regardless of our cache counts). However, if you honestly feel that something has been said which warrants censure on the part of the site admins, just click on the little '!' Report-This-Post icon located in the lower righthand corner of each post - that's what it's there for. The good folks at Groundspeak are a rather level-headed bunch who's judgement can be respected, and I'm sure that if they satisfy themselves that someone has indeed 'crossed the line', they'll be quick to give that person a tap on the shoulder ...but don't expect them to grind any axes for you. Quote Link to comment
+TrimblesTrek Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Sheesh... let's just ignore the post above shall we?! quote:Originally posted by Tripper: But but but... Tripper.... WHAT IF... The guy assigned to check out the caches near the parks, (to make sure they aren't placed on *hallowed ground*) winds up liking geocaching! Then he's on our side and will probably keep quiet about the whole thing! I think I'll apply for the job! I think having the final outside the park may work just fine... surely we could plop the final under a bridge or something... Staying on topic, TrimblesTrek Quote Link to comment
Jomarac5 Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 quote: TrimblesTrek wrote:Sheesh... let's just ignore the post above shall we?! I tried... I really did. quote: I wrote:Sorry, but I'm getting tired of your holier-than-thou attitude... quote: Then Cache Canucks wrote: Frankly, I'm not concerned in the least about what you're 'tired of'... Typical response from someone who spends excessive amounts of time yammering on the forums rather than learning about what this activity is really about by actually doing it, and then has the audacity to come off as an authority and speak on behalf of others. Besides a lot of windy words, you really haven't contributed a whole lot, have you? Nuff said about this. Either you get it or you don't. ----- Back to the topic... I think the real issue here is that these parks belong to us. Should we really have to sneak around and come up with covert methods of hiding caches in areas that we have every right as citizens to access. It's our land. As I've mentioned previously, we should keep the government agencies out of this as long as possible. I believe it's inevitable that they will eventually find out about this activity but until then, if we keep placing caches responsibly and monitor their impact on the environment (moving the location when necessary), continue caching in and trashing out, and continue to participate in other benificial ways (like getting Scouts, Guides, and other youth groups involved) it will be much easier to argue the positive aspects of caching. I think the key here is to cache responsibly, and to build up an arsenal of caching-positive attributes that can be used when the time is necessary to speak out against these government controls. Collectively, we can make a difference. ***** Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted June 17, 2003 Author Share Posted June 17, 2003 I am now glad to see more positive input on some solutions on how we can over come what ever policy that the Parks staff come up with. I think virtuals caches would be the safest bet as you don't have to maintain them and we are not leaving anything in the park, but using park information for a multi outside could work also. The other positive I read is about involving other groups like Scouts etc, I have introduced 3 Scout Troops to geocaching and how to use a gps. Last time I checked most water ways are still free land to travel.And it seems around here lately going up a creek without a paddle is getting easier by the post. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
BullZie Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Acutally, after reading some of the potential places and seeing 'crown land' listed...has anyone had any issues hiding caches there? There is a whole WHACK of crown land in the northern vicinity of my hometown of Sault Ste. Marie that would be prime for placing caches. I can say that I never even thought of putting one there until now. Now, here is where my plan may be full of holes...does the MNR manage the crown land in its province, or is it actually maintained by a federal agency? Or does the term 'crown land' not indicate that it is federally managed? I know the signs I have seen posted for it maintain that public use of the crown land is granted to any citizen or permanent resident of Canada otherwise a fee is due (but not sure to who). Glad to see that the thread has veered back on track. Bullzie Quote Link to comment
Cache Canucks Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Jomarac5:"...Besides a lot of windy words, you really haven't contributed a whole lot, have you?..." Gee, I dunno, GeoCaching.com officially adopted a designated FRS channel a few months back ...in large part, the result of a proposal/poll that I intiated here in the 'Canada' forums (which then led directly to several 'General' forum follow-up polls on the same issue). You'll also notice a new item hitting the Groundspeak store shelves in the coming weeks ...a subdued version of the GeoCaching.com cloth logo patch (also the result of a proposal/poll that I initiated). Of course, to keep things on-topic with the business at hand, there was the idea of using virtual caches in Ontario parks as a possible 'work around' (look back earlier in this thread before the 'unpleasantness', I was the one who originally floated that one in this particular discussion). That idea seems to have been fairly well received also. No, I think I'm doing pretty well in the ol' contribution department as a whole ...thanks for trying to keep score though. (My last post in this thread) Quote Link to comment
+TrimblesTrek Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Cache Canucks:(My last post in this thread) Thank God. TrimblesTrek Quote Link to comment
white_owl Posted June 18, 2003 Share Posted June 18, 2003 I can't blame Bystander for wanting to be anonymous. Contradicting views tend to get flamed. I have been watching this thread for some time with great interest but have refrained from expressing my views for this reason. However, now I choose to speak up. This issue was bound to come to the attention of the authorities sooner or later. How it started is irrelevant. As DonnaG pointed out, it is better that we addressed this now from the ground up rather that have a "suit" in Queens Park take the easy solution and ban Geocaches in Provincial Parks altogether. There seems to be a basic point that is being missed here. When approaching a government agency (or organization, or company, or individual), simply saying "I want ..." will not yield any results. You have to show them that Geocaching is beneficial to them. The following points (some of which have been brought up here already) have to be made: 1) Geocaching will bring extra revenue to the parks. My wife and I were planning a 5 day trip to a Provincial Park this summer to do some camping, canoeing, hiking and Geocaching. But with what's been happening, we've made other plans since we don't know if the caches will still be there when we go. 2) Participants are mostly naturalists pre-dating Geocaching. This is what drew us to this activity in the first place. As a result, we have a healthy respect for nature and wouldn't do anything to damage the environment. We only need to be pointed away from sensitive areas. 3) CITO. This is related to point # 2. I, for one, have been doing this since long before the first GPS satellite was launched. I'm sure that many others here will agree. Why, in general, is Geocaching a good activity? 1) Geocaching is healthy. Anything that sends you out on a good brisk hike is good for you. 2) Many families Geocache as a group spending quality time together. 3) Geocaching teaches and hones basic orienteering skills. In the long run, this means one less hunter or hiker or child lost in the woods. 4) After the purchase of the GPS, it is relatively inexpensive. Writing to the Premier is not a good idea. He has a lot of bigger fish to fry. Our route should be through the Minister of Natural Resources or one of his deputies charged with this responsibility. Writing to your local MPP may also be a good option. Perhaps drafting a standard letter would be a good idea. The letter written by gm100guy to the Premier is of poor quality. I don't feel that gm100guy is the right person to lead this crusade. I won't go into reasons why I feel this. If you agree with me, you will understand. If you don't you will only flame me (which will support my point.) One final fine point. The Provincial Parks Act (1990) section 15. (1) states "Any lost, mislaid or abandoned property ... is the property of the Crown." The key word here is "abandoned". Caches are not abandoned, they are placed there for others to find. The cache owner maintains it either by physically visiting it or by relying on other cachers to report any anomalies. Brought up at the right time, with the proper diplomacy, this point can carry a lot of weight. Quote Link to comment
+canadazuuk Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 The difference between reality, and the soap opera that geocaching.com forums sometimes become, is that with reality, you actually have an outside world that doesn't neccessarily share your enthusiasm for boxes or gatorade bottles hidden in a park (and the talk, ad nauseum, about these hides) I'm with cache canucks Quote Link to comment
+fizbot Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Let's work on how we can secure park space for Geocaching rather than criticize those before us. Quote Link to comment
+canadazuuk Posted June 19, 2003 Share Posted June 19, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Fizbot:If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. It's nice to know what the choices are at least. 'If you aren't for me, you are against me.' That's kinda like what special interest groups preach. Everyone has a worldview. I trust 'operation science'; 'origin science' belongs in the philosophy department. (The Humanist Religion) And what has this to do with caching? Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted June 20, 2003 Author Share Posted June 20, 2003 Hi all, I have another stat for some of you to consider when you look my found count as experience and time around here. Of the 1072 caches in Ontario my second cache I placed is number 23 and the first one I placed that I archived was number 20. That was way back in May 2001 when geocaching was an infant. I do need to hunt more but with my job and my wife's job finding time is hard I also do alot of work with scouting on weekends. quote: One final fine point. The Provincial Parks Act (1990) section 15. (1) states "Any lost, mislaid or abandoned property ... is the property of the Crown." The key word here is "abandoned". Caches are not abandoned, they are placed there for others to find. The cache owner maintains it either by physically visiting it or by relying on other cachers to report any anomalies. Brought up at the right time, with the proper diplomacy, this point can carry a lot of weight We have asked the parks staff about that and they view a cache as abandoned property. To white_owl if you wish to take over and lead us on jump right up to the front of the line and present your plan of action to the rest of us. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage [This message was edited by gm100guy on June 20, 2003 at 06:16 PM.] Quote Link to comment
white_owl Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 quote:To white_owl if you wish to take over and lead us on jump right up to the front of the line and present your plan of action to the rest of us. I'm sorry if I offended you but this is my opinion. I don't want to take over the lead and my intention was not to try to usurp you. But perhaps I could assist you. The point about 'abandoned' is a good example. As I have mentioned, such a point must be brought up at the right time. Imagine that this issue finds it's way to the courts. The government always views any actions that they take in this light since it is a real possibility. The definition of abandoned is leaving something without having the intention to return to it. If the government goes to court and claims that the cache is 'abandoned property', they would loose that point regardless of the opinion of the park officials. A fine point but an important one. That is the art of negotiation. Park officials, from the minister to the summer student, are only trying to do their jobs. How do we show them that their jobs are made easier with the presence of Geocachers? What problems would Geocaching present in Provincial Parks and how can we offer solutions? Someone mentioned that in Florida, parks welcome Geocachers even having special log books for them to sign at the front gate. Contact them to find out what benefits they enjoy from the sport. And what problems so that we may find solutions. Anyway, I have kept quiet since this started and this will probably be my last post in this thread. If you care to contact me by e-mail to work on solutions, please feel free to do so. My best White Owl p.s. One point that I didn't agree with Bystander on is the stats. Even someone with a low number of finds can have something productive to offer. Quote Link to comment
+Shawn&Holly Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Just wondering if anyone has noticed what happened with caches in state parks in Arkensaw? Hope that is the example that is set. Free permits with 1 year renewal and cache container to be approved by the park warden, as in must be latchable in someway or difficult for the local wildlife to pop it open. Removal or relocation only if damage to the location is noticed. There is a thread in the general forum, having a difficult time finding it with lynx browser I am running. Car37 & Shnde Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted June 28, 2003 Author Share Posted June 28, 2003 I received an answer from the Premire this week. He thanked me for bring my concerns to his attention and he will take my comments into consideration. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
gm100guy Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 general forums Someone has started this thread in the general forums about parks. For you information and comments on what they say about policy coming out. gm100guy http://members.rogers.com/gm100guy/cachepage.htm Ontario geocachers http://groups.msn.com/GeocachinginOntario/homepage Quote Link to comment
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